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Should The U.S. Start A Gun Control Policy?  
User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

With the recent shooting of a congresswomen in Arizona, I have to wonder if gun control would be possible in the U.S.

My personal opinion is that although it has been implemented with mixed success in Germany, it would be much more difficult to implement in the United States. In the United States guns are so widespread, that for the Government to try to restrict them would have serious back-lash for what ever political party might try. I doubt it would be possible even if a majority of citizens would argue for it.

This is a funny video in my opinion, explains in part why gun control might never work in the U.S.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXtfR0_roE

Lets try to keep this civil, explain ideas about gun control, but please refrain from personal attacks.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
205 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
With the recent shooting of a congresswomen in Arizona, I have to wonder if gun control would be possible in the U.S.

There is already gun control policies in place. Each state have their own policies, however, some constituents still claim that it's way too easy to get a gun.

I think there should be policies in place for people who have suspected mental health issues. People like the Virginia Tech shooter, and this guy that did the shooting in Arizona. These guys both were suspected to have mental health issues, and they were still able to walk into a store and buy a firearm. There needs to be a protocol in place for people with mental health issues so that can't LEGALLY get their hands on a gun.

We as a society need to control these people. There are tell tale signs, such as an essay written in an English class, or a youtube video, or a blog. Furthermore, everyone going for a gun permit should pass mental health test before they are even able to get close to a firearm.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13514 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5058 times:
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We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

[Edited 2011-01-09 18:12:23]


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 962 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5058 times:

I don't know that gun control in the US would achieve enough to be worthwhile for anyone. High levels of gun ownership don't necessarily translate to high levels of gun violence in other countries - there seems to be something more basic in the US psyche that gun control can't address.

User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

The problem is the NRA will say that more guns mean better coverage, and the people for gun control want stricter laws. Bottom line is if guns are the problem, more guns can not be the solution. It is a no win situation to say the least. And of course the gun zealots will chant that "you can take the guns from my cold dead hands" I should point out that I am anti gun and mainly as gun violence has personally effected me and my family so I find it hard to remain neutral on the subject. Would I like to see stricter gun laws, yes, will I in my lifetime, NO.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
My personal opinion is that although it has been implemented with mixed success in Germany, it would be much more difficult to implement in the United States. In the United States guns are so widespread, that for the Government to try to restrict them would have serious back-lash for what ever political party might try. I doubt it would be possible even if a majority of citizens would argue for it.

Even if you managed to pass a constitutional amendment overturning the second amendment, it would be impossible to collect all the guns. Most law-abiding citizens might, but none of the crooks would leaving the gangbangers with guns and everyone else defenseless. Home invasions and armed robberies would go through the roof - remember the US population is spread out - there are millions who live where it might take 15 minutes or more for a cop to get to. Because of that very fear, millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens would probably keep and hide their guns. I know I would. My family's safety trumps anything the government says.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

That seems to be the central argument of the Penn and Teller youtube link I cited.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.

Do you feel the U.S. should implement a nationwide test to check mental health before allowing a fire-arm to be purchased? Should that matter be left to the states, or not at all? Should they check every-citizen to find out if they are mentally competent? How does one control nut-jobs?



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21516 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4998 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
We as a society need to control these people. There are tell tale signs, such as an essay written in an English class, or a youtube video, or a blog. Furthermore, everyone going for a gun permit should pass mental health test before they are even able to get close to a firearm.

You lost me here. Yes, mentally ill people shouldn't be able to buy a gun, but you can't go taking away someone's 2nd Amendment rights just because of some paper they wrote in school, unless they explicitly say they intend to cause harm. If someone has an already-diagnosed mental ailment, then that should be a disqualifier when it comes up in the background check, but I'm not comfortable with more restrictions than that.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
In fact, had anyone in the immediate vicinity been carrying a firearm as well, it's likely this lunatic wouldn't have racked up as many victims as he did.

It's just as likely that more innocent bystanders would have gotten hurt from stray bullets fired while trying to hit the shooter, so that argument doesn't really work, no matter how many times it gets thrown out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinehka098 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
There is already gun control policies in place. Each state have their own policies, however, some constituents still claim that it's way too easy to get a gun.

Kind of what I was thinking. Stricter legislation won't keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If they really really want a gun, they'll find a way to get one.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
How does one control nut-jobs?

I don't think you can control them all.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4981 times:

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
How does one control nut-jobs?


Retroactive abortion!


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39694 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
We have one - it's called the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Besides, this weekend's senseless attack was a crazy nutjob control issue, not a gun control one.


  
Amen to that!
That nut-job already broke the law by shooting people and killing them. So I doubt he'd be concerned about violating a gun-control law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
it might take 15 minutes or more for a cop to get to.


15 minutes?
More like 1 hour in some places.
In the rough parts of Chicago (a city with very strict gun control), the police are notoriously slow in responding to crime.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

I don't own any guns and I grew up in a house that had none but I'm completely against limiting law-abiding citizens the right to own as many of any type of gun they wish. I'd take cars from young people before I'd take a gun from one. That would save a lot of lives.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 7):
Do you feel the U.S. should implement a nationwide test to check mental health before allowing a fire-arm to be purchased? Should that matter be left to the states, or not at all? Should they check every-citizen to find out if they are mentally competent? How does one control nut-jobs?

What is mentally ill? Should people with OCD or Anorexia not be allowed to own guns because they are mentally ill? What about people who suffer from poor coping skills? All those illnesses are considered mental illness in the DSM.

[Edited 2011-01-09 19:03:34]

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13037 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4933 times:

I would note that in comparison to the 1990's, criminal use of guns to commit murders, especially in NY City, have been at lows not seen since the 1960's. Still the numbers of those killed by illegal gun use in the USA is way too disproportion to most other industrialized countries. There are already a number of regulations on the US Federal level as to 'gun control'. Still, more could be done on the Federal level yet stay consistent with the 2nd Amendment and 'states rights' as to gun regulation. Some examples:

- Substantially reduce the number of Federal licenses so the remaining numbers can be regulated better.
- All sales must take place on the licensed site (no 'gun show' sales or out of the back of a SUV).
- All sales must be done in the legal state of residence of the buyer.
- A higher Federal tax on dealers licenses, guns and ammo as well as higher fines for gun related violations to pay for more regulation and enforcement.
- End getting a handgun in Florida being much easier than in NY City (where it very strictly regulated). Legit residents in states with less regulation on the purchase of handguns will be straw buyers and resell them to 'friends' in highly regulated states for a nice profit. College kids in the easy states have been often involved in that trade.
- Require the purchase of liability insurance or a rider on their property insurance of any gun use outside of one's primary residence.
- Stiff penalties who allow their weapons or sell them privately to those that use them in crimes.

Still, more laws will not make it possible to stop all illegal and terrible use of them in the context of our culture of the last 200+ years in the USA. Beyond some increased regulation and enforcement of existing laws, we need our media to stop glorifying weapons use, perhaps show the real damage they cause, educate all, especially kids, as to the responsibility of guns.


User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4927 times:

How about socialized mental health care?

What about making those around the nut(employers, family, etc), partially responsible for not getting the person help?

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 12):
I'd take cars from young people before I'd take a gun from one. That would save a lot of lives.

   I really wish the US would take a harder line on this. If you drive drunk, be prepared to move somewhere with public transportation.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39694 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4919 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 14):
How about socialized mental health care?


We used to have nuthouses in the US but most were shut down because they were considered 'inhumane'.
So today we let nutjobs walk the street.   
Many of them are homeless.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 13):
What about making those around the nut(employers, family, etc), partially responsible for not getting the person help?

That's another very tricky subject. If family, friends, and coworkers have the ability to lock you up based on your "mental illness" that's a very scary thing. People would report every strange person they met due to fear of prosecution. Who are they to judge if you are a threat to yourself or others? This has been the battle of mental health professionals for years and years and a huge interest to me personally. Its a balance of safety and liberty...but where do we draw the line?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
We used to have nuthouses in the US but most were shut down because they were considered 'inhumane'.

And they were and its a great thing they are gone. The system is not perfect but at least people are not kept as prisoners, being abused and forced to take drugs for the rest of their life.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39694 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4866 times:

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 15):
And they were and its a great thing they are gone. The system is not perfect but at least people are not kept as prisoners, being abused and forced to take drugs for the rest of their life.


So having them sleep on park benches, defecating on buses, panhandling and occasionally stabbing and shoot random people is better?   
Perhaps if you lived in a city with lots of homeless people, you'd feel a lot different.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4854 times:

I feel we are getting off topic with this but I'll respond in short.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
So having them sleep on park benches, defecating on buses, panhandling and occasionally stabbing and shoot random people is better?
Perhaps if you lived in a city with lots of homeless people, you'd feel a lot different.

I have lived in cities like that. I deal with homeless people and the mentally ill daily in my line of work. Just because someone is homeless doesn't indicate they are mentally ill. Many are addicts in addition to having mental illness. And in the end, so what? Should someone be deprived of their liberty and freedom just because you don't like them asking for change and sleeping in a public place? Should we strap them down and force feed them medication that will kill them in the long run, which we did and continue to do?

I don't know if you know anything about the intimate details of the mental health industry in the USA from the 1950's to today but it was not a good thing what we did then, and even now.


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8447 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4839 times:

The Second Amendment means you have a right to have a gun but with that comes responsibility. I think reasonable means must be taken within all the fiery discussions of the Second Amendment purists. I do think background checks are necessary for all purchasers and no one needs an AR-15 or AK-47 to defend their house. A million laws are not going to prevent all gun crimes but arming everyone is not going to make the streets and neighborhoods safe.

[Edited 2011-01-09 20:26:05]


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4836 times:

Should the US have a gun control policy? Yes. The policy should be "you must use both hands".

Okay, now that is out of the way so time for a little more serious input. I think the limit of "gun control" should be what type of weapons one is allowed to own. I don't think every person needs an automatic rifle, but I have no problem with people owning hunting rifles or shotguns and handguns for home defense. I'm sure even some in the "pro-gun" crowd will disagree with me, but that's what I believe.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39694 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4827 times:

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I feel we are getting off topic with this but I'll respond in short.


Actually it's very much on topic. Mental health is an important part of gun control laws.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
Just because someone is homeless doesn't indicate they are mentally ill.


I do understand that some people have unfortunate circumstances and may end up on the streets.
Having lived in San Francisco for 15 years and seeing the aggressive and crude behavior of many homeless, most are mentally ill. Many are not the innocent panhandling variant.
Last year there was a homeless man that was going around stabbing people on the city buses.
I've seen a homeless man vomit on a lady on her way to a job interview.
I avoided taking the night owl buses because many homeless urinate and defecate on the city bus.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I deal with homeless people and the mentally ill daily in my line of work.


Dealing with the mentally ill in a clinic professional setting is much different than dealing with them on the streets.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 17):
I don't know if you know anything about the intimate details of the mental health industry in the USA from the 1950's to today but it was not a good thing what we did then, and even now.


Oh I'm sure it was horrible. In fact during that time, left-hand people were chastised in school and were forced to learn to write with their right-hand. So I can only imagine how bad it was for the mentally ill.
I don't want to seem like I'm beating up on the homeless and mentally ill but having them roam around in the gutter isn't good either.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4823 times:

Yes to gun control policy...everyone should be issued a gun in America...the insane ones already get theirs while out on parole! (protected by their lawyers)...the law abiding citizens are the ones that have difficulty and should (according to OUR Constitution) have the right to bear arms to protect themselves, family and property and that includes protecting themselves from an over zealous government. Perhaps the US should initiate lawyer/judge/politician control instead.

I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals. While of course the actions are not condoned...understandably they are a symptom of a country grossly divided by a confused and greedy government that wishes to transform the very fabric that makes the US different from other nations. So many are fighting back...some in a good way, others not so good.

One example...most level headed Americans will admit that "political correctness" is killing this country. While lawyers and courts have seen to mandate the issue...it also wreaks havoc with the travelling public...ergo TSA crap...

Angela Merkal said it herself..."Diversity is not working here"...Well its not working in the US either. Not the way it is currently presented. Like being rammed down our throats. Enforceable rules of immigration exist and in the past have worked but as PC has become the mandate...it brings the worst out of some here. What your seeing is kick back from all sides. Take peoples guns away?...Americans will not stand for it especially while we are constantly threatened with terrorist actions. If the public confided in its government and its abilities to protect its people, the topic might be open for discussion but at this point in time while it is open season on Americans...staying locked and loaded is a good, sound and reasonable insurance policy.


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4798 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):

Oh I'm sure it was horrible. In fact during that time, left-hand people were chastised in school and were forced to learn to write with their right-hand. So I can only imagine how bad it was for the mentally ill.
I don't want to seem like I'm beating up on the homeless and mentally ill but having them roam around in the gutter isn't good either.

You aren't beating up on them at all... you're just using your experience as a guide and that's OK. What we have to ask ourselves is how do we deal with it? In the past we just locked them up against their will for life and today we've, it seems, moved in the opposite direction (somewhat). The sad thing is most people outside the system just don't care enough to do anything about it.

If you're interested I can give you a lot of literature on the debate of competency and some really good books to read.

[Edited 2011-01-09 20:50:07]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21516 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4785 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals.

Whom you want to arm with guns....   

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39694 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4787 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 21):
I might add that many law abiding, hard working citizens have been pushed far over the edge by the loss of jobs/home/marriages as a result of a grossly mismanaged bloated government. The result is desperate actions by desperate individuals. While of course the actions are not condoned...understandably they are a symptom of a country grossly divided by a confused and greedy government that wishes to transform the very fabric that makes the US different from other nations. So many are fighting back...some in a good way, others not so good.

Right-wing extremist AM radio blowhards feed the fire and stir up the pot with their hatred and sometimes violent messages.
I wonder if Sarah Palin will be shouting "reload" after this weekend's horrible shootings in Arizona.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 22):
In the past we just locked them up against their will for life and today we've, it seems, moved in the opposite direction (somewhat).

You are correct about that.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 22):
If you're interested I can give you a lot of literature on the debate of competency and some really good books to read.

Send me an IM, I'd be interested in reading up on this topic.



Bring back the Concorde
25 ArmitageShanks : I'll do it.
26 flymia : The problem with gun control is criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get a gun. If someone wants to kill a high ranking official they will figure out a
27 LAXintl : We have gun control policy in America, and matter of fact quite often repressive part of quilt work of Federal, State, and local laws that govern gun
28 Mudboy : First off, I own a gun, and my current job assignment requires that I carry one, and be qualified on several types. When I am stateside I always have
29 DiamondFlyer : These points always come up, and I would like to point out that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the M16 & AK47's on the battlefield tha
30 Superfly : How come when ever these gun control threads come up, the attention is always focused on the United States? What about Switzerland? They are a very we
31 Post contains images Mudboy : Ask Michael Moore, because nobody gets murdered in those countries, right?
32 TheCommodore : I would also think you could reasonably say, that despite the Swiss being well armed, they don't appear to suffer the same problem as in the US with
33 Mir : I'm not entirely convinced that there is any real correlation between more gun ownership and lower homicide rates. If they could enforce those laws p
34 Superfly : Key word; IF. Kind of silly to use 'if' scenarios. If everything was done right in this world, this would be a utopia.
35 UH60FtRucker : OR... maybe we can start reopening mental/crazy hospitals, and we can start filling them up with these nuts.
36 Superfly : I said that in reply #14 & 16.
37 UH60FtRucker : You're absolutely correct, I apologize Sup! lol just consider it an affirmation of just how correct you were!
38 Mir : Indeed. But that only goes to show that strict or lenient gun laws don't make a whole lot of difference one way or the other - the overall society ha
39 Post contains images EA CO AS : Hogwash. Not only do you not know that, it's actually more logical to conclude that any Good Samaritan with a firearm attempting to end the bloodshed
40 UNCRDU : Gun control: Being able to hit what you are aiming at. So, to answer the original question: Yes, everyone should have a gun control policy.
41 Mir : If they the good luck to be in close proximity, perhaps. If they were halfway across the crowd, perhaps not. Either way, the whole scenario is a hypo
42 EA CO AS : Absolutely true. It's a shame there wasn't such a person nearby. Not at all - where would you get such an idea? Kind of a stretch for you to make tha
43 DocLightning : Was it? How'd he get a gun? In the UK, he'd never have got near one. If you listen to the NRA, guns are not associated with gun-related crime, they s
44 jwenting : The shooter already broke a variety of laws to get the gun he used. More laws to disarm citizens so they can't defend themselves from criminals doesn'
45 Superfly : So in other words, gun control is a meanless law.
46 EA CO AS : Would it have made you feel any better if he'd slashed her throat with a knife instead? A nut with an agenda is a nut with an agenda - the weaponry u
47 Post contains links Superfly : Question: Would a knife ban make the U.K. any safer? Aluminum baseball bat sales are up sharply in Russia but not baseballs and gloves. Just bats. Nat
48 gosimeon : I think the problems with violence using guns in the USA would be a LOT less if: -Gangs were put in jail -There was a better mental health support sys
49 PWM2TXLHopper : Most people who use firearms in a crime are prohibited from owning or buying them, anyway. Either due to being convicted felons, being diagnosed as m
50 Superfly : Too many apologist that love gangs and give them 2nd. & 3rd. chances. Glorification of gang culture in Hollywood and in the inner cities. Keep in
51 Post contains links gosimeon : Well, for starters, they aren't allowed to buy guns! Mental health unfortunately plays a very small part in the screening law in Arizona from what I
52 Superfly : Nor are they allowed here. In fact, is anyone allowed to buy a gun in German? As far as violent crime in the US, almost all violent crimes are commit
53 PWM2TXLHopper : Yeah, look at the stats on home invasion/robbery in states with tough gun control, vs. states with liberal policies concerning gun control and proper
54 gosimeon : The guy involved in the Arizona shooting had a history from his teenage years right through to not getting into the army due to drug use, but was abl
55 Superfly : Jared Loughner would have bought a gun illegally. Killing people is against the law in the United States and it is very naive to think that this even
56 gosimeon : As I said, that doesn't mean he should be able to buy guns legally. The possibility of doing something illegally ≠ Legalise that action. To be hone
57 JJJ : Of course. If you are a licensed hunter or sports shooter you can have a weapon and shoot in hunting grounds and licensed clubs. A concealed carry pe
58 Superfly : My guess is that the government didn't do it's part in properly doing a background check. It was already documented that this man was crazy. Being ki
59 flynlr : errr nope ..simple fact , the criminals and those who wish harm on others. do not follow laws ... end of discussion. on the bright side. I will as a m
60 racko : Illegal weapon purchase is made a lot easier when there are tons of guns in circulation. Recently read that many guns used in drug violence in Mexico
61 Superfly : They can just as easily get their guns from Russia.
62 ImperialEagle : That's what I'm thinking. If everybody had been packing somebody could have picked-off the perp before so many others got shot. Would save the tax-pa
63 JJJ : Regular arms are harder to get in Russia than in the US. Plus, you can't just walk from Russia to Mexico.
64 Superfly : Money talks. You'd be amazed at how much money is involved in the drug cartels of Mexico. Getting Russian made guns in Mexico is as easy as getting a
65 JJJ : I'd bet one of those bottles that a bunch of those Russians made their way to Mexico through the US.
66 Mudboy : I am sorry, but If I wanted to live in a country where everyone was carrying a gun, I would move to Pakistan. There are enough idiots that drive cars
67 Superfly : So it's all the US fault regardless then huh? It's not the United States fault that Mexico can't control their own problems. Anyhow, there is plenty
68 JJJ : I'm not talking about anyone's 'fault'. It turns out that a country with enormous gang/crime problems and tight gun laws sits next to a country with
69 Superfly : So are you implying that the US should change it's gun laws because Mexico can't take care of their own problems? ...as well as Russia.
70 JJJ : I don't imply anything, I'm just stating a fact (like, for example, that 70% of illegal weapons in Mexico come through Ciudad Juárez). Both Mexico a
71 Superfly : Of course not. I'm just pointing out that those criminals will find a way to get their guns considering how much money they have.
72 Post contains links luv2fly : And now we have Fred Phelps praising the shooting. Since we are talking about nut jobs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpkxoql4xz0&feature=player_
73 STT757 : There are many parts of the United States such as Alaska and parts of the Western/Mountain states that almost neccesitate carrying a gun, there are ha
74 Post contains images Superfly : Would be interesting to see the Tamil Tigers from Sri Lanka, MILFs in the Philippines and hold outs from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia take on an Alask
75 windy95 : Agree with this. Maybe to much violence in our society. Far more violence done by Teenage drivers and drunk drivers in this country..Take away a 2000
76 FlyPNS1 : This is the bigger problem. Ironically, both the left leaning (media/entertainment types) and the right leaning (NRA types) are guilty of promoting a
77 Superfly : They have the highest rate of illegal gun ownership and usually in cities with very strict gun-control laws. Yet the state of Alaska probably has the
78 JJJ : High-profile criminals yes, if firearms are harder to get they'll be too expensive for Joe Mugger to get, which is usually the case in most of (West)
79 AGM100 : They can certainly pass a gun ban ... it will happen in the US eventually. As we have seen over the past week ...the Constitution is not highly regar
80 11Bravo : What a bunch of reactionary right-wing nonsense. How about some reasonable degree of gun control? This dude should have never been able to purchase o
81 AGM100 : 100% agree.... and that is why I support the background check. This dude failed a US armed services pshyc exam .... he should have been on the list a
82 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : All true. However, if gun ownership (legal or illegal) is supposed to scare off criminals from attacking (as the NRA claims), then shouldn't inner-ci
83 JJJ : I am sure alcohol abuse plays a part, too.
84 DocLightning : Can you demonstrate that? Because in COUNTRIES with tough gun control, like the UK, gun-related crime is very rare. UK has something like less than 5
85 Dreadnought : That is the key. American society is generally more violent than others, including countries that also have a lot of weapons hanging around. The big
86 EA CO AS : No it won't. The U.S. Supreme Court has already struck down gun bans in certain cities as unconstitutional
87 Aaron747 : That is absolutely the first thing to be done. I believe this is a fundamental flaw of the 8th amendment. As much as strict constructionists would li
88 DocLightning : he would have never got near her. And with a knife he MIGHT have injured one person, might have even killed one. Knives can kill one person at a time
89 AGM100 : The court will change ...it will , and so will the laws and public opinion. It has too ...there is know way 30 years from now my kids have the same g
90 bhill : Handguns, yes, and make it either a capital offense or an automatic 3rd strike if a crime is commited with a firearm. To say that your environment wou
91 Venus6971 : Blaming guns is like blaming forks for obese people, yes a guns purpose is to kill but the automobile kills more people anually than gun violence. If
92 Post contains links luv2fly : Interesting article from Time magazine and talking about mental individuals and being able to get a gun. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,859
93 Dreadnought : Agreed. And MAD prevented us from getting killed for 40 years. As someone once said, "An armed society is a polite society." You think a gangbanger w
94 EA CO AS : He went right up to her - how can you say he would never have gotten near her? And if there were some sort of barrier - a desk or whatever - between
95 luv2fly : With CCP you never know if that person you are going to attack has one and that has not stopped people from committing crimes. I don't agree, if guns
96 AGM100 : I sure hope you are right .... and its not all about gun ownership . My fear is that the idea off retaining the constitution as intended by the found
97 FlyPNS1 : Yes to both. These crimes (and a majority of gun crimes) are committed by people who don't value life including their own. As for road ragers, those
98 UNCRDU : You should follow the news in China more. Seems as if they can't have a month go by without some nutjob killing 6 or 10 schoolchildren in a knife mas
99 Kent350787 : I was reading yoru post and thinking you were following a similar broad line to my comment back in reply 3. Then we diverted.... I find it incomprehe
100 Dreadnought : The Wild West was a lot safer than Hollywood has led us to believe, and their reputation was really started by Dime Store Novels on the east coast -
101 Post contains links san747 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov http://www.armscontrol.ru/start/publications/spectrum-ews.htm MAD didn't prevent us from getting killed
102 DocLightning : Fine. He could have killed her. ONE person. He wouldn't have taken down five (six?) including a kid and wounded 6 others. Fact is that knives do not
103 gosimeon : Most immature and silly response on a.net ever? Quite possibly... congrats. I think the notion that the USA needs some extra control on guns is obvio
104 san747 : Remember, these are averages. The murder rate in SoHo or the Upper East Side in Manhattan is not going to be the same as it is in Bedford-Stuyvesant
105 Post contains links UNCRDU : Wrong. Look at China. People kill more there on knifing sprees than this loon in Arizona did with a Glock 9mm and 30-round mags- http://www.msnbc.msn
106 gosimeon : That may be so, but it has NOTHING to do with somebody trying to kill a politician and (actually killing) a bunch of innocent people in the USA this
107 UNCRDU : This is a thread about gun control. My point was that even places where people cannot freely own guns have problems with massacres and killing sprees
108 san747 : So in two of them, the attacker targeted defenseless children at schools and in the 3rd one, there was a GROUP of attackers. Doc's point stands- one
109 bhill : Kent350...you need to take a hard look at the type of crime committed...how many of the persons are in jail for victimless crimes such as possesing a
110 UNCRDU : Doc said that it was impossible for a man to cause a massacre with a knife. Recent events have proven otherwise. Children can be victims too, or do w
111 gosimeon : Well, seeing as Chinese knife crimes seem to be a passion of yours, let's say this nutjob in Arizona had a knife rather than gun. I have an feeling a
112 Kent350787 : I agree entirely - and actively argue against things like "3 strikes" laws when politicians raise the issue here. If teh US is happy with so many peo
113 UNCRDU : Maybe. Maybe not. Gun control and rampages in countries where guns aren't available are completely related.
114 gosimeon : So you think he could have killed at least 6 people with a knife? Really?
115 UNCRDU : Yes. As the incidents in China have shown.
116 Post contains images gosimeon : Okay so. I expect you to be first in line when the Glock v. Knife trials start then! Good luck with that...
117 san747 : As I explained: None of these incidents in China you've mentioned are comparable to Saturday's shooting. There is NO way a guy with a knife is going
118 Post contains links UNCRDU : So the incidents in China weren't massacres? Anyways, here's a guy that killed 7 people in a crowd of lucid, conscious adults: http://english.aljazee
119 DocLightning : If it were perfect, there would never need to be amendments, would there? Let's look very careful at the 2nd Amendment. It reads (emphasis mine): A w
120 san747 : Fair enough, but how many of those victims were killed by the stabbings and not him driving a truck into that crowded area near a busy train station?
121 UNCRDU : Don't know, but the headline talks about a 'stabbing spree', not a 'hitting spree', so I'd assume at least a couple of people were killed by the stab
122 san747 : Precisely. The Constitution gets a lot of ideas and concepts right, but the fact is that there is absolutely no way the founders could anticipate how
123 UNCRDU : That's why we have the ability to change the constitution through amendments. Worked fine for getting rid of outdated institutions like slavery and o
124 windy95 : "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on
125 Kent350787 : Yeah, I like how that bit is generally disregarded. My own interpretation is that they wanted to be able to quickly call up an army to defend the dev
126 Post contains links Yellowstone : Interesting statistic re: guns in the US - did you know that, during the Vietnam War, more Americans died in the United States from firearms than died
127 windy95 : The Constitution does not need to adapt. It needs to amended through the process the founders gave us because they could see and anticipate a changin
128 Aaron747 : Don't tell me you're quoting The Federalist Papers now, when you have attacked their very use as support for the Founders' beliefs regarding equal pr
129 windy95 : The founders never intended to have a standing army " ... but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnit
130 windy95 : I have never done any such thing. My exact statement on you using the federalist papers was that the phrase "seperation of church and state" is nowhe
131 UNCRDU : Nice idea, but wouldn't really solve anything as a perp could just buy two guns like the Va Tech killer did.
132 san747 : Thanks for completely ignoring the other part of my post where I praise the Constitution. Or for assuming I believe we should throw out the Amendment
133 windy95 : Sorry was not trying to do that. But we still need the right to stay armed against an overagressive government. Nothing has changed there.
134 Kent350787 : Exactly. But there is one so, to me, the need for the "well regulated Militia" disappeared long ago, as should have the need for a "right to bear arm
135 san747 : While I understand that sentiment, I think this idea that the government will just up and enslave us under an authoritarian regime if we aren't caref
136 TheCommodore : Probably fair to say is dose need some "updating". Nothing stays the same forever, society's and populations change over many decades , so it should
137 Dreadnought : Unlike you I lived through that era (at least the end of it). I also spent much of the 90s in Russia getting to know many of them. I stand by what I
138 luv2fly : The NRA will never accept any changes that have stricter gun laws that what we have now.
139 ltbewr : Some here have brought up separately the well armed citizens of Switzerland and the USA Constitution 2nd Amendment 'well regulated militia' reference.
140 Aaron747 : Ahh that's what it was, as I stand corrected. In any case, what you are doing here regarding firearms (and quite correctly I might add) is no differe
141 san747 : I'm sure the average Russian had/has no more desire to die than the we Americans, that's not what I was arguing. I was simply showing documented inci
142 DocLightning : Freely elected being the key word. If that happens then your guns in your home aren't going to help if they come after you. They have tanks, rockets,
143 Post contains images TheCommodore : What a sensible man ! I mean really, dose the average American really thing that the Government will turn against then one day ? If they do, then tha
144 DiamondFlyer : Which is comical. We really need some laws on the books that representatives can't try to start legislation without some basic intelligence on the su
145 Yellowstone : The one used in Tuscon did. Even if there aren't many pistols out there for which this law is relevant, why not close off this method of attack to fu
146 UNCRDU : The glock wouldn't be illegal under the assault weapons ban, but the magazine would. Any shooter would simply compensate for this by either creating
147 DiamondFlyer : Exactly, it used a MAGAZINE, which is totally different than a CLIP. The fact of the matter is, many of these politicians don't have a clue the diffe
148 Post contains images Dreadnought : They are the same thing, just longer.
149 Yellowstone : You're really going to use some little semantics game to justify not supporting this rule? A magazine and a clip are, in common parlance, the same th
150 DiamondFlyer : Yes, yes I am. Why dumb politicians must try to make political headway on the heels of a horrible event is beyond me. Couple that with sheer stupidit
151 Yellowstone : Political headway?! Loughner fired 31 shots, killing 6 and wounding 14. He was then stopped when he tried to reload. Had he only been able to purchas
152 UNCRDU : The Va Tech shooter killed 33 people with 2 pistols, no extended mags needed. Thinking that an extended clip ban would prevent something like this is
153 Geezer : quote= san747, reply=135 No matter what power legislators or the President have, they simply aren't powerful enough to start some sort of coup from wi
154 Yellowstone : No one attempted to disarm the Va Tech shooter - he had plenty of time to keep reloading until he got bored/ran out of targets and put one in his sku
155 Geezer : quote= san747, reply=132 All I'm saying is that parts of the Constitution should not be looked at today the same way it was in 1787. The Constitution
156 UNCRDU : No one was able to disarm the Va Tech shooter because he was shooting continuously. Did he have a 30-round mag? Nope. He did have two pistols, though
157 Yellowstone : I seriously doubt that. At some point, he would have had to pause to switch magazines (he fired close to 200 shots). His magazines were pre-loaded, b
158 UNCRDU : Well, who killed more people, Cho or Loughner? And which one was using the 30-round magazine? Are you trying to say that you doubt the Va Tech victim
159 Mir : Ok, so let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right, and that a 10-round limit for clips/magazines would not have made a difference in the
160 UNCRDU : Question: Would you support the mandatory installation of a device on all privately-owned automobiles that limited their top speeds to 75 mph? What r
161 Mir : I'll ask again: -Mir
162 Post contains images san747 : Good point, I was not aware of that! I agree with that absolutely, screening and background checks for potential gun owners needs to be much more tho
163 UNCRDU : My answer is contingent upon your answer.
164 Post contains images Superfly : The victums in the inner-cites are often good law abiding citizens that would never own a gun. Not everyone in the ghetto is a bad person. Plenty of
165 Maverick623 : If it's in direct violation of the Constitution, then no. For example, if in peacetime (no war declaration) an officer orders his men to commandeer a
166 Yellowstone : We don't put limiters on cars because there are cases where exceeding the speed limit can be necessary for safety purposes. There is no case I can th
167 racko : Is there actually a first-world country around that has really strict gun laws, i.e. no gun ownership unless you need it for your job?
168 UNCRDU : So, a 30-round magazine wouldn't be necessary if you are, say, a rancher in Arizona, living half an hour away from the nearest town, and you get in a
169 windy95 : If three or four people are breaking into my house it will be quite handy. Also failing the military drug test should send a red flag. Do a degree yo
170 JJJ : If you get in a gun battle with heavily armed drug smugglers a 30-round magazine will do little to improve your situation. Here long guns have magazi
171 UNCRDU : Well, it certainly will help your situation more than a gun with a 10-round magazine would. Plus, some people (enthusiasts, collectors, etc) like the
172 NIKV69 : Thought I am a LI native and lived through McCarthy's loss and the massacre here banning clips is not going to help anything. If someone wants to get
173 JJJ : If you think you can confront heavily amed drug smugglers (emphasis on "heavily armed" and the plural) with any kind of handgun (or SMG, or fully aut
174 Venus6971 : I think messing with the constitution to remove any admendment is a bad idea, the moment we give up a freedom and right espicially the first 10 admend
175 Post contains images Superfly : It boggles my mind that some people want to impose new laws when the existing laws were not enforced. Why can't the government accept responsibility
176 Dreadnought : And the Sheriff who is repeatedly going out of his way to blame Limbaugh, Fox and Conservatives in general, in spite of increasing evidence that they
177 NIKV69 : This is the same person who refused to enforce the immigration law and called it racist. As an elected public official this guy needs to behave a lit
178 Superfly : This Sheriff and all involved with his background check should be held accountable. That said, politicians, commentators and those in political circl
179 Post contains links Dreadnought : Don't just blame conservatives. Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun” Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!” Obama on ACORN Mob
180 Post contains links NIKV69 : You forget Ed Schultz? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7z_b3ES1f0
181 Superfly : Not doing that and I pointed out "gun-control freaks" whom are all on the left. Agreed. Agreed. You can't discount George Wallace's role in inciting
182 2707200X : Palin has been silent so far other than an email to Glenn Beck.
183 Superfly : Since this shooting, it's best that she stay silent.
184 Geezer : Superfly, reply=178 Gun-control freaks as well as the angry, foul-mouth conservatives are clueless and have their heads up their arse. I'll agree with
185 Post contains images Superfly : Question is, what planet have you been living on? History repeats it's self and when leaders use violent language against their political opponents,
186 NIKV69 : Why should she say anything? She has nothing to do with the shooting. This guy had no ties with the Tea Party or her. It's just MSNBC trying to destr
187 2707200X : Because Limbaugh says so, this is pure BS NIKV69 and I am calling you on that one. The problem is, people like you and the far-right will do anything
188 Post contains links Dreadnought : http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi...e_know_about_Loughner.html?showall
189 2707200X : People can say anything they want to make this killer a member of the readers opposite political identification, he is not liberal OR conservative, h
190 NIKV69 : What in the world are you talking about? It's politics. Campaigns always contain this sort of stuff.Liberals don't portray the GOP as the enemy? Don'
191 Post contains links travelin man : "Violence" in most cities in the US is at its lowest point in years. "L.A.'s Homicide Rate Lowest in 4 Decades" -- http://www.npr.org/2011/01/06/13267
192 Post contains links PWM2TXLHopper : I'm sure if one looked hard enough they could find statistics to back that up? However, according to the Legal Community Against Violence, out of the
193 Mir : I can think of a couple of cases. Banning large magazines would negatively affect some people. But the question is whether the benefits of such a mov
194 Superfly : Just like Sarah Palin. All 4 of those cities have experienced massive gentrification in the last 15-20 years. Low-lifes that are prone to violence ca
195 cws818 : Since he is not a member of the DNC and was not elected as a Democrat, I can't imagine why it would.
196 Geezer : All of this quoting this guy, and quoting that guy is getting me mixed up........can't keep up with who is on which side, PLUS, there are too many "su
197 Post contains images Superfly : Knew a few years ago when I attended Cal State Northridge University. Many belonged to Students For America and the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity. In the
198 Post contains links N1120A : The guns don't kill people crowd have to swallow these statistics: Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
199 UNCRDU : Broken link.
200 Post contains images Superfly : 'Jobless claims rise to a two-month high' 'Brazil mudslides death toll nears 500' Nothing about gun control.
201 windy95 : Visit msnbc for the most biased news source on the planet...Matthews, Olberman and Madcow. Real news there..
202 n318ea : You are so right. Don't forget Shultz and Lawrence O'Donnell, two of the most vicious attack dogs.
203 2707200X : Call MSNBC what you want but FOX News is an entertainment channel, they with the exception of Smith and Wallace have not contributed a single positiv
204 N1120A : Sorry. The link was to a video showing the significant connection between high gun ownership and high gun crime. You watch FOX way too much if you ha
205 Geezer : quote= N1120A, reply=198 The guns don't kill people crowd have to swallow these statistics: Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news ab
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