The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that now, car insurers can't charge men more just down to being male (and therefore apparently running over and killing everybody they see, apparently....).
Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers? I've seen some pretty terrible female drivers as well as males, in all fairness.
Also, what will this mean for insurers like Sheila's Wheels? They're a female only insurer, and surely now they're going to get it in the neck too?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15751 posts, RR: 48 Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1851 times:
Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter): Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers?
Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.
ALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1143 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1837 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2): Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.
I'm sure there is, but that is the cost of saying everything is discrimination.
One of these days, we'll put cockroaches on trial because they scare woman more than men.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16840 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1820 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.
Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13347 posts, RR: 64 Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1800 times:
But on the other hand private pension insurances will become more expensive for men. Since women live on average longer than men, and thus draw a pension for a longer period, men had to pay lower premiums.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7796 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1766 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4): Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
My parents didn't leave me with a $50 million trust fund but my neighbor's did. It's not fair!
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11370 posts, RR: 50 Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1754 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2): Wouldn't that be born out in the insurance data? I can't imagine insurance companies are just picking on males for the fun of it. There's gotta be reams of data supporting the higher premium for young men.
Hopefully. Just as the data says that, being of a 'certain' age, I'm a safer driver than a 17-yo (male or female).
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4): Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
Who's 'punishing' anyone? To the insurance companies, a young man represents a significantly greater risk than a 50-something man. When that young man proves he's a careful driver (by not having accidents resulting in claims), then his insurance premiums will fall. I don't see anything unfair about it. And, if women drivers are less of a risk than men, by all means they should have lower premiums. In this instance, the law is an ass.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15751 posts, RR: 48 Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1746 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4): Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
According to some quick googling, the accident death rate for teenage male drivers is almost double that of females. This ruling seems to punish safe female drivers, more than anything, while subsidizing the bad behavior of male drivers.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 7): Hopefully. Just as the data says that, being of a 'certain' age, I'm a safer driver than a 17-yo (male or female).
That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2439 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1738 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 7): When that young man proves he's a careful driver (by not having accidents resulting in claims), then his insurance premiums will fall.
I don't know how long is this "proving period", but around here it's until 25 year's of age. Who starts driving as 17 years old, will pay a price of a new car in premiums over this period...
Quoting scbriml (Reply 7): And, if women drivers are less of a risk than men,
I'd really would like to see statistics proving that. Not only in absolute numbers, but let's say in number of accidents caused per 100000 km driven.
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11370 posts, RR: 50 Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1729 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8): According to some quick googling, the accident death rate for teenage male drivers is almost double that of females.
Exactly. Statistically, they're safer drivers than their male counterparts. They should pay less for insurance as they're a lower risk.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8): That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?
It's not discrimination. It's experience and statistics. If I started driving at 50, I'd expect to get the same premiums as a 17-yo. However, as a 50-odd who's been driving for over 30 years (only one claim in that time), I'd be outraged if my premiums were the same as a 17-yo who passed his driving test yesterday.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 9): I'd really would like to see statistics proving that.
Try doing what MaverickM11 did. I have no doubt whatsoever that the only reason female insurance premiums are lower is because they're safer drivers than their male counterparts. Insurance companies are normally very good at evaluating risk.
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2598 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
What this example demonstrates is the need of the courts to maintain a hierachy of values representing the Common Good and not just zeroing in on a single value, influenced by the latest wave of political correctness.
The values at stake here are:
- The right of all people to be considered equally and fairly
- The right of businesses dealing in risk to 'deal in risk'
- The duty of the individual to responsible behaviour toward the rest of society
- Equality of the dignity of persons as male and female
- We could add the same for age in other examples
Use cases:
- I as a person of whatever gender or age have a RIGHT to be considered EQUALLY when applying for goods and services and not be UNJUSTLY discriminated against on the a priori basis of gender, age or whatever
- I as an Insurance company have a RIGHT as an entity to conduct business proposing offers adapted to the market needs. Insurance companies deal in risk and must be allowed to do so in setting premiums or they will exit the market. Then the state would have to replace insurance companies and disregard risk in setting premiums.
- An insurance company is someone you pay to take over some of YOUR risk. You are buying some financial peace of mind. In setting an appropriate premium, the insurance company must factor in your risk profile based on objective data. For life insurance, this includes a medical. If you have pancreatic cancer, it is not very realistic to expect the company to take on your risk which is now a near certainty of impending death for the same monthly premium as a 21 year on in perfect health and family medical history. This is a case of JUST DISCRIMINATION
- In the same way, a young man objectively has a 100% or more greater chance of serious harm to himself or others on the road IN GENERAL that a young woman.
- Therefore, the premium setting higher for young men is discrimination, but just discrimination.
What do you think job interviews are for? To justly discriminate between candidates.
We have become sloppy in our language and thinking and equated all discrimination with un-just discrimination. It is not the same thing. One is morally right, the other morally wrong...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1635 times:
I'm torn. It is clearly discriminatory to use this generalized risk pool type thinking, when you do have good drivers who happen to be young men and some Maverick-with-hair-on-fire young ladies. That said, the statistics are reliable and well borne out. Then again, I generally despise insurance companies and their behavior, so its hard to defend anything they do.
Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):
Do you think this ruling is fair, or are women genuinely better drivers? I've seen some pretty terrible female drivers as well as males, in all fairness.
The issue is that the stereotypes some have about female drivers (I don't) are generally not those that cause major accidents resulting in costly payouts. The well studied risk pool behavior of young male drivers, on the other hand, does.
Quoting ajd1992 (Thread starter):
Also, what will this mean for insurers like Sheila's Wheels? They're a female only insurer, and surely now they're going to get it in the neck too?
I think that this ruling will force them to insure men.
Yeah, and to hell with protecting people from racist action as well. Not to mention sexual harassment.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
That's discrimination too; wouldn't that be illegal under this ruling as well?
Age discrimination, both ways, has always been treated with lower scrutiny than gender discrimination.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 9):
I'd really would like to see statistics proving that. Not only in absolute numbers, but let's say in number of accidents caused per 100000 km driven.
One of the things that goes into the risk pool is how much someone drives.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 11):
I did. And guess what, only numbers per 1000 drivers were available. Not per distance driven.
This includes statistics from an Australian study.
Excerpt:
"In spite of the relative differences in the rates of change, men still have a considerably higher fatality rate than women. In 1995, the fatality rate for male car drivers (0.76 deaths per 100 million km) was 1.64 times higher than that for female car drivers (0.46). However, the differential between men and women decreases for less severe crashes. In fact, the rate of hospitalisation of female car drivers (8.35 per 100 million km driven) is 1.15 times higher than that for men (7.35 per 100 million km driven)."
This makes a lot of sense. 64% higher fatality rate per 100 million km driven for men. The 15% higher hospitalization rate for women in less severe crashes is also understandable, for various reasons, including smaller size, societal leanings and awareness. The thing is, death payouts are often significantly higher than non-fatality, so the risk is rated differently.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Tu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 904 posts, RR: 19 Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1625 times:
Ok, I don't know if I was singled out for being a young male, but when I went to Canada (Ontario, to be exact) to study when I was 19, I bought myself a 740iL BMW, and I almost crapped myself when I went to the insurance company! They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance. It was much cheaper than shelling out $279 a month. I never had an accident that was my fault (had a jackass run into me and with quick-thinking avoided several jackasses running into me). So why the hell did they want to charge me that much??? By contrast, for the last year of my study, I bought a E class Mercedes in the US, Virginia to be exact, at this time I was 21, still in the bullshit "risk category". I insured it in Virginia, kept it registered there (retained the kickass personalised plates that would have cost me over 200 in Ontario but only cost $15 in Virginia). And guess what? $79/month. For the fun of it, when I got to Canada I went to an insurance company and asked them how much it would cost to insure it...well, $243.
What the hell is going on with these guys? Are you telling me that a 21 year old driver in Canada is 4 times more likely to crash than in Virginia? Yeah, sure.
Another bit of contrast for you: In Russia insurance companies are not allowed to discriminate, I pay about $200/year on a 1973 Volga.
Can anyone explain? Oh, and I went to several insurance companies, the price varied by about $10. Cartel, anyone? In the states, Allstate gave the best rate, by quite a bit and it also included free towing and roadside assistance. The insurance in Canada? No services and the service itself was something along the lines of: be happy I'm giving you this rate.
[Edited 2011-03-02 16:01:02]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
Quokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1550 times:
Of course it is discrimination to impose higher premiums based simply on whether the driver is male or female. Whether it is statistics based or not, the question was whether such discrimination is lawful.
Yes, statistically young men have a higher representation in motor vehicle incidents and fatalities. That is why in a number of jurisdictions insurance companies were (and still are in some) exempted from some provisions of Equal Opportunity legislation . But the statistics do not prove that a particular individual will actually have more accidents than anyone else. They merely suppose that he will. It is pure conjecture. And up to now it has been seen to be lawful. The EU court has now stated that it is not.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6): My parents didn't leave me with a $50 million trust fund but my neighbor's did.
That was nice of your neighbours to establish a trust fund for you.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8493 posts, RR: 43 Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1535 times:
This is so utterly absurd its almost hilarious!
But let's forget that for a second and skip right to the more practical. So let's see, because of apparently biological reasons, men pay more in auto insurance. Because of biological reasons, women tend to get paid less than men. There are numerous examples going back and forth. Same thing applies to "age discrimination", goes back and forth.
Are we gonna nitpick every single one or can we just call it even and avoid lawyer fees?
This type of discrimination isn't only rational, it's perfectly desirable.
[Edited 2011-03-02 19:33:57]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
EDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1468 times:
Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14): They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance
If this had happened to you in the UK, your vehicle would have been seized, you would have been fined (much more than $70) and several penalty points on your licence. You would also not be able to licence the vehicle, which when I was last in the UK had to be done at least annually.
AirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 260 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1449 times:
Quoting Tu204 (Reply 14): Ok, I don't know if I was singled out for being a young male, but when I went to Canada (Ontario, to be exact) to study when I was 19, I bought myself a 740iL BMW, and I almost crapped myself when I went to the insurance company! They wanted $279/month CDN for LIABILITY insurance, not full coverage. Of course I used the policy to get the license plates, cancelled it after the first month and drove around with no insurance for two years. When I got stopped by the police, I just paid the $70-something fine for not presenting my insurance.
Not sure when you were a student in Ontario but the fine for not having auto insurance in Ontario now starts at $5000 and can go up to $25 000. For a second offence the fine starts at $10 000 and can go up to $50 000. Even on the first offence you can have your car impounded for up to three months and have your licence suspended for up to a year.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4): Yes, but punishing a responsible, careful, young man just for having testicles is also not fair.
I agree I am happy with this ruling. Unfortunately, I don't live in the EU. But as an example my brother and a female friend I have, have both been driving about the same length of time, my brother is accident free. My friend has unfortunately had 3 accidents, one of which was pretty major and resulted in her car being written off. (Lucky for her she just got a new one from her parents so she is still on the road...) Why should my brother have to pay nearly the same price for insurance that she now does when he is accident free?
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3196 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1438 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 10): Statistically, they're safer drivers than their male counterparts
You can't argue with statistics. This is how insurance works. Saying this is discrimination is like arguing against facts.
This is all highly ridiculous.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 13): Then again, I generally despise insurance companies and their behavior, so its hard to defend anything they do.
You won't even have to in this case. That's the best thing yet about this entire charade. The only winners are the insurance companies, the very ones who were accused of discrimination.
Since it's perfectly clear that the insurance rates for men won't come down a bit, they will simply raise those of women to the levels of those of the opposite sex, this ruling being the proverbial soap to wash their hands with.
They will be laughing all the way to the bank, and I won't even blame them as this a perfect example of the levels of wasteful bureaucracy the EU has bogged itself into. They're not able to determine and enforce a single monetary policy for all the member nations, leading to economical catastrophes like those in Greece, Ireland and Portugal, but when it comes to nitpicking on so-called driver sex discrimination and other superfluous legal details and telling us all how to build our houses, which lightbulbs to buy and how to dispose of our garbage, they're champions.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
Tu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 904 posts, RR: 19 Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1432 times:
Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 19): Not sure when you were a student in Ontario but the fine for not having auto insurance in Ontario now starts at $5000 and can go up to $25 000. For a second offence the fine starts at $10 000 and can go up to $50 000. Even on the first offence you can have your car impounded for up to three months and have your licence suspended for up to a year.
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 18): If this had happened to you in the UK, your vehicle would have been seized, you would have been fined (much more than $70) and several penalty points on your licence. You would also not be able to licence the vehicle, which when I was last in the UK had to be done at least annually.
Yes, however when I was stopped I said that I did not have my insurance WITH me. So the ticket was "not presenting insurance" not "not having insurance". I got two of those in the two years. Both times I was stopped "just because" and was not given any other ticket. I had 3 days to present my insurance to the police station or pay the fine. I went there a week later and paid the fine.
I didn't really have much of a choice because that insurance was way too expensive and using the useless public transport (in a pretty large city, I might add) was not an option.
Here's another comparison for you. During my pilot training, me and a couple other students bought a Cherokee 140 to train on. We insured it for I think $40,000 with a $3k deductible, at that time I did not even have a PPL and maybe about 20 hours. The insurance cost was something like $2300 for a year, soo thats less than $200/month for 1) an aircraft, 2) 3 mln Liability coverage vs. 1mln on the car and 3) The aircraft was covered for $40,000 vs 0 for the car.
What The Hell?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5306 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1417 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 20): That's the best thing yet about this entire charade. The only winners are the insurance companies, the very ones who were accused of discrimination.
Since it's perfectly clear that the insurance rates for men won't come down a bit, they will simply raise those of women to the levels of those of the opposite sex, this ruling being the proverbial soap to wash their hands with.
The same deal happened with hair cuts in Sweden, women complained that they were paying more for a haircut than men, the Swedes decided this was discriminatory, haircuts should cost the same regardless of gender, the price for mens haircuts we up.
pilotsmoe From United States of America, joined May 2005, 248 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1336 times:
I don't see what the big deal is here. Women pay alot more for health insurance because pregnancies are expensive. It's just statistics.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5306 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1313 times:
Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 23):
I don't see what the big deal is here. Women pay alot more for health insurance because pregnancies are expensive. It's just statistics.
Only if you live in the US. In most civilised countries the state pays for all expenses related to bringing a future taxpayer into the world.
25 Tu204: True. When my son was born 6 months ago, not only did we get free quality healthcare, but also we got a cheque for about $2500 that helped buy all of
26 PPVRA: Isn't car insurance in Canada handled by the provincial governments?
27 WildcatYXU: Not everywhere. It is in British Columbia. Alberta and Ontario have private insurance (pretty expensive that is), Quebec has a government/private com
28 Tu204: So do you have any theory atleast as to why car insurance is 2x more expensive than aircraft insurance and 4 times as expensive as it is in the U.S.?
29 WildcatYXU: Honestly, I have no idea. I'd add some more items that are substantially more expensive than in the US: -fuel -houses -food -clothing -shoes -booze -
30 Tu204: Why? I can understand booze and cigarettes. And air service. However, do Canadians ask themselves why !twice! the price they are AFTER taxes and insu
31 KiwiRob: Makes one wonder if the US is a civilised as people like to think it is.
32 AirCanada787: Ah now I understand. I would argue however that paying for insurance is all part of the cost of owning a car, I don't mean to single you out at all b
33 scbriml: How mature. Another reason why honest, safe drivers pay way too much for their insurance. Thanks.
34 Tu204: I understand. However, with the amount of taxes the Canadians pay, public transit should be there. It isn't. I lived in Ottawa. Without a car it is i
35 signol: It has often been said that men cause more accidents than women. I would argue that this is because of the vehicles driving, more are being driven by
36 pilotsmoe: Why should I have to subsidize someone's medical procedure?
37 Asturias: There is no EU court of human rights. The European Court of Human Rights has as much to do with the EU as EBU. asturias
38 N1120A: Marginal No. Especially comparing big cities. Marginal. Not so much anymore. The clothing companies have closed the gap on cross-border pricing with
39 WildcatYXU: If you really believe this, I have a fantastic business proposal. It's called the McKay bridge in Halifax... Last time I filled up in the US the diff
40 N1120A: Where was that? And did you convert at 4 = 1? If you did, you didn't convert correctly and added 5.5% right there. Which Canadian city of 2.2 million
41 Pyrex: So at 19 you could afford a BMW 740 Li to drive around campus but couldn't afford insurance? And it never occurred to you to buy a car more appropria
42 N1120A: Yeah, because the post office is terrible. And planes are falling out of the sky. Then how come the average cost of car insurance in Vancouver is les
43 KiwiRob: I've been asking the same question here in Norway, where people happily pay several times more for all sorts of things than other Europeans do. My co
44 scbriml: Are you suggesting that the insurance companies simply swallow the costs incurred as a result of uninsured drivers out of the goodness of their heart
45 Pyrex: I suggest you go in the bathroom and take a good look at the mirror. The answer is obviously "lawyers". Everything that in the U.S. risks ending up i
46 L410Turbolet: How about buying a car that you could actually afford? And yes, "afford" includes being able to insure it for the bare minimum required. Quite an att
47 WildcatYXU: Hey, I know very well how to convert medieval units to modern ones C'mon man, since when is Toronto on the west coast? I'm talking about Vancouver. A
48 Tu204: I bought a 1999 740iL for I think around $6500 if I recall correctly. I bought it because of comfort and because I like German cars and also because
49 MaverickM11: It's all going to bringing your taxpayer into the world and caring for him until the grave Well I'm just going to guess there are fewer airplane owne
50 einsteinboricua: I totally agree. I've gone almost 5 years with my license and not so much as a single traffic ticket nor accident. Shouldn't I be rewarded for being
51 FlyDeltaJets87: Good. Let's apply this same concept at the airport and start profiling Muslims and those from the Mid-East at airport security and give them more scr
52 Boeing744: Totally agree. To be fair, I don't know when you lived here. But, I have lived in Ottawa for two years now and never owned a car. I have done just fi
53 Tu204: What? I worked my ass of at Tupolev translating the Operating Manual WHILE in my last year of school...the one with the exams? You know? The money I
54 Tu204: What? And there are no uninsured drivers in Virginia where I paid 4 times less? I'd say there are more. And as far as cell phones go, I have not live
55 MaverickM11: Right, and if you did? Of it someone hit you with no insurance?
56 N1120A: You do realize that Canada has a rather similar way of treating personal injury suits, right? Its almost impossible to "get out" of your civic duty i
57 AirCanada787: I'm not sure where you are getting your premiums from but I know people in Ontario that have only been driving a few years and have premiums that are
58 doug_Or: I wonder what is covered? Is the minimum liability insurance lower in VA than in Ontario?
59 scbriml: Of course not and I certainly wasn't suggesting that. I didn't, but uninsured drivers obviously drive up the cost of insurance for law-abiding citize
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