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New Hawaii Gov. To Combat "Birthers"  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8290 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Oh for crying out loud - instead of letting them continue to make idiots of themselves, new Governor Neil Abercrombie is going to preside over a resurgence in the "birther" movement by trying to release more information about Obama's birth here in the Aloha state. What is he thinking? Massive budget shortfalls for 2011, a failed rail transit vision, chronic homelessness and a broken state education system are just a few of the things on his plate. Craziness.

I would also like to know how they are going to release records for one guy when state law clearly defines such records as private. The last Republican administration already passed a law to allow the state health department to ignore frivolous record requests from "birther" morons that were tying up their personnel.

Neil Abercrombie, who was a friend of Obama’s parents when the president was a baby, has only been governor of Hawaii for less than three weeks, but he’s said in interviews this week that he’s already initiated a process to make policy changes that would allow Hawaii to release additional evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

“What bothers me is that some people who should know better are trying to use this for political reasons"


Uhm yeah, like maybe trying to regain some of the earmark money Hawaii is losing? Get real Neil.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46797.html


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Well him, Palin and the nut job Govener from AZ, we not dipping into a gene pool with much depth.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20353 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

The problem is that for a conspiracy theory, ANYTHING that doesn't fit with the theory is "part of the conspiracy."

There is NO EVIDENCE EVER THAT CAN EVER BE PRESENTED that will convince a true "Birther." You will be more likely to convince the Pope to be an atheist. They can even go so far as to say that Obama was switched for another Black kid who was genuinely born in Hawaii. And you can't prove that never happened, as absurd as the claim is and even though the burden of proof falls to the claimant.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

So, the previous REPUBLICAN governer allowed how many copies of the birth certificate to be authinticated even before Obama was the official nominee? Why didn't anyone make a huge noise like this back then?


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
The problem is that for a conspiracy theory, ANYTHING that doesn't fit with the theory is "part of the conspiracy."

Absolutely correct.

But, let me add my own conspiracy to this conspiracy:

Don't you think it's to the Democrats' advantage to keep the Birthers 'alive'. Everytime one of them opens their mouths it sets back Conservatives. Could this just be a poke at the dying embers to make sure the fire is still there? I'm just saying (or writing, as the case may be).



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8290 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):

Don't you think it's to the Democrats' advantage to keep the Birthers 'alive'.

Whoa that was quick...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.

What is unprovable about documents that have been verified by state officials and the two term ex-Republican governor? Would really love to know.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

This is ridiculous. And these people are all conspiracy theorists. To them, lack of evidence is evidence, since it's obviously being covered up. No amount of logic can dissuade them.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Bring it on, Governor. Prove the unprovable.

What is unprovable about documents that have been verified by state officials and the two term ex-Republican governor? Would really love to know.

Not quite sure how that line is attributed to me. I have no issue with Obama's birth location.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

If the President had been born in Kansas vs. 'exotic' and then new state of Hawaii', I bet there would be none of this 'birther' nonsense in the first place.

You have millions of persons who are so racist, so anti-Islamic (especially in the post-9/11 era), so against anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan, would gain personally by any Republican as President (lower taxes, massive cuts in spending on the middle class entitlements, government care of the poor), that they want to discredit or at least take down the President in some stupid 'gotcha' way.

Perhaps the Governor of Hawaii will have to ask for written permission, perhaps even an Executive Order, to put out the most original record to be published on the front page of the biggest newspaper in the State and finally end all this BS. Then Democrats should call for a like publication of the full State birth records of top Republican potential candidates like Sara Palin just to give her a hard time and call the radical right's bluff.


User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
You have millions of persons who are so racist, so anti-Islamic (especially in the post-9/11 era), so against anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan, would gain personally by any Republican as President (lower taxes, massive cuts in spending on the middle class entitlements, government care of the poor), that they want to discredit or at least take down the President in some stupid 'gotcha' way.

How original, the race card, let's just throw that trump card out there! Because everyone that wants Pres. Obama out, is racist, right? Everyone that wants to challange where he was born, no matter how stupid we all think this issue is, is only doing it because of race, right? Explain to me the difference in what "the Birthers" or whatever these idiots call themselves are doing any different from what all the Dems did and said, during the the Bush Administration? It is low blow "Gotcha Politics"! WHAT EVER WE CAN DO TO KNOCK THE OTHER GUY DOWN! The only difference is Pres. Obama is black, so he get's protected by the race card, right?

US Politics are not about improving the country and helping the people, it is "do whatever I can to stay in office, and make the opposition look bad".Both sides are guilty of this behavior. Politicians in the US have become a lower life form, than car salesmen.

As for this new Gov of HI, I hope he can end this silliness, so we don't have to hear it anymore; at least until the next "Gotcha" scandal comes to life.
Stay Safe!


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 10):
US Politics are not about improving the country and helping the people, it is "do whatever I can to stay in office, and make the opposition look bad".Both sides are guilty of this behavior. Politicians in the US have become a lower life form, than car salesmen.


Sadly this assessment can be applied to so many other countries, including my own.

But the rest of your post leaves me a bit confused. Perhaps you can clear things up for me. Was Bush challenged on the basis of where he was born?

I think it is probably fair to say that opposition to Obama is based on (in no particular order):
he's not a Republican;
he wasn't born in mainland USA and spent a lot of his childhood overseas;
somewhere along the line one of his paternal ancestors may have been a Muslim;
he seems able to quote form the Quran as easily as some can quote from the Bible;
he (despite having a white mother) is not considered white; and
he hasn't delivered what he promised.

That he may prove to be an ineffective President may be justification for his not being re-nominated/ re-elected. But that isn't the basis for the Birthers' challenge.


User currently offlinejetBlueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3502 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I'm sick of hearing about this crap. Do I like the guy? No. Do I wish someone else was president? Yes. But he is president and will be president until Jan 2013 and people just need to accept it.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

I don't really care, but to those who seem upset by this latest, are you equally upset about Wikileaks? Wouldn't this be considered "transparency".

User currently offlinejetBlueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3492 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I don't really care, but to those who seem upset by this latest, are you equally upset about Wikileaks? Wouldn't this be considered "transparency".

You could very well call it transparency. But I think both Wikileaks and the Birthers should just be quiet.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

If I were the President I would have been on the phone to the governor asking him "What the hell are you doing?"

User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
There is NO EVIDENCE EVER THAT CAN EVER BE PRESENTED that will convince a true "Birther."

Sure there is. A long form birth certificate. Not a COLB.

As has already been established in our many arguments on this forum, the Certificate of Live Birth verifies nothing; in 1961, there were 3 ways to obtain the short-form COLB. Anyone having “knowledge of a birth” could send a mail form in and get it; a parent of knowledgeable adult could file for a “delayed certificate” up to a year afterwards; or for children for whom no delayed cert was requested could obtain a document called a ‘certificate of Hawaiian birth.” HI often issues, to this day and certainly in 1961, frequent COLBs to families of children born overseas. Not uncommon but not a verifying document.

We’ve seen the original long from birth certificate from a Susan Nordyke, born in the same hospital a day after Obama, so we know those records exist and were/are filed together originally.

Now, as many have said, the COLB could be based on the long form birth certificate of Obama’s, but since he won’t release it, we don’t know! It’s not the vast radical conspiracy of some fringe kook element, but the steady conviction of wanting what we, as American citizens, believe is the right thing to do. And now Chris Matthews is now getting in the act, wanting Obama to release it too. Surprising, since he still has the tingle up his leg and all.

Hey, it’s simple—just release it, Barry. Along with your college records and all the mysterious documents that don’t exist that the media doesn’t seem to even care about. We know more about third world dictators than we do about Obama. Personally, he’s in, he was elected, and I shudder to think of the constitutional and practical crisis that would occur if it were ever clarified that he weren’t eligible, but I still would like to see it.


User currently offlinejetBlueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3430 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
Perhaps the Governor of Hawaii will have to ask for written permission, perhaps even an Executive Order, to put out the most original record to be published on the front page of the biggest newspaper in the State and finally end all this BS.

I could be mistaken, but my minimal research on this topic indicates that all of the documents Governor Abercrombie wants to release could be released today (without any action whatsoever on the governor's part) if Barack Obama were to give permission. My understanding, which could very well be wrong, is that current Hawaii law requires the consent of someone with an interest in the matter to release original long-form birth certificates (and related documents). So what Abercrombie wants to release could be released within the hour if Obama gave the O.K. and that would require no change to existing laws. Assuming these are facts about current Hawaii law, either Obama doesn't want to authorize the release of the long-form birth certificate, doesn't have the time to do it, or doesn't realize that he has the authority to do it. There may be other reasons why he hasn't done so to date, but those are the three reasons I can come up with.

(By the way, the widely circulated official document that documents Obama's birth is the short-form "Certificate of Live Birth" which contains less information than the long-form birth certificate, at least from what I understand.)

My own hunch is that Obama doesn't want the original long-form birth certificate released. I could imagine two reasons why this would be the case: 1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers." 2) There is something else in the birth certificate quite apart from the location of Obama's birth that might be embarrassing to the president. What that could be is anybody's guess, but one way to end the speculation is to release the birth certificate unless, as I say, the reason for keeping it private is to keep the "birthers" around as a convenient foil.


User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

Article 2, Section 1 of the United States Constitution states that:

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

What "natural born Citizen" means is not clearly defined in the Constitution and has been debated since the Constitution was adopted.

According to the website constitution.net:

"The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps. The Constitution authorizes the Congress to do create clarifying legislation in Section 5 of the 14th Amendment; the Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, also allows the Congress to create law regarding naturalization, which includes citizenship.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

* Anyone born inside the United States *
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S."

Source: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html

As some a.netters may remember, a small handful of people filed court challenges to John McCain's presidential candidacy in 2008 because McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Here is what constitution.net say about that:

"In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person." Not everyone agrees that this section includes McCain — but absent a court ruling either way, we must presume citizenship."

Source: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3401 times:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 19):
Article 2, Section 1 of the United States Constitution states that:

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;
Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
I have a citizenship question. If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

There is the issue of the definition of 'natural-born' and while it has been an issue many times, it has varied over time and never fully settled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen


User currently offlinejetBlueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Alright thanks for the responses. It seems that even if he was born in another country (which he was not) he is still eligible for the presidency because of his American mother. I thought thats what it was but wasn't sure.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
the Certificate of Live Birth verifies nothing

Except that you were born in the place that it said you were born.

This is seriously the dumbest argument. This is the kind of argument that people repeat and repeat and repeat until hopefully someone thinks that because they've heard it so many times, it must be true.

The Certificate of Live Birth is what the U.S. Passport Office uses to determine your birthplace. It damn sure is therefore good enough for you.

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 17):
If you are born outside the United States to a parent(s) that are American doesn't that make you a full United States citizen any way because your parents are citizens?

Yes. Evidence: John McCain, who was ACTUALLY born outside the United States.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8290 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 21):
It seems that even if he was born in another country (which he was not) he is still eligible for the presidency because of his American mother. I thought thats what it was but wasn't sure.

Yes, the consular officer in Japan who certified my kids' Consular Report of Birth Abroad made a big point of telling me that they'd still be considered "natural born citizens" despite being born in Japan, simply because I was their father. I don't think this is always the case though as the precedent is inconsistent.

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Hey, it’s simple—just release it, Barry.

And stop the parade of frothing-at-the-mouth coming out of the woodwork? I'd get a kick out of this if I were in his position as well...

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
It’s not the vast radical conspiracy of some fringe kook element, but the steady conviction of wanting what we, as American citizens, believe is the right thing to do.

Since you neglected to answer in the other thread, I'll ask again:

Do you believe a conspiracy began in Honolulu in 1961, and has multiple conspiring parties including the recent two-term Republican governor and various state officials?

Since none of the other birther eligibility lawsuits have been given a moment's thought by the SCOTUS, perhaps you guys would be better off donating money to this Hawaiian guy who is arguing Obama is not eligible due to Hawaii's unresolved status as an occupied territory:

http://www.hawaiiankingdom.org/sai-obama.shtml

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Not uncommon but not a verifying document.

The Federal government (IRS, SSA, DOS for passports et al), including documentation required for members of the military from this state, disagrees with you.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers." 2) There is something else in the birth certificate quite apart from the location of Obama's birth that might be embarrassing to the president.

1) Absolutely. Non-release has been a political calculation from day one. Despite polls with some 40% of Republicans questioning Obama's birthplace, there was a 378-0 vote on a House measure commemorating Hawaii's 50th year of statehood that included a statement Obama was born there. Where was all the GOP opposition?? Only 20 no-shows and 158 'yeas'.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll647.xml

2) This is entirely possible. Given what I know about racial profiling in Hawaii and the climate that existed here in the '50s and '60s, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his mother asked that his ethnicity be indicated 'Caucasian' on the document, which would shoot a giant hole in the "first black president" bit.

[Edited 2010-12-29 10:44:58]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
(By the way, the widely circulated official document that documents Obama's birth is the short-form "Certificate of Live Birth" which contains less information than the long-form birth certificate, at least from what I understand.)

Exactly. What people still aren't getting is that to receive a COLB one needs only to apply by mail for it. There's no legitimacy for it. It's as legit as a driver's license is for illegals that would claim citizenship with it.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
My own hunch is that Obama doesn't want the original long-form birth certificate released. I could imagine two reasons why this would be the case: 1) Keeping the issue alive allows the White House to depict its opponents as a bunch of kooks who can be lumped in with the "birthers."

BINGO. That's exactly it. It's a polarizing tool.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Since you neglected to answer in the other thread, I'll ask again:

Do you believe a conspiracy began in Honolulu in 1961, and has multiple conspiring parties including the recent two-term Republican governor and various state officials?

Since none of the other birther eligibility lawsuits have been given a moment's thought by the SCOTUS, perhaps you guys would be better off donating money to this Hawaiian guy who is arguing Obama is not eligible due to Hawaii's unresolved status as an occupied territory:

I am not a conspiracy kook, no, I'd just like to see it. Also, the fact it wasn't heard by SCOTUS means nothing either. Under what authority do they have to unseal state documents?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
The Federal government (IRS, SSA, DOS for passports et al), including documentation required for members of the military from this state, disagrees with you

Again, that means nothing. See my point about driver's licensing.


25 LMP737 : Why don't you ask Jimmy Carter, GWB I, Bill Clinton and GWB II to release theirs as well? Also, do you think it will really matter to the birthers wh
26 Aaron747 : For what? It has been verified over and over again. I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Two birth announcements in different newspapers in 1961, which wa
27 mbmbos : And why would you be when it's so much easier to sew seeds out doubt without taking any personal responsibility for it?
28 LMP737 : Let me explain how it works in the USA. If you make a claim about someone, in this case the birthers saying the President was not born in the US, it
29 DocLightning : No, it is because his father was from Africa and he is mixed-race with a decidedly non-American name. If his name were Jim Smith and he were white, t
30 mham001 : Ahh, I've been waiting. You have been posting incessantly as a Wikileaks supporter, transparency in government and all that. Why would you be opposed
31 Aaron747 : Yeah, so? Entirely different issue. There are ongoing issues as to whether engagement with certain countries as presently conducted is in the best in
32 mham001 : Ahh, that's quite the dance you're doing there. Arguing for complete transparency from government, including things meant 'secret' but excusing the s
33 Post contains links Aaron747 : ??? This is a non-issue to me. The POTUS's eligibility is not legitimately in question, thus there is no dance. Required documents were submitted, ha
34 mham001 : From Factcheck.org (btw my birth certificate includes all the information as Hawaii's long form, but sorry, I am not posting a copy.) The document is
35 Aaron747 : Categorically fallacious. Hardly. Political BS between countries that advances impediments to business relations, strategic planning, and better coop
36 Slider : Already asked and answered above by mham. I wasn't born in HI. I only have the original stamped one that I had. I take total responsibility for every
37 DeltaMD90 : I honestly hope President Obama doesn't release his birth certificate. Don't negotiate with [political] terrorists. If they aren't convinced yet, I do
38 Aaron747 : Unfair is asking to see more when sufficient proof has already been provided. I've started threads on that very topic way back when and mostly agree,
39 mbmbos : We know every bit as much about him as we have known about any other presidential candidate to come before him. We know as much about him as is requi
40 LMP737 : That response just shows the intellectual dishonesty of the birther movement. When posed that question regarding former presidents they either go mut
41 PacNWjet : If it is unfair to ask, then why is Neil Abercrombie trying to find a way to release the documents despite the fact that Obama has not done so? This
42 Aaron747 : Frankly, if you see some of the stufff the guy is pushing despite a huge budget shortfall, you just have to question his sanity overall. Hopefully yo
43 DocLightning : Mark my words: if this "long-form" certificate is released, then the Birthers will then state that 1) There is something wrong with its authenticity 2
44 ltbewr : Part of the issue as to the 'birthers' is the Constitutional requirement for a President to be a 'natural born citizen' in the USA and have lived at l
45 Post contains images OA412 : I've resorted to filing this and similar arguments under the heading "if you say it often enough, it will come true". Many, many liberals/democrats/l
46 cws818 : It has been asked and it has been answered. Whether or not you accept or like the answer is another matter, entirely.
47 jetBlueguy22 : I think there is a difference between the two people. One is an average person and the other is the President of the United States. I think the Presi
48 seb146 : Exactly. John McCain was born in Panama, wasn't he? No one made an issue of that. I wonder how many of these "birthers" are the same ones that were s
49 MSPNWA : No, that's not how it works in the USA. Let's start at square 1. Say I want to run for President. I would have to prove that I'm a natural-born citiz
50 Post contains links Aaron747 : Actually it is. When you charge someone with something, i.e. that they are lying or hiding something, you have to prove that your charge is factually
51 Post contains links PacNWjet : Well, actually, that's not the case. If you Google "John McCain Panama" you get 607,000 hits, including links to articles in The New York Times, the
52 DocLightning : Given the fact that he supplied a valid birth certificate (and birth announcement) and that this was found by a Republican governor and then a few fe
53 LMP737 : Which he has done! What the birthers seem not to understand is that in the US if you make an accusation it is up to you to prove it to be true. Somet
54 seb146 : No one is harping on the subject of McCain's eligability the way these "birthers" are harping on Obama's eligability. McCain was born in Panama. One
55 jetBlueguy22 : The thing is McCains was contested in court. These attacks aren't just on Obama they are on McCain too. Blue
56 KMCIFAN : Why is the citizenship of Barack Obama in question when the others were not. This is a very dumb question. I guess know one wants to say it but I will
57 Aaron747 : Everyone knows that, unfortunately not everyone grew up in a multicultural environment like folks in Hawaii, major coastal metropolitan areas, etc.
58 Maverick623 : Actually, it is. Just read what MSPNWA has been writing. Openly admitting he still wouldn't believe anything if the requested documents were made pub
59 sccutler : There are a raft of reasons to dislike the current President, based principally upon his stated beliefs in the role of the federal government, and his
60 Maverick623 : There's not a whole lot to get. "Birthers" fall into one or more of these three categories: Racists, xenophobes, and attention whores. Fall into the
61 DocLightning : No, but there are certain elements of opposition to the President that are racist. 1) Those who place undue emphasis on his middle name, one of the m
62 AustrianZRH : I understand the point you want to make. But I have to add, that neither Bush nor Clinton sound "American". Really American names would rather be som
63 seb146 : Actually, it does. It sounds as American as Mario Hernandez or Tui Vu. We are a melting pot. People have names from all over the world. I know what y
64 Quokka : Not having a stake in this debate, I have listed a number of reasons why people may oppose Obama. See my reply above: I might add that people dislike
65 sccutler : Missed the mark, here. Whatever the reason they don't like him, these people are simply using the possibility of President Obama's lack of legal qual
66 DocLightning : I agree. But I charge that EACH AND EVERY SINGLE BIRTHER was born outside the USA. And I challenge EACH AND EVERY BIRTHER to prove *INCONTROVERTIBLY*
67 Post contains images sccutler : I yield to your superior degree of ridiculousness.
68 Post contains images AustrianZRH : Maybe we should give that puppy of yours a hint what it should try to do next .
69 LMP737 : I don't know why you keep calling him Senator Gore. He was Vice President at the time of the 2000 election.
70 sccutler : I could equivocate by mentioning that the Vice-President is also President of the Senate, but fact is, I just under-titled him in error. Mea culpa. M
71 windy95 : You have to be kidding ....Thinking he might be muslim is racist? Being someone who does not agree with where he was born is racist? Calling Him Bara
72 2707200X : Most critics who emphasize his middle name do it to elude that he might be a Muslim or in some way un-American in origin. Obamas foreign originating
73 sccutler : My preference is to avoid use of the pejorative term, "racist," and instead to focus upon the actions of the person in issue. You need not label them
74 DocLightning : Yah. It's a judgement made based on his ethnicity (his name and his skin color). If he were white and his name were WIlliam Crowther, the "Muslim" id
75 Aaron747 : Where he was born is factually clear to just about everyone. If someone doesn't "agree" with the facts, that's not a matter of disagreement or even r
76 PacNWjet : Which brings us back to the (or what should be) topic of this thread—Governor Abercrombie's stated intention to find a way to release documents rel
77 Aaron747 : Who the hell knows, he's an idiot too. He proposes to end furlough days, maintain state worker pensions, build a new rail system in HNL and balance t
78 windy95 : Correct. But for Doc to say the reason is racism without any facts or proof is to me is also More intellectual dishonesty. If his name had been John
79 Aaron747 : Then why can't the birthers just man up and say that they believe his birth certificate might indicate he was born Muslim?
80 windy95 : You would have to ask them. Are the people who believe he is a muslim the same as the ones who think he was born in Kenya? Maybe people question whet
81 sccutler : Ummm... perhaps because that would not be relevant to their contention that, as a non-native-born person, he might not be legally entitled to be Pres
82 Dreadnought : Why would you want to confuse the two different issues?
83 Aaron747 : One is an issue potentially, but again, disputing his actual place of birth is just stupidity.
84 Dreadnought : Why is it stupid if it is, as I recall, the one and only requirement for the Office of President? As for the other one, which you say is a potential
85 Aaron747 : Because there is no factual evidence to support any dispute. It's like arguing 1+1 = 3. Incorrectly. Other requirements include being at least 35 yea
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