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Behind The American 'Kill Team' In Afghanistan  
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

What an Incredible article written by Mark Boal from Rolling Stone Magazine.....A must read about the occurrences of civilian deaths in Afghanistan and the men behind them.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42304341...world_news-south_and_central_asia/


"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

As much as I respect the military I really hate the fact that we have sick f**ks serving like these guys. They dropped down to the level of the Taliban or worse by going on their random killing sprees.

And people wonder why we are hated worldwide.   


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

These dicks should be handed over to the Afghan authorities and let them deal out the justice, a couple of old ladies with skinning knives would be fair enough. I believe that's what used to happen with captured Soviet soldier during the Russian occupation.

User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

Remember the source, guys. Rolling Stone does not have a good reputation about telling the truth about the military - they have an agenda - as we saw last year. I'm not saying this never happened, but I would treat this as nothing more than rumor at this point.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2115 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Rolling Stone does not have a good reputation about telling the truth about the military - they have an agenda - as we saw last year. I'm not saying this never happened, but I would treat this as nothing more than rumor at this point.

WTF? I'm all for balance; but several of these guys have already been convicted, by US authorities, and some have made full, corroborated confessions, which are well documented. How on earth could you say that this is nothing more than a rumor?

Absolutely mindblowing, and not worthy of your usual post quality.

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Remember the source, guys. Rolling Stone does not have a good reputation about telling the truth about the military - they have an agenda - as we saw last year. I'm not saying this never happened, but I would treat this as nothing more than rumor at this point.

I believe the story itself is true, and it is a well written article. My only problem is the fact that they felt the need to demonize the service members without trying to explain what may have led the service members in question to such drastic actions, maybe a visit to a psychologist and presenting the opinions of that psychologist could have really added depth to the article....for now it just seems like a well written Hollywood drama.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2918 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
rumor at this point.

Rumor? They even took pictures of themselves, as if killing people is something to brag about... Der Spiegel has more:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752918,00.html
The article also states that one of the members of this "team" has already been sentenced. I don't see at all how this can be a rumor.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 4):
Absolutely mindblowing, and not worthy of your usual post quality.

I think you're misunderstanding him. I thought the article was a bit fishy. I don't think anyone is denying the murders took place, but I believe the officers in charge may not have known. There are several examples Rolling Stone is using, like saying that the boy's father told the officers it was murder. But if you were an officer (and try to not Monday night quarterback it, really try and look at it through the CO's eyes) would you believe an Afghan, or a few of your soldiers (including an NCO?) I'm sure most real-terrorists or collaborators say the same thing. Or about "everyone knowing about the photos," according to who? Rolling Stone? Some private? There is a hierarchy in the military, and you're not gonna have a bunch of low ranking enlisted men bragging to lieutenants and captains.

No doubt some of these soldiers are scum, but I think Rolling Stone is leading many people into thinking that this event was way bigger than a couple of soldiers. Just some sensationalism thrown in there. RIP to the innocents though, thanks to these soldiers their job and the job of their comrades is that much harder.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
And people wonder why we are hated worldwide

Honestly, anyone that demonizes an entire nation, and it's people, because of the actions of a few psychopaths (who were brought to justice by that very same country) is a moron.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Just some sensationalism thrown in there.

  

Everyone talks of some big cover up, completely ignoring the fact that these people were convicted of their crimes in as public a setting as a military courtroom can be.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):

I guess I don't understand the point of this thread, or the article.

It's already been pointed out by a few people: these kids were caught, and have either plead guilty, or are awaiting trial. This isn't another My Lai... the system is working exactly how it is suppose too. The United States Army has already profusely apologized to the villagers, tribal leaders and family members. I fail to see the point of releasing more of these photos and videos, other than scoring political points.

But on a side note honestly, as an Army officer, I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened more often. American youth are freakin' weak. The quality of the recruits that came in over the past 5 years has been abysmal, and we're starting to see the consequences.

This story does not speak about the failure of the Army. Hell no. This story speaks directly towards the rapid decline of America, and her next generation. This isn't just about the depraved behavior in Afghanistan, this is about the streets of Los Angeles, or Detroit, or even in small town middle America.

Face it... Futurepilot16's peers are nothing more than a bunch of losers. We're so f'ed in the ass, as a nation.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
Face it... Futurepilot16's peers are nothing more than a bunch of losers
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
This story speaks directly towards the rapid decline of America, and her next generation.

I disagree slightly. I think it's more that we have a de facto draft going on right now. In weak economies, kids with no hope of ever breaking out of the "loser" lifestyle up and join the Army, because they're the only branch that doesn't require a technical skill to enter. You can shoot a gun? You're in. They don't really want to go, but there's literally nothing else. You HAVE to join the military.

Believe me when I say that our generation is not a bunch of degenerate losers, you're just seeing the worst side of it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):

Face it... Futurepilot16's peers are nothing more than a bunch of losers. We're so f'ed in the ass, as a nation.

WTF are you talking about. I posted this article because I thought it was a well written article about a story that has been mostly covered up by the military. I didn't offer any of my own personal opinions the military in the OP, maybe you should read it next time before posting out of anger.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 11):

I think it's because this article misleads. It mislead me, it took me a few pages before I realized that the soldiers had ALREADY been prosecuted. And there is a constant barrage of "the officers knew about this they are so bad!" and other BS like that. I think it's a deceiving article, and right when I saw the title of this thread I thought "oh no not one of these again!" I'm surprised though, the usual US military bashers haven't come out the wood work. Maybe they realize not all of us are Neanderthals like a few of these rouge soldiers.

As for the Army "covering it up..." well come on, what do you expect. The Army isn't Wikileaks, it took care of these soldiers and prosecutors, I doubt they wanted to yell to the world "HEY LOOK WHAT WE DID TO THESE CIVILIANS!" I'm sure not everyone will agree with my statement, so many fighters for "transparency" these days, but it would be a dumb move for the military to let all these events come to light. I'm sure for every story like this there are many more the press doesn't know about, and many soldiers being disciplined, but for the safety of our troops, they aren't gonna broadcast the atrocities to the world and make a bunch of new terrorists.

I'm sure you never meant it like that, futurepilot16, but for some of us, "smear" is the first thought that comes to mind (not saying you, but the Rolling Stones is doing that in my opinion)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
I disagree slightly. I think it's more that we have a de facto draft going on right now.

It's not a draft, not in the least.

It's a situation where the viable pool of attractive applicants is quickly dwindling. And it's not for a lack of trying! But face it, there is simply a diminishing group of youth that are suitable to wear the uniform. What we have, is a generation that is increasingly becoming a group of comatose, apathetic and morally destitute fat bodies.

Just look at all these reports being released: each year the US military is turning more and more recruits away. Rejection rates are up! We can bemoan that application standards were dropped, and that's a valid argument. But what does it say that during the time of low standards - record numbers were still turned away? Record numbers! They were such friggin' losers, they couldn't even meet the lowest standards!

The fix to these situations, in a perfect world, is two fold:

- Increase the application standards for all recruits. However, back in reality, this could never work because the pool is already becoming shallow, increasing standards will precipitate the crisis.

- Allow boot camps to return to the crucible they use to be. If society is going to provide us sacks of horse shit, well... we need to be able to shape them up to standard. This would require politically incorrect treatment, and harsh training. I doubt the wimps of society will allow that.

So basically, like I said, we're so friggin' f'ed in the ass.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
In weak economies, kids with no hope of ever breaking out of the "loser" lifestyle up and join the Army, because they're the only branch that doesn't require a technical skill to enter.

lol, well to be fair, that's the Marines, not the Army. Brains and Marines is like matter and antimatter.  

[Edited 2011-03-28 22:25:59]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):

Honestly, anyone that demonizes an entire nation, and it's people, because of the actions of a few psychopaths (who were brought to justice by that very same country) is a moron.

Odd how so many people who say that... and then oppose the construction of Mosques.

Not sure if you're one of them, but boy it sucks to be on the receiving of "a few bad apples spoil the bushel."


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

My blood is boling reading this, I can imagine how terrorists must be feeling nowonder the hatered.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13048 posts, RR: 78
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
The quality of the recruits that came in over the past 5 years has been abysmal, and we're starting to see the consequences.

Well the article (which seemed pretty OK to me) did point out Morlock's 'history'.
Not the only one either - not related to these incidents - when this has cropped up again and again since Iraq ramped up in 03 and - not anticipated - stayed ramped up for years.

Given your point (experience) of standards, could it be that the answer is just a smaller military?
The answer comes back, true in the short term, that 'we need what we need for our foreign policy'.
Then adjust said policy.

The US spends more as a % of GDP of defence than any other Western nation by far, consequently it has more in uniform as a % of population too.
(If you factor out Conscript forces - though Germany has now ended it, France seems to be close behind - we also have to factor IN troops who will be sent into combat, which those conscript forces in Europe were/are not, since WW3 did not happen!)
Is that the problem? I doubt the average American kid is better/worse than ones in other Western nations.

A friend is a Senior NCO in the British Army - a 20 year veteran, including pre ceasefire Northern Ireland, former Yugoslavia, Iraq in 2003 and 2007.
I asked him what the kids are like - if you believe the British tabloid press it must be hopeless.
Those sorts of reports really rile him, he reckons the recruits are 'better than we were'.
As in technically adept, discipline, 'fearless' - or as he put it fuckin fearless!
While I don't have the figures to hand, I think that the UK has a rather smaller % of troops per population than the US.

About 100,000 in the regular army, a few thousand more in the Royal Marines, from a population of 61 million. BUT! that includes not only a couple of thousand Gurkha's but also there are a couple of thousand more from the Commonwealth.
South Africa, Fiji, the Caribbean (where VC winner Johnson Beharry came from) being notable examples - sadly I'm aware of this due to news reports of KIA's.
Then again, the British Army is overstretched! Even after Iraq ended for them.
Deep down, I think the powers that be actually prefer this if they can be choosy.
(Not to say their men have not at times behaved in a criminal fashion - but if Dreadnought thinks there are hostile elements of the press reporting on the US in combat, he should consider the UK!)

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
My blood is boiling reading this, I can imagine how terrorists must be feeling no wonder the hatred.

This is a hell of a propaganda victory for the Taliban.
So aside from the criminal acts towards Afghans, these 'men' have in effect further endangered their and all the other ISAF/NATO colleagues.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5442 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):

lol, well to be fair, that's the Marines, not the Army. Brains and Marines is like matter and antimatter.

I did leave out the Marines, in that you can go in as infantry/rifleman. But I'd be willing to bet over half of the Army infantry recruits wouldn't hack it in Parris Island or San Diego.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Odd how so many people who say that... and then oppose the construction of Mosques.

Not sure if you're one of them

I'm not, but I totally agree with you on the general amount of hypocrisy in the real world.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
but boy it sucks to be on the receiving of "a few bad apples spoil the bushel."

Which is why I don't judge people solely by association.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7285 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
But I'd be willing to bet over half of the Army infantry recruits wouldn't hack it in Parris Island or San Diego.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. I've seen some pretty sorry people make it through Marine boot camp. It's all PR. Doesn't matter what boot camp you go to or what specialty schools you go to, what badges you have, etc, it's where you're at and what you do when s*** hits the fan. I used to bash other branches and MOS's in the Army, but I found out that your position is not how you measure a man

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):

My blood is boling reading this, I can imagine how terrorists must be feeling nowonder the hatered.

I understand your anger, it angers me too to see this. Just please don't pass judgement on all US service members, as 99% of the ones I know are good people.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
these kids were caught

I respectfully disagree with this statement.....they were all over 18 yrs old, some in early 20s. In my opinion they are no longer "kids" they're adult men. Ironically some of these "kids" wouldn't be allowed to buy a six-pack back home but are "man" enough to fight in combat. When they do something horrible they suddenly become "kids" again.

One way the military can avoid incidents like this from happening again is not sending "kids" into combat until they are at least 21 years old. I'm sure there are many areas younger military personnel can be put to good use to support the cause.
Then after serving for a year or two and gaining some maturity and discipline they can go into a combat zone.



A330 man.
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1266 times:

A truly sad, sad story. Good luck to all relatives of these innocent victims.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I'm not saying this never happened, but I would treat this as nothing more than rumor at this point.

Rumor?  



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
And people wonder why we are hated worldwide



   .... US forces have performed thousands of acts of kindness , humanitarian assistance and stabilization missions in Afghanistan. We have spent billions in charitable efforts , built infrastructure and given the people at least a chance for peace. Goons like this are not the reason we are hated worldwide like you say ... if murder was the cause of hatred the Taliban and AQ should be topping the list.

They deserve severe discipline ... and it sounds to me that they are getting it...a firing squad would fit if they are in fact guilty.

But... some perspective from a civ who is actually with 5/2

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bullshit-on-rolling-stone.htm   



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
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