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Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?  
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Anybody heard some expert opinions from Pelosi yet on who we should blame this round of gas price hikes on? You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership, so I'd be interested to know if she has chimed in yet on who we have the honor of blaming this time around.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-17/p...rilling-anwr-pelosi?_s=PM:POLITICS

Anybody heard anything yet?


The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
116 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
lame this round of gas price hikes on?

I assumed it was all the riots in the Middle East but that's just a guess...

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:32:36 by ManuCH]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25202 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

While Libya certainly builds a bit of insecurity in the market, overall global demand is driving prices as economies rebound.

Now for Pelosi, if she is so worried about $4 gas, she should support further oil exploration off the California Coast.
Millions of acres of oil deposits were mapped out in the 1980s, but remain untapped due regulatory barriers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2742 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

George W Bush











oh, and Palin.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8137 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

The rest of the world, with few exceptions, has been paying out the nose for gas for the last 15+ years. Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75. Americans are absolutely spoiled. Had they just added a ten cent tax on gas around 2000 there would be no sudden adjustment to these prices and people would not be affected in such dire ways.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Now for Pelosi, if she is so worried about $4 gas, she should support further oil exploration off the California Coast.

She'd never support that because it would bury her lefty credentials. But don't single out California here - plenty going untapped in Alaska, the Gulf, and the shelf off the Carolinas as well.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:33:17 by ManuCH]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Same bunch of guys who ruined the economy before - speculators.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

How about the weak regulations on the oil futures commodities markets? Like requiring the trader to actually take possesion of the oil you are bidding on?..after all, Saudia Arabia promised to make up the difference, why the uncertainty? I think the oil industry is shooting themselves in the foot. They should actually try to start monopolizing the alternate energy industries now while it is still in it's infancy...if they wait too long, their billions of profits..and billions in subsidies...will not be enough to monopolize it.


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Millions of acres of oil deposits were mapped out in the 1980s, but remain untapped due regulatory barriers.

Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75.

The difference is that American's are so much more dependent on gas than the Japanese. We don't have the mass transit and rail networks that Japan does. Most American's live in low-density car reliant neighborhoods. Unfortunately, America's lifestyle was built on cheap energy. As cheap energy goes away, American's will face fundamental change in how they live and work.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:35:21 by ManuCH]

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8137 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
Like requiring the trader to actually take possesion of the oil you are bidding on?

What would the point of that be? Currency and precious metals are no different.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.

That's not really the point - the point is that until alternative energies are more widespread, larger percentages of domestic supplies drastically reduce the economic uncertainty that comes with relying on foreign export markets.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, America's lifestyle was built on cheap energy. As cheap energy goes away, American's will face fundamental change in how they live and work.

Yeah well who's fault was that? Most US cities were built on streetcar and rail networks.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
What would the point of that be? Currency and precious metals are no different.


Aaron, currency has no actual value at all, hence it's "fiat" definition. Oil, and other petroleum based products, are destroyed in their consumption, pork bellies as well, unlike precious metals or other fungible instruments. Besides, I wonder why the natural gas market is not as "emotional".



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Same bunch of guys who ruined the economy before - speculators.
Quoting bhill (Reply 9):
How about the weak regulations on the oil futures commodities markets?

There it is in a nutshell. I do wonder though why every state needs to have a different blend at different times of the year, that has to add to the price.

Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics, but $4.00 cups of coffee, have $80.00 per month phone bills and $100.00 cable bills.



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):

Yeah well who's fault was that? Most US cities were built on streetcar and rail networks.

Bingo. L.A. used to have, arguably, the world's best public transport system.

Now. Well, its L.A.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3626 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Invest in electricity. Now. Let the oil producers starve.

User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 14):
Oh, I find it funny that people who bitch about gas at $3.50 still drive like lunatics, but $4.00 cups of coffee, have $80.00 per month phone bills and $100.00 cable bills.

All people who bitch about gas do those things?

News to me. I don't remember the last $4 cup of coffee. My TV watching consists of hulu. My cell phone bill is $35 a month. I can't be a lunatic driver (at least you definition, which I assume means accelerating too hard, driving too fast, etc) during gridlock.

Maybe I just don't bitch hard enough about gas.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Some interesting tidits on the CFTC:

" A proposal to consider reclassifying investment banks such as Goldman Sachs (GS) and Morgan Stanley (MS) as speculators, which would subject them to trading limits from which they're currently exempt.

" An investigation of the crude oil trading market dating to December, 2007. On May 30, The Wall Street Journal (NWS) reported that the CFTC has also expanded an investigation into allegations of short-term manipulation of crude oil prices through a price-reporting system overseen by Platts, the energy data unit of The McGraw-Hill Companies (MHP),et al."



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8137 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3170 times:

Quoting bhill (Reply 13):
Oil, and other petroleum based products, are destroyed in their consumption, pork bellies as well, unlike precious metals or other fungible instruments.

This is not a logical line of reasoning. Any product could conceivably be destroyed after it is purchased, and its purchase value is not determined by whether or not it will ever be destroyed. Commodities markets operate on the premise that there will be a more or less steady demand for the product by necessity rather than consumer whims. Requiring bidders to take possession would negate the entire system - you don't walk up to a street hawker, negotiate, and then have them say "you talked to me so you're required to leave with a trinket!".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Now. Well, its L.A.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans seem to have short memories that fuel their senses of entitlement to cheap gas.




If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6321 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3164 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan

Hell I remember once paying approximately $9/gallon in Slovakia of all places...I think that was the most I ever had to pay.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8961 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

Oil futures regulations will do squat. You pay something closer to spot price, not future prices. Right before oil collapsed back in 2008 or whenever that was, oil future markets were predicting it go even further up. It didn't!

The ONLY thing that can help is more supply access. . . regulations in this is the equivalent of cooking the books. . . it's all about bullshitting someone, and it ALWAYS fails. Magic doesn't exist people.

[Edited 2011-03-08 12:01:52]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17450 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Pelosi should love $4+/gal gas; it'll do more for the environment than anything the government/the green movement/ Al Gore could cook up.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Oil futures regulations will do squat. You pay something closer to spot price, not future prices. Right before oil collapsed back in 2008 or whenever that was, oil future markets were predicting it go even further up. It didn't!

I'm sorry that doesn't fit the speculators = grrrr eeeeeeeevil! storyline.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
The ONLY thing that can help is more supply access. . . regulations in this is the equivalent of cooking the books. . . it's all about bullshitting someone, and it ALWAYS fails. Magic doesn't exist people.


Amen. I find it completely irresponsible that our government refuses to allow oil companies to drill where ever there is oil (or gas, for that matter). Oil is the life blood of a capitalist economy. We must do what we can to exploit what is under our control. That will drive prices down because of the prospect of increased supply.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
Invest in electricity. Now. Let the oil producers starve.


So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Because it's a global market and in the long-run it's not really possible for us to pay so much less for gas than others (excluding taxes).


I'm interested in what others are paying for gasoline before the various taxes are applied. I'll guess that it's about the same around the world (where the proper infrastructure exists), and that taxes make up the bulk of what other nations are paying. But, that's speculation on my part.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Not enough to have any real impact on long-term oil prices. We can drill till we are blue in the face, but demand for oil will rapidly outstrip supply even with more drilling. You can't drill your way out of this problem.


Quite simply, we need to produce more oil while developing new sources of energy. To shut out the fact the we have more oil under our feet and push forward in the vain hope that some new energy source will magically appear and change us from a petroleum based economy is fool-hardy. Hell, it would take a generation to switch over to this new magic fuel.

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
So if high gas prices are what it takes to really get the push for alternative energy moving, it might not be the worst thing to happen.


At the cost of wrecking the economy? Again?

And, while we are on the subject...isn't it the function of the Department of Energy to provide policy and guidance for gaining energy independence and/or developing the new technologies? Fail.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

Preferably not. Solar, wind, with a healthy dose of nuclear built in as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
At the cost of wrecking the economy? Again?

It's going to happen eventually. Who's to say that the next spike won't be worse?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3626 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
So...what about all the oil fired powerplants? Or do we build more coal fired plants?

This is the kind of ignorance that sets us back a generation.

Less than 1% of US electricity production is made with oil.

Even the oldest, dirtiest coal power plant is more efficient than thousands of individual power plants in cars. Those old and dirty plants are routinely being phased out. Look out for natural gas power.

We need to get off the oil. It is going to happen sooner than many people think. I look forward to that. If you loved your country, you would too.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Preferably not. Solar, wind, with a healthy dose of nuclear built in as well.


Nuclear is about the only alternative that has long term potential to supplant oil and coal fired plants. Wind and solar take up too much real estate and don't have the bang for the buck. And realistically, we don't have that many oil fired plants. Oil is here to stay because it is integral to our economy and is an ingredient or part of production of the vast majority of products.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
We need to get off the oil. It is going to happen sooner than many people think. I look forward to that. If you loved your country, you would too.


I look forward to it to, but we also need to be realistic. There is no alternative right now. Nothing that has the punch of oil. Again, if if this magic pill were found today, it would take a generation to switch over. That is who ingrained oil is in our society (both domestically and globally).



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
Anybody heard some expert opinions from Pelosi yet on who we should blame this round of gas price hikes on? You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership, so I'd be interested to know if she has chimed in yet on who we have the honor of blaming this time around.

BLAME OBAMA!!!! It's what the cool    kids are doing!

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 13):
News to me. I don't remember the last $4 cup of coffee. My TV watching consists of hulu. My cell phone bill is $35 a month. I can't be a lunatic driver (at least you definition, which I assume means accelerating too hard, driving too fast, etc) during gridlock.

Take public transport...it's what the cool    kids who don't wanna pay for higher gas prices are doing!!!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):

Quite simply, we need to produce more oil while developing new sources of energy.

I've been saying this for years and every time I say it, I get called a liberal tree hugger.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3000 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter):
You'll remember last time it was because of "two oil men" in the white house. We're now pushing towards three years of "oil man free" leadership,

They were simply the enablers, it's the 1st time Big Oil actually had their 'cover issue models' .. actually on the cover. But becuz they're gone..the rest of the magazine is still in check. .. and in charge.

Pelosi was right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Unfortunately a lot of Americans seem to have short memories that fuel their senses of entitlement to cheap gas.

And rightfully, so..and thsi coming from a tree hugger. Your quote below explains it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Having previously paid $5+/gallon in Japan, I still chuckle at all the overreaction here at $3.75. Americans are absolutely spoiled.

I find this very interesting and have been wondering about thsi the last 5 or 6 years...

The biggest customer is suppose to get the best discount based on teh premise of supply & demand.

If British Airways marches into Chicago and tells Boeing 'We want 60 747-8is ..' do you think they'd get a substantial discount?

The same applies to Joe's Plumbing purchasing bulk from 'Bemis' (you all know that name..you've sat on it)

So if the US, being the largest consumer of oil..should by default get the best price for being the biggest customer, if the pattern holds. So if you were paying $5 a gallon in Japan saaayyyyy... 12 years ago, When we were paying say $1.70 and now 12 years later, Japan should be paying about $13.00 a gallon if we're paying $3.50 (today I paid $4.00).

But if Japan is still at 5 or 6 or even $7.. after 12 years, something is really really wrong in Big Consumer land. They are subsidizing someone .. somewhere.

The second largest consumer, China (my guess) should be on par with us...but because of state controls and other unseen antics..I bet there's no way gas is the same as it is here in the US.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I know in China

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
We need to get off the oil.

..and THAT .. will not happen.

Mr Big Oil Guys are like your street corner drug dealer...he's keeping you on board 'until he says you can leave...'
We Americans lack the dispciline to pull a 'Wisconsin' on Big Oil and send them a message they'll never forget, we gotta get to the game, get to therapy, get to the airport to shoot the A380, drop the kids off at the baby-sitter. We have no resolved ..except to complain about the prices as we get gouged.

And to this question : Who To Blame This Time For Gas Prices?
Accept no answer from ANYONE in the Big oil biz or any remotely affiliated industry or ancillary operation...they simply can't be trusted. BP and their lies, cover ups and now trying to weasel out of liabilities is all the proof one needs to show you that BIg Oil will tell you whatever they think you'll swallow.

BN747

[Edited 2011-03-08 16:36:41]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
25 Maverick623 : Not only am I a very safe driver, I average 5MPG more than my car was rated at. I don't normally drink coffee, and when I do it's a 35 cent cup from
26 Aesma : BN747 : it's not as simple as supply and demand, there is lots of politics, and oil companies aren't always from the country where they drill. Say, Fr
27 Post contains images dfwrevolution : As someone actively involved in the energy infrastructure industry, I can assure you that hydrocarbons are not going anywhere in our lifetimes. Using
28 Aaron747 : Maybe it would never have got so high here if we hadn't torn up all of the existing transportation infrastructure our cities enjoyed until the early
29 RayChuang : I blame it on the speculators taking advantage of the (on average) 5% minimum margin requirements (MMR) to trade in petroleum products futures in New
30 okie : China is actually drilling and producing oil for themselves worldwide. They are making an effort to become self dependant on production with their ow
31 dfwrevolution : But probably not. It's not even a matter of hindsight. There's no point pretending that an alternate timeline exist where changing one variable elimi
32 dfwrevolution : A contributing factor as to why speculators have so much leverage is because the margin between global production and global demand is so narrow. It
33 mham001 : That comment is directed at those who refuse to even entertain the idea of transportation without oil. Yes that can happen and it won't take forever
34 dfwrevolution : Frankly, it's irrelevant to our national interests. The electric or natural gas vehicles that are "here now" have essentially zero market share. It w
35 Mike89406 : The protests in the middle east certainly don't help things. I remember having a class discussion about gas prices in Microeconomics. The demand for g
36 seb146 : Might I remind everyone that the price of oil was going up before the Middle East stuff started. There was no real reason for that. Not that anyone co
37 doug_Or : Where is the cargo hold when you need it?
38 mham001 : Really. We import 66% of our oil. We use 50% of our oil for transportation. We sent $300+ Billion last year out of the country in oil purchases. Some
39 Post contains links Aaron747 : You mean aside from a threefold increase in demand from Chinese and Indian consumers over the last decade? And that's only two countries. Pesky thing
40 RayChuang : By the way, I'm not a believer in peak oil. Here's the reason why: the majority of the world's oilfields still old older-style methods on extracting o
41 Post contains images windy95 : They are called investors. One new application has been passed by the Administration since the Gulf Spill. We have one person to blame and he sits in
42 Post contains links and images Baroque : But it seems not so many share our sense of reality/humour!! Thank heaven someone noticed. Why does a thread on oil bring out the most extraordinary
43 Post contains links dxing : That doesn't make a whole lot of sense Aaron. The price per gallon has gone up a lot more than a dime in recent weeks. The federal fuel excise tax cu
44 mt99 : Shouldn't you question be: "how many new jobs have not been created due to lack of new drilling?" What about Natural gas? He abandoned it because he
45 okie : Here is a clue. China drills/produces/refines a continuing larger percentage of their's and someone else's oil. The only cost they have are labor and
46 mt99 : Where did i mention whaling? I asked what percentage our oil consumption goes to producing lubricants.
47 Post contains images Aaron747 : Huge brain fart - I meant to type 10 cents per year. Some of those monies could have been used to get the DOE off its ass and facilitate rapid explor
48 Mortyman : There have has several attacks on pipelines both in Libya and Iraq lately. Does not help on the price.
49 mham001 : It is now cheaper to produce solar power than (IIRC) most all other forms. I've forgotten the details, but solar is below $2/watt, thanks to the Chin
50 dxing : ?? Please provide the source for that. Published reports are that his company Mesa Power decided that with the cost of natural gas and oil being so l
51 windy95 : Well actually it would be a combination of the two. But with no new drilling when old projects are done the workers do not have the next project to g
52 Post contains links mt99 : Do we need to drill the entire state of Alaska just to have lubricants? You seem to be very concerned about it. Tell me how much oil we need for that
53 okie : Last time I checked that is still over 9 times the cost over natural gas. Here is a clue, Solar and Wind are far expensive and unreliable, that is wh
54 Post contains links dxing : Which adds to cost, along with the construction and maintanence involved transmission lines and rights of way. It is still not cheaper on the whole t
55 Post contains links dxing : Still does not answer the original question. How does solar or wind provide lubricants? That is not true and is not sourced. The link you provide mak
56 seb146 : That has always been a given. Since last Labor Day, the price of gas never seemed to go down much. It did, however, keep creeping up. No reason was e
57 Aaron747 : You might also point out to him more than 70% of desert lands in California are federal lands that have specific purposes - either they are military
58 IMissPiedmont : Then I doubt that the price of gas concerns you much. I will be spending that per week shortly, I suspect.
59 Post contains links mt99 : Are "residential costumer" not "tax payers"? Well - the wind farms are paid in part by the tax incentives from the State: http://www.seco.cpa.state.t
60 mt99 : That leaves 30%.. do you know how big the remaining 30% is?[Edited 2011-03-09 11:55:45]
61 Aaron747 : Yeah, mountains - that get as high as 3000 meters. Not very helpful.
62 Post contains images mt99 : Its closer to the sun Point being - you don't need to use every single square inch of desert to make viable solar projects. There is plenty of empty
63 Agill : I guess there is the option of using oil for lubricating stuff and clean energy for other things. Usually you'd use a bit more petrolium products for
64 dxing : You're trying to evade here. You original statement: is very specific, that the taxpayers (read government) was picking up the bill. That is not true
65 mham001 : The VOLT has never been touted to have nor was ever designed to accommodate the 100 mile electric range you claimed to have been disappointed about.
66 Post contains links mt99 : No. ERCOT runs a nodal energy market. Until recently its was recently a "zonal" market- which work in using the same concept. In Texas, Generators (w
67 mham001 : Thats not quite true. The cost of solar is the cost to install, not to run and maintain. You are comparing the cost to run the natural gas plant. Win
68 mt99 : Again, tell me how much oil you need for lubrication and ill tell you how to get it. Answer my question - are "residential users" not "tax payers"
69 dxing : The original concept of the Volt was based on the earlier EV1. If you don't want to recognize that fact be my guest but it does not make it any less
70 dfwrevolution : Really really. Most of which is from Canada, Mexico, and nations that are nothing but friendly to the US. Sure, Venezuela is a pain in our ass someti
71 Post contains links mham001 : ummm, no. Here is a Cnet article covering the unveiling of the Volt concept in January 2007....[i"With that electric drivetrain system, the car can g
72 mt99 : Great. You have answered one question - which is not the one i am asking. I am asking "how much oil do you need to produce the amount of lubrication
73 windy95 : Same can be said about drilling ANWR. Who cares. It should not be filled with solar panels. It is a great argument. How many high paying jobs are cre
74 mham001 : That idea is so ignorant of world market pricing, I don't even know where to begin. You do understand that if we didn't buy Canada's oil, they could
75 pwm2txlhopper : I'd blame OPEC, speculators, and environmentalist wackos that refuse to let us drill in the Gulf, Alaska, off the coast of Florida, or the shale field
76 Post contains links dxing : Ummm, yes. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...8/07/electro-shock-therapy/6871/2/ page 2 second paragraph from the bottom of the page..... Lauckne
77 Post contains links and images mham001 : Nope, common misconception though. About 45% comes form coal and that number is declining every year. Thats fine. I know that. And actually, the late
78 Post contains images dfwrevolution : Apparently you know more about my JOB where I spend 50+ hrs per week than I do. Utter nonsense. China is building one of the dirtiest economies in th
79 Post contains links mt99 : I see, you are not interested in solutions. You had a problem about you concern about finding lubricants, but you are not interested in the solution.
80 Post contains links and images Baroque : Assuming the "oil" in this argument relates to crude oil, let me assist - if you are sufficiently determined then the answer is none at all. http://w
81 Maverick623 : It concerned me enough to move from a nice neighborhood in North Scottsdale to a sh*thole apartment in Tempe to cut down on gas usage, which doesn't
82 mham001 : Then how could you not know that our demand has an effect on worldwide oil markets and puts money in the pockets of our enemies? Far beyond the three
83 Post contains links dxing : As I stated, but once I had a reason I did my research. The drop in range is the major factor in looking elsewhere. If I want a hybrid there are seve
84 Post contains links mt99 : They are still technically tax payers. It is still the wrong map. Accept it. Gray County is just south of Roberts. The link say "Roberts and surround
85 flynlr : is there any reason not to blame the current prez . for the problem just like we blamed the last one for it?> obamer is sucking at the teat of the
86 Post contains links dxing : Irrelevant as tax payers via the State are not paying for any section of the line as you first advocated and then tried to backtrack from. Please den
87 windy95 : If we actually drilled and collected what we have here with oil and natural gas along with good conservation plans we would not have to send oil mone
88 Post contains links mt99 : I never said it was "via the State". Easy. One is purple the other yellow. And the fact that ERCOT is not even shown on your first (and errenous) map
89 Aesma : With electricity, sources for basic elements (cellulose, water, metals), can't you produce lubricating fluid without any oil ?
90 BN747 : Aesma, I'm very aware of the fact that many factors play crucial roles in the oil market. But your French Total analogy is not necessary a good one a
91 dfwrevolution : Everyone's demand has an effect on the global market, of which the U.S. is only 25% of the global market. We're no more causing the problem than the
92 BN747 : I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why instead of the Home Depot prices...why are we (USA) getting the 'Joe the Plumber prices' for oil? The cl
93 mham001 : That's not my talking point. That is however one of the many, many benefits of completely losing the oil noose around our neck.
94 Agill : Same thing there, for the things where you need oil you use oil, for other things you can use other things och just use less. Cutting american oil im
95 Post contains images dxing : Please.... You don't mention rate payers and "Texas taxpayers" and "paid by Texans" intones the government. It was not until it was pointed out to yo
96 Post contains links mt99 : The are not the same lines. See the actual route map White Deer to Gray http://www.crosstexas.com/News/G_to_WD_Final_Feb_2011.pdf Gray to Tesla http:
97 Post contains links and images dxing : You are changing your story yet again. The linked maps in question denote the areas of responsibility for the various regional agencies. There is abs
98 Post contains links and images mt99 : That is because the routing approved was NOT the one Pickens wanted. That was the his whole issue. Im having a hard time understanding what you are t
99 dxing : Because the routing would have had to go outside of ERCOTs authority and ERCOT would not pay for a spur line to his (Mesas') wind farm There is simpl
100 Post contains links and images mt99 : How much oil for lubrication do you need? Roberts and adjecent counties "Mesa Power, formed earlier this year, said the project could have as many as
101 mham001 : Which means absolutely not one bit of anything in this conversation. Lower prices means less money to all oil producers, not just the ones we buy fro
102 dxing : Still can't answer the question. Still don't get how the power grid works here. No sense wasting anymore time trying to explain it.
103 mt99 : I have been working in power marketing for the last 13 years. Does this mean i dont get my picture of the non-exiting powerlines?
104 dxing : That would be true if we were the only ones buying oil. As I am sure you are well aware though, there are plenty of other less technologically advanc
105 Post contains links dxing : Great, and I'm sure you are good at what you do. But that does not explain how you fail to see the differences in the maps you cherry pick to post. A
106 Post contains links mt99 : Correct, thereby expanding the ERCOT Nodal Market into Gray. You do know how a Nodal Market works - don't you? Again, "Cross Texas Transmission (CTT)
107 Post contains links dxing : Yes, because I read about it. http://nodal.ercot.com/about/kd/understandingNodal012308.pdf ???? http://texasre.org/standards_rules/Pages/Default.aspx
108 mt99 : No it does not. TRE - the link you posted from is a completely independent from ERCOT.Federally it has nothingto do with expansion like you claim her
109 Superfly : Kills lots of birds. A single wind farm kills more birds in 1 month than the amount of birds killed by the Exxon Valdez. Yet no wind farm has ever ha
110 Aesma : Apparently that's a myth caused by old turbine designs (and inadequate location).
111 Post contains links Superfly : Tons of information out there about the amount of bird deaths from wind turbines. It's hardly a "myth". http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...onment
112 dxing : Define "new". 3 years ago we had a "new" addition attached to our house. It didn't make the entire house new but the addition was "new". Pretty much
113 Post contains links windy95 : Windmills Are Killing Our Birds One standard for oil companies, another for green energy sources
114 Post contains links Superfly : Sad but true. It's a total double-standard. I wonder how many spotted owls have been killed by wind turbines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzrsopSp
115 Aesma : That's the worst case scenario given as something representative, a little like all the "journalists" talking about Chernobyl right now. Current turbi
116 Post contains links mt99 : If you post random links, that have NO bearing on what is being discussed.. What am i supposed to say? Anyone can pick random links. http://www.hotel
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