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Faster Than Flying...without The Patdown  
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12263 posts, RR: 35
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
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Just sitting here watching Obama babble....I will give him credit for that line...it was funny  


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4521 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

It was pretty funny. The question now is, if this high speed rail proposal actually comes to fruition, might this make true what some predicted here: That short haul flying will go by the wayside as people opt to avoid airport-style security?

And then the inevitable question: how long before high speed rail requires the same kind of security? It's bound to happen eventually in this nation, I believe.


User currently offlinewestindian425 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Thread starter):
Just sitting here watching Obama babble....I will give him credit for that line...it was funny  

That was hilarious!! I'm sure the opposition response will praise the TSA...  



God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Thread starter):
Just sitting here watching Obama babble....I will give him credit for that line...it was funny

If it's anything like eliminating oil imports, look forward to the next seven Presidents making the same promise with no progress.


User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

I didn't know a high speed rail was on the agenda...how the hell would we pay for it anyway?

User currently offlineFlyNWA727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2859 times:

The pres spoke about committing to high-speed rail at his last major SOTU address. He said he was going to allot tens of millions of dollars to Amtrak so they can start rebuilding their existing infrastructure so they can offer HSR along the entire East Coast but especially in the NEC. He also talked about HSR from Washington to Chicago and the California HSR network.

[Edited 2011-01-25 19:39:04]


First flight aboard a Northwest B727-251ADV out of BWI Thurgood Marshall Airport, my hometown airport.
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2154 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

1. They will never set aside the money while they are fighting to reduce the budget
2. The TSA will require checkpoints in train stations at some point in the not-too-distant future


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2729 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Couldn't resist another chance to post this as an example of "Faster than Flying...without the Patdown":


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdrr66ycc-E&feature=related

This one was being chased by a jet to film the action....



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):

And then the inevitable question: how long before high speed rail requires the same kind of security? It's bound to happen eventually in this nation, I believe.

I wonder how long it will be before we are subject to searches in our cars. And while walking on the street.

Enough "case law" and suddenly the 4th Amendment is just a meaningless phrase.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

There is no money for NASA and Space programs so how will they find money for high speed rail networks? Run the printing machines?

 Wow!  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinepwm2txlhopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 4):
I didn't know a high speed rail was on the agenda...how the hell would we pay for it anyway?
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
There is no money for NASA and Space programs so how will they find money for high speed rail networks?



The same way we always come up with the money? Buy now, pay later! In part by raising taxes, and borrowing money from other countries.


There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

Even if we build it, it doesn't mean American's who are addicted to our cars are going to use it. The car is more comfortable, runs on your schedule, is cheaper, and isn't shared with the general public and all the undesirables that make it up who you have to share public transit with.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
It was pretty funny. The question now is, if this high speed rail proposal actually comes to fruition, might this make true what some predicted here: That short haul flying will go by the wayside as people opt to avoid airport-style security?

The experience in Europe was that really short-haul flying died with the introduction of ICE/TEE/Talgo-type trains, as well as the Channel tunnel. Probably the only really short-haul stuff done now is by the LCCs - and even they want longer sector lengths for obvious reasons.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 6):
1. They will never set aside the money while they are fighting to reduce the budget
2. The TSA will require checkpoints in train stations at some point in the not-too-distant future

Agree that 1 will be difficult and 2 will happen fairly soon. Seems to me (as an outside observer looking in) that TSA is following the usual growth curve of a self-justifying empire. Footnote to 2 is that since the gruesome beheading in 2008 on a Greyhound bus in my home province of Manitoba, Greyhound are now doing at least a minimal screening function (metal detector with jacket off, pockets emptied) -- but this is only done at the main city bus depots, not out on the line.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2263 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 10):
There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

Is there such a thing as a nationally profitable system of highways and roads? Because many argue that the automobile has enjoyed subsidies in the form of them.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 10):

There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

RENFE and SNCF are both profitable.


User currently offlinethomil13FRA From Ireland, joined Jul 2010, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2195 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 10):

There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

RENFE and SNCF are both profitable.

The same goes for Deutsche Bahn (DB, Germany) and ÖBB (Austria), even if you take the subsidies out of the calculation. I haven't been able to get figures for the Dutch or scandinavian railroads, but I'd guess that their situation is not that different. Maybe our scandinavian board members can shed some light on that.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2188 times:

But hopper keeps parroting that same line. Doesn't matter what the facts are. Those are just inconvenient niggling details...

User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2729 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
Is there such a thing as a nationally profitable system of highways and roads? Because many argue that the automobile has enjoyed subsidies in the form of them.

Further, in many western nations, especially US and Australia, the highway system is seen as a logistical 'no brainer' which has no need of a business case or ROI: everyone just 'knows' we need to invest. As I have quoted before, my friends working in transport governance in Oz advise that 100% of highway wear and tear and therefore maintenance cost is generated by 18 wheel trucks. Cars are negligible as the roads have to be built for these heavy weights. Whilst trucks contribute to the public purse in terms of higher fuel tax etc, they are still getting a taxpayer and private motorist paid subsidized transport network -> Socialism for private enterprise again.

More specifically, to better understand the irrational American popular notions of the relative economics of rail and road, watch the revealing and well documented film available on You Tube, "Taken for a Ride" - How America's rail and street car networks wear systematically dismantled by General Motors and compliant local governments in the 40s-50s.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21496 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Thread starter):
Just sitting here watching Obama babble....I will give him credit for that line...it was funny

It's a fact that for shorter segments flying will usually be slower than a fast train when you're looking at the actual travel time (getting to the airport, check-in, boarding, delays, getting off, getting to the destination from the airport vs. getting on the train in the city center and getting off directly at the destination city center).

It's amazing that many americans are still so far removed from already existing and proven reality.


User currently onlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1659 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 14):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 10):

There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

RENFE and SNCF are both profitable.

The same goes for Deutsche Bahn (DB, Germany) and ÖBB (Austria),

You might wanna check your research pwm2txlhopper. The Dutch Railways are also profitable, 116 million euro's over 2009...



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 2822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

I think one thing with high speed rail in America is that nobody really takes it. Whenever someone at work says they took the train everyone is amazed. Most people fly over long distances or just drive. A lot of the time the prices to fly and take the train are comparable.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I think one thing with high speed rail in America is that nobody really takes it.

Um... maybe because we don't HAVE any high-speed rail, INCLUDING the "Acela." Acela's average line speed from NYC to BOS is 80 MPH. That's not High-Speed Rail even if it runs at 150 MPH for 15 minutes. The standard train takes only 30 minutes longer. In markets with rail service, people do use it. If you live in NYC, Boston, Philly, or Washington, D.C., people take the train all the time for intra- and inter-city travel.

So the argument that nobody uses HSR in the US, therefore it won't be successful, is completely absurd.

For the markets in which HSR is proposed (Sacramento-SF-LA-SD, Bos-NYC-DC, etc.) I guarantee that, if stations are properly placed, they will completely kill air travel in those markets, just like they've done in Europe.

Oh, and do you know what the on-time rate is for most HSR systems? >97%. In fact, for Japan's Shinkansen, average delay for a train ride since the start of the network, including natural disasters, is less than two seconds.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4314 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

High Speed rail just does not make sense in low density regions. That's just the fact. You cannot redeploy a high speed rail line according to loads or season. And in large countries flying will be faster from coast to coast or from northern cities to southern ones... So, large countries AND low population density? They are simply inviable. With some exceptions for sure in localized geographic areas like the United State's northeast or California.

As I mentioned in another thread, the reason railroads worked 100 years ago in places like the USA, Argentina and Canada which built massive systems, is because there were no roads, no air routes and because the countries were being settled that way by immigrants. Once the railroads were not the fastest or only passenger transport method, and when the opening of the frontier stopped, they just simply ceased to be profitable for carrying passengers.

However, they still can work as freight and after the collapse in the 1990s of the argentine passenger railroad many eventually did come back as cargo.

[Edited 2011-01-27 15:21:51]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 2822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2008 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Um... maybe because we don't HAVE any high-speed rail, INCLUDING the "Acela." Acela's average line speed from NYC to BOS is 80 MPH. That's not High-Speed Rail even if it runs at 150 MPH for 15 minutes. The standard train takes only 30 minutes longer. In markets with rail service, people do use it. If you live in NYC, Boston, Philly, or Washington, D.C., people take the train all the time for intra- and inter-city travel.

So the argument that nobody uses HSR in the US, therefore it won't be successful, is completely absurd.

My mistake I meant rail. Yes people do take it for intra and inter-city travel but they don't take it anywhere else.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20246 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 22):

My mistake I meant rail. Yes people do take it for intra and inter-city travel but they don't take it anywhere else.
Blue

Nobody is suggesting that HSR would be used to link Chicago with Denver. But for shorter hops that are painfully long by car and just painful by air, HSR is ideal.

I'll tell you about my very first HSR experience: Madrid Atocha to Barcelona Sants. I arrived at the station 15 minutes prior to departure with my large suitcase (I'd been in Madrid for a month). They X-rayed the suitcase; I did not have to take off my coat.

I arrived at the platform with my suitcase which I took myself down to the platform. I boarded the train with the suitcase and placed it in a luggage rack at one end of the car. I then sat down in my seat, made sure that my seatback was in the full, upright and locked position, my traytable was stowed, my carry-ons securely stowed under the seat in front of me and in the overhead rack, and shut off my phone. I then reached for my seatbelt... wait a minute... there was no seatbelt! At this point, I realized there was no takeoff and I could actually recline (I'd guess 36 inch seat pitch), take out my computer, turn my phone back on, etc.

At precisely 3:00 PM, the doors beeped closed and we pulled out of the station. Over the next 2h30m we raced across the Spanish countryside at 297-300 km/h. At all times, I was free to stand up and move around, read, use my computer, talk on my phone, pay a visit to the cafeteria car, etc.

At 5:33 PM, ten minutes early, we pulled into Barcelona Sants station. I rose, walked to the end of the car, grabbed my suitcase, walked out of the station, hailed a cab, arrived at my hotel, checked in and at 5:53 PM, I was flopping down on my bed.

My next experience with HSR was when I went back to Spain and took the 9AM train from Madrid to Córdoba. This would be a 5-6 hour drive but it is just over an hour on the train. I spent a lovely day in Córdoba (you can walk from the station to the Old City) and then at 5PM took the train back to Madrid. I made the round trip as a tourist in one day. Before 1992 that would never have been possible and it wouldn't be possible if I had to fly it because of the time factor involved with getting to and from airports, not to mention the inflexibility of airline schedules.


User currently offlinepwm2txlhopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 14):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 10):

There's no such thing as a profitable passenger railroad, anyway. Even in Europe, and other countries with high tech HSR, they're never profitable. They're always subsidized by the government to stay a float.

RENFE and SNCF are both profitable.

The same goes for Deutsche Bahn (DB, Germany) and ÖBB (Austria), even if you take the subsidies out of the calculation. I haven't been able to get figures for the Dutch or scandinavian railroads, but I'd guess that their situation is not that different. Maybe our scandinavian board members can shed some light on that.

Rail isn't my interest, but everything I've ever read has made it clear that in general HSR isn't profitable with the exception of a few short lines.

The director of high-speed rail at the International Union of Railways in Paris also agrees.

http://www.freedompolitics.com/articles/claims-1196-rail-speed.html
http://www.heartland.org/publication...s_an_Unprofitable_Train_Wreck.html

Also, stated here

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/006256.html


Railroads like Deutsche Bahn aren't made up of only HSR trains. They have other non-high speed trains as well. More so than the high speed ones. It's my guess that it's those trains that bring in the revenue, and cover the cost of operating and maintaining the high speed trains.


25 ozglobal : In Europe, the train is faster AND infinitely more civilized. The PLANE is left to the EUROTRASH!!!!!!
26 DocLightning : Not written by the director of HSR at IUR. It's written by a guy who claims that urban sprawl is a good thing for quality of life. Doesn't lead to a
27 Klaus : It's exactly the other way around: The most profitable trains are the high-speed ones (there's usually a surcharge to the ticket).
28 Aesma : SNCF is profitable, but RFF is not. RFF is the company responsible for the tracks. It was taken out of SNCF to follow EU regulations, allowing other r
29 Post contains images travelavnut : That's correct for The Netherlands. Every day 1 million people of a population of 16 million take the train. I work in a big law firm in Amsterdam, e
30 ozglobal : This article is full of half truths and sloppy misrepresentations. I don't think he knows the subject but, like many on this forum who are against HS
31 lapa_saab340 : All HST I've been on have been more comfortable than cars. And even at speeds in the order of 160-190MPH you get an amazingly smooth ride, esentially
32 ozglobal : What exactly in your view is so different intrinsically about people in the US that makes them destined to behave in the opposite manner from people
33 Post contains images pwm2txlhopper : I don't know why it's the way it is, but I know over here people don't like public transit and they'd rather drive. It's just the way it is. I've liv
34 ozglobal : I've taken the Aclea a number of times from NYC to Boston and I assure you it is NOT a HSR. It runs on the old tracks and maintains an speed of aroun
35 pwm2txlhopper : Agreed, It's not HSR by other countries standards. There's actually about a 15 minute stretch it goes up to about 120MPH. Nowhere near as fast as ICE
36 DocLightning : The opposite is true. Our government subsidizes petroleum through a number of channels, not the least is a heavy military presence in the Mid-East en
37 Goblin211 : nice to see he's in touch with this stuff in everyday life. i mean after all, he doesn't have to worry about that stuff and this IMHO, shows he's got
38 Post contains images Aloha717200 : I had a bunch of chavs on my train from York to Manchester earlier this year. Got into a massive fistfight that took up most of the car I was in. I h
39 ozglobal : The UK is just another version of the US when it comes to public infrastructure policy and attitudes to cars, public investment and especially HSR. T
40 mirrodie : Faster Than Flying...without The Patdown The dumbest thing he could have ever said. its fast now, until some terrorist places a bomb on a train at som
41 pwm2txlhopper : That was before airline transport took over. After that happened, the railroads were finding they were no longer making money carrying passengers. So
42 DocLightning : That's because there wasn't any high-speed rail to be had except in Japan where Shinkansen was just being developed. This is 2010. Technology has cha
43 FlyDeltaJets87 : If only President Obama was in the position to do something about the patdowns and excessive airport security...
44 DocLightning : Gee, I thought the TSA was under his purview.
45 jetblueguy22 : Technology has changed, but that isn't really the issue. We absolutely have the ability to provide HSR. I don't believe anybody is doubting that. I b
46 OzGlobal : If we only did what was easy, with short term values and thinking, without vision or long term responsibility, then railways would never have been bu
47 DocLightning : That will be NO problem at all. When people step off the train raving about all the pains of air travel that they didn't endure, it will be a hit, ju
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