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Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 2)  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
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This is a continuation thread of part 1, which can be found here: Violent Protests In Egypt (Part 1)

Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in this thread.


Rgds,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
134 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Thank you for opening the new thread.

The situation at El Tahrir Square looks quiet at the moment but it is only a matter of time until things could get violent again.

Strangely, we see no more live images from Alexandria or Suez or other cities in Egypt. There have been very voolent clashes in the se other cities but we only get see and hear about Cairo at least on the AlJazeera in Engliish channel.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6895 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

At least the army is now putting up a bigger buffer zone between the anti and pro crowds.

Let's hope the next time something happens they'll jump in quicker to separate the 2 crowds...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
At least the army is now putting up a bigger buffer zone between the anti and pro crowds.

Let's hope the next time something happens they'll jump in quicker to separate the 2 crowds...



Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently onlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

In response to posts in the last thread:

1. Mohamed El Baradei is so far one of the few public figures whose names have been tied to the presidential elections. I think that it is not too late for him to turn things around, but he must make a real connection with the media and the public now that the initial novelty has worn off. A has-been who I think can safely be written off is Ayman Nour.
2. The escapee in Lebanon is a new development that needs to be closely monitored.
3. There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.
4. Tomorrow is the so-called 'Friday of departure' and is expected to be a significant showdown.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

I am watching live images of the situation in Cairo on AlJazeera in English on the Internet.

They are cosntantly talking about the "pro-democracy" and "pro-Mubarak" protesters.
For AlJazeera English, the pro-Mubarak are the bad guys. The "pro-democracy" are the good guys.

A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?

   Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6895 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

By saying those "dubious crowds" claiming to be pro-Mubarak crowds as "mafia paid thugs" means you're extending the mouth of the government. *Just kidding*

Well, whoever that crowd is... needs to be kept away from the square...

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
3. There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.

Now... nothing new on that one is there (unfortunately).

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?

Currently... anyone anti-Mubarak in Egypt = pro-democracy... *strange eh?*

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
4. Tomorrow is the so-called 'Friday of departure' and is expected to be a significant showdown.

Looks like I'll be watching the TV again tomorrow night!   

Stay safe Omar!



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
1. Mohamed El Baradei is so far one of the few public figures whose names have been tied to the presidential elections. I think that it is not too late for him to turn things around, but he must make a real connection with the media and the public now that the initial novelty has worn off.

Al Baradei is a lying bastard who would hand power over to the MB as soon as he has the chance.

As I said in another thread, Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell. Mubarak at least kept the peace with Israel - the first Egyptian president in modern times who did not start a war. He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again. If that goes away, you can say goodbye to any positive developments for the Palestinians.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I'm sorry, but without any proof, you're just spreading blatant propaganda. You don't think there could be pro Mubarak supporters in Egypt? Mind you, these are the same protesters who claimed that Mubarak told the police not to show up and told the military to stay away from civilians so that lawlessness could spread....in some convoluted attack purported by Mubarak and his regime   . I guess they don't realize that the rocks and Molotov cocktails that they threw at the police and military MIGHT have had something to do with them not showing up. I'm sorry but what crap these anti-gov't supporters spew out of their mouth means nothing. They had the choice of protesting peacefully, but I guess they thought that would not have sent the right message, so now they've thrown their country into chaos.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell.

I agree and disagree. It might not have been heaven, but it takes a lot more than just ousting a so-called "dictator" out of power to make your country financially powerful in the world. That's what I agree on. I disagree in the sense that yes...this was a quasi-dictatorial regime, and the fact that Mubarak wanted to hand power over to his son upon his retirement....well there was something wrong with that, very wrong. I understand that the US is in between a rock and a hard place because they have a great relationship with Egypt, but it's very biased and I don't think Egypt should be a one man dictatorship because he is OUR dictator, that is just wrong and not what we stand for.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently onlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
A great number of anti-Mubarak protesters are from the Muslim Brothers camp.
How can their commentators/correspondents consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be "pro-democracy"?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
As I said in another thread, Egypt under Mubarak was certainly not heaven, but it may quickly be going to hell. Mubarak at least kept the peace with Israel - the first Egyptian president in modern times who did not start a war. He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

On paper, it looks like Mubarak achieved 'a lot' for Egypt. But not really. The tourism market in my opinion, is severely underdeveloped. The overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. Only a relatively small portion get to see what Egypt is famous for. Not to jinx their good fortune, but a city like Dubai gets far more tourism than an entire country like Egypt. As for the 'opening' of the economy and so-called 'foreign investment'. The average Egyptian sees nothing of these things. Instead, some foreign multi-national teams up with an Egyptian investment group and that's basically it. It does not trickle down to the average Egyptian. And the benefits of such things (malls, better airports, global brands) only started kicking in a good 15-20 years after Mubarak came to power. Such things then led to an increasingly commercialized consumer culture that has set unattainable goals for so many.
To summarise, the Mubarak era=30 years of wasted potential.

As for Mubarak 'preserving' peace with Israel. You call that peace? He failed to normalize relations with Israel. We got the Sinai back and in exchange, all they got was an apartment in Maadi to call an embassy. No culture links, no trade links, nothing. Of course, the regime's failure to normalize relations undermined the land-for-peace program, which means that Israel sees no real reason to give up land for a Palestinian state. Again, I see golden opportunities wasted.

Of course, that's to say nothing of the crappy urban planning, the badly planned new cities that Egyptians have been putting up with for so long.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):
I agree and disagree. It might not have been heaven, but it takes a lot more than just ousting a so-called "dictator" out of power to make your country financially powerful in the world. That's what I agree on. I disagree in the sense that yes...this was a quasi-dictatorial regime, and the fact that Mubarak wanted to hand power over to his son upon his retirement....well there was something wrong with that, very wrong. I understand that the US is in between a rock and a hard place because they have a great relationship with Egypt, but it's very biased and I don't think Egypt should be a one man dictatorship because he is OUR dictator, that is just wrong and not what we stand for.

People overestimate Mubarak's abilities as a 'reliable' ally of the US, IMHO. I feel that it wouldn't be impossible for the US to establish a good working relationship with a hypothetical different president in Egypt. US foreign policy in the Middle East assumed that if the US supported 'stable' regimes all would be well. This has backfired BIG TIME in 3 countries that were supposed to be pro-Western, autocratic and 'stable' (Egypt, Tunisia and to a lesser extent Jordan).


User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 3772 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Al Baradei is a lying bastard who would hand power over to the MB as soon as he has the chance.

Care to back up that assertion?


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I'm sorry, but without any proof, you're just spreading blatant propaganda. You don't think there could be pro Mubarak supporters in Egypt? Mind you, these are the same protesters who claimed that Mubarak told the police not to show up and told the military to stay away from civilians so that lawlessness could spread....in some convoluted attack purported by Mubarak and his regime . I guess they don't realize that the rocks and Molotov cocktails that they threw at the police and military MIGHT have had something to do with them not showing up. I'm sorry but what crap these anti-gov't supporters spew out of their mouth means nothing. They had the choice of protesting peacefully, but I guess they thought that would not have sent the right message, so now they've thrown their country into chaos.

Directorguy seems to broadly support the assertion that any supportors are establishment 'associates' (beneficiaries of the regime):

Quoting directorguy (Reply 4):
There ARE some legit. pro-Mubarak protesters. Some genuinely believe he has served the country well (mostly upper-class people who have done well under him). Some believe that he's done his bit by saying that he won't run again in the summer and want to normalize life and get Egypt back on its feet and that Mubarak can be tolerated for another few months. Then you have NDP-hired thugs who'd chant 'Christina Aguilera for President' if you give them a Chicken Supreme and some money. Sadly there are a lot of said thugs.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3673 times:
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Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3):
Let's tell it as it is and not repeat government propaganda: there are no "pro-crowds"; only demonstrators and government and associated establishment mafia paid thugs and plain clothed security forces. These are also the only people who stand to gain by a prolongation of the current regime.

I think it is rather more complicated than you assume.

If all the pro-Mubarak supporters are paid by the government, why is the army, also paid by the government, behaving as it is?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...st/2011/02/201123125548860929.html

"There have been sporadic clashes throughout Thursday, as the army fanned out to separate the two sides and allowed thousands more protesters to enter their camp in the square."

If the object is to clear protestors from the square, why let more protestors into the square?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...gypt-protest-idUSTRE7125Q420110203

"An Egyptian army tank moved against supporters of President Hosni Mubarak as they hurled rocks at anti-Mubarak protesters in central Cairo, prompting cheers from demonstrators battered by overnight fighting that killed six."

I have little doubt that some - many? - of the pro-Mubarak crowd are paid, but not necessarily by Mubarak.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
If all the pro-Mubarak supporters are paid by the government, why is the army, also paid by the government, behaving as it is?

Probably because the army is not monolithic:

- On the one hand, they are well respected by the majority of mainstream people because:

1. They are not the corrupt and hated police
2. Most families have someone either in or who has been in the army due to compulsory national service

- On the other hand, the top brass are the cronies of Mubarak who himself is a former head of the air force. So the top of the military are somewhat aligned with Mubarak, but preside over a popular army with strong and immediate ties to the popular mainstream

Finally, as some commentators have pointed out, the future of Egypt may well rest with the middle ranking officers and whether they look to align with the privileged interests of their superiors or the popular sentiments of their enlisted men...



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3643 times:
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Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 13):
Finally, as some commentators have pointed out, the future of Egypt may well rest with the middle ranking officers and whether they look to align with the privileged interests of their superiors or the popular sentiments of their enlisted men...

Which, as I said, suggests it is rather more complicated than your earlier post indicated.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

From the ABC News site

Mubarak: 'If I Resign Today There Will Be Chaos'
In an Exclusive Interview, Egypt's President Says "I Do Not Want to see Egyptians Fighting Each Other"

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...erview-president/story?id=12833673

Christiane Amanpour is a most outstanding news reporter!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
He made the Egyptian tourist industry grow by leaps and bounds, in spite of Islamist attempts at weakening it, and tourism generates a sizable percentage of the Egyptian GDP. Many protestors are demanding freedom, yes, but "Freedom to destroy Israel"?

Well regarding tourism I' d rather say tourism is not really good for the egyptian people and they are not really benefiting.
Most of the red sea resorts are huge all inclusive prisons, mostly managed by westeners.
Tourists only leave their hotel to go diving or to buy a fake Gucci handbag.
I heard there is a rule saying that 90% of all jobs in Hotels must be given to locals.
At the end the egyptians work as waiters or room cleaners for a insane low salary while all better jobs go to westeners.
If you go to the Hilton or Steigenberger in HRG you will see that from the Chief de cuisine to the managing director all key positions are filled with non egyptian staff.

The Israel problem is a different story, Israel is not able and not willing to tolerate a second Iran right next to their border.
So it is logical that they would like to stick with the current regime.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Says Egyptian President Mubarak:

He said he's fed up with being president and would like to leave office now, but cannot, he says, for fear that the country would sink into chaos.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...erview-president/story?id=12833673

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1691 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

From the article:

1. Mubarak and Jimmy appear to be both in Cairo
2. Mubarak states that it was never Jimmy's intention to run. Mixed reaction to this one; personally I never really thought that his son would ever take over.
3. He claims that there would be 'chaos' if he left. Nah....if he leaves office, Omar Soliman will assume the responsibilities of the Presidency and things can go back to normal. The Parliament can issue him a pardon of any charges leveled against him.
4. He says he's 'sad' about Egyptians fighting each other. Really. Whose fault is that.


User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27034 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

With reports coming in of Mubaraks mob (Police ) rounding up journalists and supporters of opposition parties it seems Mubarak has lied to all and is living in another world. Maybe the Egyptian peoples freedom will only come with Mubarak being overthrown dead or alive .....

User currently offlineSanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again.

Are you serious? They have slowly been building more and more inside the West Bank, and if you read the Palestinian Papers not even if East Jerusalem was given to Israel they would agree to leave the West Bank alone...

Stay strong Egypt!!! Revolutions are not always easy but I am proud of living in a time where the youth stands for themselves!!!! Hope it is the beginning of more to come!


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The only reason the Palestinians have the autonomy they have today, such as it is, is because Israel felt comfortable enough that their two major Arab neighbors, Jordan and Egypt, would not attack them again. If that goes away, you can say goodbye to any positive developments for the Palestinians.

Come on now, don't be using that as an excuse for the plight of the Palestinians.

Israels self interests are solely responsible for that, and no one else.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 10):
Care to back up that assertion?

If you get an response to that, it should be a good one !

Quoting Santi319 (Reply 20):
Are you serious? They have slowly been building more and more inside the West Bank, and if you read the Palestinian Papers not even if East Jerusalem was given to Israel they would agree to leave the West Bank alone...

   Precisely. They are more or less satisfied with nothing less than gaining the whole lot.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 9):
As for Mubarak 'preserving' peace with Israel. You call that peace? He failed to normalize relations with Israel. We got the Sinai back and in exchange, all they got was an apartment in Maadi to call an embassy. No culture links, no trade links, nothing. Of course, the regime's failure to normalize relations undermined the land-for-peace program, which means that Israel sees no real reason to give up land for a Palestinian state. Again, I see golden opportunities wasted.

One thing that is astonishing out of all this, is the fact that so many commentators, seem more concerned with Israels stability, rather than that of Egypt's. Crazy, I mean, who's country is almost heading to a civil war again ???


Differences of opinions are all ready starting to surface from the west.
The US now wants Mubarak gone, and has basically hung him out to dry.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-openl...ds-speedy-exit-20110203-1afff.html

And Tony Blair, stands by Mubarak as 'a force for good' and calls for caution, in calling for him to step down.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/blair-st...force-for-good-20110203-1affh.html

My oh my, how things change. The US has abandoned him and the UK likes him because he has maintained Peace with Israel. That view is likely to anger many Egyptians who believe they have had to endure decades of dictatorship because the US put Israel's interests ahead of their freedom.

I think there might be a hint of truth in that last statement, that's for sure.

Then there is this classic quote from T Blair...

''I don't think the West should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it's been working with Mubarak over the peace process, but at the same time it's been urging change in Egypt.''

Well Tony, a lot of people don't seem to agree with you, and see it as blatantly hypocritical



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2615 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3419 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):
for fear that the country would sink into chaos.

Well, that's what it looks like. Seems to me the people need to take a breather and have some elections and get the right person in----not just anybody because they are power hungry.

Seems like the more chaotic things become the more likely people who thrive on chaos----like extremists-----will end up taking charge. Egypt already has so many poor people. Looting, burning, beating and killing each other are too self-destructive. Its only going to hurt the poor people even more. Already just this week alone their economy has ground to a halt. If they end up with a government businesses don't trust, it will be a long-range economic disaster for the Egyptian people. Just the natural gas deal with Israel is worth billions. And if the western nations feel threatened and cut off aid funding it will really get bad.

Now that the people have been heard, and Mubarak seems to "get it" and will step-down, I think it is time to calm down and methodically hammer out a good plan for Egypt's future.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6461 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 9):
On paper, it looks like Mubarak achieved 'a lot' for Egypt. But not really. The tourism market in my opinion, is severely underdeveloped. The overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. Only a relatively small portion get to see what Egypt is famous for.

Dear directorguy, I don't think it is fair to blame underdevelopment of tourism on Mubarak. The much too frequent terror attacks on tourist sites have been the problem.

Tourism to Egypt has been a go-stop-go-stop business. Over and over again during the last twenty years we have read in the news about a terror attack, and then the tour operators come in and tell us that 30,000 prepaid Egypt tours should call in and have their tour changed to somewhere else or refunded because Egypt has been taken off the agenda. Then a year later we see adverts telling about "Introducing Egypt, one week only $299 and 99 cent all included".

It's not possible to build good business on that.

The present situation is not a terror attack on tourism, but it works the same way. Last week, and every week many months before that, there were constantly 5-6000 Danish tourists in Egypt. Yesterday nine planes brought the last 1500 back home. The tour operators tell us that they have scrapped Egypt certainly for the rest of this season, and they may reconsider when the situation has been "quiet and stable" for some considerable period of time. Same old story which we have heard much too often.

5-6000 Danish tourist doesn't make an industry in Egypt. But consider that Denmark is just over one percent of the EU. Constantly having 500,000 EU tourists less is no minor thing.

Tourist industry is a very fragile business. What takes years to build up, is destroyed in a split second by one single suicide bomber.

That's also the reason why the overwhelming majority of tourists go to Sharm/Hurghada. People who go there, go because of the climate, which is indeed much more pleasant than here in Scandinavia. And then they do not bother too much that they pay for what other sorts of tourist would call "living in a prison", but pretty well protected from potential terror. There are different sorts of tourists, and those going to Sharm and Hurghada are 180 degrees opposite the backpackers exploring Icelandic volcanoes with a rented 4X4 SUV.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Precisely. They are more or less satisfied with nothing less than gaining the whole lot.

But for Adolf Hitler, they might have had the whole lot from the git-go - at least, the Palestinian Jews might have - but that's a long way off topic.

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 TheCommodore : That is part of the problem, if not the problem. The west, especially the US, set Mubarak up to start with. They have blatantly supported Mubarak for
26 Post contains links mariner : I think a lot of Senator McCain's statements recently - about many matters, not least of them DADT - have been fairly outrageous. But heck, the US is
27 Post contains images TheCommodore : Sounds absolutely ideal, I hope it comes to fruition for all concerned. But I see lots of holes, especially with this.... Asked about America's credi
28 Post contains links Aaron747 : Strange indeed. An excellent column here: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=206121 I dunno, it might be very helpful to them to
29 mariner : No. And I'm not sure what you mean by "still open for business." I thought we'd thrashed this out in the other thread. As I said then, there is a gre
30 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : U.S. and Egypt authorities are working on a possibly immediate Mubarak step down. US Officials: US-Egypt discuss Mubarak quitting AP By MATTHEW LEE an
31 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Look at the popular movement on Tahrir Square today. It is huge! Gigantic! If President Mubarak does not decide to step down after this then what?? He
32 directorguy : LOL, I was kind of offended by how often the Egyptian crisis is analysed within the context of Israeli interests. Just because Mubarak goes doesn't m
33 SOBHI51 : Not really, President Mubarak was vice president to Sadat. I am sad to say that the original non partisan youth who started this movement has left Ta
34 MadameConcorde : Thank you for your rectification, SOBHI. I am certainly old enough to know only I have forgotten it. Massive protesting today. I saw during prayer ti
35 SOBHI51 : Lets put this in real prospective. The population in Egypt is about 80 millions, those in the square are about 200K. Do they really represent the maj
36 Post contains links MadameConcorde : I agree. The longer this goes the worse it will get. It seems though that they don't want to stop their protests. Also why would the US order Hosni M
37 SOBHI51 : The prime minister yesterday said that Egypt has 7000 years of history behind it, we are not going to listen to a young country of 200 years, his wor
38 iakobos : Certainly huge compared to stade Louis II on a very good day (18,500 seats), however Tahrir square is about 25,000 sqm, add the approaches and deduct
39 Aaron747 : The UN has not propped up Mubarak through the duration of his time in office - that has just a little to do with it. That and the billions in handout
40 MadameConcorde : This aid money does not give them the right to dictate whatever has to be done in Egypt and certainly not give orders for the President of Egypt to s
41 Aaron747 : In an ideal world, yes, but you present this as if the concept of realpolitik doesn't exist. US aid money, or that from any other country, is not gif
42 MadameConcorde : I don't loan money to friends. I give them the money. I never ask them to give the money back. Either I give money or I don't do anything at all. I d
43 Post contains links directorguy : ued references to our past/history is what is holding us back. There is no shame in being an ally of the United States With all respect, it is the Mub
44 Post contains links TheCommodore : Yes, this is what I have heard to. He is reasonably well respected by Israeli Power brokers and as you say has been involved in meetings etc. He earn
45 mariner : While that may be true of the Shah, I don't know that I would regard Sadat or Mubarak (originally) as "losers" and whatever happened in the previous
46 Post contains links TheCommodore : I'm not only talking about Egypt,as I said in the previous thread. There are plenty of other examples of bad policy in the ME and I have given a link
47 mariner : Oh. There have been a number of articles suggesting that the US actively encouraged the Egyptian dissidents, long before this present situation explo
48 DeltaMD90 : I mean, what can some of us say? I didn't know we were giving them aid, just like the many things I don't know the government is doing. I don't make
49 YVRLTN : Directorguy or anyone - no one answered this question ion the previous thread. Are the main ports of Port Said, Alexandria & Damietta open for bus
50 Post contains links TheCommodore : Ok. I don't have as much time as I would like to read everything on Egypt, as you know there are not enough hours in the day for that. I'm not saying
51 DeltaMD90 : That's difficult to answer. With a 2 party system, you gotta pick one party or the other. The party with the better sounding economic platform will w
52 Dreadnought : What if we got a million people to march in front of the White House, do you think it would be appropriate for, let's say Putin or Hu, to call Obama
53 mariner : All of us can only guess what is going to happen, but I think President Obama is probably right when he says that Mubarak has already made the psycho
54 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : What to wear to a riot: A saucepan lid, a hoodie, goggles and a rose for peace, advises pamphlet for Egyptian protesters Key to being successful, it a
55 iakobos : As far as the ME is concerned, I think this is correct but you need to add Israel to the equation. Nothing really has changed in DC's policies in thi
56 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Major Announcement Imminent From Egypt State TV; There’s A Rumor That Mubarak Will Step Down Business Insider Friday, February 4, 2011 Al-Arabiya sa
57 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : US diplomatic car ran over 20 protesters in Cairo revolution last Friday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt9DXoMmHQs&feature=player_embedded Awful
58 Post contains images SOBHI51 : So a guy steals a car and drive it where all the police and crowd is? Friday there was stil police around. Somebody give me a break. ?
59 Post contains links directorguy : The ruling party leadership has resigned, including Hosni and Jimmy Mubarak. http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurar..._as_head_of_ruling_NDP_party.html?
60 SOBHI51 : No president Mubarak did not resign from the ruling party leadership, the rest they did. As for Al Baradei not attending the meetings, that proves my
61 iakobos : Scenario 1 Protesters are tired, thirsty, hungry, money is running short. From tomorrow onwards, the constraints of normal life take center stage and
62 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak "must stay in office" during a power transition, a US special envoy says. Frank Wisner was speaking as protesters kept
63 Post contains links TheCommodore : A New Zealand cameraman hurt in Egyptian riots , evacuated to London. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10704555
64 11Bravo : I think there are several that do not include "September Elections" I will be surprised if real elections take place in Egypt in September or any oth
65 directorguy : My bad, Hosni himself did not resign. He only made it through because he agreed to some major concessions and made several promises. Many protest gro
66 11Bravo : Really? I see lots of talk and no action by the government. Had he not made "concessions" what would have happened? The Egyptian people cannot remove
67 TheCommodore : Those "concessions" and "promises" are of course I think, just part of the game, stalling techniques so as to appear to be in control of the situatio
68 Post contains images iakobos : I very much doubt this. Washington would hate to see a vacuum. Frank Wisner, the envoy of Washington to Cairo, went public declaring that Prez Mubara
69 Post contains links and images Thorben : From: http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/images/latuff_saudi_airlines.gif You know what's missing in this picture? The blood on his hands.
70 Post contains links mariner : As I said in the previous thread, he will go but I don't think he will flee. My concerns are always for my tribe - "family" - and once I'll again I'll
71 SOBHI51 : Well as expected, the revolution has been kidnapped. Yesterday the VP met with the opposition parties. Same old faces, ideas and greed. No one you can
72 Post contains images TheCommodore : Mariner, what a wonderful thing you witnessed, along side the banks of the river promenade walk in Baghdad, I doubt whether you would see anything li
73 directorguy : The promises he made are partly a stalling technique, and I do believe that he genuinely believes that he can have his cake and eat it too. At the ve
74 SOBHI51 : We do not have to wait, i will tell you from now Either the MB will take over or Sulaim / Amr Moussa will be president, first scenario will be a disa
75 Post contains links Santi319 : Egypt under Mubarak was very much the same against homosexuality as Iraq.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Egypt Any new developments?
76 Thorben : Holy cow: The wealth of the Mubarak family could be as much as 40-70 billion dollars! Has Forbes been sleeping all the time? With that he would be # 1
77 mariner : Although both my parents are British, I was born and raised in the Middle East and obviously went to school there. Based on my own development - and
78 directorguy : The second scenario is probably the likely one. If Sulaiman can consolidate his position and gain popularity then he could be elected president in hi
79 MD11Engineer : One thing they have to learn is that you can have a authoritarian government, which can even be reasonably corrupt, as long as the population gets a s
80 directorguy : One of the huge problems with Egypt is that on paper, it looks like life is improving. We're constantly being told that the GDP is growing,that more m
81 SOBHI51 : Look at the way the population is growing even 10 million plans will not keep up.The poorer they are the more children they have.
82 Thorben : Today there are new protests in Egypt. It seems to be another "angry Tuesday". In Germany there is a lot of discussion about bringing Mubarak for a lo
83 directorguy : Sadly this is very very widespread. It's part of the lack of general political awareness, the tendency to believe without checking facts. All this st
84 Post contains links mariner : At the risk of taking this seriously off-topic, it isn't all about sex. Given the amount of self harm and suicide that exists among young people comi
85 MD11Engineer : China is actually trhe best example. The local uprisings happen mostly because local politicians and party functionaries become too greedy and corrup
86 Thorben : I think the Germany-option is now dead. Same over here. When people really speak open, they come with some very strange conclusions and some very str
87 Post contains links and images Thorben : Pro-Egypt rally in Berlin today. About 150 people I would say. Majority Egyptians, many waving Egyptian flags. Mainly one young man shouting in a micr
88 Post contains links Quokka : In the first part of this thread I wrote: Reports are coming in of the army detaining and possibly torturing people who have attended protests or mere
89 mariner : I don't dispute any of that - but it isn't my point, I'm not expecting legality. Most of my life I've known, from first hand experience, what the sit
90 Thorben : I don't know, but this is far from over. The repression is a lot stronger than in Tunisia. Honestly, I would wan't to be anybody in Iraq right now. E
91 Post contains links Quokka : There is increasing talk of a coup d'etat to re-establish "order" in Egypt. The Egyptian Foreign Minister has made veiled threats in response to promp
92 Post contains links Thorben : Mubarak might indeed be stepping down soon. I don't believe it until it happens, and it will not solve all problems, but it would be a MAJOR step into
93 wolbo : President Mubarak will resign today according to the latest reports.
94 Post contains links directorguy : Thanks for the insight. Latest-Al Arabiya said that there will be a 'good' news announcement tonight that will be 'welcomed' by many Egyptians. I jus
95 Aesma : I've been watching sky news for an hour now, they clearly seem to think Mubarak is gonna step down soon, in fact they're even arguing he's already jus
96 Quokka : Mubarak may be going, but is Suleiman staying? My Egyptian friends in exile are worried that Hassan al-Roweny's assurances may mean that a military co
97 mariner : My friends don't think it would be a military coup because they say, and I agree, that the military has been the de facto system of governance in Egy
98 Quokka : But many of the protesters have not limited their call for change to Mubarak's leaving. They have made it clear that they want him and his cronies ou
99 mariner : Nevertheless, it has centered on Mubrarak, and who can define who the "cronies" are? How far does that reach? And - again - it aooears that it is the
100 MD11Engineer : I think it depends on the enlisted men, NCO´s and lower to mid level officers. The generals will be most likely in the pockets of the government (af
101 Aesma : Well, it will turn ugly I fear... I explain, as nobody was writing the reason : Mubarak is not stepping down and is just making more empty promises an
102 noelg : He's not going anywhere.
103 ogre727 : Oh, what a dissapointment.... I really thought he was gonna go...
104 Aesma : It's becoming pathetic, he's stating how he's so great, while we see the crowd is not even listening anymore and shouting louder and louder.
105 noelg : They don't look too happy. This guy is either completely blind and deaf to all around him, or is just a plain nut job.
106 Aesma : Now it looks like he gave his powers to the vice president, but he said this so quickly it was not very clear, and he still stays where he is, just th
107 Aesma : He gave some powers, kept others.
108 Post contains images AGM100 : Well CIA Director Peneta and the Clapper said he is ... so it must be true . Man ... what a ordeal this has become . I have been watching it as close
109 SOBHI51 : Where did you get that from? One sound of reason, Mr. Wael Ghoneim the uncrowned hero of the revolution is asking the demonstrators to go home and ba
110 Post contains images Thorben : Mubarak must either be completely senile or 30 years in office disconnected him forever from reality.
111 ltbewr : As I have feared, the situation is going to get very ugly for the Egyptians and the world. The decision of Mubarak to stay as the Head of State and gi
112 iakobos : Not. In his speech he stated that he was not giving in on foreign pressures (who else than the USA ?) and even hinted that foreign powers (and media)
113 directorguy : What he's saying is so hypocritical-the demand for him to go are coming from INSIDE Egypt, not from abroad. And then the Saudis say that it would be a
114 Thorben : Indeed. There might be a certain pressure from abroad for "change" or transition, but those millions in Cairo, Alexandria, Suez, and the rest of the
115 Post contains links thomil13FRA : Looks like things are moving again. Al Jazeera and BBC World are now reporting that Pres. Mubarak has fled to his seaside resort in Sharm-El-Sheikh. A
116 SOBHI51 : President Mubarak steps down, the army is in charge now.
117 Post contains links AGM100 : http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/wor.../deadly-egyptian-protests/#slide=1 (In my opinion) ... Muslims at the core are above all Muslims , and not nati
118 Post contains links lhr380 : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12433045 Breaking news on BBC and Sky
119 directorguy : Finally. May today be remembered as the day that ushers in a new era. The Armed Forces will now oversee our transition to a democracy. Today is the si
120 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Well if it is Fox then you can expect some anti Islam poison in there. The Imams in Egypt have no power in politics, but the Muslim Brotherhood do. T
121 Aesma : Good news ! Now I hope they'll find some worthy politicians to replace him.
122 AGM100 : I attached only the pictures of the call to prayers in the square today ... but you are correct , some FOX personalities have been warning of a MB ta
123 SOBHI51 : The problem with leaders like Mubarak is that after many years in power they get drunk with power and can not think or care about could happen if the
124 lhr380 : The first name I think of when you say that is the North Korean, well, he thinks hes god, the supreme leader..
125 directorguy : True, but that was the official name until 1970...was gonna write 'Egypt' but was afraid someone would pick out my error =) Regarding the MB-the MB i
126 SOBHI51 : If any new government starts with Saddam style trials it will start a new blood bath and another reign of fear.
127 Aesma : No need to put him in prison or worse, he's an old guy anyway. Now, as for the money he and his clan took, that's another story !
128 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Another Berlin wall has fallen! Congratulations to the people of Egypt for their courage and determination!!
129 ogre727 : The fact that he is an old guy should not prevent him for doing time in jail if that´s what needs to happen....
130 Post contains links mariner : That was interesting. In the end, the military wouldn't let Mubarak have the thing he wanted most. And, as Jeffrey Goldberg says in the Atlantic - now
131 Post contains links and images Thorben : It really was something like that today. The demonstration in Berlin was at the "Unter den Linden" Street, marching towards the Brandenburger Gate, w
132 AGM100 : Now maybe they should "make it" back to Egypt. It would be very good if Egyptian expats would take their experiences home and begin rebuilding the ec
133 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Swiss freeze Mubarak's bank accounts ! http://www.smh.com.au/world/swiss-fr...-bank-accounts-20110212-1aqx7.html Lets see if any other countries follo
134 Quokka : So we have what some are calling a "coup by consensus". The military council is expected to suspend both houses of parliament and rule with the civili
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