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Low Tax Rates For The Wealthy.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3604 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...hart-shows-low-tax-burden-for-rich


Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
199 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19411 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):

Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.

And the GOP, funded by those wealthy people, have fooled the rest of the populace into thinking that taxing them will somehow alter their spending patterns.

Fact is that if you are making $300m a year, you spend as much as you like and increasing taxes isn't going to change your spending.

So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

And the GOP has half of Americans thinking that it's OK not to tax these people.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

It is not necessarely disappearing (i doubt that you´ll have any millionaire acting like Scrooge McDuck), but it will not flow for most part into the AMERICAN economy. It will most likely be invested overseas, wherever there is a good yield for it.Also, many really rich are quite international, with houses and residencies all over the world. It is likely to be spend in other places.

Jan


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

The money doesn't just sit there, it is loaned out by banks. And even if they stuff it in their mattresses, the money is then out of the market, which reduces money supply, and it follows by supply and demand that everybody else's money will go up in value accordingly.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And the GOP, funded by those wealthy people, have fooled the rest of the populace into thinking that taxing them will somehow alter their spending patterns.

I certainly agree, snake oil is what it was called in years of old, now commonally called bullshit.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
It is not necessarely disappearing (i doubt that you´ll have any millionaire acting like Scrooge McDuck), but it will not flow for most part into the AMERICAN economy. It will most likely be invested overseas, wherever there is a good yield for it.Also, many really rich are quite international, with houses and residencies all over the world. It is likely to be spend in other places.

They have no loyalty, as you say, it is me, me. They do consider themselves Internationals, above the fray.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

A combination of the two, but they are still paying less to the government which enrichs them.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
The money doesn't just sit there, it is loaned out by banks. And even if they stuff it in their mattresses, the money is then out of the market, which reduces money supply, and it follows by supply and demand that everybody else's money will go up in value accordingly

Of course it does not, it makes more money for them and the financial institutions.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5421 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, states like California have high taxes and large deficits. Go figure! The problem really is out of control spending.

You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Once again, tax rates for the wealthy seem to be affecting the deficits and of course making the wealthy more wealthy. Is it by design? I think so.

Non sequiturs and class warfare, as usual from WarRI1.

I'd like to see you try and address a fiscal issue without framing it as an "us" versus "them" argument. The people who build wealth do so because the spend less than they earn, which hardly becomes easier as you make more income. Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

It does not follow that increasing tax rates would close the budget deficit in the long run. That deficit is only going to get worse as more Baby Boomers retire and begin drawing welfare benefits. Historical federal income receipts as a percentage of GDP do not show a correlation to the top income tax rate. Given how absolutely important it is to keep economic growth high and blunt the effect of a crumbling dependency ratio, why would we go after the individuals who drive job growth when we need them most? Perhaps because it serves an irrational emotional appeal?



And yet, as tax revenue as a percentage of GDP has remained relatively constant, our desire to spend has grown significantly. If we are maxed out on the revenue we can effectively collect and we still have a deficit, how can we conclude that anything but spending is the problem?



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So all that money, rather than going into the economy, goes into their accounts. It basically vanishes from the economy forever.

No one but a rube hoards cash or near-cash investments. Individuals with a net worth over $1 million predominately hold their wealth in common stock, personal retirement accounts, real estate, or their own business. Their wealth is literally in the economy.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Of course it does not, it makes more money for them and the financial institutions.

Don't forget it also makes money to that small business owner who was able to secure a loan to lease a store, buy equipment, supplies, hire employees and probably finance its operations for quite a while until it turned a profit, all of this on the strength of the entrepreneur's ideas, but on some rich guy's dime. And this rich guy is putting his money on the line - he could lose it all.

Not sure how any of this make anyone rich "deserve" a higher tax rate.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
You do realize that California provides more revenue to the nation and federal government than it receives back? California subsidizes the nation, it's economy is just that large. I am sure it wishes the nation would be more self sufficient.


Not related to the subject at hand.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Here we go again. Lets bash those in society that have managed to earn a few dollars for themselves.

Frankly I don't know a single person that I call "wealthy" that simply sits on their money. They do things like invest, create business, develop property, etc, all things that create employment or income for others including indirect taxes for governments.

Additionally virtually all are charitable with their monies funding host of causes from local schools to global health initiatives.

So how about instead we better recognize these people and be thankful for the risks they take and contributions they make to a nation instead of trying to blame the countries problems on a class of entrepreneurs.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
Non sequiturs and class warfare, as usual from WarRI1.

I did not write the article, someone thought it was important to put on the Yahoo site.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
I'd like to see you try and address a fiscal issue without framing it as an "us" versus "them" argument. The people who build wealth do so because the spend less than they earn, which hardly becomes easier as you make more income. Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

If you do not think it is us versus them, well the Kool Ade is working as usual. Show me the money, that is what it is all
about. It becomes harder as you make more? Ask the CEO of UPS, and many more. My goodness. Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
It does not follow that increasing tax rates would close the budget deficit in the long run

No one said it would close any deficits, but it would not hurt. A person makes a million, and pays one half of one percent less in taxes, than a person who makes 50K. Do the math. We do know a million a year does not go far these days.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Frankly I don't know a single person that I call "wealthy" that simply sits on their money. They do things like invest, create business, develop property, etc, all things that create employment or income for others including indirect taxes for governments

Noble people all. All done for their fellow citizens. I have changed my mind, let us give them another tax break so they can do more. Things are so good and fair, now, why not? Special people deserve special tax treatment. Wait, they already get that. I think the link was inferring that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5490 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?

I wish to God I could understand what you're saying here - I might be able to understand it.

---

For me, the simple reality is that money in the hands of productive enterprise will usually do more, better and to the true benefit of more people, by accident, than all the money the government can confiscate.

Hell, I think I know a better way, anyway: use tax policy to implement a very simple doctrine:

From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

To quote Yuri Zhivago, M.D., "'It is more just."



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):Tax Policy does not help the wealthy to attain more, Wow! I wonder what point the link was making about taxes. How come it is not working the other way?



I wish to God I could understand what you're saying here - I might be able to understand it.
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
Tax policy does not make anyone more wealthy.

See above. The link was about lower tax rates for the wealthy and deficit reduction. I posed the question, how come it doe not work for the less wealthy most of the time, you know, lower rates. If it did, there would be rate parity.That Kool Ade can be strong. Try reading the link, that may help.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5490 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Higher taxes do not yield higher revenues, long term. So, once we're concluded it's really about punishing the successful, we can at least be honest with ourselves.


From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
Higher taxes do not yield higher revenues, long term. So, once we're concluded it's really about punishing the successful, we can at least be honest with ourselves.


From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

My friend, you could not be more wrong, it is about paying ones fair share. I can see you have a problem with that concept. You are not alone, and that is sad in itself. I hate to break it to you, you are not talking to someone who is not successful financially, or any other way. I am not someone to put in the bag with the so called takers, you folks love to talk about.I have paid and still pay my share, even in retirement, on every dime of income. So does my wife.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5421 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Not related to the subject at hand.

And neither was your comment any more relevant. If it were relevant then mine would be as well, for if California actually received the appropriate level of federal dollars based on what it contributes it would not have to pay for things that the federal government should be paying for and therefore it's budget problems would not be as severe.

However as you say California's problem's are not relevant to the topic at hand which makes me wonder why you even brought it up.  

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
It becomes harder as you make more? Ask the CEO of UPS, and many more. My goodness.

Every dollar you earn is like a personal employee. As the CEO of UPS if it would be easier to manage a business of 40,000 employees or 400,000 (as UPS does). People in high income careers are often pressured to live a high consumption lifestyle. So just because someone makes more, it does not mean they have the luxury of banking it all.

The deeper you live below your means, the more disciple it takes.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
No one said it would close any deficits, but it would not hurt.

In the long run, yes, it very well could.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
I posed the question, how come it doe not work for the less wealthy most of the time, you know, lower rates.

Because the less wealthy do not try to build wealth. Only ~25% of Americans own any basic investments outside of their home and employer-provided retirement plan. The majority of Americans live at the limit of their income and have no basis to save or invest. Even households well below the median income practice wasteful consumption that could instead be used to invest, if they had that inclination.

Example: 30% of the people earning between $25,000-35,000 in annual income spend approximately $1,000 per year in cigarettes. Leaving the health consequences aside, the money spent on all those cigarettes could grow to approximately $125,000 over 40 years - in inflation adjusted dollars. That's already double the average household net worth in the United States.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
And neither was your comment any more relevant. If it were relevant then mine would be as well, for if California actually received the appropriate level of federal dollars based on what it contributes it would not have to pay for things that the federal government should be paying for and therefore it's budget problems would not be as severe.

However as you say California's problem's are not relevant to the topic at hand which makes me wonder why you even brought it up.

The federal government allocates its resources based on things like the census, not on how much each state contributes. This is what it deemed "appropriate level" and it is based on California-style logic. If California has a problem with how Federal funds are allocated, lobby to change the law, don't ignore it and drive itself into a massive financial hole and then complain about it.

California's budget problems are its own fault, not the Federal government's nor of other states. It - not anyone else - chose to overspend.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14):
From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need.

Each according to his ability? I would have to presume a wealthy person is more able to pay more taxes than a lower caste person, so why do they not? Those words in relation to tax rates are pure hokum. bull dinky, whatever. I will not even go into the other words about needs.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5490 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
My friend, you could not be more wrong, it is about paying ones fair share. I can see you have a problem with that concept. You are not alone, and that is sad in itself. I hate to break it to you, you are not talking to someone who is not successful financially, or any other way. I am not someone to put in the bag with the so called takers, you folks love to talk about.I have paid and still pay my share, even in retirement, on every dime of income. So does my wife.

See, here's the thing. I could never presume to say any foul thing about you at all; I'll presume you've led a full and productive life, and have sensed (without knowing) you did so in a skilled and valuable craft. But when you accept the principle that "...the rich don't pay enough...," granting the government bureaucrat class (who operate without meaningful oversight, and without the possibility of personal failure) the right to decide who is, and who is not, "rich," pretty soon, we'll run out of rich people to tax, we'll all be poor, and we'll all be hungry. It's inevitable.

The alpha and omega of the debate, for me is this: Almost nothing done by government, is done well.

What government is best at, and best-situated to do, is regulation - so they should do that, and only that, together with that limited list of things which only government can do (border defense, a prime exemplar), and otherwise, stay the hell out of the way.

So demand that your government protect you from thieves, whether they be holding a knife on you at the corner bus stop, or wielding a convoluted tax-sheltered Ponzi scheme from a penthouse in Manhattan.

But spare yourself from the self-defeating illusion that, if you just take a little more away from someone who has more, it will "level the playing field" or "give someone else a slice of the pie." Just doesn't work.

Never has.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

To me what needs to be happening is to have a tax policy that encourages good investments and penalizes bad as to the whole of society as well as discourages excessive compensation.

For examples: Perhaps a higher rate of short-term Capital Gains taxes when they are well above inflation to discourage 'flipping' of real property, stocks and other investments. Cap deductions for high income persons/families for personal exemptions, mortgage interests and certain local taxes as well on untaxed income instead of the Alternative Minimum Tax to keep the intended reason for such deductions to encourage the middle class to own their own homes and have investments. Tighten up on small to medium business expenses to discourage abuse and recover tax revenues. Discourage excessive placing of monies in 'tax dodging' places like Switzerland or the Cayman Islands by USA citizens. Find ways to use make sure is proper funding and regulation to make sure all pay their fair share of taxes.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
People in high income careers are often pressured to live a high consumption lifestyle. So just because someone makes more, it does not mean they have the luxury of banking it all.
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Because the less wealthy do not try to build wealth. Only ~25% of Americans own any basic investments outside of their home and employer-provided retirement plan. The majority of Americans live at the limit of their income and have no basis to save or invest. Even households well below the median income practice wasteful consumption that could instead be used to invest, if they had that inclination

When I read your words about the wealthy, and the pressure to live a high consumption lifestyle, and then your words about the less wealthy, I see hypocrisy, Is it any different for the wealthy? They are under pressure to smoke, drink, entertain, join country clubs, send their children to private schools, travel etc. Is that somehow different than a lower paid worker who smokes, drinks, entertains, plays golf on a public course, sends his kids to a public school, goes away for a weekend once in awhile. What is the difference, the wealthy folk are consuming big, the not so wealthy is consuming on a lower level. It seems that is Ok for the big guy, but not for the little guy. It is funny how that works, pressure for the wealthy to live it up, but wasteful, or whatever for the lower paid. HMMMMM. Is it not called living?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinezalemam From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

This chart says it all!




Patience is Virtue
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 20):
The alpha and omega of the debate, for me is this: Almost nothing done by government, is done well.

I certainly do not disagree with that argument.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 20):
But when you accept the principle that "...the rich don't pay enough...," granting the government bureaucrat class (who operate without meaningful oversight, and without the possibility of personal failure) the right to decide who is, and who is not, "rich," pretty soon, we'll run out of rich people to tax, we'll all be poor, and we'll all be hungry. It's inevitable

I only advocate a fair system, not soak the rich, the writer of the article in the link seems to favor my side of the argument. the wealthy are paying less, is that fair? I wonder, if we have ever in the history of man, run out of rich people tp tax? I think not, nor do I expect it to change. They are always with us, they are survivers. !0% of 50K, 10% of 50 million, that is fairness.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 PPVRA : Writing off drilling costs a "tax break for oil companies". You don't know anything at all about taxes, do you, Zaleman? I'd suggest you take some cl
26 WarRI1 : I wonder, if you could put up a comparison chart to disprove what he says in his chart. I seem to think he has a point or two.
27 PPVRA : I will not waste my time with a chart that is either purposely deceitful or put together by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
28 JakeOrion : The problem is PPVRA (while I completely agree with you), this statement makes your argument look...weak. Funny how 99.9% of the politicians are rich
29 sccutler : The problem is, Zaleman's chart presupposes several necessary elements, which are not established predicates: 1. That he referenced programs actually
30 WarRI1 : My wife has told me that many times, but I do not believe her. I hope there are others who can enlighten us.
31 PPVRA : How so? All ordinary and necessary business expenses are tax deductible. In the oil field, drilling (a very necessary expense!) has certain unique ec
32 Airportugal310 : The only thing I notice here, based on all this BS is this: If we were to have a society where, oh, you know...this little thing like 'surival of the
33 JakeOrion : By you not providing this a post earlier: When you fail to provide information of why his chart was wrong, it just comes down to another, "You're a d
34 PPVRA : No problem in explaining the one I pointed out, and sure maybe I should have gone ahead and explained it anyways. But I will not be going through the
35 Pyrex : Fact is, the majority of people making $300m a year are probably Democrats... it is the guys making $250K - $2M that are Republicans. When you have s
36 seb146 : It is interesting that the Reagan tax breaks for the wealth coencide with the deficit increasing. And very rich people with a low tax burden. In Chin
37 dxing : BINGO. No need to go any farther. Interesting to note that the country got along just fine without personal income tax for the better part of 126 yea
38 Post contains links Mir : This is not correct: http://rricketts.ba.ttu.edu/Tax%20Rates%20and%20Revenues.htm Tax increases generally raise revenue, and tax cuts generally lower
39 Aesma : Yeah, and of course, is the CEO making millions really 1000 times more able than the bottom worker of his company ?
40 Pyrex : The people paying his or her salary seem to think so, and in the end of the day that is all that matters. Is Angelina Jolie really 10,000 times more
41 ipodguy7 : Why should those who work hard to be successful in life be punished and taxed up to almost half of what they make, while those who are less wealthy ge
42 Aaron747 : True enough on that point. Still doesn't make it right that Californians see $1 in services from the feds for every $3 they generate in revenue. Isn'
43 sccutler : Well-said. How the various boards of directors worked themselves around to allowing salaries at these stupendous levels is beyond comprehension. Perh
44 okie : I suppose someone in a high tax bracket would say the exact same thing. Quite frankly, the idea that the one group or another needs to pay more taxes
45 PPVRA : Which has no bearing whatsoever on your deficits. . . .
46 dxing : Okie says it best... Since they face the same problem. They pay in and get little back.
47 dfwrevolution : I am not holding high income earners who consume their entire income to a different standard than low income earners who consume their entire income.
48 ALTF4 : How about you come back with a chart that compares government programs that are actually in need, alright? I'm sorry, but I don't think it is my resp
49 tugger : California pays a massive amount for illegal immigration impacts and the federal government does not properly fund systems to address it. Funnily eno
50 Post contains links dxing : They will pay more in actual funds but the percentage should not be any different. As to how taxes are collected, it will not shift to a tarrif mode
51 tugger : A VAT or national sales tax would have to cover everything purchased including services. I still like the simple small flat tax on annual net worth T
52 dxing : It doesn't get much simpler than X percent on every sale or service rendered. I would agree completely with that. Do you mean the NBBA perhaps? That
53 Post contains images RayChuang : Here's the problem: the rich can afford tax lobbyists to "tweak" the Internal Revenue Code for their benefit and worst of all, they can hire the best
54 Mir : This hits the nail on the head. It's not just the poor who have an entitlement mentality, or just the rich - it's everyone, and until we all figure o
55 vin2basketball : The answer is really quite simple, make all of the welfare programs across the country (food stamps, unemployment, cash aid etc.) contingent on the p
56 FlyDeltaJets87 : We could solve all of this "rich/poor don't pay their fair share" by instituting a flat income tax percentage across the board. But that's too simple
57 Post contains images RayChuang : I'm all for such a plan for one reason: drastically reduce the most insidious form of corruption in Washington, DC, those 30,000-plus tax lobbyists t
58 Pyrex : The thing is, in Japan you do not get to the top by being the best at what you do, you basically get by being the oldest at your employer - it is alm
59 Post contains images WarRI1 : You are quite wrong. I do have a heart for people, so if that is a weakness, so be it. I plead guilty to being a fair human being. Quite a drastic de
60 WarRI1 : I second that also, Well said. a tough pill to swallow for some, but a good comparison, to say the least. Welfare Queens, and CEO's. All the same, in
61 WarRI1 : That is their choice. The title to this thread is about lower tax rates for the wealthy, so they have leg up right from the get go. They are already
62 WarRI1 : Yes we could, and you are correct, it is too simple, too fair, so the powers that be will not touch it.
63 dxing : As has been pointed out to seb146 and others before, the deficit continue to rise, even after Reagan agreed to modest tax raises in 1982 because the
64 seb146 : So, shut down the government, let millions starve to death or die in the cold. But, at least we would end subsadies for coal and oil.
65 Post contains images dxing : Absolutely no one, not even the tea party has suggested that. What they are suggesting is that we cannot continue on the financial course we are on,
66 dfwrevolution : Then you are on another planet. High income earners do not pay lower tax rates than lower income earners. Federal tax rates are progressive. You pay
67 WarRI1 : What world do you inhabit ? You inherit wealth, or you make it with your income. A 20 million dollar per movie star, makes one picture, he is more we
68 BMI727 : Income and wealth are related, but aren't the same thing. Maybe you should ask MC Hammer what the difference is.
69 Post contains links seb146 : Income does corrilate directly to wealth because the more income one has, the more wealthy one becomes. http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/fac...1/stra
70 WarRI1 : As Sarah, would say, you Betcha, income and wealth are related.
71 seb146 : FINALLY!!! You are making sense and talking like a liberal!!! Although, I would point out that Libya is not a full scale invasion by one nation using
72 BMI727 : Not at all. The liberal thing to do is to go in and bring freedom to the poor oppressed Libyans, just like we did for the Iraqis.
73 dxing : No, I'm talking like a fiscal conservative that understands that in order to save the country from financial ruin we need to make drastic cuts in our
74 okie : I don't inhabit a world where every dollar needs spent twice, nor do I inhabit a world that when every dollar is spent twice that someone else should
75 seb146 : So, you are saying that a person that is sitting on $85 billion (wealth) and also brings in $500,000 every month (income) should only be taxed at a l
76 PPVRA : There isn't a shred of truth in this statement. It has already been discussed in this thread too.[Edited 2011-03-20 11:59:09]
77 WarRI1 : In this instance, I was talking about wages, wealth, and the gaining of more wealth from high wages and lower tax rates. One is tied directly to anot
78 windy95 : Who decides what a "fair Share" is? You have a heart but want to use someone elses money. Tax rates do not allow them to become more wealthy. It allo
79 okie : There is a wonderful example of the government taking all the wealth and playing the class warfare game. It is called Cuba. Cuba can not afford to ev
80 seb146 : Well, yes... I do worry about myself. I worry that I can not afford to live anywhere because the banks are sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars
81 windy95 : What does that have to do with money earned by someone you deem "rich" You have the same chance that they have to earn money. Because it was already
82 dxing : Do you really want to go there? So your money is not your own to do with as you so please?
83 tugger : Actually no, you had said "federal" and in general, beyond the basic transportation ability that it provides, most poor people, truly poor people, de
84 BN747 : You must not know many millionaires.... MOST are exactly like Scrooge McDuck (I was a big fan of the comic character too) I used to think he same way
85 dxing : A poor person can save the money to buy a plane ticket if they wish too. So rich people do not "benefit" from any "program" in that regard. And that
86 BMI727 : You can't be seriously trying to say that the MC Hammer method of money management is really a better route than being responsible?
87 BN747 : And you can't be serious calling MC Hammer a celebrity. MC Hammer's money management flaws is no different than Paris Hilton's...so what's your point
88 WarRI1 : As has been said before, a flat tax rate for everyone, on every dime. As has been said before, I pay on every dime of my earnings, even now after 13
89 windy95 : But the rich guy is still carrying the load for the bleeding heart liberals wealth redistrubtion plans. Not you and still think that he is not paying
90 BMI727 : I suppose we could make it tyranny of the majority, which would probably be only a half step away from a Marxist revolution. That I think it is a lit
91 Post contains images Aaron747 : Are you saying Vegas nightclubs have not benefitted from the likes of Charlie Sheen??
92 BMI727 : They have, but I am not about to point to that as being somehow better or more noble than investing responsibly and building generational wealth whic
93 Aaron747 : ...is a judgment call. My paternal grandfather died with a few mill in the bank from his baby furniture business and left a pittance to his three son
94 Post contains images WarRI1 : A straight flat tax, 10,20, 30% whatever of earnings, no exceptions. That is fair, a concept some are having a problem with. Fairness in taxation. It
95 windy95 : I think most on the right will agree with some form of flat tax. No more gerrymandering the tax code to pay off favorites. One easy tax form for all.
96 BN747 : You clearly have a problem with hearing (in this case reading) hard truths that conflict with your beliefs along with translating it into something t
97 tugger : Yes they do since they do the disproportionate amount of the traveling. I know many like to obfuscate the simple fact by saying anyone can use it but
98 tugger : I do not see it as having anything to with with greed, or whether is it bad or good, but I challenge you to point out anywhere in history where large
99 Post contains links and images FlyDeltaJets87 : So by the double negative you just used, you're saying he does know the divide, and are thus conceding to his point, yes? Here's a radical concept -
100 BMI727 : Wealthy people are not the reason why the nation is sinking deeper in debt. I never said anything like that. Being responsible with money is not the
101 windy95 : But what would be the rate if all taxes where combined into this flat tax. FICA, Medicaid, corporate taxes and every other nickle and dime tax. Wipe
102 tugger : Not really saying it does however I will note that it is becasue of the society that the person made their money. There is a connection. It is why th
103 BN747 : You couldn't be farther from the truth. I recently saw a great example of the wealth intake and division. Here's how the wealthiest 1% take in on wea
104 WarRI1 : [quote=windy95,reply=95]I think most on the right will agree with some form of flat tax. No more gerrymandering the tax code to pay off favorites. One
105 BMI727 : Only to pay basic taxes, since getting a personal army is a bit impractical. Furthermore, the wealthy are no more obligated than anyone else, so it i
106 BN747 : Owe? And Bernie Madoff 'earned' his 80 slices? And the bankers that knew what he was doing is wrong..earned theirs? And they aren't jail? The nation
107 BMI727 : He stole it. Which is entirely different, but I don't think that it is going out on a limb to say that most thieves don't pay income tax on what they
108 Mir : I can't. Such a tax hits the poor far more than it hits the rich. It would also do away with the incentive to donate to charitable organizations, whi
109 BN747 : Because I know the business world, not the text book version. I see you think all that goes on in the world of high finance is written in some manual
110 PPVRA : Your mistake is in assuming that wealth = physical resources. You make this assumption when you compare wealth to a pie. Wealth is knowledge. Today's
111 WarRI1 : I cannot deny that, all I ask is a fair system. It is obviously beyond us to satisfy everyone. I guess reform and simplification of existing laws is
112 BMI727 : You can't run around making judgement calls about who really earns their money and who doesn't. It's bad enough that lawyers stretch and bend the law
113 PPVRA : This is absurd and totally contrary to the principles of liberty. What you are speaking of is debt slavery. A chattel. You need to take back this sta
114 BN747 : You're speaking in vague textbook terms and it covers nothing. I certainly will not. Mexico is in the state it is in now because people like Carlos S
115 PPVRA : Wrong. I gave specific examples with Brazil versus Japan. You gave a useless, wrong-headed pizza example. Wrong! Mexico, like Brazil, is in this stat
116 Mir : And I would say that a simple flat tax without any deductions or exemptions whatsoever is not a fair system. -Mir
117 pwm2txlhopper : Ecatly. It shouldn't. This is America. The land of opportunity. Not socialism. If you work your butt off, create jobs, or just get rich through educa
118 BN747 : Mexico's nothing like Brazil, go there as much as I have and get back to me. Pay attention.. no one wants Slims money, but 'he should' do a whole lot
119 PPVRA : Mexico has many of the same issues Brazil has (particularly the issue of statism). As for Slim, can't say anything too specific about his practices,
120 dxing : Air travel is still an option, just like riding the bus. There is no "right" to fly just like there is no "right" to wealth, unless it is mandated by
121 BN747 : You're guessing in the right direction with 'if' thing..but what you're also discounting or perhaps don't understand is the same thing I've repeated
122 BMI727 : Good thing you are aware enough to tell what everyone should owe. Maybe you should just mail everyone a bill based on what the government did for the
123 tugger : I don't know but I cannot see it being possible to pass a true flat tax that properly applies to all people that really represents each individual's
124 BN747 : Show me and anyone else reading this..in english or any other language, where I said the state or society ought to take with force from the wealthy.
125 BMI727 : You are misunderstanding. I meant a mandatory tax, not literally putting a gun to some millionaires head or something. Sure, he did a good thing. But
126 Post contains links starbuk7 : Every time I see these tax debates, I think of this!! The flat tax is the way to go!! Bar Stool Economics The first four men (the poorest) would pay n
127 windy95 : Ahh. Can you smell the rich envy. Very few earn their slices. that is funy stuff. As for Madoff and others like him if they break the law then they s
128 Mir : So they'd be getting a deduction. But you said there should be no deductions. So which is it? -Mir
129 seb146 : Except that is not how the real world works. Think about it: The poor pay taxes and use public systems like education, transit, welfare and so forth.
130 starbuk7 : NO, I would not be complaining, since we would ALL be paying 10%, which is now fair since everyone is paying their share. Not very hard logic to figu
131 BN747 : Rich envy? You're barking up the wrong tree fella and clearly have no idea where I live (which has been indicated in other threads - but no need to b
132 Post contains images windy95 : There would be no deductions just a limit at which point you would start paying taxes. Pretty simple Most do not and if they pay at all it a minor am
133 BMI727 : So I guess we should outlaw the stock market since it is a way to make money without working for it. And maybe banking too, since nobody works to ear
134 windy95 : So since you are well and to do have no need to boast (which actually is boasting) then I take it you voluntarily donate extra large sums to the trea
135 Post contains images PPVRA : Being judgemental doesn't give you a balanced conscience. Investing money creates a lot of good in and of itself, there is no "need" to necessarily h
136 WarRI1 : Are you kidding? I mean, do you really think anyone, or everyone that argues for fairness in taxation has to have Rich Envy? I am sure some of it exi
137 BN747 : Now that depends on the basis of said judgement doesn't? Judgement is a necessary enabler of conscience...poor judgement (like a bully (physical) or
138 FlyDeltaJets87 : I've always said I look forward to the day when I meet a liberal who would willingly pay more than they are required to in taxes to help out those le
139 PPVRA : Let's start with the banking system, the "star" of the show. . . a central banking system, as opposed to a free banking system (so much for free mark
140 Pyrex : Maybe he prefers a government run banking system, like the "Cajas" in Spain or the "Landesbank" in Germany. I am sure that would make the financial s
141 Post contains images pylon101 : This simple graphic is quite interesting. Amazing, actually.
142 FlyDeltaJets87 : Since I can't edit it, that should read "Although I'm not usually a fan".
143 CaptainCrackers : I'm slow on the uptake here, but: I love it how you chide the low-income guy for his spending, but not the high-income guy. All in the same post.
144 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : Your "100 slices" is nothing but some superficial example you've made up to try to make a point that none of us are falling for. You know why? Becaus
145 windy95 : I take that as a No? You have no idea what I think. And yes I was an underpaid Airman in the military and a very underpaid Mechanic for a commuter Ai
146 BN747 : Oh? Is that so? ....and what..my own money doesn't count? It helps to know 'what' you're talking about when you talk about someone you don't know. Un
147 windy95 : You have no clue on this... It tells no story... I guess you are just going to ignore this one now? But do they donate large amounts to the treasury
148 PPVRA : I did not miss that point. But you did mine - that the regulators and other "programs" actually create sustainability problems in the system. When we
149 Post contains images Aaron747 : So....are we to assume this is just elitist propaganda from Harvard Business School? Just asking. A pretty damning summation of how far Americans' per
150 FlyDeltaJets87 : By who's definition? I only make about half of that at my pay-grade, albeit about $10,000 of that a year is tax-free allowances for housing and food,
151 Mir : That's an unfair criticism - while it's true that the poor in the US have it relatively good, there is something to be said for helping your countrym
152 dxing : It wasn't a criticism, it was a suggestion and at it's core it is absolutely correct. The majority of the "poor" in the United States have nothing in
153 seb146 : How many of those 45% make over $1,000,000? It happens, I bet. Also, an easy way to solve this whole "the poor don't pay taxes" myth is to create job
154 WarRI1 : In response to words that are not mine either. Those words above are mine. My response, is once again, you must be kidding? Rich Envy? How shallow do
155 Post contains images WarRI1 : I guess when we who do not seek, or want to attain wealth, nor work hard to do so, and yet are envious of the Rich are also guilty of one of the Seve
156 Mir : Ok, it's an unfair suggestion then. Helping those in need in your own country, even though they may be better off than those in need in other countri
157 windy95 : It suddenly became very quiet in here. Game ..set.. match... You would lose that bet. Post a link please Stop being so dramatic. We are talking about
158 dxing : I'd agree it's an unfair suggestion but if you are going to start with the worst first, you have to look overseas to find the majority of them. "Poor
159 Post contains links seb146 : You also keep asserting that the "poor" pay zero in taxes. I am considered "poor" yet every single pay check I recieve, federal and state taxes are d
160 Post contains links AGM100 : Leave it to me to find a solution for Democrats worried about the Fed receiving enough money for the programs . Here ya go ... a link provided for you
161 windy95 : You have to be specific. What do you pay for Federal income tax on your tax return at the end of the year. Everyone pays some to FICA and Medicare. I
162 dxing : I'd be willing to bet your refund at the end of the year equals the amount you pay in federal income taxes if not more. As was noted, FICA taxes are
163 windy95 : Sorry you will have to provide a link for proof of this. I searched and could find nothing.
164 Mir : There are a lot of poor in the world, yes. And some of them are poorer than others. That doesn't mean that if you want to help the poor you are moral
165 Aaron747 : Not to mention that a good number of the poor here spend what little money they have on drugs and alcohol. Quite a bit different than having to walk
166 dxing : Nor was "morally" implied by FlyDeltaJets87. His suggestion was that if helping the poor is your justification, then there are far more "poor" and "p
167 WarRI1 : It must be the Italian Heritage, but, can you deny what I said? We were accused of Rich Envy, key word Envy, one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Am I not t
168 WarRI1 : I do not recall, ever calling for that, or even close. I call for fair taxation, do you suggest that is so now?
169 Post contains images AGM100 : Help the poor .... make jobs for them . Rich people make jobs .... leave em alone and go get rich yourself. You guys sound like Bolsheviks ... You mus
170 WarRI1 : May I ask, who you are addressing, or is it anyone who does not like the way the wealthy buy the breaks in life, they way they use their money to inf
171 windy95 : So we do agree for the most part but the answer still has to be made as to what is fair. Replace needy for many with lazy or unproductive. You starte
172 FlyDeltaJets87 : In all fairness to Walt (WarRI1) and from our discussions in other threads, Walt is for one flat tax rate for everyone regardless of income. That sai
173 windy95 : Yes I understand that and him. He is one of the few from the left that I enjoy bantering with. But his topic seems to be that low tax rates for the W
174 casinterest : I don't think a flat tax would work. It would destroy the the low income families and we would need even more Welfare to level the playing field. I t
175 windy95 : Bingo. Cut the spending first then work out a good rate to pay off the debt and the return to normal. But we will never see the spending stop. At lea
176 Aaron747 : Because everyone, both liberals and conservatives, wants a government we can't actually pay for, to say nothing of both GOP and Dems being too spinel
177 WarRI1 : That is the 64K question. No question, abusers of the system, from all levels, poor and wealthy. No question, but letting people get away with avoidi
178 Aaron747 : Because they have plenty of ways to avoid it if they know what they're doing. A friend of mine runs a successful startup company that netted him over
179 WarRI1 : Thanks, I was, still am, but now I am more confused than I was before. Taxes, a convoluted question to say the least. I cannot even figure out what i
180 windy95 : I know that we need to clean house from the lowest county job to the White House and see what is really needed. Just read something today about a cou
181 seb146 : I have seen poverty in this country. I have been a part of it. I have had to stand in line with my mom for government cheese, peanut butter, and powd
182 windy95 : That you where not poor during these times. You do not understand taxes. There are no tax breaks for Stocks and as far as gifts and Mortages go it is
183 casinterest : Ummm... They are called Long term Captial Gains, and it is why most of the wealthy pay an average of 16% of their Income on tax. Everyone gets this b
184 Post contains links FlyDeltaJets87 : They have taxes withheld from them on their paychecks, which are then returned to them when they do their tax return. So no, they do not pay taxes if
185 WarRI1 : I agree, hypocrisy is a way of life now, everyone is looking for a break. Is it my imagination, or do the big money people look the most?
186 WarRI1 : I appreciate your honesty, he knows how to beat the system, most of us just pay.
187 seb146 : I would get a higher paying job, but no one is hiring and no one is paying high wages. I am at bare bones for expenses. I know these things and live
188 sna752 : In theory, yes it does. Tax rate isn't flat in the United States. For example, the first $10,000 made will be taxed at 12.5% and each dollar above $2
189 Mir : I'm pretty sure that wouldn't help close the deficit, so no, it wouldn't be enough. Or rather, it would be enough (a 5% increase is probably more tha
190 Post contains links sna752 : Totally agree. For some though, it's much more about redistribution of wealth than it is anything else. The rich and poor need an incentive to make m
191 sna752 : Apologies. Here is the link: online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704034804576026233823935442.html
192 Mir : Here's the problem with that: the first dollar is far more valuable than the millionth, because of diminishing marginal returns. Thus, taxing every d
193 sna752 : I suppose it depends on who determines value. HNW individuals generally also have higher expenditures. Thus, they might save the same 10% of their in
194 Mir : This is true, but it's by choice and not necessity. If Bill Gates loses 10% of his net wealth, he's lost more money that most people make in a lifeti
195 seb146 : Interesting thought: The rich/right are always complaining about "welfare queens" but, since SCOTUS ruled that corprorations are people, the corporati
196 Mir : And the government needs to stop allowing them to be welfare queens. -Mir
197 WarRI1 : I agree with both of you, the government is the enabler of all the welfare Queens, both rich and poor. One might say, that the wealthy should know be
198 Post contains links dxing : Perhaps then the President should mention that to his pal Jeffery Immelt. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html Nice picture
199 Mir : Exactly the case I was thinking of when I made that comment, actually. -Mir
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