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Aids Denialism  
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

I was prompted to write this after a conversation I had the other day. A person with whom I've been acquainted for some time suggested that I watch an "eye-opening" documentary entitled HIV=AIDS. He then proceeded to go into the whole AIDS denialist spiel. For those who do not know what I am referring to, AIDS denialism is a school of thought based upon pseudoscience which espouses the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, but that AIDS is instead caused by drugs/poor eating habits/bad lifestyle choices/the anti-retroviral drugs prescribed to HIV/AIDS patients, and that it is an auto-immune disorder rather than an acquired immune disorder. There are even those who deny HIV's very existence.

The problem is that so much of their "data" is based upon outdated findings, and many of their prominent members have no credentials as medical researchers. Additionally, they tend to ignore facts at will when they get in the way of AIDS denialist rhetoric. For instance, they claim that people do not die of AIDS, but due to the side-effects brought on by anti-retroviral medication. That's all well and good except that it has a nasty habit of ignoring the fact that AZT was not approved for use until 1987. What about those who died before then? What about those in developing countries without access to medications? They also ignore the fact that AIDS deaths in the US absolutely plummeted following the introduction of protease inhibitors in 1996. Finally, they tend to ignore the fact that every single person who has died of AIDS was also HIV positive, and that no HIV-positive mother has ever given birth to an HIV-positive child, and so on.

While this is a fringe group, there are people out there who have bought into their findings and truly believe that HIV is not the cause of AIDS. As a result, they put themselves and their partners at risk by engaging in high-risk behaviors such as unprotected sex. On a larger scale, South African president Thabo Mbeki espoused AIDS denialist beliefs and was counseled by noted denialist and Berkeley professor Peter Deusberg, among others. This resulted in his refusal to allow HIV-positive pregnant women to be treated with anti-retroviral medications in the hope that their unborn fetus will avoid being infected by the virus.

Sorry to ramble, but this is an issue that really bothers me. That HIV exists and that it is the cause of AIDS is indisputable medical fact. I fear that as more and more generations of young people grow up not having experienced the first years of the AIDS crisis where an AIDS diagnosis meant a death sentence, that they will be vulnerable to theories such as AIDS denialism. After all, it's an attractive theory. This dreaded virus isn't really harmful after all so just go out and have fun, and don't worry about the consequences. Sounds great in theory, unfortunately reality is another thing all together.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

This reminds me of a phrase I use often:

You can cure ignorance, but not stupidity  

[Edited 2011-02-10 16:37:59]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Denialism is a common phenomenon. Certain forms of denialism are SO common that they influence public policy. Vaccine denialism has led to outbreaks of polio in certain parts of the world. Evolutionary denialism is important in U.S. school curricula. And I need hardly mention global warming.

Denialism occurs when an issue confronts long-held beliefs or when acceptance of the new data mean that a change in paradigm and behavior is needed. So if the theory of evolution threatens a religion, denialism will appear. If global warming means that we have to stop driving gas-guzzling pickup trucks, the denialists will almost uniformly drive pickup trucks.

Not surprisingly, most anti-vaccine denialists are terrified of needles.

This article is a good one: http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/

Quote:
The first thing to note is that denial finds its most fertile ground in areas where the science must be taken on trust. There is no denial of antibiotics, which visibly work. But there is denial of vaccines, which we are merely told will prevent diseases - diseases, moreover, which most of us have never seen, ironically because the vaccines work.


User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
You can cure ignorance, but not stupidity

...or put in the way one of my favorite comedians would say:




"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1925 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Evolutionary denialism is important in U.S. school curricula. And I need hardly mention global warming.

I would disagree on that. I am one of far and few between right wing types in public education. I can tell you first hand that my points of view on these issues are VERY rare among public school educators in the USA.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
instead caused by drugs/poor eating habits/bad lifestyle choices/the anti-retroviral drugs

All those things will trigger a weakened immune system.

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
Sorry to ramble, but this is an issue that really bothers me. That HIV exists and that it is the cause of AIDS is indisputable medical fact.

On the contrary, there are hordes of lifelong medical professionals who completely disagree with the 'mainstream understanding of what AIDs/HIV is or is not.

Duesberg, 1993 Nobel Prize Winning Chemist Kary Mullis are among those calling the    on the 'conventional thinking'.

I became interested in this when I wanted to write about another controversial issue in the early 1990s. A friend did 5 years at Manhattan's MCC (Jail) his cell mate was diagnosed with HIV he had the Karposi Sarcoma lesions and all - yet refused all medical treatment (1991) and is still alive today and healthy as a horse. Then years later, my brother return from Iraq and tested positive for HIV (this guy couldn't cheat on his wife if his life depended on it - well yeah he could .. but his religious views are devout - then a week later a 2nd test found him negative, he never panicked.. because he KNEW he had done nothing wrong). So I decide to approach this as with anything of this sincere magnitude the - in same way I took on the Bible.

First, you read it for yourself (I am a devout atheist who owns far more Religious program DVDs) than my ultra religious brother and even today I'll look at any newly released religious piece making any claims of validity - instead of flying off and calling it stupid and ridiculous.

Then I stopped looking at the Bible as a listening audience member (as most people do..) and started reading as a writer...and author and man o man is it a different world. You view a film one way, a writer sees it another way as does the director. All these perspective or pertinent.

I tackled this Aids/HIV subject the same way, and just like the bible there's a sh*t load of money to be made of peoples fears. A disease like AIDs and Heart Disease needs to be tackled in the same manner as if the Nazis were storming Long island beaches. I don't see that attitude in the gov't as it was when the gov't went after polio and small pox. Not even close.

But the key word in the above is .... money.

In the film Love and other Drugs .. the line " The TOP TWO pharmaceutical companies taken in more than all... ALL the remaining 498 - Fortune 500 companies combined. Now if you can't see a problem with that, you don't know your left from your right. As another film 'The Constant Gardner' pointed out.. we are guinee pigs for Big Pharma, and their goal is to make as many humans as possible into customers - one way or another. And to cure nothing but provide medications for addressing symptoms only...but again, NOT to cure anything. Now of course, every once in a blue moon, a cure will be produced, but by then 30 or 40 more newly discovered health ailments will be introduced.

The FDA, Food and Drug Administration.. look into the influence and the grip that Big Pharma has on them -- that alone should set off alarms in your brain. That is the equivalent of the Mafia having a deep-rooted attachment to the Dept. of Justice.

Don't believe me..just turn on your tv and count how many medical products will be broadcast in a span of 2 hours and make note how many are designed 'to treat symptoms' only! Your butt itches, there's a cream or pill for that. Our nation is the most medicated on the planet...we are racing toward a goal line where the prize is being the #1 medicated nation on the planet and there's no one in second place. ....and every other country is HAPPY to be dead last .. they (and whoever #2 is) .. are light years behind.

And indepth conversation I had with a woman who worked at the CDC (5 years) confirmed many of my suspicions..that things aren't what they appear to be. This happen around the time that fella who had some powerful strain of a pnuemonia and took off from the US and was later found in Greece (thsi was all over the news about 5 or 6 years ago. There's some murkiness souround the CDC going's on in the way there ambiguity around the Federal Reserve..most Americans have no idea the Fed is about as federal (gov't) as Federal Express...no connection at all. Although the CDC is a gov't agency.. it is too closely connected with Big Pharma for comfort.

Big Pharma is about gaining 'customers' and increasing 'bottomline'.. not all about losing customers and shrinking profit.

Check out the book The Last Circle, by Cheri Seymour, if you have the gumption to see the dark underside of 'REAL' power and 'REAL' money. We know about the Nazi scientist smuggled into West after the war. We know very little of the Japanese scientists who easily surpassed the Nazis in the arena human biological warfare trials - and who were 'excluded' from war crime prosecutions by the US and given refuge as well.

Nixon's tape conversation (google it and listen) with Edgar Kaiser (yes, of Kaiser Permanente) should shed some light on how much the most powerful 'actually care about YOU and your health. That not enough for you? Talk about people in denial... when you hear the Potus colluding with someone about making money on the 'health and welfare' of it's own citizens..and still 'reason' with yourself that 'it's not quite what it seems...delusion has just availed itself.

Call it all conspiracy crap all you want... but the money flowing thru this trough speaks for itself. And if you understand the true efficacies of real Power/influence/wealth you must reach the conclusion that scams and deceit don't screech to a halt with jewel thieves and bank heist. Scams and deceit are perfected in the ranks of the those with the most bucks - they can make you believe anything want..just like religion. I know we want to believe people are smart..but no, we aren't. Individuals are.. but collectively..we are a mess. We suffer from the worse case of 'information overload' to date.


So you can believe what you are 'told'...

..or you can research both sides of the argument (without the name calling if you can)

..but whatever you choose .. you cannot discount the effect and role that MONEY plays in this (or anything on such a grand scale).. if you do, you might as well try to achieve flight without any kind of propulsion whatsoever.

Conspiracy cannot function amid poverty/or the poor..it's needs money/power/influence to be effective.

If I were stricken with a life-threatening disease...I'd go to the ends of the earth and un-turn every stone seeking answers - not just the conventional route. Listening to some doctor or 5 .. just wouldn't do it for me. (no slam against you Doc Light - infact you come across a lot like my lawyer, the kind of guy who is up on every legal crumb that comes up on the radar .. like super detailed a.net buffs who know every nook and cranny about what is happening in the aviation biz) - MOST lawyers will not go to that extreme...because they 'know' most of their clients are ignorant of the law and are easily schmoozed (and gouged). Sadly, some doctors - these days - are the same way. When I was a kid.. the doctor use to say "Now listen young man, I don't wanna see you in here again....Today, doctors say "See Janene on the way out and schedule your next appointment" and call it preventative check ups aka keep the money coming.


BN747

[Edited 2011-02-10 20:23:07]

[Edited 2011-02-10 20:38:41]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 1819 times:

AIDS Denialism?


Had Science shut up and listened to the early Church explanations of 'the earth and heavens' (as it did for centuries) ...we'd know squat about our planet and beyond.

But science eventually broke free of the religious grip and placed forth hypotheses and put them thru rigorous test upon test - not to see if they were right...but to see where it would lead.

Someone who has his/her life (or someone they know) threatened by a disease which there seems to be few answers and meager concern trumped by astronomical fears ..is not a denialists, they are someone who believes or feels 'there just may be more to what they are told'...if they are wrong, so what! No one can blame them for trying alternative routes to save themselves or a family member. Calling them 'stupid' (particularly when you are not a virologist or biochemist) shows you just who you are..until you land in their shoes... and have find a solution to save someone's or your own life.



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):


Duesberg, 1993 Nobel Prize Winning Chemist Kary Mullis are among those calling the on the 'conventional thinking'.

*sigh*

Why don't you prove it and roll up your sleeve and accept a syringe of HIV?

[Edited 2011-02-10 21:49:50]

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
All those things will trigger a weakened immune system.

They will, but they are not the cause of AIDS.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
Duesberg, 1993 Nobel Prize Winning Chemist Kary Mullis are among those calling the    on the 'conventional thinking'.

The same Kary Mullis who has spoken about his belief in astrology? Regardless, neither of these men are infectious disease specialists, and neither has done much actual medical research into HIV/AIDS.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
A friend did 5 years at Manhattan's MCC (Jail) his cell mate was diagnosed with HIV he had the Karposi Sarcoma lesions and all - yet refused all medical treatment (1991) and is still alive today and healthy as a horse.

And there are those who tested positive in the early 80s and are still alive today. HIV reacts differently in each person, some deteriorate rapidly while others are healthy for years without taking any meds.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
hen years later, my brother return from Iraq and tested positive for HIV (this guy couldn't cheat on his wife if his life depended on it - well yeah he could .. but his religious views are devout - then a week later a 2nd test found him negative, he never panicked.. because he KNEW he had done nothing wrong).

False positives happen. They're very rare, but they happen. That's why they always run a confirmatory Western Blot after an initial positive test so they can be certain that you truly are infected.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
A disease like AIDs and Heart Disease needs to be tackled in the same manner as if the Nazis were storming Long island beaches. I don't see that attitude in the gov't as it was when the gov't went after polio and small pox. Not even close.

The government didn't (and pretty much still doesn't) give a rats ass about AIDS because of who it infected. Had the early cases been amongst middle class straight people, the government would have been all over it. Unfortunately, the first victims were gay men and drug users, and the rest is history.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
..or you can research both sides of the argument (without the name calling if you can)

Please show me where I called anybody names. I have looked at the denialist literature, and it simply does not pass muster with me. Like I said above, some of those denying that HIV causes AIDS claim that AZT is the real cause of immune-deficiency and AIDS defining illnesses. OK, then please explain all of those who died of AIDS in this country pre-1987 when AZT was first approved as an anti-HIV drug by the FDA. What about all of those in Africa without access to anti-retrovirals who have succumbed to AIDS? If AZT is the cause, what killed them? Why are HIV-positive children born to HIV-positive mothers, but not to HIV-negative mothers? Why are people infected when they share needles with HIV-positive users, but not when they share needles with HIV-negative users? What about those who are infected through unprotected sex? Why does that only happen when you have unprotected sex with an HIV-positive person? These are all questions that the denialist literature largely ignores.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 6):
Had Science shut up and listened to the early Church explanations of 'the earth and heavens' (as it did for centuries) ...we'd know squat about our planet and beyond.

Yet here we have science telling us that HIV is indeed the cause of AIDS, and you're telling us that it's all about the money and to look at both sides. Look, I have my issues with drug companies and big pharma, including their refusal to sell drugs to HIV-positive Africans at affordable rates, but AIDS is more than some huge scam perpetrated by the pharmaceutical industry.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 6):
Calling them 'stupid'

I never called anyone stupid. I believe that AIDS denialists are misinformed, but I think we can all agree that there is a difference between being misinformed and being stupid.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Why don't you prove it and roll up your sleeve and accept a syringe of HIV?

   Duesberg won't do it either.

Here's an excellent article by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease that discusses why HIV is indeed the cause of AIDS, and also covers some of the myths that are circulating about the virus.

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/hiva...ausesaids/pages/hivcausesaids.aspx

[Edited 2011-02-11 00:38:49]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
There are even those who deny HIV's very existence.



Tell that to two of my best friends. Both genetic scientists working on a treatment for spinal paralysis. The HIV virus plays a BIG part in their research as it is the only way to deliver geneticly modified proteins into the damaged nerves.

And this method is very widespread in the genetic community. Saying HIV doesn't exsist only proves the ignorance of the person stating it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
On the contrary, there are hordes of lifelong medical professionals who completely disagree with the 'mainstream understanding of what AIDs/HIV is or is not.



If there are hordes I would like to see something more then one scientist.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 5):
Duesberg, 1993 Nobel Prize Winning Chemist Kary Mullis are among those calling the on the 'conventional thinking'.



What does a chemist know about a viral disease?!


The rest of AIDS deniers I would advice; put your tinfoil hat on and inject yourself with a dose of non-exsistent HIV...



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
The rest of AIDS deniers I would advice; put your tinfoil hat on and inject yourself with a dose of non-exsistent HIV...

..this the reason why many here hold their tongues from participating in sincere discussions. The ease of which many here cannot fight their juvenile instincts to leap at the opportunity to ridicule rather than discuss.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
*sigh*

Why don't you prove it and roll up your sleeve and accept a syringe of HIV?

Regardless that infantile cynicism , you're a much more classier act than comment, Doc.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
The government didn't (and pretty much still doesn't) give a rats ass about AIDS because of who it infected.

That's exactly right. And it still doesn't. It goes through more 'motions' than it did..but it could careless and it shows.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Unfortunately, the first victims were gay men and drug users, and the rest is history.

No, the real history (and I saved many of articles printed at the time) The correct list of victims at the time were gay men, drug users (intravenous), blacks and latinos. It had come from Africa and Haitians had supposedly had the highest of infection rates. It was printed in every paper and spoken continuously on every news broadcast at the time. Just what kind of far-reaching psychological effect do you think that had on the groups named as potential carriers vs as those (whites) excluded? A divisive one... a staggering and a lasting one... that's why as you say, OA412, 'they (the gov't) see it as a gay disease'...not only them, the public does too. No matter how many people try chime in and say 'no it isn't, anyone could get it'... no, the divide was established with those 1st reports (which were repeated constantly for years) and the foundation is laid. The minds of the masses are super easy to manipulate and this is but one of many which has played out infront of our very eyes.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Please show me where I called anybody names.

I never said you did. Look above see who has.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
I never called anyone stupid.

Again, I never said you did. Why do you keep repeating this?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
I believe that AIDS denialists are misinformed

You have that right.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
If there are hordes I would like to see something more then one scientist.

Get on Google and youtube see for yourself....and get out a calculator and start counting.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):

What does a chemist know about a viral disease?!


Because at the viral and molecular level it is continuous series of 'chemical reactions'..it's the reason that you wake up everyday... you are aware of this aren't you.


And just as I said... not a single one of you who has responded, addressed the most important underlying issue -- MONEY.


Not one of you. It seems you're all are doing a magnificent job of pretending that it has no role in any of this.


Here's one more opportunity.

With the two top Pharma companies taking in more than all 498 (of the other Fortune 500 combined)....

..I ask, what is the aim of the those two Pharma Companies?


............... 1) To actually find solutions to cure people (not just treat symptoms) and reduces the need for their drugs?



OR


...............2) To keep that mountain of money snow-balling and gain more and more customers?


You cannot have this discussion without discussing the financial motivation (which is in high gear) , it is simply reckless and 'the ultimate in deniability' to even try.



BN747

[Edited 2011-02-11 02:15:39]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
The rest of AIDS deniers I would advice; put your tinfoil hat on and inject yourself with a dose of non-existent HIV...

..this the reason why many here hold their tongues from participating in sincere discussions. The ease of which many here cannot fight their juvenile instincts to leap at the opportunity to ridicule rather than discuss.



I don't shun away from good discussions, and I am very capable of fighting my juvenile instincts. But these are juvenile discussions per definition. The claims that are made by these AIDS deniers are, sorry to say, laughable. And IMHO fall in the same category as other pseudo-science convictions and believes like ID or Creation "Science". There is nothing to discuss here because it doesn't matter how many times it is explained or proven. If people want to see a conspiracy, than they see a conspiracy.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):

What does a chemist know about a viral disease?!

Because at the level it is 'a chemical reaction'..it's why you wake up everyday... you are aware of this aren't you.



This shows you have no understanding about how science actually works. Everything is so specialized nowadays, there is no way an chemist can say something constructive about genetics even though there are chemical reactions involved. It's the same as the ID movement quoting a physiologist about the theory of evolution and then saying a real professor support their claims. Yes a professor that has no clue about the actual workings of evolution.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
If there are hordes I would like to see something more then one scientist.

Get on Google and youtube see for yourself....and get out a calculator and start counting.


You make the claim, you provide the sources. That's how it works.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
MONEY.


So because there is money involved HIV/AIDS is a sham? So broken bones are a sham too? What about cancer? Lot's of money in cancer, so I guess that must be a big conspiracy too, right?



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

And don't forget, if you get HIV infected at this moment you'll probably live out the rest of your live THANKS too science and the pharmaceutical world.

And note; I am not saying it all good and comfy in the pharmaceutical world. Much money is made, and some people die because they cannot pay treatment. So yes, I think there is lots of things wrong with the current pharmaceutical world. But to go as far as too say AIDS is fake, well buddy, that maybe a good movie plot but certainly not the truth.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6572 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
With the two top Pharma companies taking in more than all 498 (of the other Fortune 500 combined)....

WHAT??? Please don't tell me you actually believe what you just wrote.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/full_list/

The largest 5 pharma companies COMBINED don't even come close to even equaling Wal-mart.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
You cannot have this discussion without discussing the financial motivation (which is in high gear) , it is simply reckless and 'the ultimate in deniability' to even try.

Of course there are financial motivations to what the pharmaceutical companies do. But AIDS research hasn't actually produced much revenue for the pharmaceutical world. It's infection rate in the U.S. is still relatively low and there is far more money to be made on drugs for cancer, high cholesterol, diabetes, arthritis, stroke, alzheimer's, etc...all of which are vastly more common than HIV.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 13):
Of course there are financial motivations to what the pharmaceutical companies do. But AIDS research hasn't actually produced much revenue for the pharmaceutical world. It's infection rate in the U.S. is still relatively low and there is far more money to be made on drugs for cancer, high cholesterol, diabetes, arthritis, stroke, alzheimer's, etc...all of which are vastly more common than HIV.

  

And why would HIV be some corporate conspiracy and the Mexican flu not? Or am I gonna regret pulling the Mexican flu into this discussion?   



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):

..this the reason why many here hold their tongues from participating in sincere discussions. The ease of which many here cannot fight their juvenile instincts to leap at the opportunity to ridicule rather than discuss.

No, it's not juvenile. I accuse you directly that you are 1) lying and 2) know that you are lying.

If you believe that HIV doesn't exist, or that it doesn't cause AIDS, then the only way to prove your point is to inject yourself with it and prove that you don't develop AIDS.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2054 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
If you believe that HIV doesn't exist, or that it doesn't cause AIDS, then the only way to prove your point is to inject yourself with it and prove that you don't develop AIDS.

No, that's not scientific - that's infantile. The way to prove correlation between HIV and AIDS is simply to use Koch's postulates.

It has never been done.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 16):
No, that's not scientific - that's infantile. The way to prove correlation between HIV and AIDS is simply to use Koch's postulates.

It has never been done.

asturias

Well, you still would need to infect someone with the virus, you can understand why it's not done ! But I guess it could happen in the US, you could offer it to someone about to be fried on the chair.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

I didn't know AIDS denialism existed until recently, when I read about a particular proponent, Christine Maggiore, who died recently. She was in denial till the end of course, and the sadder part is that she had a child without any special care, who ended up dying at a young age. She also has an organization spreading that nonsense, especially to HIV positive pregnant women, that should be illegal in any sane country !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Christine Maggiore

Holy crap, this isn´t normal denial anymore, this is some kind of super-denial! Well, I guess Darwin at work, but I feel sorry for her kid (I hope you're reading this BN747);

Maggiore's promotion of AIDS denialism had long been controversial, particularly since her 3-year-old daughter, Eliza Jane Scovill, died of Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia and untreated AIDS. Consistent with her belief that HIV was harmless, Maggiore had not taken medication to reduce the risk of transmission of HIV to her daughter during pregnancy, and she did not have Eliza Jane tested for HIV during her daughter's lifetime.[3][4] Maggiore hired a veterinary toxicologist (and AIDS denialist) to review the autopsy report. The toxicologist produced a report attributing Eliza Jane's death to an allergic reaction to amoxicillin, rather than AIDS.[4] Maggiore herself died on December 27, 2008 after suffering from several AIDS-related conditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore

Also her organisation Alive & Well AIDS Alternative;

- HIV tests are inaccurate.
- AIDS is not a major problem in Africa.  Wow!
- Pregnant women should not take antiretroviral medication to prevent HIV transmission to their children.
- The syndrome of AIDS in fact results from malnutrition, mental stress, AZT, recreational drug use among gay men, or other causes.
- The mainstream scientific community's efforts to promote AIDS awareness and develop effective treatments are examples of fearmongering and are compromised by ties to the pharmaceutical industry.

The dangers of ignorance   

[Edited 2011-02-11 10:27:43]


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 16):

No, that's not scientific - that's infantile. The way to prove correlation between HIV and AIDS is simply to use Koch's postulates.

One of which is that innoculation with the causative agent causes the disease. That's one of Koch's postulates.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 16):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
If you believe that HIV doesn't exist, or that it doesn't cause AIDS, then the only way to prove your point is to inject yourself with it and prove that you don't develop AIDS.

No, that's not scientific - that's infantile. The way to prove correlation between HIV and AIDS is simply to use Koch's postulates.

It has never been done.

asturias

uh-hum;


1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
3. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
4. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
5. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Koch abandoned the universalist requirement of the first postulate altogether when he discovered asymptomatic carriers of cholera[1] and, later, of typhoid fever. Asymptomatic or subclinical infection carriers are now known to be a common feature of many infectious diseases, especially viruses such as polio, herpes simplex, HIV and hepatitis C. As a specific example, all doctors and virologists agree that poliovirus causes paralysis in just a few infected subjects, and the success of the polio vaccine in preventing disease supports the conviction that the poliovirus is the causative agent.

The third postulate specifies "should", not "must", because as Koch himself proved in regard to both tuberculosis and cholera,[2] not all organisms exposed to an infectious agent will acquire the infection. Noninfection may be due to such factors as general health and proper immune functioning; acquired immunity from previous exposure or vaccination; or genetic immunity, as with the resistance to malaria conferred by possessing at least one sickle cell allele.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch's_postulates

Koch´s postulates seem to leave a lot of wiggle room....



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 16):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
If you believe that HIV doesn't exist, or that it doesn't cause AIDS, then the only way to prove your point is to inject yourself with it and prove that you don't develop AIDS.

No, that's not scientific - that's infantile. The way to prove correlation between HIV and AIDS is simply to use Koch's postulates.

It has never been done.

Yes, how say you Doc?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I accuse you directly that you are 1) lying and 2) know that you are lying.

I'm a liar?

About everything I've said here?

I'm a liar because I don't blindly support what the 'western' medical industry says 'is so'?


My guess is that you are a very good pediatrician (I believe that is the specialty you practice - I could be wrong). You probably the best MD on A.net. In San Francisco? Doubtful. In California..hardly. But nonetheless, you certainly seem very qualified at what you do and come across very knowledgeable on many things in the medical field.

But what critical element is missing, I don't think you're capable of getting you're head around 'the business'..the very BIG business' at play here. You're either denying it exist or you don't want come face-to-face with it's so many ills because you're afraid that you will be perceived as approving of what Big Pharma is all about. I don't think anyone is that far off the deep end to attempt to link a practicing physician to the near criminal behavior of Big Pharma. So if you can.. share an opinion on their impact in all this.


I've seen 1st hand how screwed up the law is - I was in my attorney's office one day when he took a call, of course i overheard the discussion - another attorney was asking my attorney how to 'approach and question the police officer' when he (the cop) took the stand against his client? Now, couldn't help but wonder....are you telling me that some poor sucker has his future 'in the hands of an attorney who has no idea or kind of strategy ' to provide this person the best legal representation possible? Or even close? And I voiced that specific concern with my attorney immediately after the call....and his response. "Oh that's nothing, you have no idea who common that is...' I was floored.


I have a girlfriend who looks like a fashion model but who spends most of her days in OR's (surgical operating rooms) at various hospitals...why? Because she's a top 'surgical supply salesperson'..she observes the applications of her instruments and those of her rivals. The things she shares with me about what surgeons share with her and her observations are just appalling.

What i'm getting at, is the impact of 'financial incentive' and the role it plays in anything where the stakes are big. But it gets worse. I was recently talking to a friend who owns a computer retail store. We were discussing bribery and corruption in the US versus Mexico (and the world actually) and he shed some light on an aspect I would never think possible - prior to him opening his shop, he had formed a company with spouse of a celeb (many of us would know the name immediately) but he goes on to tell how they had obtained contracts to set up IT systems when certain LAUSD (LA Unified School District) locations - from the Valley all the way down to San Pedro (the LA shipping harbor next to Long Beach harbor). He disclosed on near 'every occasion' it was the decision of the 'school location' principal whether to go with the system installs or not. And in the major of those cases - many of the school principals asked 'what is my cut?' -- THAT ..blew me away. I could not believe that high school and middle school principals are shaking down businesses to line their own pockets - students concern/welfare be damned! That discussion was a few months ago ... and I'm still in disbelief!


I expect Big Pharma and billion and trillion dollar industries to be deeply mired in murky conspiratorial behavior...but not simple school systems.

My bottomline is that my life of observation (from to film industry to how state/county/city airport systems) to the Main Stream Media to Wall Street to Congressional conduct to the incidents I just mentioned...I see one common corruptible thread - MONEY. And the Medical Industry is no exception. To argue that it is ...is insanity. Google the story of the doctors who were 'watering-down' Cancer meds to further increase their profits (in the St Louis area I believe)...do you think for minute that jsut because you 'hear' about one incident..that's the only one that occurred???

The obvious is, the best way scam people is to get the believe in you whole-heartedly..to not question your judgement and motivations nor your practices.. to simply just trust you. And that's why these things are allowed to happen and expand, because too many here pretend that 'everything' is on the level and kosher.

It isn't.

and I'm not lying.

Those are just my personal observations. Regardless of how many of you feel that the impact of financial motivation is a non-factor, I beg the differ..it is the primary and driving factor behind Big Pharma and their strive to keep growing their bottomline..truth in health care -- be damned. I believe there are 1000s of good doctors like Doc Lightning out there and just as their are bad cops and lawyers..there are also some bad doctors (have seen proof of that). But they aren't the target of this discussion. It is the driving force now governing the medical industry, Big Pharma and their influence on the CDC and dictating the national and global discussion on HIV/AIDS, Heart Disease, Cancers, you name it.

I question their ethics and I know all to well what people are capable of for large amounts of money, they literally, figuratively will sell their souls for it and throw you and me under the bus to achieve their profits. Why do yo think thye hate 'whistle blowers' so much. Because they usually ... are telling the truth. Which many here don't want to know about.

The AIDS deniers (and any other medical cause) have every right to cross check and question Big Pharma and the medical industry, because pursuit of greater health has gotten away from caring doctors and is now spearheaded by the Pharmaceutical Industry. As the OP pointed out 'it's a gay disease'..if it's truly perceived that way...just what 'event' occurred that made those in-charge 'suddenly' care or give a damn about these people and their plight? At what point did they stop and suddenly say to themselves ' y'know we're looking at this wrong...we do care about these people"...they didn't and they don't. It doesn't take much to pretend you care or that you are concerned. Ever meet a lawyer who pretends he likes you, that he/she really cares about you. Some doctors are so good at making you 'think they care'...so much so, that the Oscars should have a category for them...they're that damn good! As far as HIV/AIDs I do believe that many doctors do care..they are just in no position to 'course correct' or dictate agenda to Big Pharma. One thing is for sure, Big Pharma is calling the shots and driving the bus..and they are highly motivated by their financial standing above all other factors. Big Pharma are not doctors, they hire the scientist to create whatever they crank out. Doctors are simply on the receiving end of their products. It's the money-driven Big Pharma end of the equation that I suspect the most.




BN747

[Edited 2011-02-11 12:02:43]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1509 times:

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
That HIV exists and that it is the cause of AIDS is indisputable medical fact.

The only medical "fact" is death. You can make statements with a great degree of certainty, and make sound correlations, but there is very little in medicine that is an indisputable fact.

Quoting OA412 (Thread starter):
I fear that as more and more generations of young people grow up not having experienced the first years of the AIDS crisis where an AIDS diagnosis meant a death sentence, that they will be vulnerable to theories such as AIDS denialism. After all, it's an attractive theory.

Well I for one certainly missed most of the early pandemic having been born in 1986, yet I still was bombarded with Safe Sex Messages.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
The government didn't (and pretty much still doesn't) give a rats ass about AIDS because of who it infected. Had the early cases been amongst middle class straight people, the government would have been all over it. Unfortunately, the first victims were gay men and drug users, and the rest is history.

Which just goes to show that a lack of education is the biggest problem with AIDS. Only the EARLIEST cases were exclusive to gay men, and even that was because they were just the first to be reported due to their initial geographic proximity and the ridiculous social stigma that is often attached to homosexuality. Very quickly they observed that there were other populations infected, but as with any major news story it's the initial headline that people remember. Worldwide more women have HIV/AIDS than men, and in the United States black women are only a few ticks behind gay men in incidence of infection, and the gap is fast closing.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
What does a chemist know about a viral disease?!

...obviously more than you know about what a chemist studies and is qualified to do...There are multiple facets of chemistry, many of them medically-oriented. Also, a virus is technically not a living pathogen. It's a little pile of--wait for it--chemicals.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6572 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
The AIDS deniers (and any other medical cause) have every right to cross check and question Big Pharma and the medical industry, because pursuit of greater health has gotten away from caring doctors and is now spearheaded by the Pharmaceutical Industry.

But what you are missing is how Big Pharma is actually making money from HIV/AIDS? I think you'd be pretty surprised how little money HIV/AIDS has produced for the pharmaceutical industry.

You've yet to provide a SHRED of evidence for your beliefs.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 25, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
The AIDS deniers (and any other medical cause) have every right to cross check and question Big Pharma and the medical industry, because pursuit of greater health has gotten away from caring doctors and is now spearheaded by the Pharmaceutical Industry.

But what you are missing is how Big Pharma is actually making money from HIV/AIDS? I think you'd be pretty surprised how little money HIV/AIDS has produced for the pharmaceutical industry.

You've yet to provide a SHRED of evidence for your beliefs.

And you, yours! Human greed, a known characteristic is evident in my observations. Yours is faith that people will do the right thing. Since you believe what you wrote ... then what area do you suppose their astronomical profits derive? Cancer drug medications? Anti-depressant drugs? Alheimer meds? What?

My charge (as plainly stated)...as that they are making trillions across the board, HIV/AIDs drug sales are but a single component of income of which their are many. I don't suppose there any actual disclosing documentation of what Big Pharma's cost/margin/yields on AIDs drugs or any other drugs for that matter...if you know, speak up. And if their were..and their accountants produced them? I'd say they went to same same school as Hollwyood Studio accountants - wink wink-

But what can't be argued is that their profits are staggering!

Are they in the business to save lives? Or to make money? I know they like to be perceived as 'saving lives'.. thus the nice rosey commercials you consume. And too which most respond.

What else can't be argued is their aim appears to be a constant pursuit of 'symptomatic treatment'..versus actual cure driven goals. Because cures eliminate the need for continued sales. No car salesman wants a car that last forever..he needs you to keep coming back. So does Big Pharma...thus a cure for anything is not in their profitable 'best interest'


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
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