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Tech Companies Threaten To Leave San Francisco  
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

. . . because of their taxes.

"Several tech companies, including Twitter, Zynga and Yelp, have told city officials that San Francisco's tax code may make it financially unfeasible for them to stay in the city."

Now the city is considering a tax break, but only for politically connected companies in the hip and politically-approved tech industry:

"The temporary tax break would apply to technology companies that are located anywhere in San Francisco, have 100 employees or more and are not traded on a public stock exchange."

If you are not in this politically favored class or caste, you're not equal and don't get this benefit.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...03/28/BAI71IKTQP.DTL#ixzz1I7F0bfZ8


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

This is a race to the bottom. While I support lower taxes, the world is now exactly where corporations want it to be: governments fawning to give them tax havens (or we move to Bermuda), lowering wages (or we move to China), lowering benefits (or we move to Mississippi)... basically lowering everything that is their liability.

This is happening all over the world, corporations are holding hostage workers and regions. I'm all for business, but this attitude makes me sick.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
If you are not in this politically favored class or caste, you're not equal and don't get this benefit.

Interesting take on it. The named companies are highly visible and are widely expected to have extremely lucrative IPOs. I doubt the corner pizza man has similar clout worthy of a closer look.

For all the ragging on SF tax codes, why are Wells Fargo and Bechtel still headquartered there? Why do Barclays and JP Morgan maintain large regional offices there?

In any case this is not necessarily wise for cities to chase presence in favor of tax incentives. San Ramon, a tiny affluent suburb 30 miles east of SF, did the same to lure Chevron Corp. to move their HQ about a decade ago. Now that city is deep in the red. Was that a wise move?



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 1):
governments fawning to give them tax havens (or we move to Bermuda), lowering wages (or we move to China), lowering benefits (or we move to Mississippi)... basically lowering everything that is their liability.

Don't you personally have those same freedoms? If your hometown is terribly run and overridden with crime, you can move somewhere else? If your job doesn't pay you well enough or treat you well enough, you can quit and work someplace else, right? Why shouldn't companies have the same rights? At least these companies provided fair warning - most of the time the City/State would find out about a dissatisfied company moving out of the area in the newspapers, and here they have a chance to rectify the problem.

But they have taken the typical response for a liberal government. Instead of taking this as a message that maybe their taxes are getting too high across the board, they are keeping the bad practices and simply making exceptions. Kinda like Obamacare and the millions of people that have already been exempted from it because politically connected folks asked for it.

So much for equality of treatment under the law...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17500 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

No surprise--if you keep trying to kill business, eventually they'll take a hint and move elsewhere. Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
"The temporary tax break would apply to technology companies that are located anywhere in San Francisco, have 100 employees or more and are not traded on a public stock exchange."

So not Virgin America ?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2479 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula. If it wasn't an issue, Oracle, Google, HP, Apple, et al would have left already. The other significant factor is the tech-focused venture capital firms that are firmly rooted in Palo Alto/Mountain View and haven't budged since the 1970s. You don't just walk away from the people with the experience and know-how to bankroll to bring your tech dreams to fruition. They know the business, they can differentiate good from bad, and they have very deep pockets.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17500 posts, RR: 45
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula

I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet. If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily. Their company loyalty is famously ephemeral, and I don't think they're any more tied to the location. For now though the area does have a critical mass, but it can only take so much abuse from the city/state.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Don't you personally have those same freedoms? If your hometown is terribly run and overridden with crime, you can move somewhere else? If your job doesn't pay you well enough or treat you well enough, you can quit and work someplace else, right? Why shouldn't companies have the same rights? At least these companies provided fair warning - most of the time the City/State would find out about a dissatisfied company moving out of the area in the newspapers, and here they have a chance to rectify the problem.

They have the same right as any private entity. But when was the last time I had the option to ''get a 200% raise or I'm packing up to Luxembourg'', or ''get me my income tax scrapped or I'm heading to the Caymans''... No individual can really do that. So shoudn't you and me have the same rights as corporations?

They should be able to choose to set up business wherever they feel is better for them, but within certain boundaries of expectations... they already have the advantage of moving out of the country altogether to pay cents to the hour across the ocean, at least pay taxes here at home and do not ask for all these loopholes and concessions from municipal governments that are so desperate for jobs. That's just wrong, like holding food in front of a hungry child and asking for a back massage before giving it to him.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 7):
So shoudn't you and me have the same rights as corporations?

You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
For now

No, try since IBM, NASA, and Lockheed set up shop in the valley in the 1960s, followed by HP, Intel, Apple, SGI, and many other luminaries. The local brain trust has been well established for decades and is very much tied to location. The abuse you speak of has been present since the beginnings of the local real estate spikes in the mid-1980s.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
they are highly mobile

Historically this has not been the case in the industry. There are clusters around the country, yes, but established companies in the biz do not change physical location so often. How many times has Microsoft, Western Digital or Dell moved?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily

Individual workers, yes. En masse? No.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I don't think they're any more tied to the location

I disagree. Having grown up in the area, there is a significant proportion of market participants who are locally born and bred, to say nothing of the fact that significant employment remains in the region.

[Edited 2011-03-30 15:48:57]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):

There's no replacing the pool of talented tech workers and entrepreneurs who populate the San Francisco peninsula.

Sure. The machinists at Boeing thought that here in Washington then Boeing looked to South Carolina to start a second 787 line. And, I know people a lot of people that work for Boeing that would and have moved if the company asks them to to SC or KS. The anti-business attitude here in Washington is not as bad as California, but its certainly not good. If I was starting a new company it wouldn't be in WA or CA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
No surprise--if you keep trying to kill business, eventually they'll take a hint and move elsewhere. Not sure why anyone would base themselves in CA these days...

Completely agree. Everything costs more in California. At some point every company has it's tipping point for costs. Doesn't matter what market you're in.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17500 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Historically this has not been the case in the industry.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Individual workers, yes. En masse? No.

That may be the case in the past, but the days of finding a job where you live are fading fast, versus living where the work is. I think this tech generation is much more mobile than any of its predecessors, particularly after multiple downturns.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Having grown up in the area, there is a significant proportion of market participants who are locally born and bred, to say nothing of the fact that significant employment remains in the region.

It's no doubt California's to lose, but along with the exodus of other employers from the state, it would surprise no one if tech were to follow.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Chill, people. If you read the OP link you will note that the issue is with San Francisco's odd tax that affects companies and their employees who are about to do an IPO. It's a very legitimate concern for the likes of Twitter and their employees. The City of SF is dealing with this in a rational way, and any reports of the demise of Silicon Valley are premature.

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 10):
If I was starting a new company it wouldn't be in WA or CA.

Unless of course you were an entrepreneur starting a tech company that was going to need significant VC. In which case you would want to be located near people familiar with what you were trying to do and how to fund it.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
it would surprise no one if tech were to follow.

It would only be surprising if everyone split while the VC firms stayed put.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3645 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 12):
The City of SF is dealing with this in a rational way, and any reports of the demise of Silicon Valley are premature.

SF is not Silicon Valley and never was. SF was late to the tech game and only rose to minor prominence during the tech bubble. The question is, what were these companies thinking opening up shop in SF in the first place?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
The question is, what were these companies thinking opening up shop in SF in the first place?

Better take-out in San Francisco then in Mountainview.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2287 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
In any case this is not necessarily wise for cities to chase presence in favor of tax incentives. San Ramon, a tiny affluent suburb 30 miles east of SF, did the same to lure Chevron Corp. to move their HQ about a decade ago. Now that city is deep in the red. Was that a wise move?

I grew up in Dublin, right next to San Ramon, and one of their problems is that their incompetent City Manager is being paid over $300,000.00 per year. Heard that on the radio and newspapers when I was home on holiday. San Ramon is very small and cannot afford salaries like that. They need some competent management at ALL levels.

I love California, I just wish I could afford to live there!



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):

You're not a corporation. And if you had your own corporation you could move to wherever you want. Apples to oranges.

No, I guess I am not. I have fewer rights and less influence in my government.


User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

The cities in CA are making it more and more difficult to start/maintain a business. I hear customers all of the time complain about the crap the cities make them do and the loop holes/fees they have to go through year in and year out. I don't blame these guys. Go to a city and state that appreciate your tax $.

If I ran a business CA would be one of my least picks as a location (only from a business standpoint). It's just not worth it!



Go big or go home
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 7):
But when was the last time I had the option to ''get a 200% raise or I'm packing up to Luxembourg'', or ''get me my income tax scrapped or I'm heading to the Caymans''... No individual can really do that.

Sure you have those options. A ticket to either one of those countries costs less than $1000. Who says you can't leave? We aren't in a communist country.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

The problem with America today is that you're as free as Wal-Mart wants you to be!  


A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39884 posts, RR: 74
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
I doubt the corner pizza man has similar clout worthy of a closer look.


Are you kidding? That man sells MEAT!      
Think of all of those carbohydrates and saturated fats that Michelle Obama wants us to stop eating.

Remember the controversy surrounding Ike's Place sandwich shop. A restaurant forced by the city to close it's doors because it was too successful.
A self-made businessman loses his business and 50 people lost their job as a result. But of course those are just irrelevant working class stiffs that don't satisfy the politically-approved tech industry.


http://www.baycitizen.org/food/story...es-place-closing-becomes-campaign/


The city didn't make any effort to save the Parisian bread factory, Wonder bread and Hostess from closing their factories in San Francisco. 650 jobs (all union) were lost.
I'm sure a developer wanted to convert that property in to a luxury live work/loft or high-end condos with a few 'affordable housing' units set aside at only $900,000.00 for a 1 bedroom.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet. If the next hot company is in AUS, BOI, or DTW they'll go there pretty easily. Their company loyalty is famously ephemeral, and I don't think they're any more tied to the location.


Not so sure about that. The mild weather and endless amounts of outdoor activities, diversity are some of the main attractions to the San Francisco Bay Area.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Better take-out in San Francisco then in Mountainview.


That is true but Mountain View had an In-N-Out burger years before San Francisco.  
Quoting fridgmus (Reply 16):
I grew up in Dublin, right next to San Ramon, and one of their problems is that their incompetent City Manager is being paid over $300,000.00 per year.


YIKES! That's more than what big city mayors earn.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

I disagree; they are highly mobile, highly motivated, and probably not fixed to any particular corner of the planet.

Bull. They have families, friends, and lives, they love living here (it's easy to love), and they really don't want to move. On top of that, there's Stanford, which houses arguably the world's most prestigious engineering and computer science departments. (Oh, and there's that state school across the Bay, but they aren't worth mentioning   ).

That's also not something that these companies ignore.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39884 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
(Oh, and there's that state school across the Bay, but they aren't worth mentioning ).

Cal State University East Bay?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):

Cal State University East Bay?

Yeah, that one. It's in some hippie commune town where all the buildings are made of pot or something...


25 Post contains images Superfly : No. Cal State University East Bay used to be called Cal State University Hayward. You're thinking of UC Berkeley which has smart students like Stanfo
26 seb146 : No, because jobs are scarce and low paying and housing is sky high, so it will actually cost more to live someplace else. No, because there are so fe
27 DeltaMD90 : I knew that, I was referring in a more literal sense rather than a legal sense. You can have your company move to a foreign city without you having t
28 Post contains images Superfly : Well said on all three. However, I strongly disagree with this; No, no, no and NO! Large companies ESPECIALLY politically-approved tech industry comp
29 Post contains images RayChuang : I think San Francisco better find a way to keep Twitter and Zynga in the city because there's plentiful office space in the southern Bay Area that Twi
30 Post contains images DocLightning : And has a shitty football team, to boot.
31 MaverickM11 : That's true for any number of cities, but regardless it doesn't matter, If it did, there wouldn't be an endless parade of full moving trucks heading
32 Post contains images Superfly : Yes but the bear is way cooler than a damn tree! Those people aren't enthusiastic about Texas as a place to live. They're just happy to find work. I
33 MaverickM11 : I can only assume you've never met a Texan. Or a Californian transplant in Colorado for that matter.
34 Superfly : Most folks I know in Texas and Colorado are California transplants. Colorado at least has the Rockies, world class ski resorts and excellent mountain
35 goblin211 : Companies will still be in SF no matter what. when it comes down to it, why would that great city be so naive and let them walk? the reason is because
36 Aaron747 : Twitter was going to rent in the Mid-Market area, which actually has far cheaper rents than much of the peninsula. In recent years (going back to the
37 aa61hvy : Those cites are losing businesses by the week for the same reason. I know you are not a TX fan, but TX is a fantastic place to live and work. Now liv
38 Aaron747 : Case in point:
39 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Exactly In both states you have some of the more diehard fans I've ever met, both locals and transplants. As I've said, they're CA's to lose, but CA
40 Aaron747 : Compared to e-business, the film industry has tremendous fixed costs in terms of assets, union labor, materials, etc. The costs of location shooting
41 Post contains links and images DocLightning : You don't know the Tree. Our Tree >> Bear. See, Stanford's tradition is "Be Wacky." The Weenies' tradition is "Act like a typical state school.
42 Post contains links MaverickM11 : Those are all things that are also barriers to moving; the film industry has a lot more tying it down to a specific region than venture capital or in
43 Post contains images FRAspotter : You do know that the Stanford Tree is only the mascot for the band right? We may not have skiing, but if you claim that Texas doesn't have excellent
44 Aaron747 : Again, historically not the case. Look up the VC firms that are most active in the tech sector, and you will see very few located outside of CA. It's
45 PPVRA : I think its the other way around: VC will follow knowledge. VC doesn't really have much of a choice - they have to be close to this knowledge pool be
46 Aaron747 : VC came to the valley in the late 1960s and what has followed is what you might call a symbiotic relationship. Exactly the point I've been making - t
47 DocLightning : At least SOMEONE knows that. Stanford University has no official mascot.
48 okie : California Individual Income Tax Rate tops out at 10.3% which a lot of the big buck guys make. Texas Individual Income Tax Rate tops out a 0.0% That
49 Post contains images FRAspotter : Just a wild guess here, but are you a Stanford grad? My cousin got his Doctorate at Berkeley but he was really hoping for Stanford. Their campus is r
50 Aaron747 : As someone who went to neither but watched friends graduate from both, I can comfortably say both campuses are beyond impressive.
51 Post contains images DocLightning : Twice, actually. B.S. '00 (with Honors) M.S. '01 (both in Biological Sciences) BEAT CAL!!!
52 Post contains images DocLightning : Sorry, but Berkeley's is pretty, I'll grant it that, but... Stanford's is awesome. Truly awesome.
53 Post contains links and images Aaron747 : Oh no you didn't doc. Nobody denies the grandeur of Stanford's Spanish renaissance elegance, but the place lies on a huge old rancho and is simply ove
54 Post contains images Superfly : You're right that I haven't been to that part of Texas but it ain't no Marin County! Even the hills down the Peninsula and hills of the East Bay are
55 Post contains images MaverickM11 : It can and in all likelihood will. Again, it's one of the most competitive, fastest growing, most mobile sectors of the economy, and it's CA's to los
56 Aaron747 : Nobody demonizes tech in the Bay Area except perhaps jealous whiners who didn't finish their schooling. The city of San Francisco is a not demonizing
57 MaverickM11 : My point is that there is no guarantee it will stay, not that it shouldn't be there now.
58 Post contains images N1120A : Its always funny seeing the Stanford v. Berkeley thing. They have their cute little rivalry, while we Bruins laugh at their inferiority. And I'm sure
59 Post contains links and images Aaron747 : Seriously. See below: Continuing developments seem to be working against everything you've been posting. Google is opening an office for its entertai
60 AGM100 : Just read the article about Hawker Beechcraft in Mexico (AWST) ..... "wages starting at $2.50 a hour for assembly work". In 10 years we have only done
61 Post contains links sna752 : I wouldn't laugh. Both are better schools than ucla. And USC is also better than ucla. Taxpayers' burden... Fight On! http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/0
62 Aaron747 : Again, totally different industry with high fixed costs. Google's doing $8.5 billion in profits in a bad year (last year), with $45 billion in equity
63 Post contains links sna752 : Totally right. It seems that Google is only growing in California where absolutely essential. It seems that they have a hammered out a pretty solid d
64 sna752 : I'll have a USC>ucla war with you! Let's do it over email. My email address is @usc.edu. Is that okay with you? I have nothing against ucla, thoug
65 Aaron747 : LOL I have no dog in this fight actually as a lowly CSU grad.
66 N1120A : Only in your dreams. A Trojan is only good once. A Bruin is good forever.
67 MaverickM11 : A dozen CA lawmakers including Gavin Newsom are making the same trip next week to figure out what, if anything, Texas is doing right.
68 Post contains links Aaron747 : Who said CA lawmakers are bright, much less clued in to anything? They are from a state with a $25 billion budget hole, that will be closed to about
69 Superfly : Don't expect anything to come of such a trip. They'll realize that they'll have to cut funding to a lot of sacred cows. They would jeopardize their c
70 MaverickM11 : No one, but they are following the evidence that people/jobs/businesses have been leaving CA for neighboring states and TX, primarily. They're not go
71 okie : Sounds like a vacation at taxpayer expense. Why would it take moving a dozen lawmakers on a paid vacation to Texas to figure out what is wrong in Cal
72 Aaron747 : They are wasting time. There are no lessons in the current incarnation of Texas. TX will soon be competing with California for hours lost in commute
73 MaverickM11 : Apparently it's supported by campaign contributions and personal funds only No argument there.
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