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ZF To Develop 9-Speed Auto Transmission  
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2786 times:

Some sources have speculated that Mercedes would be the first company to produce a nine-speed automatic transmission for passenger cars. Instead, it now appears that ZF is going to win that title.
It is particularly interesting that the new transmission is intended for transverse engine apllications, a market ZF abandoned several years ago when they ceased prodduction of their four-speed 4HP series. This move should be considered as a full-force attack on dual clutch transmissions which are gaining ever more popularity.
Finally, the new transmission is going to be produced in the USA, so the US trade deficit might decrase, even if the effect will only be microscopic.  http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/press.../press_release.jsp?newsId=21795176


More info (German only):

http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Qu...gang-Automatik-von-ZF-1175318.html


Exceptions confirm the rule.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2775 times:

The ZF nine speed transmission is scheduled to be built in South Carolina and first used in FWD 1012 Chrysler's.

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
This move should be considered as a full-force attack on dual clutch transmissions which are gaining ever more popularity.

I'm surprised this isn't a double-clutch. And hell if you're gonna have that many speeds may as well have a CVT. My experience with regular torque converter automatics has been horrid on the reliability side. Then again all those exploding transmissions I had were DaimlerChrysler products, doubt that was a coincidence.  


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
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Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
My experience with regular torque converter automatics has been horrid on the reliability side

They have been building them that way since 1938. Most most of them work great!

Quoting A342 (Thread starter):
a nine-speed automatic transmission for passenger cars

I would hate to have to replace that thing $$$$ yikes! I wouldn't want to be the rebuilder either.

Give me a THM-400, C-6, or 727 any day.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Why would you want a 9-speed transmission when CVT's are available? What's the advantage?

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
I'm surprised this isn't a double-clutch.

According to the German article, ZF's reasoning is that a conventional torque-converter automatic is significantly cheaper to build than a DCT.
However, companies like VW, Ford or Getrag have reduced the cost of DCTs by sharing many parts with their manual transmissions.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
My experience with regular torque converter automatics has been horrid on the reliability side. Then again all those exploding transmissions I had were DaimlerChrysler products, doubt that was a coincidence.

Maybe you could tell us the type of car and transmission?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
And hell if you're gonna have that many speeds may as well have a CVT.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Why would you want a 9-speed transmission when CVT's are available? What's the advantage?

CVTs definitely have the advantage of always being able to provide the right drive ratio.
However, they suffer from internal friction losses, and aren't capable of transmitting high torque figures (currently the maximum is 400Nm in the passenger car market). Note that many of them use friction clutches instead of a torque converter as the means of connecting the engine and the transmission.

And finally, quite a number of manufacturers had less than stellar experiences with CVTs in terms of reliability. Just ask Audi (they probably continue to use it in their longitudinal engine, FWD models only because there are few alternatives).



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
Maybe you could tell us the type of car and transmission?

91 VW Passat Variant (took waaaaay more abuse than the Chrsylers though) the others were a 95 Chrsyler Concorde (went through 4 tranny rebuilds)   , Two 200x Chrysler 300Ms and a Dodge Neon (literally exploded, under no warning whatsoever and without any significant stress). Predictably all the chrysler trannies disintegrated at 50K mile intervals  


I actually quite dislike CVTs. On paper they are the perfect tranny. However in practice they are slow as hell. The worse CVT I've ever driven is in the Dodge Caliber. That car is quite the turd to begin with, then they decide to put some slushbox between the wimpy engine and wheels. I always seem to get stuck with one every time I need to rent   


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 6):
Predictably all the chrysler trannies disintegrated at 50K mile intervals


I have had three (3) Chrysler Mini-Vans since 1986. The first (an 1986 Voyager) went 178K miles with no trans problems. The second (a 1994 Caravan) went just 68K miles and I had to replace the transmission with a re-manfactured unit (from Chrysler). However, the re-manfactured unit went 160K miles until the entire van was written off after it was rear ended by a F350 pick-up. My current Caravan (a 2006) has 85K miles and shits just like it was new.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
Give me a THM-400, C-6, or 727 any day.


I have two cars that are equipped with 727's and they are by far the best performing and strongest automatic transmission ever designed and built.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
and shits just like it was new.

excuuuuuuse me?           


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2642 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
excuuuuuuse me?


I could still change it but its too good!!!!


User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
could still change it but its too good

I worked @ a VW Dealer back when the Beetle had an optional "Automatic Stick Shift". We used to call it the "Automatic Shit Stick". Actually wasn't a bad system if you knew how to adjust it correctly.

As far as a 9 speed auto goes, it most likely will be a sealed unit and will have no required service interval. Only if there is a leak or performance problem will you mess with it. If an internal component fails, the entire unit will have to be replaced. Even a dealership will not have the tools or experience to perform an internal repair let alone be able to procure the needed parts. Many transmissions today are unit replacement only. Something people don't think about when looking to buy a new or used car.

Honda Odyssey mini vans have a pattern of trans problems. They'll start throwing DTC's and turning on the "Check Engine" light. Even though the DTC's aren't catastrophic, the "Check Engine" light being on will cause a fail in a state required emission test. So, to keep the vehicle registered, you'll either have to replace the transmission ($3500.00) or the vehicle. I guarantee you that anybody who says they can fix it will charge you at least $2500 and probably won't effect a repair that lasts a year. Transmissions have become so complex with extremely tight tolerances they are un-repairable. Go figure what the cost of replacement for a 9-speed tranny will be.

I question why a manufacturer would want to develop such a beast. Most likely because of CAFE penalties and wishing to present a "Green" public image when the MPG ratings are published. There's no way the consumer will benefit when you consider the increased cost of the vehicle and subsequent repairs.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
Give me a THM-400, C-6, or 727 any day.

Ditto here!
I'll take 474218s' "Torqueflight 727" or Superflys' "C-6" any day over an electronic, 9-speed chunk of pot metal crap.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
The ZF nine speed transmission is scheduled to be built in South Carolina and first used in FWD 1012 Chrysler's.

Ahem, 2012 Fiat / Chryslers'. I would think that this unit is for global production.

So, tell me 474218, I'm just curious. Exactly how do you feel about your awesome '69 Road Runner being the predecessor of a Fiat?     



[Edited 2011-01-24 22:28:55]


474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1257 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

Strange historical asides:

Chrysler once owned the french automaker Simca, which was originally a builder of licensed Fiats in France. Simca never contributed much to Chrysler's stateside operations under it's own name, but the basic technology of the Simca 1108/1204 (sold in the US from 1969 to 1971 in teeny tiny numbers) later became the basis for the Simca-Talbot Horizon, which itself was the basis for the Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon.

Chrysler sold off Simca to Peugeot (along with the rest of Chrysler Europe, which consisted mainly of Simca and the former Rootes Group of England) during the hard times of 1979. Right up until the brand was cancelled in 1981, Simca was building cars with a direct relationship to Fiats past. Fiat 850 people seek out Simca 1000 suspension bits because they will bolt right on, and both cars were favorites of Carlo Abarth. Some U.S. delivered 1000's came with pentastars on the fenders. I think they might have been the first non-Chryslers to carry the Pentastar.

Quote:

I worked @ a VW Dealer back when the Beetle had an optional "Automatic Stick Shift". We used to call it the "Automatic Shit Stick". Actually wasn't a bad system if you knew how to adjust it correctly.

The worst semi-auto I've ever used is the shift-on-the-column Citromatic foisted on many Citroen DS's. Spectacularly more complex to put right than the VW semi-auto (hey, it's a Citroen DS, the only thing not complex about it is the engine). Even when working right it takes alot of getting used to - it's an awkward shift any way you slice it. The whole setup is, like many of the other components on the DS, tied into the main hydraulics. The all-manual ID19/D-Super is much easier for a newbie to drive because of this, but I'm getting way o/t.

Quote:
THM-400, C-6, or 727 any day.

Yup. They may not be the most efficient delivery system but these things are built seriously tough, and if they do break, they can be repaired.

9 speeds? That makes metallurgists and home mechanics cry. Don't we have enough complexity already?

[Edited 2011-01-24 23:18:04]

User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2558 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
CVTs definitely have the advantage of always being able to provide the right drive ratio.
However, they suffer from internal friction losses, and aren't capable of transmitting high torque figures (currently the maximum is 400Nm in the passenger car market).


Which is still a pretty big engine for most cars.

[Edited 2011-01-25 00:08:05]

User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 11):
Chrysler once owned the french automaker Simca

Whoa. I totally forgot about that. I believe that Rootes was also acquired by Chrysler about the same time. Talk about going full circle except now Chrysler is FIAT's bitch.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 11):
9 speeds? That makes metallurgists and home mechanics cry.

Home mechanics? The entire auto repair industry is crying not to mention the owners of any vehicle with a 6 speed + tranny.
Good post dude.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

Big deal, Toyota already made a reliable 8-speed automatic.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 10):
Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
Give me a THM-400, C-6, or 727 any day.

Ditto here!
I'll take 474218s' "Torqueflight 727" or Superflys' "C-6" any day over an electronic, 9-speed chunk of pot metal crap.

Damn right!
I wouldn't be surprsied if this new transmission would be made of plastic.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 14):
Toyota already made a reliable 8-speed automatic.

Also a ZF unit. Toyota doesn't make transmissions. Aisin/Warner, Jatco, ZF, Getrag and maybe some others do for Toyota.

Reliable?
Way too early to say.

Big deal?
You bet. It's like Nigel Tufnels' amplifier going up to eleven.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
I wouldn't be surprsied if this new transmission would be made of plastic.

Ahem..that would be composite NOT plastic!  wink 

[Edited 2011-01-25 02:28:06]


474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 16):
Ahem..that would be composite NOT plastic!

Same thing.
Just like that new outsourced aircraft Boeing is gluing together.   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2486 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Just like that new outsourced aircraft Boeing is gluing together.

Oooooh. How to make friends and impress others by: Superfly!
At least it has a yoke!



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 18):
At least it has a yoke!

That's true.
The other company is copying the same idea too.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 12):
Which is still a pretty big engine for most cars.

Correct, but try to explain that to many of your fellow US citizens...

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 14):
Big deal, Toyota already made a reliable 8-speed automatic.
Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 16):

Also a ZF unit. Toyota doesn't make transmissions. Aisin/Warner, Jatco, ZF, Getrag and maybe some others do for Toyota.

The 8-speed unit used by Toyota/Lexus is made by Aisin, which is a partial subsidiary of Toyota. This was the first 8-speed auto to be introduced on the market, followed by the ZF 8HP series. Both are designed for longitundinal engine and either RWD or AWD configurations.


I see many of you are sceptical about the complexity of this new trnasmission. But IIRC, ZF was able to REDUCE the number of components when they went from 6 to 8 speeds, so the same might apply here.
Also, it is interesting to see that new automatic transmissions are more reliable than their predecessors with less gears, or at least that's my perception.
I've heard of substantial reliability problems with 4- and 5-speed transmissions, but nearly no complaints regarding the 6- or 7-speed trannies which have been on the market for several years, regardless of the manufacturer. Go figure...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2594 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
However, they suffer from internal friction losses, and aren't capable of transmitting high torque figures (currently the maximum is 400Nm in the passenger car market).

400 Nm is probably way too much on front wheels anyway and such torque in passenger cars is only important in "overdieseled" Europe. And as far as the friction losses are concerned, Nissan is claiming 97% efficiency on it's CVT. That's basically equal to manual trannies.

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
And finally, quite a number of manufacturers had less than stellar experiences with CVTs in terms of reliability.

Nissan now has 200k km drivetrain warranty on CVT equipped vehicles.

That said, I drive a Nissan with a M6 tranny

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
has 85K miles and shits just like it was new.

Yes, that's what I think about automatic trannies too  


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 21):
400 Nm is probably way too much on front wheels anyway and such torque in passenger cars is only important in "overdieseled" Europe.

My wifes Volvo V70 2.4D has 421 Nm of torque running through a 6 speed auto to the front wheels, no problems with that cars tranny to date.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

A CVT has even greater pumping losses than an Automatic. An 9-speed automatic will be more efficient, and probably more durable than a CVT.

That's what they are shooting for; fuel mileage. The new BMW 7 (?) speed 5 series gets incredible high mileage. For that and probably other reasons. 32 MPG highway for 2011 528i.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
My wifes Volvo V70 2.4D has 421 Nm of torque running through a 6 speed auto to the front wheels, no problems with that cars tranny to date.

Nice car. My mother has a series of Volvos, and no transmission problems yet. Remember to change the fluid once in a while.

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):
but nearly no complaints regarding the 6- or 7-speed trannies which have been on the market for several years, regardless of the manufacturer. Go figure...

Here's hoping that is correct. The stresses may be lower during shifts and kickdowns, given that the gap in gear ratios is smaller. We have a couple of 6 speed auto cars at the house now (Volvo and BMW). So far, so good.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 10):
So, tell me 474218, I'm just curious. Exactly how do you feel about your awesome '69 Road Runner being the predecessor of a Fiat?



I think its like years ago when someone drove an AMC Javelin or AMX. I asked them how do you like your "NASH".


25 Post contains images ozglobal : Your secret is safe with us
26 MD-90 : But isn't that almost entirely from having a taller top gear? How many gears do you need to justify a lower ratio 5th/6th/9th gear? And the Grand Car
27 Flighty : Yes, but the EPA figures are 22/32. 25 combined cycle. For a large German sport sedan, with 6 cylinders, you have to give the transmission some props
28 Post contains images Fly2HMO :
29 RayChuang : Why go to the complexity of a nine-speed conventional automatic, especially when you still have to deal with the power-robbing torque converter? A com
30 A342 : On modern automatics, this has become a non-issue. For example, on ZF's 8-speed unit, power is routed through the torque converter only in 1st gear u
31 Fly2HMO : It also seems like a minuscle amount of surface area where you'd want friction. Gives me the impression it may be very prone to slipping.
32 Post contains links speedygonzales : On a somewhat related note: Rohloff has a very good description of the internal workings of their 14-speed bicycle hub gear: http://www.rohloff.de/en/
33 Post contains images mayor : Wish I did.
34 N1120A : DCTs are like 75% traditional manual anyway. I don't see how there is much of a difference over a conventional planetary. I'll take a real, 3 pedal m
35 mayor : I've got a '65 Corvair in my drive with a 3 speed manual on the floor. Wonder how many still know how to drive those OR a 3 speed manual, on the colum
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