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The Defence Cadet Scandal - What Would You Do?  
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2029 times:

http://www.news.com.au/features/adfa...-rape/story-fn8eum6d-1226036914555

This issue has been simmering for quite some days now. How would you approach this - what would you do about it?

Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge? I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

My own view is that this kind of behaviour must be addressed - and whatever is needed to be done must be done, even if that involves outside intervention - even if that tramples on traditionally held beliefs and ideas. But then I'm not part of the armed services, so what would I know.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2014 times:

Given that offences may have been committed including possible breaches of the Surveillance Devices Act and others, it should certainly not have been swept under the carpet. It only became public knowledge because the old boys club did not wish to take action.

The fact that there still is a culture of hostility towards female soldiers should be of public concern. Here is what the Australia Defence Association's views on the capability of women are, "The other thing the feminists never justify in their arguments is would they be prepared to have women suffer disproportionate casualties compared to men just to satisfy their whims." So there we have it: women don't wish to serve because they have equal rights and responsibilities in a democratic society. They do it to satisfy a "whim". And this guy thinks there isn't a problem of culture with the armed forces? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/12/3189104.htm


User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 962 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Another forum I frequent is a parenting forum. The view there amongst women currently serving and the partners of servicemen was that the rugby league culture is exponentially more respectful of women than the military culture - which, given the sex and rape scandals in rugby league is saying a lot.

How to change it, I don't know. Openess, education and a ruthless approach to infractions would be a start.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1964 times:

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge?
Quoting Quokka (Reply 1):
Given that offences may have been committed including possible breaches of the Surveillance Devices Act and others, it should certainly not have been swept under the carpet. It only became public knowledge because the old boys club did not wish to take action.

I think one of the girl's complaints was that the perpetrators were advertising it so she made it public to give her side of the story.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 2):
that the rugby league culture is exponentially more respectful of women than the military culture - which, given the sex and rape scandals in rugby league is saying a lot.

If it so, that would only be because of the disastrous publicity the rugby league has been attracting and measures taken to try to lower that.

Wonder if the military will receive their main penalty in the upcoming budget. Go to your corner and receive no extra funds for three years or until you can demonstrate you have changed. Very tempting!! They might find themselves up the Swannee River without a paddle.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1934 times:
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Whilst the actions of the (insert expletive) that recorded and broadcast the activities between himself and "Kate" are reprehensible and without question he should be shown the gate, and hoping it slams him on the butt on the way out. The young lady in question is not completely above reproach either, she had additional disciplinary actions outstanding against her in addition to the fraternization offences of the event in question.
It is easy to blame "defence culture" for this episode but this group of young people had been at ADFA for 2 months, that is not time to become part of the culture*, their actions are a product of where they came from not where they are.. their schools, their environment and yes mum & dad Australia, their families.
If one is serious about a career as an officer in the ADF(or any military) one does not have disciplinary issues involving fraternization and (allegedly) AWOL and alcohol in the first few months of academy life.
One wonders if "Kate" perhaps went public as some misguided attempt at damage control.

* I am not attempting to claim the ADF does not have gender issues, I just don't think this case is the best illustration of those issues.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
Whilst the actions of the (insert expletive) that recorded and broadcast the activities between himself and "Kate" are reprehensible and without question he should be shown the gate

I was actually thinking of some of the other disgusting cases that have come to light recently, rather than that one in particular.

It looks like the flood gates have opened though - and this one incident has prompted many other people to come forward. If there are that many allegations of wrong doing - as it seems, then there has to be an investigation to determine what has happened, if anything, and what needs to be done about it. And the investigation must have some teeth, it can't just be something that can be hid away and disregarded.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13043 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

We have had a number of scandals and serious criminal behaviors at our Military Services Academies in the USA. Unfortuntaly, military forces tend to like to keep them quiet, they hate scandal. Just like in regular society, you are going to get a cross section of persons who will commit acts of sexual assult and other criminal behaviors. There is also the fear of false allegations, as may be the case here, but more likely there are lot more abuses that never see the light of day, some suffer, some never see the penalties they deserve. The best prevention is clear rules know to all up front, to demand honorable behaviors and for those that see them, that as officers to follow honor codes and notify others to cause investigations and subsequent criminal proscution.

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1905 times:
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Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

In a sense ... yes, I agree with that. In the military, there is a chain of command, and if someone steps outside that chain of command and whinge to the media, then I can't say I have much sympathy. She may not have known that she was being filmed, but having sex with a fellow cadet is fraternisation, and that is simply not on. She is not entirely without blame herself. It makes me wonder whether she even reported this incident up the chain of command, because she knows that she would effectively be admitting to fraternisation, and her career would be over.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
The young lady in question is not completely above reproach either, she had additional disciplinary actions outstanding against her in addition to the fraternization offences of the event in question.
It is easy to blame "defence culture" for this episode but this group of young people had been at ADFA for 2 months, that is not time to become part of the culture*, their actions are a product of where they came from not where they are.. their schools, their environment and yes mum & dad Australia, their families.
If one is serious about a career as an officer in the ADF(or any military) one does not have disciplinary issues involving fraternization and (allegedly) AWOL and alcohol in the first few months of academy life.

I agree entirely. If someone joins the military, they know very well what the military lifestyle requires of them - the biggest thing is discipline. If they don't have the self-discipline to keep their hands to themselves (among others), then they don't deserve to wear the uniform.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
I agree with that. In the military, there is a chain of command, and if someone steps outside that chain of command and whinge to the media, then I can't say I have much sympathy.

So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...s-old/story-e6frg8yo-1226036257416

Sometimes, things need to escape that chain of command and get out to the media in order to effect change, otherwise things may well just be covered up. But that is of course a last resort and certainly something you wouldn't do lightly.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
Unfortuntaly, military forces tend to like to keep them quiet, they hate scandal.

We've seen examples in civil service too where so-called "whistle-blowers" have been threatened for releasing damaging information on corrupt/sub-standard conduct on various things. Typically, it's about something that has been happening for a long time, the individual has raised concerns about it - nothing has been done, so they go public with the information.

[Edited 2011-04-12 07:03:40]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...57416

Alas not a great surprise. And:
One of the perpetrators said openly that "she was a drunk slut, she had it coming". That person is now a senior officer in the ADF.
He and colleagues are likely to be the ones now making senior admin decisions.

It is clear from some of the interviews relating to the enquiries that Smith and co are well aware of the problems they face.

Will they succeed? Hard to know. Some of the bastardization stories were simply awful.

Is that how mateship is established. If it is, then perhaps mateship should be declared un-Australian just a bit before Wilkie is declared so. Wonder if Wilkie will speak on this BTW. He might well have something interesting to say. Howard's friends may well rue the day they pissed off a determined guy such as Wilkie.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
It is clear from some of the interviews relating to the enquiries that Smith and co are well aware of the problems they face.

We have to see what happens in light of all of these allegations. They will need to be investigated carefully - and by someone (or a team of people) outside of the establishment. It has to be open and transparent, and what recommendations are made, they must be followed through.

It may well be something that is not widespread, but that's what a thorough and transparent investigation must establish.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
We have to see what happens in light of all of these allegations. They will need to be investigated carefully - and by someone (or a team of people) outside of the establishment. It has to be open and transparent, and what recommendations are made, they must be followed through.

I got the impression that his office had been flooded with so many, he has probably put on staff just to list them. Then they will have to be referred to someone* not wearing hob nailed boots to find out what needs to be investigated. Otherwise, Smith will be in more hot water than Kafer.

*Someone will have to be at least two folk, one male and one female it is clear already!


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1791 times:
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Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
So, how about this then:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...s-old/story-e6frg8yo-1226036257416

Sometimes, things need to escape that chain of command and get out to the media in order to effect change, otherwise things may well just be covered up. But that is of course a last resort and certainly something you wouldn't do lightly.

You're right in that sense. If nobody on the outside knows what's happening inside, then things do not get changed. But the difference between the article you posted and the case of the cadet in question is that the author of that article was assaulted, whereas this female cadet had consensual sex with a fellow cadet. What happened to the author of the article was just as wrong as what happened to this female cadet, but the female cadet herself is not entirely without blame because she fraternised with another cadet. All parties involved had blame in this incident, including the female cadet, and she should be disciplined for fraternisation just as the other cadets involved in the filming and distribution of the footage be disciplined for various other breaches.

It's not so much that she brought it to the attention of the media that angers me, but the fact that she is making herself out to be the victim. If she were a civilian, perhaps that would be true, but in the military, fraternisation is an offence. The old saying about people in glass houses springs to mind ...

I would take an entirely different stance on the matter if she were in fact sexually assaulted and the people in her chain of command tried to cover it up. However, she admitted to having consensual sex with another cadet.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 962 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
but the fact that she is making herself out to be the victim.

Both she and the male broke the fraternisation rules. From what has been reported, the sex was consensual.

But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2778 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
However, she admitted to having consensual sex with another cadet.

That she did.

However, she didn't consent to having it broadcast to all and sundry., thats when the wheels started to fall off


And yet another side to this story...

"Defence Force rocked by vicious gay-hate campaign on Facebook"

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...gn-on-facebook-20110412-1dcqa.html

Reason for no investigation. No one was assigned to the job at various stages over the past eight months.

What a joke !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1757 times:
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Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
Both she and the male broke the fraternisation rules. From what has been reported, the sex was consensual.

I'm not saying that the male cadet did not break the fraternisation rules - they both did, and they both should be punished for it. However, the male cadet is more culpable by actually filming the event and (allegedly) was also involved in the broadcasting and distribution of the footage.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?

She didn't. But that doesn't make her any less guilty of fraternisation. She may have been a victim in the sense that she didn't know that her private activities with another cadet were to be broadcast to all and sundry, but not in the sense that she had fraternised with another cadet. In any case, all cadets involved in the fraternisation and in the filming and distribution of the video footage should be booted out of ADFA asap. The ADF do not need this type of people to become future officers.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 15):
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 13):
But where exactly did she broadcast the two of them having sex again?

She didn't. But that doesn't make her any less guilty of fraternisation.

Remind me which offence you think is more serious, fraternisation, or illegal transmission of arguably pornographic images?


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1699 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Remind me which offence you think is more serious, fraternisation, or illegal transmission of arguably pornographic images?

The latter, but that doesn't justify what she did. She broke the rules, then cried to the media, and now the ADF's image is tarnished because one cadet couldn't keep her mouth shut. This affair would never have happened had she not agreed to having consensual sex with another ... there would've been no fraternisation, and there would've been no film.

There is an excellent column that shows the other side of the story:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/a...xcuse_this_attack_on_our_military/

Quote:
As for the girl, now described as “innocent” and even “slender”, is it really so strange that Kafer wanted to impose discipline on her, too?

In just two months at his academy, she’d already broken three rules and then rushed to the media to demand the justice her superior was working on.

This does not strike me as the behaviour of a cadet who’s officer material, likely to inspire respect and loyalty among those she’ll one day lead, and Kafer would have betrayed his duty to the rest of us to have overlooked it.

The female cadet is far from innocent in this affair, and I really fail to understand why the media is portraying her to be the victim of a brutal defence culture when the actual fact of the matter is that she broke the rules - more than once, if the article above is correct. The outcry emerged when CDRE Kafer called for her to apologise for her multiple breaches of discipline ... then Mr Smith wanted CDRE Kafer's head on a platter. The media reported this event with a very anti-ADF bias, the government over-reacted, and the media then fanned the flames a bit more. Is it any wonder that ACM Houston threatened to resign had Smith forced CDRE Kafer to leave?

I don't feel any sympathy for this female cadet. She should be punished according to the DFDA, along with all the other cadets involved in the filming and distribution of the footage. When she signed up to join ADFA, she knew (or ought to have known) what she was signing up for. If all perpetrators in this sad state of affairs isn't discharged, then there's something seriously wrong with the system.

[Edited 2011-04-13 08:20:11]


Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1670 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
If all perpetrators in this sad state of affairs isn't discharged, then there's something seriously wrong with the system.

There we agree as long as it is "are not" just to make sure it is a plurality.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
. When she signed up to join ADFA, she knew (or ought to have known) what she was signing up for.

BUT, you really cannot mean this can you? Signed up to be a porn star - I don't think so.

You may be right that she was impatient, but take the Voyager disaster as an example, you really would not want to rely on swift action from the military. What they did to the skipper of Sydney was criminal and someone should have gone to jail for it. Care to bet that someone here was not also negligent. I would not care to bet that. It may be that they were following the rules as fast as they could, but I would not want to bank on that.

Sometimes when in a hole, it is best to stop digging. But it seems the military are intent on building a bunker buster proof trench system. News for them, one TV set can entirely ruin your bunker. And so can Skype evidently.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Quoting cpd (Thread starter):
Should it have been kept quiet rather than becoming public knowledge? I've seen some people suggesting, perhaps sarcastically that the people involved should accept it and "harden up". Do you agree?

Morale is crucially important in the military and you cannot have good morale without standards. Morale is undermined by a failure to impose standards. The leadership of the military lead by example; in the defence academy, you're training the leadership of your country's military for years to come; it is quite right that the public, other officers and the enlisted troops know that the highest standards of behaviour will apply; how are these people supposed to command respect if they come through a process deemed to be tainted? The majority who were not involved in unacceptable behaviour deserve not to be tainted by association. It is, of course, particularly important for female officers; not to have this kind of behaviour treated very seriously undermines them and makes their job of asserting command and leadership very difficult.

Solution: all found to be involved in this behaviour need to be expelled from the academy. Period. Their behaviour makes them unfit to be officers.


User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 7):
She may not have known that she was being filmed, but having sex with a fellow cadet is fraternisation, and that is simply not on.

I do not know the rules for fraternization within the ADF, in my experience however, rules regarding fraternization do not generally punish relationship within and among individuals of the same rank or corps (in the US Military, commissioned officers can date other commissioned officers, so long as they is not dating of individuals above or below in the chain of command), rules do prevent relationships between commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers, or between non-commissioned officers and junior enlisted personnel.

Second, it takes two to tango, they BOTH knew that sex was not permitted and they both engaged in sex within their corps. Besides when punishing two servicemembers for fraternization, the higher ranking individual is almost always punished more severely, especially when that individual used his or her position of authority to have such a relationship.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Periodically Defense Departments have a problem that becomes public. THe US Navy just "changed personnel" (including the Commanding Officer) on the USS Stout because of poor leadership:

http://www.military.com/news/article...-uss-stout-cited.html?ESRC=navy.nl

I guess I was abnormally fortunate during my time in the Navy as my CO's were outstanding and were promoted to Admiral. And one XO was eventually promoted to CINCPACFLT and then CNO.

The issues faced in Australia are essentially the same we have seen - poor leadership. It would seem that, with all of the competition in the military for promotions and commands, we can expect those in positions of leadership to fully address these types of issues BEFORE they make it to the media.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2778 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
The issues faced in Australia are essentially the same we have seen - poor leadership. It would seem that, with all of the competition in the military for promotions and commands, we can expect those in positions of leadership to fully address these types of issues BEFORE they make it to the media.

Not sure about that Ken777, you might be right ?

Whoever the CO is, there will always be a few rotten apples in the box, and as these are essentially new recruits, I'd imagine it will take some time before they all get "accustomed" to what life in the armed forces is like, eg, whats acceptable behavior and whats not.

The CO has been stood aside, pending the outcome of the inquiry !

But yet the perpetrators of this event, are still at the academy (Female victim has been granted compassionate leave)

One starts to wonder who the scape goat will be, my bet is the CO .

[Edited 2011-04-13 15:32:40]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
One starts to wonder who the scape goat will be, my bet is the CO .

I do not think scapegoat is the appropriate term in this case. If the CO maintains a poor command climate - and this poor command climate leads to these kinds of issues or the suppressions of these issues, it is in essence the CO's fault.

If, as a Platoon Leader, I were to take a relaxed attitude towards drunk driving and one of my soldiers were to get in a car accident and kill an innocent bystander, you can bet that I would be fired and get passed over for company command.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1578 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Remind me which offence you think is more serious,

I don't think there is any doubt which is the more serious offence, just the media(most) is attempting to portray it as the only offence.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
What they did to the skipper of Sydney was criminal

Bringing any charges against the Captain of the Sydney for the Voyager incident would have indeed been inappropriate as the collision was between the HMAS Voyager and HMAS Melbourne.
Or my learned friend were you referring to the Hayman/Hooke Island incident where the Captain of the HMAS Sydney was indeed facing cout martial and aquitted on a technicality?



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
25 TheCommodore : So why is it that only (at this stage) the CO has been stood down, yet the actual people who committed the offense are still enjoying life ! To me, t
26 Post contains images Baroque : Ooops. Serious brain fade. Sorry and thanks for the correction. I mean Melbourne of course - must have written Sydney to avoid offending the Mexicans
27 Post contains images TheCommodore : Hi there Baroque, That could be tricky for Rupert at this point in time. He's a little tired up with his British problem (Remember, the telephone tap
28 Post contains images Baroque : That is the problem I was referring to. Does he have another one? Hope so. Anyway, getting back to the British problem, if he can solve that where a
29 Springbok747 : Thought the sex was consensual..so don't know what is causing all this media frenzy...the fact that he broadcast it to others? Or the fact that it hap
30 cpd : It's not just this one case, but a feeling of many issues - which the reported flood of complaints would seem to suggest. And then the most recent is
31 Post contains links Baroque : And now an even more curious turn. From this: http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3189931.htm Andrew Wilkie claims pokies industry death threats a
32 Post contains links Baroque : Now Richard Ackland brings Murdoch and the Defence academy incident together at http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...vacy-snatchers-20110414-1dfur.h
33 cpd : If that's the case - Wilkie's career as a politician is finished - damaged beyond repair. Politicians have been axed for far less than this - and the
34 Post contains images TheCommodore : I must say, I wouldn't be losing an sleep if it was finished. Just goes to show, that history will always catch up with you. Listened to him give an
35 cpd : He needs to come clean on what has happened, be open and accountable. It's what you accept when you become a politician or a civil servant. No option
36 TheCommodore : Hey cpd. Please show me a modern day polli who ever comes clean about anything. We are all still trying to get a straight forward answer out of Julia
37 cpd : Well, I'm not making any links - just that whoever is responsible, they need to be brought to justice - and that kind of thing will attract surely a
38 Baroque : The real trouble is that both of you are right. There probably ought to be some time line that can be drawn. Holding ALL folk responsible for all the
39 Post contains images Quokka : I am sorry that I am unable to agree with the assertion that the girl is equally guilty. This is not out of any old-fashioned sense of chivalry but ou
40 Post contains links and images Baroque : One of the few things to laugh at in this sorry saga and for your post - One was like bumping the pier with the Admiral's barge and the other similar
41 CXB77L : I'm not saying that her offences shouldn't be judged separately to the other cadets' offences, but the truth is, regardless of the severity, all of t
42 Baroque : First suggestion probably not, although even that needs suspended judgment until you really know the circumstances - innocent until and all that??? S
43 Post contains links cpd : http://www.news.com.au/national/cade...utlet/story-e6frfkvr-1226040399686 Someone needs to get that guy a PR person or a speech writer.
44 CXB77L : There has already been a confession regarding her fraternisation. Her other offences as reported are being dealt with ... except all hell broke loose
45 Baroque : Might be a bit early to draw a firm conclusion based on that distinction too. Presuming you mean James and not Smith, you are being far to kind there
46 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : And now another headache for the ADF. http://www.smh.com.au/national/adf-a...ators-son-hurt-20110418-1dkfd.html Tax payers of Australia, brace yoursel
47 Post contains links Baroque : Did you watch Quentin Dempster on 7.30 last Friday. The whole issue of duty of care - this time for overseas students in Universities - seems likely
48 Post contains links cpd : http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...andal/story-fn7x8me2-1226046811982 The involved pair have been arrested and charged as described in the news ar
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Video: What Would You Do To This Guy? posted Mon Jun 26 2006 00:11:28 by JetsGo
What Would You Do If You Found A Very Bare Rear? posted Sun May 14 2006 08:14:11 by IAH777
What Would You Do If You Found A Very Bare Rear? posted Sun May 14 2006 08:14:11 by IAH777