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Is This The End Of Nuclear Power - Part 2?  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3467 times:
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This is a continuation thread of part 1, which can be found here: Is This The End Of Nuclear Power - Part 1?

Please feel free to continue your discussion, but please abide to the forum rules. In Part 1 there are instances of members who are in violation of forum rules. Unfortunately those posts cannot be removed without causing a portion of the thread to collapse. Any reoccurrence of forum rule violations in part 2 will result in this thread being locked.

Thank you for your co-operation.


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 251):
Nuclear hysteria seems to be in full swing....

Germany: Geiger Counter Suppliers Run Out After Nuclear Fear

German Geiger counter suppliers including Conrad Electronic SE have sold out of the devices after demand from private and industrial customers rose because earthquakes in Japan damaged nuclear power stations.

Conrad Electronic, a German consumer and office electronics retailer, has sold out of Geiger counters, spokeswoman Christina Bauroth said by telephone from the company’s Hirschau headquarters. The retailer, which has an online business and operates 26 stores in Germany, is trying to get new devices by the middle of April, she said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0....html

People are going bonkers! I know those Geiger counters sold that this electronics department store are not particularly sensitive and essentially only good for the detection of gamma rays. In any case, most people probably don´t have a clue how to make a valid radiological measurement and what to look for.
Newpapers over here are really falling into the "We are all going to die horribly of radiation disease!" pattern.

Jan


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

From the previous thread as I lodged this after the bell had gone as it were:

Quoting GST (Reply 248):
http://www.geothermalengineering.co.uk/page/in-the-news/item/26.html This facility will both provide heat and power, as the wells will be much deeper to access the hotter rocks.


Hmm Redruth. Probably fairly tough drilling, but the proximity of red granites is always a positive sign. Not sure what a heat flow map looks like down there. If it were me, I would try some of the blanketed granites similar to those in Durham. There you get the benefit of the high heat flow from the granites, and the blanketing sediments are easier to drill through compared with the metasediments and granites of the SW.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8685 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 251):
Nuclear hysteria seems to be in full swing....

Germany: Geiger Counter Suppliers Run Out After Nuclear Fear

Hysteria? You're being generous.

As serious as the accident at Fukushima is, buying consumer-grade geiger counters in Germany becuse of it is retarded. Not only are radioactive particles from the plant extremely unlikely to make it here, but if they do they'll be so few that only sophisticated equipment will detect them.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
Newpapers over here are really falling into the "We are all going to die horribly of radiation disease!" pattern.

I trust that you've seen some of the comments in the SPON forums?   

The most annoying thing that's happening in Germany due to this disaster is the bandwagon-jumping. All of a sudden, and of course nothing to do with the upcoming elections    , the federal government is backtracking on its we'll-give-you-anything-you-want "compromise" with the nuclear industry. Oodles of people are now coming off like they've always worked against it - even if they've only just signed a contract with Yello Strom.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

I have been watching NHK over the Internet a lot since they have an English-language stream.

It seems just now we're starting to get complaining from the very brave and stoic Japanese citizens.

And it's justified, after all, they can't get food or water, they can't gas up their cars and get away, and of course they have the threat of radiation disease hanging over their heads, depending on what happens with the damaged reactors.

Contrast this to New Orleans, where the wails were loud and clear from day one....

But I suppose I'd be a wailer too. I guess we're pretty spoiled here in the US.

Am I the only one who finds those uniforms the Japanese businessmen and lead politicians wear to be quite strange? What's up with that?

From the last thread:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 76):
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 72):

Nuclear power is the cleanest, most efficient, safest power source currently feasible.

Cleanest - yes, most efficient - yes, safest NO.

Cleanest, presuming you find a way to get rid of the waste.

One aspect of the current crisis is due to the fact that nuclear power plants have spent fuel rods sitting around because there's no easy way to get rid of them.

And I support ideas like Yucca Mountain, but the people of NV clearly don't.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 217):

That assumes that the generator is at sea level. The plant itself is higher than sea level (albeit not much above). Two things could be engineered into later plants that would mitigate this threat: build the facility outside the tsunami inundation zone and locate the generators in an area that is safe from flooding.

I wonder if generators can't be made "fault tolerant". With the tsunami coming, you switch over to battery power, and turn off the generators, and let them get soaked, and then rinse them off and restart? Of course they would also have to be housed in an enclosure that could take the beating of the tsunami.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 219):
How about putting a generator on top of the reactor, instead of the spent fuel rod pool?

Yes, in retrospect, one wonders about the wisdom of the elevated fuel rod pool as well. This is what is requiring the helicopters and the riot trucks.

[Edited 2011-03-17 07:37:01]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3374 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
People are going bonkers! I know those Geiger counters sold that this electronics department store are not particularly sensitive and essentially only good for the detection of gamma rays. In any case, most people probably don´t have a clue how to make a valid radiological measurement and what to look for.
Newpapers over here are really falling into the "We are all going to die horribly of radiation disease!" pattern.

Oh yes, people are going bonkers, stores here in Ontario are selling out of potassium Iodine pills! Fukushima is literally on the other side of the planet from us. And a big worry is that in 2-3 days the hospitals will be full of people with Iodine poisoning from taking the tablets incorrectly. News last night was reporting on a water leak at one of our nuclear plants like it was the end of the world until they mentioned it was unlikely to be radioactive in the least.

Hysteria is more dangerous than any melt down at Fukushima now.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1206 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 5):
News last night was reporting on a water leak at one of our nuclear plants like it was the end of the world until they mentioned it was unlikely to be radioactive in the least.

*facepalm*

Yay hysteria.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
I wonder if generators can't be made "fault tolerant". With the tsunami coming, you switch over to battery power, and turn off the generators, and let them get soaked, and then rinse them off and restart? Of course they would also have to be housed in an enclosure that could take the beating of the tsunami.

I think that's how the plant was designed in the first place. Except when the diesel generators went off line it switched to battery power that was only good for 24ish hours. I don't honestly know where the generators were/are located at this plant but it appears that wherever it was got swamped by the tsunami.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):

It seems just now we're starting to get complaining from the very brave and stoic Japanese citizens.

If I've taken anything away from this disaster its that I need to be much better prepared for an emergency. I live in an earthquake prone area, a similar event (minus the reactor) could happen here. I don't want to be one of those people waiting in line for 12 hours for a gallon of water and two cups of rice. I'll probably make it a point over the next 6 months to a year to make sure I have at least a weeks worth of food, water, fuel and heat if something like this happens in W. Washington.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKPHXFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 413 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
And I support ideas like Yucca Mountain, but the people of NV clearly don't.

It's not the whole of NV residents that disliked Yucca Mountain, it was mostly the very vocal Southern NV majority that didn't like Yucca Mountain primarily for the reason that should anything catastrophic happen, it's only 90 or so miles from Las Vegas.

I grew up in Las Vegas and saw several TV ads advertising how safe transportation of the nuclear waste was going to be as it wound it's way through Las Vegas on I-15 / US-95 up to Yucca Mountain. They showed a concrete cask with a simulated waste element being dropped from 15' onto a 3" diameter steel spike. It didn't puncture but that didn't stop NIMBY's from having their way with it.

Cheers,
Cory


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8442 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

I don't think this is the end of nuclear power nor should it but people are going to have to take a closer look at how to improve the safety in and around nuclear power plants, their structural stability integrity and its backup abilities.


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1937 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

I consider myself quite a staunch environmentalist, and I've been called a tree hugger right here on a.net. But I actually stopped giving to Greenpeace years ago because of the amount of their resources they waste on anti-nuclear campaigns that are ridiculous and counter-productive.

Right now, it is one of the best options we have. The primary downside of nuclear is when it diverts too much money from R + D on even safer, more sustainable solutions.

Anywho, I'm off to Germany in a few days, I'll be sure to pack my lead BVD's, to quote Tom Lehrer, and stock up on giger counters   



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19378 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

One problem is that people in general view nuclear power as "magical." They don't understand that it is subject to the same ordinary laws of physics that everything else is.

*They don't understand that background radiation varies and that many of us live in environments with higher background radiation than that which has been found in the city of Fukushima.
*They don't understand that radioactive waste becomes less radioactive as it is dispersed.
*They don't understand that even if the whole plant went "Chernobyl" the radiation to reach the North American continent would be less than one extra chest X-ray per American.
*They don't understand that nuclear fuel cannot ever, no matter what you do to it, make a nuclear explosion.

I still think that this plant is going to wind up under a sarcophagus.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 7):

I think that's how the plant was designed in the first place. Except when the diesel generators went off line it switched to battery power that was only good for 24ish hours. I don't honestly know where the generators were/are located at this plant but it appears that wherever it was got swamped by the tsunami.

I believe that the generators were housed in large trailers. The plant was designed for an earthquake. It was not designed to suddenly be under ten meters of rushing water.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
I believe that the generators were housed in large trailers. The plant was designed for an earthquake. It was not designed to suddenly be under ten meters of rushing water.

Maybe so. I'm curious why they haven't brought in large, containerized portable generators to replace the ones knocked out by the tsunami. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but you would think that military forces all over the world have these.

I watched some of the Japanese news coverage online today. The video footage of a helicopter dropping water on the plant and fire trucks taking turns spraying water doesn't exactly build confidence in their ability to handle the situation.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 12):
Maybe so. I'm curious why they haven't brought in large, containerized portable generators to replace the ones knocked out by the tsunami


The 2 major issues are that:
One, the electric motors for the pumps, motor control centers, breakers, starters, controls etc went under water and are most likely shorted with salt water (an excellent conductor) irregardless whether they have a generator or not.
Two, from the damage that I saw in the pictures from the explosions I would not be sure that there is any piping from point a to point b still usable.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
*They don't understand that even if the whole plant went "Chernobyl" the radiation to reach the North American continent would be less than one extra chest X-ray per American


The hysteria over people trying to purchase potassium iodide is amazing.
Most people are probably 5 million times more likely develop a brain tumor due to radiation emitted from a cell phone or proximity to wireless devices. Quite frankly they would be better off spending there efforts for a tin foil hat.

Okie


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7986 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3153 times:

In my opinion, I think we should start to look for alternatives to using uranium as nuclear reactor fuel--not only for safety and radioactive waste disposal reasons, but also the fact uranium is also increasingly hard to find.

Hence my suggestion for the liquid fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR). Thorium-232 is widely available (it's found anywhere where rare earth minerals are also found), and the LFTR reactor design--unlike the uranium reactor designs--are vastly safer, since the reactor can "naturally" shut down pretty quickly in case of any emergency. Best of all, LFTR's generate a tiny fraction of the radioactive waste that a uranium reactor generates, and the radioactive half-life of the waste from an LFTR is under 300 years, which means far less expensive means of waste storage (just dump it into any disused salt mine or salt dome).


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Am still watching NHK coverage, and am wondering why there isn't a larger effort to get food, water and fuel to the tsunami survivors?

Seems the future of nuclear power can be debated at a later time....



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3093 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
*They don't understand that background radiation varies and that many of us live in environments with higher background radiation than that which has been found in the city of Fukushima.

   Such as working in an number of buildings in central Washington, the Library of Congress being one and the Senate another IIRC.

Check out your kitchen for red granite.


User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):

Seems the future of nuclear power can be debated at a later time....

I disagree, in places such as Germany, the nuclear aspect of the disaster in particular has had an immediate adverse effect on the industry's prospects. It is a bit impotent to be debating the "future" of nuclear power when much of the points being debated are already decided in the halls of power. There is another topic for the earthquake / tsunami disaster as a whole, this one merely tackles the potentially worldwide ramifications of a small part of the overall disaster.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5665 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
People are going bonkers! I know those Geiger counters sold that this electronics department store are not particularly sensitive and essentially only good for the detection of gamma rays. In any case, most people probably don´t have a clue how to make a valid radiological measurement and what to look for.

People really are just dumb and hysterical. My brother works for an importer of a major Japanese car brand and he told me that they already had phone calls from potential buyers asking if their cars shipped from Japan are "radioactive" (it takes 2 months for the shipment to make to Europe) and if they can guarantee the car they will buy was made prior to the "explosion".  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19378 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):

Seems the future of nuclear power can be debated at a later time....

Our debate here has no effect on their plight.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Our debate here has no effect on their plight.

Nor on the future of nuclear power.

Still I have to wonder why the skies are not full of C-5s / C-17s doing parachute drops of bottled water and K-rations / MREs.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2860 times:
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Quoting RayChuang (Reply 14):
In my opinion, I think we should start to look for alternatives to using uranium as nuclear reactor fuel--not only for safety and radioactive waste disposal reasons, but also the fact uranium is also increasingly hard to find.

There are safer ways of using uranium (and other sources) to generate power than high temperature steam/pressurized water reactors. Pebble bed reactors can use almost any radioactive (from raw uranium ore, thorium, Cesium and other low grade sources to weapons grade plutonium, U238 and other high gamma sources) in the pebbles. Manufacture of the pebbles is the biggest deterent to this technology. China is playing with it, South Africa, Germany and others have experimented with it and one advantage is you CAN just shut off the plant and nothing really happens. Plus there is no waste fuel, the pebbles can be remanufactured over and over again. No need for cooling water, pools, etc.

Thorium isn't an unviable option, but it needs to be concentrated for most existing reactor designs which is an expensive process. Honestly we need to start reprocessing spent fuel instead of storing it. There are risks but Fukushima is showing that the worse option is letting it sit around.

Molten salt reactors, FliBe and other molten/heavy coolant/moderator and hybrid moderator/fuel designs are also an option, but they still have a meltdown risk, and waste fuel to deal with, though less so than with PWR, BWR and other pile or fuel rod designs.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19378 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 21):

Molten salt reactors, FliBe and other molten/heavy coolant/moderator and hybrid moderator/fuel designs are also an option, but they still have a meltdown risk, and waste fuel to deal with, though less so than with PWR, BWR and other pile or fuel rod designs.

Wait, how does a molten core melt down? That's like falling off the floor.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

From the previous thread :

aloges said

Quote:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 156):
And I'm guessing Germany must have asked for more of our electricity (which, of course, is mainly nuclear).

Why would we? Germany is a net exporter of electricity.

After some digging, you're right. We sometimes hear about how the French electrical capacity is strained because of exports and heat (or cold), including exports to Germany. But as I found out, if anything we import more from Germany than the other way around. It would be interesting to have details, I suspect we import some "green" electricity when there is over capacity (good winds) to make it appear as if we have more green electricity than in reality and maybe also because there is no practical way to stock it, while our nuclear plants can be slowed down (I think we're the only country to do that). The big net importer from our electricity seems to be Italy. By the way, hydroelectricity is also big here, 62TWh, but there is no way to expand the capacity.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
Am I the only one who finds those uniforms the Japanese businessmen and lead politicians wear to be quite strange? What's up with that?

You mean the jumpsuits or strange vests ? I wonder if it's inspired by the Americans ? To show they're action men and all, like when the US president is flying over this or that zone that suffered a natural disaster, wearing a pilot's blazer, or fireman or military or whatever uniform.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 5):
Oh yes, people are going bonkers, stores here in Ontario are selling out of potassium Iodine pills! Fukushima is literally on the other side of the planet from us. And a big worry is that in 2-3 days the hospitals will be full of people with Iodine poisoning from taking the tablets incorrectly.

Fortunately, those are not over the counter around here, only with a doctor's prescription.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
*They don't understand that nuclear fuel cannot ever, no matter what you do to it, make a nuclear explosion.

I saw yesterday on the telegraph website a video titled : "Amazing pictures of nuclear blasts"...



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2990 posts, RR: 37
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2797 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):

Wait, how does a molten core melt down? That's like falling off the floor.

Simple, the cooling phase or salt circulation stops and the fuel melts through the containment systems... or theoretically anways enough fuel particles could meet up and cause criticality. The 1st option would take weeks to months though and in some designs can be negated with passive cooling, and the second should be impossible as long as the fuel density is kept in check during the circulation cycle, assuming it is a dissolved fuel design and not just a molten salt cooled pile design.

The Molten Salt Reactor Experiment in the US did have serious problems discovered after shutdown, and in that design should circulation fail the salt in the secondary loop could cool enough to form fluorine gas and xenon, which if then sucked back into the heated cycle could cause an explosion. Additionally should circulation of the primary reactor loop fail, the fuel could solidify in the cooling portion of the cycle and block the entire system into a forced shutdown.

The other problem with molten salt dissolved fuel is that the salt must be reprocessed frequently, therefore a reprocessing plant is required on site, adding additional costs and more risk. And with a pile type molten salt cooled design the risks are the same as with any water cooled design.

Also the salt/fuel mixture itself is something that dispossal of has never been attempted on a large scale, the MSRE salt was left to solidify in the reactor before removal and caused serious radiation contamination.

Also MSRs are breeder reactors and can be used to make weapons grade fuel, so proliferation risks would be a serious concern to widespread adoption.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
25 RayChuang : I read up on the early MSR's and a big problem was the fact they were using expensive uranium hexafluoride as the liquid material to hold the dissolve
26 Dreadnought : I got this from my dad, who is classmates with this guy, an MIT-grad Nuke engineer.
27 Post contains images aloges : If only there were ways in this world to power things without nuclear or fossil fuels...
28 Revelation : Seems to be a correct summation, but a few days behind the times. Personally I could do without the gratuitous and uniformed anti-Obama rhetoric, but
29 Aesma : And of course, the plants that we are talking about are old designs, so it's not comparable to the Deepwater Horizon accident which happened to state
30 Baroque : Just as a matter of curiosity, have you ever worked with fluorine compounds - other than the very stable CaF2? I can see a variety of paths to chemic
31 MD11Engineer : Back when I studied chemistry, the joke was that all inorganic chemists were losing their hair early because of the fluorine compounds. In fact, most
32 Post contains links MD-90 : According to this MIT link, they were designed to withstand a tsunami about half the heights of what occured. The Fukushima power plants were require
33 Post contains images Baroque : It is also used to "digest" (love that phrase) siliceous minerals to free organic matter for OM concentrates. It is a technique that I avoid like the
34 Mir : Fuel pools are generally placed where minimum movement will be required to get the fuel from the reactor to the pool, as the fuel is highly dangerous
35 Post contains links NAV20 : The problems appear to be getting worse by the day. Radio-activity in the water under the reactors appears to be at catastrophic levels, and - even mo
36 ltbewr : The situation in Japan is getting much worse, it is now approaching Chernobyl levels. Clearly this is going to cripple Japan as to it's economy and it
37 okie : Not sure, but I am sure that a sarcophagus would be the route to take at this point. I would speculate that we are talking at least months of cooling
38 Baroque : True, but where is Connies to give us the real answers!!! Hope it is non-disclosure problems and not that he is not able to post. Re the H2 release,
39 aloges : I've had a brain wave - or fart, possibly - on how to ensure that. Since nuclear power plants are often not properly safeguarded when for-profit corp
40 Post contains links Baroque : I certainly sympathise with the idea of looking for a better "mousetrap" but not sure of NGOs either. I would favour removing the "for profit" bit as
41 okie : I not going out on a limb about the plants themselves being cash cows, but for the country that they provide the energy to produce products and raise
42 Post contains images NAV20 : I'm not sure how putting the stations on a 'not for profit' basis would help. It would have all sorts of 'side-effects;' not least, that power produc
43 Revelation : Another aftershock being reported with magnitude 6.5 off Miyagi, with tsunami alert which was canceled shortly thereafter. Seems this tragedy will jus
44 Post contains links and images Baroque : Therein lies the problem that I think Aloges and I were addressing at least in part. Most of the answers are well known, but they can be summarised a
45 L410Turbolet : "Gratuitous" anti-Obama rhetoric? Concerns that the biggest fallout of this whole crisis in Japan will be politicians following their gut instincts a
46 Revelation : Reply #26 points out that this so-called nuclear re-birth was already stillborn, for reasons that long predate the Obama administration, yet there wa
47 Post contains images Baroque : Not only yes, but this disaster is in effect a test that should never have been allowed to be so exhaustive, but a test that should be used to develo
48 okie : Correct, my bad While I see your point on the additional generators, the problem here was the Tsunami. Even now as they are trying to back feed the s
49 Baroque : Which is a hell of a plus!!! If only sea water did not have all that NaCl, even that would not have been as much of a problem as it is!!
50 Post contains images Klaus : In Germany, yesterday's parliamentary elections in two major region states (and local elections in a third) have shown a seismic shift in the politica
51 NorthStarDC4M : Again, Fukushima and Chernobyl are very different situations. Fukushima is having some radiation leakage of short half- life isotopes, which will eit
52 Klaus : Plutonium contamination has just now been found outside of the reactor buildings in Fukushima. The examined samples had already been taken a week ago,
53 NorthStarDC4M : The reactor 3 used fuel pool would be the most likely source for the Pu-238 and Pu-239 that are being reported in the samples. Both are contained in
54 Revelation : I'm in general agreement with your points. However I'm not sure what type of alternative energy sources could have been chosen in the 60s and 70s whe
55 Post contains images Klaus : Even back then investment into water, wind and bio-gas would have been very much feasible, but investment into efficiency gains would have been even
56 NoUFO : That's of course the thousand- or million-dollar question. There's a organization that cannot be considered "Green", "left" or whatever claiming that
57 Klaus : As far as jobs are concerned, nuclear power has lost the advantage many years ago already. The number of jobs in the entire nuclear industry is quite
58 NoUFO : I wasn't thinking about jobs but rather grid load balance, notoriously the weak point of renewable energies - with the exception of hydropower, which
59 Post contains images mt99 : There is always coal
60 NoUFO : Mt99, I do not wish to replace nuclear energy with electricity from coal fired plants.
61 Klaus : There have been rather promising test runs of intelligent load balancing already, with a large number of renewable sources automatically coupled into
62 Post contains images mt99 : I know.. i was being sarcastic This is the whole idea begin the "smart grid" proposed in the US. That of course takes $$$ and most importantly it tak
63 okie : From what I remember the "smart grid" was going to cost the average consumer $1,800.00 per year per household. I just do not think a family getting b
64 mt99 : Where did you hear that?
65 Post contains links NAV20 : True enough as far as it goes, Baroque. But at least once a mining disaster was over, it was over. What this accident, on top of Chernobyl, brings ho
66 Klaus : The "smart grid" is a pretty broad term and can be misunderstandable. What I was referring to is the networked coordination of power generators for s
67 Baroque : If I can be forgiven the pun, it was just a black joke. Not that the terms blackj coal or brown coal are used now in the new ISO classification of co
68 Klaus : Unless you're closer to one of the dirtier nuclear installations. And unless you're dealing with a more modern fossil power plant with up-to-date fil
69 Post contains links Baroque : Well they are difficult to get past 99% of the fly ash, and you still have the problem of the ash disposal. I know it sits there, does not foam, or e
70 Post contains images Klaus : I beg your pardon? How so? That's positively peanuts compared to what Ukraine (including other countries up to and beyond Germany) have to deal with,
71 Baroque : The argument is quite the opposite. It is very easy to detect radiation, but detecting metallic pollution takes a considerable amount of analytical c
72 Klaus : That aspect is again added to all the other problems of nuclear facilities – it took a week to detect the plutonium contamination outside of the Fu
73 Post contains images aloges : This is guesswork from a layman, but in general I find the French to be less in love with revolutionary engineering than with tried-and-tested techno
74 Post contains images Klaus : Not everywhere any more – Baden-Württemberg has just "fallen" to the Greens, and with it EnBW, one of the biggest nuclear operators which was boug
75 Post contains images Baroque : Well I might be seen as an "a d" but I am just trying to point out that what are considered as "normal" and "safe" systems are in some/many cases ass
76 NAV20 : But surely acquisition of the plants by governments would simply mean said governments (i.e. the taxpayer/electricity consumers) having to bear ALL t
77 Post contains links Baroque : http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3179546.htm A prominent convert to nuclear power from the Japanese disaster turns out to be George Monbio
78 Post contains links NAV20 : By the standards of this ongoing disaster, this report almost qualifies as 'good news':- "Highly radioactive water has been found leaking from Japan's
79 Post contains links ltbewr : "Ukraine has issued an international plea for millions of pounds of funding to help rebuild the sarcophagus of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor amid warn
80 Post contains links NAV20 : Some possible 'good news' for once; they claim that they've stopped the water leak into the sea, anyway:- "In order to stem the leak, Tepco (the Tokyo
81 Pellegrine : People need to stop all these histrionics. The modern world is too addicted to energy to completely forgo nuclear power without a major new technologi
82 Post contains images Klaus : That is not going to happen. This assumes that there were no renewable energy sources, which is incorrect even now, and most definitely with the boos
83 Post contains links NorthStarDC4M : Untrue, cheaper is relative, more efficient is dependant on the generation type used, more reliable is about the only true point, less risky than? se
84 Post contains images connies4ever : Well, I've been out of the loop for several weeks now due to medical issues. But I'm back... I''ll admit my bias upfront, but I would agree that overa
85 Post contains links connies4ever : This is a continuance of my post from yesterday. Had to take a reality break to watch Rory mcIlroy continue his great play at The Masters. Yes, the Fr
86 Baroque : Glad you are back from med adventures. Gives another perspective to this thread. So one para of connies4ever >>> than 15 mins of Googling va
87 Post contains links Aesma : About accidents in France I found that two level 4 events happened, in the same plant, in reactors of an old graphite moderated, gas cooled design : h
88 Post contains images connies4ever : Yes,graphite-moderated reactors. that's all. Windscale, need I say more. Chernobyl also graphite-moderated, with carbon-tipped rods, which contribute
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