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How's That GM Stock Working For You?  
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

After spending billions to bail out the auto giant, the stock is slowly sliding downward while the market on the whole is still moving up.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=G...ues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%...Interactive#symbol=%5EDJI;range=6m

Considering that it is estimated that we (the government) would have to get somewhere on the order of $53 dollars a share in order to get the rest of our money back, looks like we might be holding that paper for a good long whle. Nice job Mr. President!!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...287.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...la-na-bush-20110413,0,136924.story


I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

And as I posted earlier in the week, while AIG and a few others may have put some kitty back, there is still lots of money we're propping up for the goon squad on Wall Street:

This whole setup — in which millionaires and billionaires gambled on mountains of dangerous securities, with taxpayers providing the stake and assuming almost all of the risk — is the reason that it's insanely premature for Wall Street to claim that the bailouts have actually made money for the government. We simply can't make that determination until the final bill comes in on all the dicey securities we financed during the bailout feeding frenzy.

In the case of Waterfall TALF Opportunity, here's what we know: The company was founded in June 2009 with $14.87 million of investment capital, money that likely came from Christy Mack and Susan Karches. The two Wall Street wives then used the $220 million they got from the Fed to buy up a bunch of securities, including a large pool of commercial mortgages managed by Credit Suisse, a company John Mack once headed. Those securities were valued at $253.6 million, though the Fed refuses to explain how it arrived at that estimate. And here's the kicker: Of the $220 million the two wives got from the Fed, roughly $150 million had not been paid back as of last fall — meaning that you and I are still on the hook for most of whatever the Wall Street spouses bought on their government-funded shopping spree.


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-in-on-the-bailout-20110411?page=3

Still would love to know why you or I were not entitled to "no-recourse loans" from the Fed. Just don't get it. WTF is a loan you don't have to pay back if you don't feel like it?? Sounds like a gift to me.

[Edited 2011-04-16 15:36:19]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
After spending billions to bail out the auto giant, the stock is slowly sliding downward while the market on the whole is still moving up.

I guess they have not figured how to pay for employees and all of the retirees yet. The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...

You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
The news of a Volt burning a house down friday did not help the stock either...

You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.

But if the infrastructure does no hold for these electric vehichles that will still make people think even more before buying. Not good for a already overpriced product.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
You cannot blame the car, blame the defective wiring in the house. When you plug something into your outlets, it behooves you to know the wirings rating, and condition.

Which is something I noted in previous threads, the additional costs of upgrading your home wiring to deal with an $2,000.00 charger that they seem to forget to mention.

Okie


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 5):
But if the infrastructure does no hold for these electric vehichles that will still make people think even more before buying. Not good for a already overpriced product.

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload. I would think they covered themselves liability wise. It is true, it does not help a new product like you say. I wonder about the other cars, or was GM just unlucky enough to be the first company to run into defective wiring.

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
Which is something I noted in previous threads, the additional costs of upgrading your home wiring to deal with an $2,000.00 charger that they seem to forget to mention.

That is a large expensive item to forget, and a large expense to upgrade the wiring. Not a good selling point.

[Edited 2011-04-17 05:45:35 by SA7700]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
. 700 Billion for Wall Street,

Wasn't for that bail out either. Unfortunately the people to hold accountable for that are no longer in power.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 9):
Unfortunately the people to hold accountable for that are no longer in power.

Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload.

That is entirely the responsibility of the electrician installing the device.
This fire happened in the garage of an electric car diy'er. I hadn't heard the followup about the wiring but it's not surprising. They may have even been charging both cars at once.


User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):


I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

No it did not. Neither bail out is excusable. I'm starting to feel like an extremist in my old age, but it's about damned time that failure actually means something. Run a bank into the ground selling crap mortgages? FAIL! Sell crappy cars no one wants for decades on end, while paying exorbitant rates for do-nothing employees? FAIL!
No one wants to suffer for even a minute in this country of ours, regardless of the long term consequences (as though spending a month or two looking for a new job is truly suffering anyway...), so what do we get? Exactly what we deserve. Car companies building ever-worse products in the face of increasingly better and cheaper competition. Banks and investment firms ready to ready to wipe you out with their greed/incompetence (take your pick), with no accountablity whatsoever...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):

I wonder if GM had a warning sticker to cover the possibity of overload.

Doubt it.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):

Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.

That's the thing though. The feds, despite what we like to think, are largely apolitical. Greenspan was around for how many administrations? This is why I don't see Obama bailing the car companies out and pushing through the stim package as any worse than Bush's TARP program. A lot of that stuff really was pushed through at the fed level rather than the administration level. Good luck getting Fox or MSNBC to point that out though...


User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Nice job Mr. President!!

Well it wasn't exactly like GM was doing beautifully until November 2008 and then suddenly "wham" things went down the toilet the day after the election. In my opinion it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation".



A330 man.
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Wrong. Ben Bernanke still has a job, as do most of the Fed bank directors. But we might as well call them "the Untouchables", since they aint going anywhere.

I was speaking of persons directly accountable to the people such as President Bush. We don't get a vote on the fed chair or its directors.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 13):

I was speaking of persons directly accountable to the people such as President Bush. We don't get a vote on the fed chair or its directors.

Like wn700 said, that's the whole thing. The Fed deploys public money to its heart's content, messing around with the private banking market whenever their buddies ask for help. Pretty effed up if you ask me.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

I don't own stock, period.

I own bonds. I own foreign currencies. I own cash.

I do not and will not own stock. It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I do not and will not own stock. It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

You only lose your shirt if you sell after the crash. A diversified buy-and-hold approach is safe and reliable over the long-run while offering far greater returns than you will get from bonds or cash. Most cash options right now won't even keep up with inflation.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 16):

You only lose your shirt if you sell after the crash.

Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up. Been there, done that, almost wound up homeless.

I will earn my money, but it is not my goal to get rich. It is my goal to not be poor.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up. Been there, done that, almost wound up homeless.

Am I correct in saying you didn't diversify then? If completely writing-off any one asset you own would almost leave you homeless, then something is wrong with your portfolio.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
I will earn my money, but it is not my goal to get rich. It is my goal to not be poor.

I'm certainly not here to criticize your investment strategy because you probably have very different goals than other people on this board (such as myself). For example, you probably will not have any children and won't need to fund their college tuition. Given today's tuition costs and the average rate of tuition hikes, I expect to need approximately $750k to put three kids through a 4-year undergrad program at a typical public university when the time comes. That certainly won't leave me rich. I'm clearly going to need a bigger lever arm than I get with bonds.

My point is only that investing in stocks is not a reckless or financially irresponsible avenue.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Still would love to know why you or I were not entitled to "no-recourse loans" from the Fed. Just don't get it. WTF is a loan you don't have to pay back if you don't feel like it?? Sounds like a gift to me

If the payback is not in a timely manner then there is a need to "motivate" the debtors with increasingly unpleasant tax consequences.

Start with not allowing a deduction on the interest charged on any unpaid loan. Then make it more unpleasant each 6 to 12 months.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 11):
Neither bail out is excusable.

Maybe not, but a true depression would have been far more inexcusable.

Personally I support the auto bailout far more than the Wall Street bailout. At least with the auto investments we have an opportunity to get our money back from BOTH direct and indirect taxes, as well as an eventual selling of the shares.

I'm also a supporter of holding onto those shares for a while. Selling early doesn't repay the Treasury as much. And possibly allow taxpayers to purchase 50 to 100 shares each with their tax refund. That would be an interesting approach, especially is we can avoid another dip in the economy.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 11):
FAIL!

While I would not have been concerned if there had been some additional pain in Wall Street (at the upper end of the pay scales) I'm personally happy that GM and Chrysler are still going. I have an '02 De Ville and when it dies I'll buy another GM car - that's how good the Caddy has been for me, and how comfortable.

And the "foreign cars" are always that great. Toyota has been in the top of the list for recalls and a Corolla has been the only car in my family history that needed to have an engine replaced. I'll buy a Mazda or Nissan or Hyundai well before buying a Toyota again.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

Wait until after the crash and then buy some shares. Look for companies that people buy from every day (groceries and gas) and look for companies that have strong insights into their markets and invest in R&D - like Apple. Might also be a good idea to check on the company's cash position before buying.  


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...la-na-bush-20110413,0,136924.story

I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Seems at worst a very fair question. So what is the answer - that is how does repayment of the GM assistance funds compare with that from the banks. Or is this it!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
And as I posted earlier in the week, while AIG and a few others may have put some kitty back, there is still lots of money we're propping up for the goon squad on Wall Street:

Any ideas of the proportion still outstanding. I will bet someone has made money out of rescuing mortgages.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Not if you owned stock in a company that went belly-up.

Beat me to it. Some very big names have folded. After producing Merlin and Griffin engines like crazy during WWII and having a large military engine business after it, who would have thought RR would go under with some piffling little fans on the RB211s. But go under they did. Maybe GM will come roaring back as the new RR has done is another thought.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6661 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Wall Street just plays with money to make money, they don't build or sell anything.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is not my goal to get rich; it is my goal to avoid losing my shirt on another crash.

Wait until after the crash and then buy some shares. Look for companies that people buy from every day (groceries and gas) and look for companies that have strong insights into their markets and invest in R&D - like Apple. Might also be a good idea to check on the company's cash position before buying.

Three words: Exchange Traded Funds.

There are as many different ETFs as there are Apps for Apple and Android. And honestly, it makes it easier for the average investor. Learning some basic finance/statistics concepts is easier than learning to read the accounting speak in financial statements. Plus it limits your risk to fraud on the scale of Enron.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
I guess we will have to see how it all plays out. 700 Billion for Wall Street, Non-union. 50 billion for GM was it? Union. Is that the difference?

Wall Street just plays with money to make money, they don't build or sell anything.

GM didn't really build anything people want. That's actually worse than not building anything. But that's for another thread.

In any case, nobody should have gotten a single bail out penny.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Given today's tuition costs and the average rate of tuition hikes, I expect to need approximately $750k to put three kids through a 4-year undergrad program at a typical public university when the time comes.

When you look at the insanity of needing three quarters of a million dollars to pay for your kids education it gets obvious that we need to re-look at public colleges and universities.

Why not shift funds from Pell Grants to increased funding of public colleges & universities. Encourage High Schools to provide AP courses that earn college credits.

We need to return to the standard where a state resident could graduate from a state school with a solid education and not face a lifetime of debt. It is in our national interest for us to educate as many as possible at the level they are best suited for.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
Maybe GM will come roaring back as the new RR has done is another thought.

GM is coming back, just like Ford has.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
GM is coming back, just like Ford has


The production rate has been 50 units per day or roughly 3 per hour with a 2 shift operation for the Volt.
GM claims it will double production sometime in 2011. That of course was before troubles in Japan with the power which has all production of transmissions shut down.
I find it hard to believe that 12,500 units a year is going to save GM even with a tax rebate at taxpayers expense.
When the GM plant was operating in OKC they always mentioned that they produced at 70 units per hour, that means they could have produced a years worth of Volts in about 10 days.
I sure would not try to discourage technological advancements but the production numbers sure are not going to add to the bottom line at GM anytime soon.

Okie


25 Ken777 : I'm not looking towards the Volt to bring GM back. That is simply a showroom draw IMHO. Painful as it is I believe GM is moving forward. I'll have no
26 okie : OKC was one of the most efficient plants they had BUT they had a buyer for the building and property. GM was not going to shut down another plant and
27 WarRI1 : I hope this is so. Why Americans would want to see more Americans jobs go down the tubes is beyond me. I do not give a damn, whether they are union,
28 CargoLex : Two things: 1. The Volt is a nice car, but isn't "the" car that is going to bring GM back to it's glory days. It's a niche model and in its first gene
29 PPVRA : Which is a particularly acute type of non-sense. It's not like there would be no more auto manufacturing in the US if GM/Ford went down, and I don't
30 Post contains images Dreadnought : Then at the very least buy gold or raw diamonds or something. The value of the Dollar is going in the tank. What if this happens? By the way, hyperin
31 Post contains images DocLightning : Lucent (that cost me a good portion of my college money). Enron. And a few others... Foreign currencies.
32 Post contains links dxing : Not according to the stock price. Nor with problems like these. http://www.wfsb.com/news/27541598/detail.html http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...
33 wn700driver : I question whether that was even in the offing here, of course. But, supposing it was. . . If it resulted in a fundemental restructuring of who we ec
34 Baroque : And just the possibility of a downgrade would have lost you 2% yesterday if you had been buying the DJ Index.
35 Aesma : My point is pretty much what you said. Bailing out a company that build things (and has lots of employees) feels far better than bailing out banks an
36 CargoLex : ...Nevertheless, that's what happened. Apparently when conservatives say we should listen to the generals, they only mean we should listen to them wh
37 Post contains links Dreadnought : Jeezus, we keep hearing this lame excuse... 1) Yes, there were plenty of complaints about the deficit through 2005, at which point things started get
38 CargoLex : I guess because your numbers are not honest. Yes, the deficit was lower in those years - 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007. But that is mainly because the cost o
39 Dreadnought : Go to GPO and look it up yourself. Those are net actuals, not projections. War costs are included.
40 JBirdAV8r : A diverse portfolio is a "safe" portfolio. Sounds like he needs an investment manager to set up a strategy that best suits his needs. Unless, of cour
41 WarRI1 : I am afraid your anti-union bias maybe showing. What say you about the 700 billion for Wall Street? Fine and dandy with that handout?
42 WarRI1 : Pardon, if I do not agree, about products. I do think that Wall Street produces a Product, they did so well. They only cost us 700 billion so far. we
43 WarRI1 : Hardly, do you need a primer on greed?
44 WarRI1 : My apology. I agree with your statement 100% Wall Street was spanked, with 700 billion of our dollars. We got bent over, and it was not for a spankin
45 WarRI1 : Every once in awhile, someone gets it right, you are right on the money. I do not think this is rocket science, nor written in Greek. There is an ant
46 Flighty : I don't get this. TARP cost about 29 billion dollars. It's very possible it will end up a profit. GM was a giveaway to unions of about 50 billion dol
47 WarRI1 : I do not recall it being called a union bailout. I recall it was a GM bailout. A corporation. What the heck, GE is creative, why could GM, not do the
48 Flighty : I thought we were talking about who got the taxpayer's money. Our government acts to stabilize banks. Fortunately, that isn't costly and the financia
49 WarRI1 : We could discuss this until the end of eternity, the greed of the banks, and Wall Street caused the collapse. GM was guilty of poor business decision
50 Post contains images wn700driver : They absolutely will not. That would require building competitive products, lowering costs, and intelligent marketing strategies. GM is capable of no
51 WarRI1 : Do you have a crystal ball also? The above, I could not agree more, we are being screwed over, manipulated. The market cannot self regulate now, it i
52 474218 : What good are "bonds" with a person like Obama in charge. He told the holders of Chrysler bonds to pound sand, you get nothing and the union gets 70%
53 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://open.salon.com/blog/closureis..._court_screws_chrysler_bondholders I think the US Supreme Court agreed with Obama according to this article. If
54 Ken777 : Stocks are going to go up and down - which is why I like the idea of holding onto GM shares for a few more years if necessary. All car companies have
55 wn700driver : Indeed. Setting aside the recall issues, I'll say I was somewhat disappointed with the Corrolla went I started shopping for a new car. I felt that th
56 Post contains links dxing : Unfortunately that is not in the offing. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110419/bs_afp/useconomyautogm After the Wall Street Journal reported a governm
57 wn700driver : DX, I agree that as financial decision, the administration is making a "terrible" decision. But, two things. . . A. This is GM. An $11 billion write d
58 Ken777 : How long will it take for GM to pay out $11 Billion in taxes at various levels. Start with FICA and unemployment taxes, add in property taxes and the
59 Post contains links dxing : Makes no difference as they would have had to pay those taxes regardless of the bailout money even if they had gone through ordinary channels instead
60 Post contains images Ken777 : IIRC Chrysler issued them stock warrants to support the guarantee - I'll have to check out Iacocca's 1st book again, but I remember him pissed that t
61 dxing : Correct. GM was not required to do the same as they recieved a bailout, two in fact, not loan gauranttees. The government did not actually loan any m
62 Ken777 : Unfortunately the financial sector was in no position, after all of th games they played, to go the route used originally with Chrysler. And the gove
63 dxing : Not all banks and private investors were in financial straights. In 1980 Chrysler did not get all its money from one source but from a consortium of
64 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.projo.com/opinion/columni..._04-22-11_37NL4T1_v10.1f41ec5.html The link above, shows who got the preferential treatment, but let us blame i
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