Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Should The US Start A Mental Health Policy?  
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

In the wake of the shootings in Tuscon, we have the usual questions about gun control.

But what always gets me is how the perpetrators of these crimes showed clear signs of being unhinged, yet nothing was really done, or in this case, not enough.

A lot has been said about the closure of mental health facilities in the US. Some members in the gun control thread have even pointed out that Switzerland, with it's high rate of gun ownership, has less than a fraction of the level of gun violence in the US. The answer here lies in our national psyche.

There are a lot of people who may have serious issues and could be a threat to either themselves or others, yet we don't seem to have any sort of policy or even debate about what should be done.

I of course welcome the recent trend in denouncing political commentators on left wing and right wing organizations like MSNBC and FOX, and this should continue as they are directly responsible for the poor state of political discourse in this country.

But we shouldn't ignore the mental health component to this. Jared Laughner is quoted as having "scared the living crap" out of his fellow students and faculty at Pima Community College. He had a long history of disturbing events where everytime he opened his mouth his words were "cringe inducing". How can someone like this be out in public unsupervised to begin with?

Let the discussion begin...

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20367 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

You run into a real problem with civil rights and competence issues.

There are countless stories of people who were having some trouble, and wound up being committed to psych hospital by overzealous staff. On the other hand, in this young man's case, it's pretty obvious that he is a schizophrenic with paranoid-delusional ideation. It's as if he stepped right out of the page in the psychiatry textbook.

There needs to be a system for providing services to keep the public safe, and it would also drastically cut the homeless population. There are people who genuinely cannot function in (in any society) and the American policy of just leaving them to rot on the streets is not only cruel, but it's a threat to public safety. Some of them, like this young man, are actively violent. Others simply present a pure safety hazard (they wander into traffic, push dangerously overloaded shopping carts down the street, urinate and defecate on the sidewalks, etc.)

It was one of the many shames of the Reagan administration and it needs to be reversed. I sincerely hope this incident leads to the re-opening of the asylums.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

The most diffiicult thing to assess (almost impossible in my opinion) is at what point does someone's mental abberration pose a threat to human health and safety. For every nut bar outed by friends and associates AFTER he's run amok -- like this guy in Arizona -- there's probably 100 who appear equally whacko and yet pose no threat to society at all. Ya can't lock 'em all up because they're a little warped; it's impossible to know where to draw the line, and civil liberties in a modern democracy ensure that the line is far enough out that the "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy holds true.

Your only hope is to keep firearms out of the hands of people like that -- and even that (given the fairly lax controls in the US in general) requires drawing lines in places that civil libertarians argue shouldn't be drawn.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Thread starter):
The answer here lies in our national psyche.

Sadly, that's the truth. It seems that gun ownership is a sacred right in the US and as long as that remains firmly entrenched in the national psyche there will continue to be sporadic acts of gun violence that kills innocent people. It happens in other places in the world, too, but apparently not at anything like the same rate. Anyone have the stats on that?



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlinesan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Mental health issues are very hard to take a solid stance on for the reasons explained above: defining what the line is, what constitutes "public danger" and civil rights issues that go along with the labels.

But another aspect is that most of the American public is uneducated as to what mental illness truly is and IMO I don't think it's a good idea to open up the public discussion on the issue until people are better educated on it. I realize that being informed on an issue has never been a requirement for Americans to pipe out their opinion on it, but I feel like this is one issue that should not be treated so flippantly.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3557 times:

Mental health is such an underrated problem the world over. This is largely because of so many unknowns about the various illnesses and therefore the politicians reluctance to spend good money on it.

Apart from mental health, there is also not enough support for "normal" people going through a crisis. Some people wkith no apparent mental health issues can snap with the right triggers. Law enforcement in particular are not typically well trained to recognise and deal with this.

Definitely a "yes" reply to this thread title, (and the other one too!)


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10352 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Thread starter):
I of course welcome the recent trend in denouncing political commentators on left wing and right wing organizations like MSNBC and FOX, and this should continue as they are directly responsible for the poor state of political discourse in this country.

Eh, I can't blame a TV network for trying to make money. You get what you pay for. If no one watched those networks, they wouldn't exist.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Thread starter):
How can someone like this be out in public unsupervised to begin with?

Who's going to stop him?

I've been scared of people before. And I'm sure I've scared people before too. But I don't think I should be in an asylum. But then again, am I really the best judge of my own mental sanity?

It's gotta be a tough call.

I'm all for having more facilities and services for those who may be mentally deficient or lacking in whatever way. But at what point does someone move from simply being "eccentric" to being "crazy"?



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

Mental health is very frowned upon in many countries, compared to Argentina for example. Certainly in the rest of Latin America, but even in the United States.

If you say ''I'm going to the psychologist'' in Argentina, it is seen as completely normal, just like a child going to a pediatrician, or an elderly to the geriatric ward, or going to the ophtalmologist, etc, etc. In fact, I would say 50% of the people I know have gone to one at some point, or their medical coverage sent them to one. No one would say 50% of the country is mentally ill or has brain problems. Just like going to the dentist doesn't mean all your teeth are falling off. It's either preventive medicine or general welfare.

I remember the first time I told this to a Brazilian girl when I was on a tour in Europe: she reacted as though I may be capable of killing someone. Hahaha, thankfully I was able to recover somewhat (with explanation and a bit of lying), but I don't think she ever saw me quite the same. It has also happened with US acquaintances or friends, and I have noticed that if you say that to people in the United States, some will immediately assume you are disturbed.

Argentina is famous for it's use of the ''shrink'' in the mass populace, it's probably overused too. But unless you grow up in a place that has more acceptance for mental health, it is hard to realize how restrictive the mindset is in other places. And that's how it seems to me, that in other countries it is a near taboo subject or otherwise if you go to a psychologist (not psychiatrist!!), you must be borderline unginged.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinesan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):

Argentina is famous for it's use of the ''shrink'' in the mass populace, it's probably overused too. But unless you grow up in a place that has more acceptance for mental health, it is hard to realize how restrictive the mindset is in other places. And that's how it seems to me, that in other countries it is a near taboo subject or otherwise if you go to a psychologist (not psychiatrist!!), you must be borderline unginged.

Agreed. In a culture that equates ANY mental health issue with "CRAZY!", compassion and understanding towards someone who is say, feeling depressed, just doesn't really exist. It's a big reason why I'm going to school to become a counselor/therapist- I want to be the person that people who are suffering feel they can come to without judgment or bias.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13206 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

One other factor is that the USA does not have a 'single payer' or univeral right to health care and many private plans severely limit access or payment for mental/psychlogical health care. Add to that the general attitudes in the USA unlike many other countries that looks at mental/psyclogical illness as a very fearful problem to be avoided and not honestly talked about.

User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
You run into a real problem with civil rights and competence issues.

Why should that pose a problem ?

Surely, the greater good of America, far outweighs one's individual civil "rights"

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 4):
Definitely a "yes" reply to this thread title, (and the other one too!)

I echo those sentiments.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 8):
One other factor is that the USA does not have a 'single payer' or univeral right to health care and many private plans severely limit access or payment for mental/psychlogical health care.

Yes, America needs to address general health policy's for the everyday general public. Something that seems to be a real difficulty for American politicians to sort out. Why not just have a general health coverage for all US citizens, whether you are employed or not, rich or poor ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Absolutely!!!!

It was a huge mistake to close so many mental hospitals. I would have no problem spending taxpayer money to contain these nuts.

All this pussyfooting around is just silly. Yes, I totally get it... some people have depression issues, or anxiety issues, or whatever, and that does not make them "crazy." But in this push to be so damn sensitive towards everyone's malfunctions, we tend to ignore the fact that there are indeed crazy people! I'm talking about absolute unstable nuts, who struggle/fail to integrate themselves into society. We all know some of these people, and there's no reason we should be catering to their sensitivities.

Lock 'em up!

Ever seen the movie Shutter Island?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/shutter-island.jpg

[Edited 2011-01-10 17:44:42]

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 2):

Gun control is a separate thread.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
Eh, I can't blame a TV network for trying to make money. You get what you pay for. If no one watched those networks, they wouldn't exist.

And hopefully these commentators will find themselves without viewers soon.

Anyway...

A lot of good points here.

The US spends more time debating gun control, etc, but almost no attention to the root causes of violent behavior. The tool is one thing, but time and time again, the nuts who lash out showed warning signs.

A big problem is the stigma we place on mental health services. Plenty of normal individuals (however you define normal) may simply need to reach out, could be under tremendous pressure, or have a condition that doesn't lend itself to violent behavior. Yet we stigmatize those that seek such therapy.

How does one pick the nuts out of the produce section?

Another great point brought up, civil liberties, and drawing a line between "eccentric" and "crazy".

But while we all have rights, if one has twisted mental capacities and is truly a danger to themselves or others, can they really be trust with the rights given to them? While the lines may be "blurred" as some have pointed out, both the VT shooter and the one in Tuscon had already been referred to mental health professionals. At that point, it was clear both needed supervision, but they were still to be out in public.

So in those instances when the line isn't blurred, what do we do with those who are a real danger to society?

It's been pointed out that we've closed down a lot of asylums and facilities meant to hold these individuals. Now does anyone have any statistics showing the trend in violence linked to unstable individuals and the closures of these facilities?

Something is clearly broken.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3469 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 12):
So in those instances when the line isn't blurred, what do we do with those who are a real danger to society?

Excluding the benefit of hindsight, how do you know the line wasn't blurred? To me that's not so clear. Pushing doctors to declare people insane doesn't sound like a great idea either, just like the opposite wouldn't be good either. Maybe the system, as is, is about as good as it can be; minimizing those who get away and cause trouble, but also minimizing those who end up in some cruel institution where they shouldn't be.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinerottenray From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting san747 (Reply 7):
compassion and understanding towards someone who is say, feeling depressed, just doesn't really exist


This is true - you only need to look at the bulk of pop entertainment as it exists today to see this.

I'm comparing "special living environment" reality shows today which pit person against person to "family" shows of the past like Leave it to Beaver, Brady Bunch, et al.

In general, civility isn't as popular as conflict - we've gone from enchantingly, nauseatingly polite to Big Brother in 3 generations.

Does art imitate life, or is life imitating art?



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):

The US spends more time debating gun control, etc, but almost no attention to the root causes of violent behavior


Again true, and I think at least a part of the reason for this is that gun control is a hot political issue while research into violent behavior is rather boring and research in general has been painted as wasteful of taxpayer money by many political action committees.

It's all research into the mating of fruit flies, and so forth.



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Excluding the benefit of hindsight, how do you know the line wasn't blurred?


Loughner doesn't appear to have documented his plans to the great level of detail which Harris and Klebold (Columbine) did, but even in the Columbine instance there was a large body of evidence before the fact that the boys were unhealthy. Harris was already under psychiatric care at the time of their killing spree.

This pretty much went ignored - using the standards of "the bad old days," both of these kids would most likely have been committed before they went on their killing spree.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
It was a huge mistake to close so many mental hospitals.


The only folks who are truly happy about this are the urban exploration hobbyists - there are lots of neat moldy old hospitals which are easy to break into and photograph.



Cheers!

(corrected spelling)

[Edited 2011-01-10 19:10:18]

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

The point on hindsight, while valid, seems to be losing relevance IMO.

Columbine, VT, Tuscon, workplace shootings, etc. Often times, yes through hindsight, these wackos have shown clear signs.

It just seems disturbing to me that we often see these signs and do little about them. And I'm not talking about a quirk or two, I'm talking documented threatening or violent behavior. In the case of Jared Loughner, I'm afraid it wasn't really hindsight. He was kicked out of his community college with his return conditioned on his ability to get a mental health professional to certify he wasn't a danger to himself or others. At this point it was clear how far over the line he was. This never happened, and Loughner just floated away, rambling on Youtube before he finally lashed out.

In the case of the other shootings I listed above, it also wasn't hindsight. Manifestos, hit lists, etc where all created by the perpetrators. These are not simple eccentricities where it would be "wrong" to have these people committed.

I'm not sure the line is as blurry as we make it out to be. I think part of it is a fear of backlash should we do something. Back in HS, I was threatened by someone who had a hit list. He already had a documented past of making threats and exhibiting violent behavior. I'm sorry, but that is not eccentric behavior by any stretch of the imagination. BTW, I reported this student and after an investigation into the matter to verify the claims, the student was dealt with. I think it worked out for everyone involved as who knows what could have happened had I done nothing, especially knowing about his past.

I'm not saying everyone with a mental issue should be locked up. In fact, quite the contrary, many with mental issues can still function in society.

We need to take a hard look at how we approach the issue of mental health. I think this country has a seriously flawed policy in place.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

[Edited 2011-01-10 19:06:21]

User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
The US spends more time debating gun control, etc, but almost no attention to the root causes of violent behavior. The tool is one thing, but time and time again, the nuts who lash out showed warning signs.

Wow. Here's an example.

I just learned that the state of California spends more on Jails and inmates, than they do on schooling !
Maybe its an overreaction on my part, but I find that VERY disturbing indeed. If the scales are out of whack that much, then I wouldn't even begin to imagine how America is going to address that problem, let alone have a sensible debate about gun control.

That's unbelievable, what has gone wrong over there.

[Edited 2011-01-10 19:11:12]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):

The gun control debate is a separate thread. You've been warned.

In fact, with such attempts to derail on a topic that isn't as "hot" or as "politically active" as gun control, it's no surprise we have had no real debate on mental health in the US.

In fact, I find your whole tone that my thread is somehow representative of some sort of a skewed priority highly offensive and agenda ridden, but unfortunately typical of what happens after such acts of violence. A lot of people are actually afraid to deal with the real root cause.

Just how long as we going to keep our heads in the sand? When someone starts scrawling hit lists, the issue isn't his access to any sort of weapons, but why he isn't under some sort of supervision at all!

Again, has any hard look been taken at the closure of mental health facilities, asylums, etc, and the rise of violent acts by unstable individuals? Has anyone bothered, or is this too boring for everyone?

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 16):
The gun control debate is a separate thread. You've been warned.

You are the one who mentioned gun control in first sentence of your opening thread !

And not only that, it has been mentioned by several other posters in this thread

So drop the attitude please of "warning people off"

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 16):
In fact, I find your whole tone that my thread is somehow representative of some sort of a skewed priority highly offensive and agenda ridden, but unfortunately typical of what happens after such acts of violence. A lot of people are actually afraid to deal with the real root cause.

No idea of what you on about with this.

I simply replied to something you wrote. There is no tone in my reply to you what so ever.
Mental health is a problem all over the world, better dealt with in some countries than others. maybe America could look at how other nations cope with this problem and learn from this. Just a thought.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
You are the one who mentioned gun control in first sentence of your opening thread !

And not only that, it has been mentioned by several other posters in this thread

So drop the attitude please of "warning people off"

The point of my mentioning it was that it wasn't the main issue behind violent behavior, and that as a whole we don't do a good job of keeping those who harm themselves and others from actually doing so.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
No idea of what you on about with this.

I simply replied to something you wrote. There is no tone in my reply to you what so ever.
Mental health is a problem all over the world, better dealt with in some countries than others. maybe America could look at how other nations cope with this problem and learn from this. Just a thought.

Your reply first went on about prisons, for whatever reason. You then stated that "how can the US be expected to have a sensible debate on gun control" with "these scales out of whack", which you can see how I took as a statement that my assertion that we spend more time debating gun control then how we deal with mental health was "out of whack". I may be misinterpreting your intent. I'm sorry, but this thread is a debate about mental health. There's another thread about the gun control debate.

Now here's a question... How does Australia deal with mental health issues, specifically with those who present themselves as a danger to others? I'm not slagging off Australia, I'm actually interested. After all this is a world wide problem, but clearly policies in the US are letting a lot of violent people out into society. Does Australia have any sort of asylum system where unhinged and potentially violent individuals are committed and monitored?

How about other countries?

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Ok, now we got that sorted.
 
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 18):
Now here's a question... How does Australia deal with mental health issues, specifically with those who present themselves as a danger to others? I'm not slagging off Australia,

We have our issues here too, don't you worry.

Australia is plagued with mental health issues, its not one of our "good points" I don't think. And very few Governments have the will to do too much about it.

Below is the latest Aust Gov report on "mental health for 2010.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/me...alth/publishing.nsf/content/home-1

I think we have one of the highest youth rates of suicide in the western world, no one seems to know why that is, just one of life's little mysteries perhaps.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 2):
The most diffiicult thing to assess (almost impossible in my opinion) is at what point does someone's mental abberration pose a threat to human health and safety.

I think that is the core of the problem? There is no bright line that a person crosses from being a little eccentric to an actual threat? Also, what behavior are we going to deem criminal? And there is also the issue of locking people up who haven't yet committed any offense. Google "Definition of Mental Health", and you will get over 15 million entries. There is no consensus on what mentally healthy is. It is one of those things that seems to defy quantification.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 2):
Ya can't lock 'em all up because they're a little warped

If they did, most of us would be posting from asylums.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1973 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

There is debate to be had--but there are certainly no simple answers.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
All this pussyfooting around is just silly. Yes, I totally get it... some people have depression issues, or anxiety issues, or whatever, and that does not make them "crazy." But in this push to be so damn sensitive towards everyone's malfunctions, we tend to ignore the fact that there are indeed crazy people! I'm talking about absolute unstable nuts, who struggle/fail to integrate themselves into society. We all know some of these people, and there's no reason we should be catering to their sensitivities.

I find that idea really disturbing. I mean on one level, it would be a comfort to think that anyone who might hurt you was locked away. But there are HUGE problems with that, moral and practical.

1.) In many cases it is difficult or impossible to determine who is potentially dangerous and who is not, however out of touch they may be with reality.

2.) Any system that seems to "punish" people for being mentally ill stigmatizes and discourages others from seeking mental health counseling and care when they need it, which can have the effect of increasing the amount of mental anguish and mental illness in society.

3.) Detaining against their will large numbers of people who have not committed any crimes is a VERY slippery slope in terms of rights, a slippery slope that can be exploited by people looking for vengeance or power, by corrupt medical systems, and by governments. In fact, it is an easy tool of totalitarianism and can easily reach a state where it has much more detrimental effects of society as a whole than an occasional, unpredictable murder.

Not easy reading, but have a look at books such as Madness and Civilization (and also related Discipline and Punish) both by Michel Foucault, about the history of mental illness and the way society has defined it in different times and places.

No matter what, you can't make the world safe. The number of random murders by deranged people is tiny compared to drunk driving deaths for example. I'd rather punish more drunk drivers...

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
I just learned that the state of California spends more on Jails and inmates, than they do on schooling !
Maybe its an overreaction on my part, but I find that VERY disturbing indeed.
Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 16):

In fact, I find your whole tone that my thread is somehow representative of some sort of a skewed priority highly offensive and agenda ridden, but unfortunately typical of what happens after such acts of violence. A lot of people are actually afraid to deal with the real root cause.

I don't think that is really a thread hijack, though it seems to go against what the same poster himself wrote earlier in the thread. The amount of money spent on prisons, and the number of people locked up, in this country, must have something to do with this debate. We lock up way more people than other countries which in spite of that fact end up with much lower crime rates, and the question of whether locking people away helps or hurts society in the long run is a valid part of this discussion. The answers probably aren't simple. But if you want to discuss this issue in a way that goes beyond populism and sound bites, I think it is a dimension that will certainly come into play.

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
Mental health is very frowned upon in many countries, compared to Argentina for example. Certainly in the rest of Latin America, but even in the United States.

I don't know if that's still the case in the US. I believe nearly 40% of university students in this country for example are taking anti-depressant/anti-anxiety medication, and counseling certainly isn't frowned on in many circles.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlinesan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Here's an interesting article on how the media and our culture overall views mental illness and its relationship to violent acts like this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

As much as the problem of adequately dealing with severe mental illness in this country is, the problem of automatically labeling someone who commits an act like this as mentally ill is just as bad. No one labelled Nidal Malik Hasan insane when he shot up Fort Hood because his motives were obviously political, so why do we all assume Jared Loughner is insane, despite clear evidence of political motives behind his act as well?



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40076 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

The book and movie; 'One Flew Over The Cookoo's' next was part of the movement to shut down these facilities.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
Another great point brought up, civil liberties, and drawing a line between "eccentric" and "crazy".


Since I'm a chubby-chaser, does that make me "eccentric" or "crazy"?


I am in favor of bringing back the Nuthouses for the common good of all. In the old days, did the the family of the crazy person have any say?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
And I'm sure I've scared people before too. But I don't think I should be in an asylum. But then again, am I really the best judge of my own mental sanity?


Yes, you scared me when I met you and yes you should be in an asylum because you like Vapor Trails and Snakes & Arrows over Caress Of Steel and Hemispheres!  

(that is a Rush reference folks)


You I wonder if there was a guy in 1961 that insisted on driving a 1927 Lincoln if he would be considered crazy and put away in a nuthouse.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It was one of the many shames of the Reagan administration and it needs to be reversed.


  
It's mindblowing that people put Reagan on a pedestal.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 21):
I believe nearly 40% of university students in this country for example are taking anti-depressant/anti-anxiety medication, and counseling certainly isn't frowned on in many circles.


Many college professors are on meds too and I can think of few that should be put in an asylum. I never forget having a professor throw a temper tantrum in class because no one volunteered to give her a ride to the nearest BART station. No joke!
She was a statistics professor too.
I also have a physics professor that never showered or brushed his teeth. I think the university had to step in and address this problem. He made a student vomit just by walking past his desk. Oh my gosh he smelled horrible!
These were all tenured professors mind you. None of these professors could ever survive in a business setting with this sort of behavior.

Quoting san747 (Reply 22):
No one labelled Nidal Malik Hasan insane when he shot up Fort Hood because his motives were obviously political,


....and religious.
Nidal Malik Hasan's actions were consistent with his fellow Islamic terrorist. He even shouted out while he was shooting what his killings was all about.
Of course that didn't stop pundits in the media and the President from jumping out and saying not to 'jump to conclusions'.  
Quoting san747 (Reply 22):
so why do we all assume Jared Loughner is insane, despite clear evidence of political motives behind his act as well?


Simple. There is no movement or organization that is out to kill Congress members and constituents to speak off. I haven't heard Obama and the media warning us to not jump to conclusions on this case.
Members of Congress are already using this trajedy as an excuse to pass more authoritarian laws. Never mind the fact that laws already on the books would have prevented Loughner from legally purchasing a gun.
The FBI failed to enforce laws already on the books.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinejessbp From UK - Wales, joined Dec 2010, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

THis debate is fascinating and a little scary. I'll admit right here that I suffer from mental health issues. I have Bi-Polar disorder type 2. What does this mean, well It means that my low swinging moods are worse than my hi swinging moods. Both can be dangerous, but only to me. For example. When I'm on an upcycle, I'm fun loving, free flowing and I can spend money like it's water. When I'm down though, I can find it hard to get up and can and have harm myself. That said, I'm a active member of my community, and I cope well out in the world. A lot of this comes from understanding my condition and knowing my limits. If I'm at a point where I'm likely to not 'Know my limits' then my partner will make sure I'm safe.

I only mention this as it's possible under some of the proposals here would see locked away based solely on my diagnoses and not on my ability to function. It's not that I don't understand the sentiment. Three times in the last 13 years I've been referred to secure mental health units for assessment, and believe me, there are some scary people there. I'm fortunate that I've never had to stay there.

Asylums are a good idea though, I'm not against the idea. releasing the severely mentally ill, the paranoid schizophrenic back into the general population with no idea where to go or support will result in the problems we see today with homelessness and mental health. But when it comes to asylums, you need to ensure that staff are well trained, and not little more than bullies, that doctors are there to help, not see the asylum as their personal plaything to test weird and disturbing treatments. These places should be run to a national standard, with the same, recognized treatments used in each. That insures the poor patients, who, no matter what a lot of people think, didn't ask to be struck down with these horrible conditions are looked after well, whist the rest of us on the outside are protected.

But even reopening the asylums isn't the whole answer. There has to be a good level of mental health clinics in communities to ensure that those who, through proper treatment and therapy can be returned to society, and helped reintegrate with the kind of support that's missing.

that's just my 2cents worth.


25 ltbewr : It is impossible and not desirable in many ways to return to the government run 'asylums' for those with manageable mental/psychological health proble
26 kiwiinoz : Well, considering your perspective, your contribution is probably worth a little more than 2 cents, (at least compared to our contribution anyway) I
27 Post contains links oly720man : You can say that today about quite a few care homes for the elderly (in the UK at least) that are run as profit making businesses with seemingly litt
28 Dreadnought : That's the Big Question. The difference between someone who is looney toons but harmless and someone who could really hurt you is completely subjecti
29 AM744 : That's the case in my neck of the woods. Regular private insurance policies explicitly precludes mental issues. Even if a facial paralysis is deemed
30 DocLightning : No, but when people start speaking incoherently and babble in this manner, it's pretty unambiguous that they need medication. The vast majority of pa
31 lowrider : There are vast gulfs between what people should do, and what they can be forced by law to do. It is not to far in the past that it was thought that h
32 Aaron747 : Is this supposed to be a good thing? Long-term effects of SSRI medications are still relatively unstudied and kids popping benzos like Xanax or Valiu
33 DocLightning : The difference is competence. I think that being unable to complete a sentence is a bit different than the prejudice that lead to the "treatment of h
34 hka098 : No. I don't want anyone coming after me...
35 n229nw : It's funny that several posters have responded to the statistic about college kids on SSRIs in my post (which I mainly used as evidence that I don't t
36 san747 : I hope you understand the difference between what you experienced and true clinical depression- to me, you seem like a classic misdiagnosis. People f
37 jessbp : I couldn't agree more. True depression has the ability to floor anyone. I know that the worst periods of depression I've experienced in my life have
38 lowrider : It would also require a certain degree of immunity for th participating professionals. Can you imagine the liability in some states if a person was j
39 Aesma : Yes, and that's part of the problem, for at least two reasons : someone who should be committed, at least temporarily, but the family won't allow it.
40 lowrider : Indeed. That is what I was heading toward. By your own admission, your father is not a threat to himself or other people. So what grounds are there t
41 allrite : My father worked in psych hospitals and lectured in psych nursing. He remarked, and I have observed this in interviews, that many who study psychiatr
42 hka098 : Society is never going to stop the crazies that are determined to hurt people. The availability of guns makes no difference. Banning guns, or even mak
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Should The US Shoot Down NK Missile? posted Wed Jun 21 2006 05:10:59 by KC135TopBoom
Should The US Follow Mexico's Lead? posted Thu Apr 13 2006 16:29:42 by Slider
Should The US Moniter Visitors From The Mid. East? posted Mon Sep 13 2004 03:35:05 by TriJetFan1
Why Should The US Pay Terrorists? posted Thu Mar 13 2003 13:12:51 by Virgin744
Should The US Go To Value Added Tax (VAT)? posted Sat Oct 12 2002 20:31:40 by Mls515
Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East? posted Thu Aug 30 2001 10:19:21 by Airic
Should The US Adopt Socialism? posted Sun Jun 18 2000 00:24:36 by Whippy
Should The Drinking Age Be Lowered In The US? posted Tue Aug 19 2008 14:35:51 by QFA380
Is The US Free Trade Policy Flawed? posted Wed Feb 15 2006 18:58:29 by Slider
Should I Join The US Army? posted Tue May 24 2005 08:00:26 by USAir330