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Israel Vs Palestine......my View  
User currently offlineJm-airbus320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 422 times:

I just saw on BBC world, footage of Israeli soldiers terrorising a Palestinian man and were about to shoot him for back talking. I think the presence of the film crew saved him. Also, a 12yr old and her mom were blown up by an Israeli rocket as they fed sheep. The girl's 17 yr old sister vowed to be a suicide bomber to avenge her death.
Now with incidents like this occuring on a daily basis, I think its safe to say that this war will never end. Palestinians kill Israeli's, they return the favour. Both states are run by apparent blood loving men who have no sympathy for anyone. It's sickening that these men sit in their offices while they send idiots to go do their dirty work. I hope one day both of them will be tried for war crimes(seems as if that's the rage nowadays) as they are certainly responsible for the death of too many innocent people.

Jm-airbus320

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClipperhawaii From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 398 times:

Interesting people in the Middle East are there not?
It is too bad the rest of the world has to suffer for their hatred of one another.
ClipperH


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 393 times:

Jm-airbus320,

I agree with everything you've said. Both sides are cruel and see death of other humans as a mere political tool that they can use to further their goals. Their goals are largely to convince the rest of the world that their side is right.

I have to add to your post to say that I am personally burdened by the fact that part of every paycheck I earn is sent to Israel to kill Palestinians. As far as I know I have subsidized none of the murders of the 300 or so Israelis that have been killed in the last 18 months, while probably all of the 1200+ Palestinian deaths at the hands of the Israelis are financed by the dollars I involuntarily send to Israel.

Neither side in this conflict deserves support from anyone.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineLY744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 387 times:

"As far as I know I have subsidized none of the murders of the 300 or so Israelis that have been killed in the last 18 months"

Think again. Guess who is paying 98% of the annual international support to the PA? I'll give you a hint, it's not the Arab states.

LY744.


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 383 times:

I used to have sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I grew up believing that they deserved their own homeland, that in some way, history had robbed them of statehood and dignity. Then, on September 11th, I saw footage of a group of Palestinian women and children, chanting and dancing in the streets of Ramallah, at news that th US had been attacked. My view has hardened since that terrible day. It makes me sad and angry that the US government didn't respond to a threat with sufficient aptitude and did not take some steps to possibly prevent the attack. I also believe that US foreign policy abroad has at times been short-sighted, inappropriate, and not well thought out, but the viciousness of the attacks, on innocent civilians, cannot be condoned, cannot be excused, or explained away in the context of a centuries old hatred between Arab and Jew. My symphathy for the palestinian cause is now gone. While I blame both Israel and the Palestinians for the senseless violence that is an element of daily life in the region, I am also filled with sorrow and a strong sense of ambivalence and bitter hatred. It is a shame that a worthless scrap of land, mostly desert, is a root cause of the fear, anger, violence, and uncertainty that prevails in our world today. I am also grateful and proud to live in a modern, secular society, where progress, even if it is at times slow and clumsy, is the norm and where resistance to it is typically defined in the scope of intellectual discourse, not in random acts of senseless violence, in the name of a god. To me, such a response is hatred-filled, unacceptable, primitive, and beneath me.

So as the struggle goes on in the Holy Land, I can only shrug my shoulders and focus on my own survival. But I firmly believe that democracy, a strong belief in fate, and a rational intellect, will prevail.





User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 381 times:

LY744,

I thought mostly Europe was paying the Palestinians. Are you implying that America is financing both Israel and the Palestinians? If so that makes my position as an involuntary war financier even more ridiculous.

European Union countries have been the biggest financial backers of the Palestinian Authority
---CNN INTERNATIONAL, Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE 12:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, May 23, 2002

the EU has emerged as the strongest champion and chief financial supporter of the Palestinian Authority
---The Washington Post, May 22, 2002

I am aware that a small aid package to the Palestinians was proposed by the Bush White House: did this get finalized? In any event, what exactly are you trying to say, LY744?

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineClipperhawaii From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 372 times:

You are right RogueTrader...if your looking at a major money trail...it leads right to the heart of Europe. Also if you mention anti-semitism to a European, they hit the roof. One thing for sure though, the middle East is no more closer to peace than...well, I will leave it at that! No sense enraging a few old souls here.
ClipperH


User currently offlineKolobokman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 369 times:

Both sides are commiting attrocities there.
It is good to see that BBC shows its viwers both sides of the conflict.
What about CNN and other US news broadcastig systems? Do you see Palestinian side there?


User currently offlineYyz717 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 366 times:

Both sides are indeed committing attrocities. But you have to remember that Israel offered peace to the PLO a few years ago...the PLO walked away at the last minute insisting on a 'right of return' by Palestinians to Israel proper. This would have swamped Israel with refugees.

Israel is also a democracy. The PLO is a brutal dictatorship.

Israel is acting no differently than any other Western nation would be if surrounded by enemies and outnumbered 50-1.

At any rate.....Rogue....if you disagree with your US govt supporting Israel, they are only doing it thru the acquiescence of the voting public, which includes you. You are free (as is any American) to influence the political decisions made by your local Congressman/woman and Senator. Sounds like you haven't tried this approach. Until you do, your inaction will only ensure that the US govt continues to support Israel at all costs.

Neil


User currently offlineHepkat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 360 times:

if you disagree with your US govt supporting Israel, they are only doing it thru the acquiescence of the voting public

I'm afraid the U.S. citizen has no choice, as both political parties overwhelming support aid to Israel as a consequence of the Jewish lobby. Thanks to an influential minority, the American citizen is being held hostage to a religious ideology he/she has no part in.


User currently offlineYyz717 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 357 times:

I agree with you Hepkat. Perhaps the correct approach is for Americans interested in an equal approach to the ME could lobby both the DEM's and GOP's in an equal manner. It would take some coordination, but anything is possible in a democracy.

While I generally am a suppporter of Israel, I agree that the Israeli lobby/influence in US govt circles to be far too strong. The American people CAN change this though.



User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 351 times:

Yyz717,

I do try to contact my Congress people on issues that are important to me. I contact them about 3 or 4 times a year. They say 'thank you' and promptly file my views in the trash, I'm sure. Believe it or not, I think that internet discussions like this further my opinions - as I believe that the frank disucssion among adults brings out the truth, and the truth is what I want revealed.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 331 times:

the American citizen is being held hostage to a religious ideology he/she has no part in.

If you think that US aid to Israel is simply the result of some "religious ideology" most Americans don't ascribe to, haha, well then its no wonder your confused and frustrated.

Hint: It's just a tad more then that. You would like Israel to be insignificant and nothing. Fine, Israelis would too. They don't enjoy the coverage and the high standard they're held up too. But the US support of Israel and the western world's fascination with the conflict is rooted in something much more significant.

Theres a reason every American is familar with a place like the Sea of Gallilee-even though most states have lakes much larger. And its not because of US foreign aide.

What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views. When looked that way, yes Israel becomes one of the most significant countries and news stories in the west and places like Nigeria, Sudan, and China become so small.

Think a little bit, before you rattle off your tongue Israel this, Israel that.

Oh, yeah and lastly, the US has given more money to the Palestinian Authority over 9 years than any other country in the world, ever. (The Economist: World Factbook 2001).

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose.

TNNH


User currently offlineHepkat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 329 times:

Perhaps the correct approach is for Americans interested in an equal approach to the ME could lobby both the DEM's and GOP's in an equal manner.

This is precisely the problem. Very few groups can match the Jewish lobby in terms of influence and affluence. Perhaps the only few are the NRA, which has other interests at hand, the religious right, who sides squarely with Israel (for religious purposes), and business/industrial lobbyists, who are too busy pushing forward their own concerns to really care.

What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views.

And that's precisely what's called an ideology. Thanks for expounding my point.

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose.

Oh my, the proverbial pot calling the kettle black! Compared to you I can hardly be considered a kid, kid.


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 294 times:

Hepkat, you reason like a terrorist. Shame on you.

True, the US needs to adopt a more balanced approach to the Middle East and play a little more fair with both sides, but the Jewish lobby in the US is only as powerful as that of any other group (e.g. Cuban-American, African-American, etc....) it is precisely that diversity that makes this country great and a refreshing alternative to the dozens of autocratic and illegitimate regimes that control the Middle East.



User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 290 times:

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose

If that were true, Twaneedsnohelp, you would have 'lost' long ago. Your favorite tactic is to accuse others of posting 'false' facts, but when you are proven false yourself - which you always are - you, strangely, never respond. I'll spare us the review of the times I alone have had to prove false your accusations, but I have them available if you like...


I can't find any publication on the list of Economist publications titled 'The Economist: World Factbook 2001'

http://store.eiu.com/index.asp?layout=quick_search&search=fact+book&av_filter=&search_type=products&search_cmd=&searchType=all

Nor is something called 'The Economist: World Factbook 2001' mentioned in any major newspaper, magazine, or news broadcast in the last 20 years, as reported by LEXIS/NEXIS. see www.lexis.com

I did of course find numerous references to the truth, such as:

Israel, the largest recipient of US foreign aid,
The Sunday Herald, May 12, 2002 Pg. 17 (Scotland)

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid...
Knight Ridder Washington Bureau, May 7, 2002

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid
Agence France Presse, May 2, 2002

[Israel receives] the largest slice of US overseas aid
The Times (London), April 23, 2002


If the US had given as you say more money to the Palestinian Authority over 9 years than any other country in the world, ever that would have been more money than Israel received in that time ($27 billion), and more than Israel has received in total ($70 billion plus), right? Where did all that money go? $27 billion doesn't buy more than a few guns and explosives these days?

The truth is of course that Israel has taken more from the US treasury than any other country in the history of the world except of course the United States. The benefits of having Israel as a 'friend' are negligible: note that the entire rest of the world doesn't need their deadly 'friendship'.

America pays for the killing of Palestinians almost every day. In return for this America has bought the hatred of the entire Middle East and turned itself into a terrorist target both at home and abroad.

kind regards,

RogueTrader



User currently offlineAvi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 286 times:

Jm- I just saw on BBC world, footage of Israeli soldiers terrorising a Palestinian man and were about to shoot him for back talking. I think the presence of the film crew saved him. Also, a 12yr old and her mom were blown up by an Israeli rocket as they fed sheep. The girl's 17 yr old sister vowed to be a suicide bomber to avenge her death.

Did they show what happened in Israel too that day or wasn’t it important?


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 281 times:

Avi,

Your concern about media stories proves my earlier post that both sides use murder as a political weapon largely to gain the favor of world opinion. The actual people killed mean nothing to you.

You have no argument that the Israel side was right to kill the Palestinians, you just are concerned what your press coverage is.

Based on the numbers of casualties, there should be 3 or 4 such stories showing murdered Palestinians for every one showing murdered Israelis.

Avi, on a slightly different topic, what friends in the world community does Israel have besides the USA? Turkey? Some outlaw African nations? Please advise.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 279 times:

Yyz717 - If the Jews have a 'right of return' to Israel, why shouldn't the Palestinians - especially bearing in mind that it was their property that the Jews stole when they were carrying out their ethnic cleansing!

Hepkat - I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. How can a country call itself a democracy when in reality it is controlled not by its citizens but rather by 'special interest' lobby groups? That just makes it look like democracy is for sale!

TWAneedsnohelp - you said: What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views. When looked that way, yes Israel becomes one of the most significant countries and news stories in the west and places like Nigeria, Sudan, and China become so small.

Would you mind terribly explaining what you meant (in English) as I don't understand it? Thanks!


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 275 times:

SAS23,

The USA is still a democracy insofar as its people do in fact elect their leaders. Its just that once they are elected, few people pay close attention to what they do anymore except the special interest groups. Part of the explanation is that for Americans government is not nearly as important as to Europeans or anyone else in the world. Government plays almost no role in our lives on a day to day basis, its not nearly the concern that it is for others in the world. I'm not defending this situation, just explaining it. I base this opinion on my observations of public conversations in Europe vs. the same in the USA.

Now as to what TWA was trying to say, I THINK he was trying to say that Israel has some special place in the heart of the world and especially in the hearts of its sole benefactor, the Americans. But, on the other hand I'm not entirely sure if thats what he meant.

kind regards,

RogueTrader



User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 256 times:

For those anti-Palestinian because they were cheering after September 11th, you should think about the anti-globilasation protestors who started cheering in London after they heard the world trade centre was hit.

User currently offlineHepkat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 255 times:

Hepkat, you reason like a terrorist. Shame on you.

ContinentalEWR, please explain. If you meant that I refuse to swallow whatever the U.S. media and school system spoonfeeds me, then I'm proud to be an independent thinker and researcher. How sad it is, that everyone who does not run around agreeing with the status quo, and with Bush's black and white world, gets labelled terrorist. Do you even know what a terrorist is?


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 247 times:

I seem to recall that the footage of the "Palestinian protestors" cheering following the attacks of the 11th September turned out to date back to the Gulf War ... and that they had originated from Israeli sources!

Remarkably convenient timing if true ... they must have been psychic!  Big grin