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If You Don't Watch Uefa Football You Aren't A Fan?  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1073 times:

So yesterday in another forum people naturally asked me if I saw Messi's goals against Real Madrid.

I said, ''no I did not''.

Of course, more than a few said things like ''do you have a TV?'', ''are you in a cave?''... but the one that annoyed me the most was ''are you really a football fan?''.

My response was ''I have no interest whatsoever in EUROPEAN league, and yes, I have basically never seen Messi or any other player in the past (Batistuta, Milito, Zanetti, etc,etc, etc) play outside of local teams or mainly the national squad. So basically I was told I wasn't a true fan by some because if I ''loved the game'' I would want to watch the best it has to offer (in other words, UEFA Champions).

They seem to not understand that ''better'' is in the eye of the beholder. It may be better to eat food made by the world's best chefs, but if you are just watching it on TV, is it really better than what you can put in your mouth?? That would be my analogy.

I have no vested interest in European or any other international football. I don't care if half the team is Argentine, just because of their nationality won't make me follow what are foreign leagues and tournaments where as a fan I have no passion either way. Besides the fact that it is arguable that European club football is THAT good a product (no doubt their teams have the most talent, but is it really exciting to watch the major ligas of Europe always be a two or three way race and the other 17 teams at best hope to spoil the party once or twice in the calendar??), and the low scoring is another thing. So add those things to the fact I follow no team... what am I going to sit and watch that for?

Are other football fans less of a fan if they don't watch South American tourneys? I doubt many here ever have. So it would be nice if people cut the arrogance level down a bit. Am I wrong here? Opinions welcome.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1031 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So yesterday in another forum people naturally asked me if I saw Messi's goals against Real Madrid.

If you're not a fan of either I wouldn't have stood the whole dive, playacting and gamesmanship fest that was yesterday's match.

The goals were good, and about the only thing that was worth watching, the other was watching mourinho being demolished with his own antics.

Priceless.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4963 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1019 times:

As football freak myself, I don't understand how a game like this (or rather, this particular series of clasicos) doesn't interest you. It's like the World Cup or the Ch. League final ... I just can't wait to watch, no matter who is playing. If my team/country is there, better, but if not I'll still enjoy these kind of games (even if yesterday, aside from Messi's second goal, the game was extremely boring, and got a bit better only after Pepe's red card).


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1011 times:

I understand Ezeiza, I really do. So maybe I am not a ''huge'' fan then? I guess that's why I want to hear what others think.

I still will stand by my opinion, but it's my opinion and not by any means how things should be perceived of course. I just can't get excited for a game that has no influence on my team or anything like that. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I do ''turn on'' a foreign match, but I'll be studying or doing other work, I would never sit there and just watch motionless, as I do when I watch the Primera A or the Libertadores, where the matches affect the seeding of your team, or your team itself is playing.

To me there is no substitute in any sporting event to be part of it. When Argentina got bounced from the 1st round in 2002, I barely watched any other game. The time difference of course was a big factor, but I guess it is just the way one is raised.

I love basketball and I am more willing to watch NBA, even if it's not my league, because I'm more used to seeing it as a spectator show and not being part of the action, since the Basketball World Championships are not as prominent yet. But even in the NBA I only watch the last stages and the final, I only have watched two games in this early rounds when I could have watched more.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3244 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1002 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
They seem to not understand that ''better'' is in the eye of the beholder.

Derico,

I understand where you are coming from, and am not going to jump down your throat for not wanting to watch European football (you should do what you want!), but I don't agree with this comment. The fact is, the best players in the world play in Europe. By definition, it is "better" football in terms of quality. What is entirely up for debate is if it is more entertaining, and that is a fair statement. But if you are wanting to watch the best football in the world, it absolutely comes from Europe.

As far as people questioning you, I can honestly say I don't understand how a fan of the sport cannot have at least some interest in European football, for the above reason alone. I do understand that you have more of an attachment to more "local" or regional football, and I think that's fine (and awesome! there is some great football played in Argentina/South America). I think the approach most people take is related in some way to the support for their own country. It tends to reflect well on the state of football in a country if their players are doing well internationally. For players like Messi, the fact that the best player in the world is Argentine is, as I'm sure we've both experienced, a major point of pride for the Argentinians. I know that I at least haphazardly follow teams like Fulham and Everton in the EPL to see how two of our American nationals are doing (Dempsey and Howard, respectively), even though they aren't my main team in the EPL.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 994 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
but is it really exciting to watch the major ligas of Europe always be a two or three way race and the other 17 teams at best hope to spoil the party once or twice in the calendar??

Last 5 Bundesliga champions:

2011: Borussia Dortmund or Bayer Leverkusen
2010: Bayern
2009: VfL Wolfsburg
2008: Bayern
2007: VfB Stuttgart

Both Stuttgart and Wolfsburg are currently still in danger of relegation this season.

Let me put it like this: You can be a fan of your local club and not care about European football. But if you love the game itself, if you're a fan of football, then the Champions League is basically a must. European football dominates anyway (1-2-3 finishes in the last 2 world cups), and on the club level the best South American players are playing in Europe as well.


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 977 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
They seem to not understand that ''better'' is in the eye of the beholder.

I definitely feel like the Europeans are elitists when it comes to football. Certainly, they deserve to be...much like the Americans deserve to be when it comes to Basketball. However, in both regards, it can get slightly annoying at times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 2):
I don't understand how a game like this (or rather, this particular series of clasicos) doesn't interest you

I am most certainly a football fan and I had very little interest to see the game yesterday. I checked the score after, absolutely, but certainly did not go out of my way to see the game while it happened.

Quoting racko (Reply 5):
Last 5 Bundesliga champions:

It could be my bias of loving Germany over Spain, Italy and France, but I think the Bundesliga is the most exciting league in European football.

[Edited 2011-04-28 11:29:58]

User currently offlineEZYAirbus From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2458 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 958 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
It could be my bias of loving Germany over Spain, Italy and France, but I think the Bundesliga is the most exciting league in European football.

I think the Brits and most of Europe would disagree with you there!



http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 949 times:

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 7):

I think the Brits and most of Europe would disagree with you there!

Fair enough. As far as Brits go, I could never get in to the Premiership very much. Isn't something like a whopping 4 teams have won the championship since 1993, and one of those teams (Blackburn) only won it once. So that means, minus that one season, there were 3 different champions over 16 seasons? Yawn...


User currently offlineEZYAirbus From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2458 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 948 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 8):
Fair enough. As far as Brits go, I could never get in to the Premiership very much. Isn't something like a whopping 4 teams have won the championship since 1993, and one of those teams (Blackburn) only won it once. So that means, minus that one season, there were 3 different champions over 16 seasons? Yawn...

Yes it seems to be the same old teams winning it, but this year has been very close and 2 teams have broken the 'top 4' up in the last 2 seasons, Tottenham and Man City are fast improving teams, although Man City seem to be trying to buy success whereas Tottenham have done it by having who I think is the best British manager the game has seen in a very long time! I think with City spending millions every transfer window we will soon see them win the premier league, even at the bottom its wide open, anyone of 6 teams can go down and only 5 games left!



http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 942 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 2):
As football freak myself, I don't understand how a game like this (or rather, this particular series of clasicos) doesn't interest you.

Right.

I think there are two main categories of team sport freaks:

- a (IMO) minority who likes the sport for the sport, be it for tactics, individual skills, sportmanship, entertainment or whatever, irrespective of the colour of the shirts, at most with a touch of understandable sentimentalism
- a (IMO) majority who vibrate to the tune of old parochialism (my team, my village, my region, etc...) and are only awake when the local fiber is excited

Being clearly in the first category I will try not to miss an interesting game...and I refrain to visit any Greek stadium.   


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 938 times:

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 9):
but this year has been very close and 2 teams have broken the 'top 4' up in the last 2 seasons, Tottenham and Man City are fast improving teams

I agree this year has been great. I hope it is a sign of the future of the Premiership - competitiveness from the field.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 927 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 4):
For players like Messi, the fact that the best player in the world is Argentine is, as I'm sure we've both experienced, a major point of pride for the Argentinians

That would normally be so of course, but because he hasn't delivered the goods, and for the select group of countries in the world that have WC titles nothing short of another World Cup isn't good enough, Messi generates an inordinate amount of debate in Argetina. Is he the most talented scorer in the world? Sure. Is he the best player? Well... again, foreigners maybe shocked as to the real opinions in the country. It is very divided and it was outright disgust with him during the last qualifiers. People literally hating on him, and he was hurt by that.

And understand that when the media says ''he is the best player'', is just language simplification. When you ask many of those same reporters in Argentina if he is the best player, they will be very critical of his World Cup performance (yes, he was unlucky with a few goal posts, yes Argentina went to the world cup without an actual coaching staff, but still), as with everyhing ultimately it's what you do for us lately that charms or spells trouble.

As I said in my OP, objectively the best players are in Europe no doubt. But again, what does it matter if I don't feel to be part of it??? I see many responses here are not that different from what I read yesterday.... people where puzzled at my position.

That's why I brought it here, it is very interesting topic to discuss.

Quoting racko (Reply 5):
European football dominates anyway (1-2-3 finishes in the last 2 world cups),


Europe does well playing in Europe, but history shows they do terribly playing in South America. So it's more an issue of confort zone of playing in familiar soil than European football (in it's grass roots) is better, because it is not.  

Europe has never won a world cup outside it's continent UNTIL this time. Before that Brazil won in Asia and Europe, Argentina in North America, in the 60 years before that, when the WC was exclusively switched between South America and Europe, European teams managed nothing outside their continent. Argentina and Brazil completely and absolutely dominate the U20 World Cup. So those two things don't indicate European dominance in the least, on the contrary is shows it's just home field at play.

If most world cups were in South America, it would be one sided very likely. There's only 10 countries in SA and only one maybe two that can realistically organized a World Cup, so of course Europe with 50 countries will have many more hostings.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 908 times:

Really, location? Most Argentinian and Brazilian players live in Europe anyway, so if anything playing in Europe means a level playing field. Of Argentina's 2010 squad, 17 of 23 players lived in Europe - of the 13 players who played in their 0-4 defeat vs. Germany, 12 played in Europe.

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
Argentina and Brazil completely and absolutely dominate the U20 World Cup. So those two things don't indicate European dominance in the least, on the contrary is shows it's just home field at play.

Seriously? Who cares about the U20 World Cup? Just look at the line up European teams are fielding. Just as an example, the last cup took place in the middle of the club season and releasing players isn't mandatory for the clubs, so the European teams show up with the players who don't play a particularly big role in their club.

The relevant youth tournaments for European teams are the European cups.

European football dominates right now. Both Argentina and Brazil went out as soon as they met an European opponent in the knock-out stages in both the 2006 and the 2010 world cup. This might change in the future, but for now, neither Argentina nor Brazil are in the same league as the top European teams.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 894 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
I definitely feel like the Europeans are elitists when it comes to football. Certainly, they deserve to be...much like the Americans deserve to be when it comes to Basketball. However, in both regards, it can get slightly annoying at times

Just a little?   

Quoting racko (Reply 13):
Really, location? Most Argentinian and Brazilian players live in Europe anyway, so if anything playing in Europe means a level playing field. Of Argentina's 2010 squad, 17 of 23 players lived in Europe - of the 13 players who played in their 0-4 defeat vs. Germany, 12 played in Europe.

If you really think having the ability to have your Mannschaft play together for extended periods is not important, you really need to resonsider your knowledge of sport. Team play TAKES TIME, every since the late 1990s Brazil and Argentina at best get 4-5 days to get their team together for WC qualifiers, or at most 15 before the world cup. European countries have not such restrictions as their seasons are built on Northern Hemisphere schedules.

You really think you will have any kind of chemistry on a team assembled a week or two before the tournament? Please. European players play in their home leagues and have a much better idea of the style of play because they see it consistently. South American style football is not the same and it takes time to get it back.

Dunga tried to make Brazil play like a European team and lost to a European team.

Quoting racko (Reply 13):
Seriously? Who cares about the U20 World Cup? Just look at the line up European teams are fielding. Just as an example, the last cup took place in the middle of the club season and releasing players isn't mandatory for the clubs, so the European teams show up with the players who don't play a particularly big role in their club.

If you don't think it has any merit it's not our problem isn't it?

Quoting racko (Reply 13):
European football dominates right now. Both Argentina and Brazil went out as soon as they met an European opponent in the knock-out stages in both the 2006 and the 2010 world cup. This might change in the future, but for now, neither Argentina nor Brazil are in the same league as the top European teams.

For the first time in 100 years or so? Brazil got some bad calls playing Holland, and in 2006, Germany didn't exactly beat Argentina in Berlin of all places based on football. Maybe a cheat sheet which should have been declared illegal equipment!
But that's old news. The thing is in that game Argentina thoroughly dominated Germany in posession and chances, why are you trying to paint the picture that European teams walked over the South American ones? Spain barely beat Paraguay. There is no ''dominance'' just favorable results in games that were tight for the most part.

So basically, according to you, U20 are worthless, European teams walked over South American ones on the football field in the last 2 world cups (no evidence except for one game), and uhm, well, I won't ask about South American clubs. So why don't you send us back our players and your clubs play without them?? Woudn't your UEFA actually get BETTER??

I could play devil's advocate and just as many of you said it was strange I wouldn't not watch Champions League, anyone here watch the Libertadores semis or final??? If you like good football, there are usually some really good games in the final two rounds, with very interesting players and solid teams.

Yet I doubt anyone does...



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinelapa_saab340 From Spain, joined Aug 2001, 390 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 850 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 4):
For players like Messi, the fact that the best player in the world is Argentine is, as I'm sure we've both experienced, a major point of pride for the Argentinians.

Don't really wish to derail the thread, but you'd be amazed to learn that this is not true. As Derico pointed out, many Argentines (in their typical infinite wisdom) dislike Messi. Their logic (or shall we say, illogic) thinking is that Messi is motivated by money, hence his good performance as a player in FC Barcelona and rather "poor" performance in the Argentine national squad. The fact that the national squad hasn't had a real manager in years, and that he's had to play without any of the support he enjoys in Barca, escapes them.

In fact many Argentine fans regard their players from the European leagues as being mercenaries, allegedly only interested in playing for money and not having any passion for the national jersey. Many even call from Messi's removal from the national team. Such mediocre mentality speaks volume about the state of Argentine football and even the state of the country in general.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 846 times:

Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 15):
Their logic (or shall we say, illogic) thinking is that Messi is motivated by money, hence his good performance as a player in FC Barcelona and rather "poor" performance in the Argentine national squad. The

This is taking it too far for sure, to question someone's motivations specially a guy that seems to be (so far) one of the cleanest superstars in world sport (no drugs, no wild sex, humble, I mean nothing bad to say). BUT...

Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 15):
that he's had to play without any of the support he enjoys in Barca, escapes them.

In terms of the managing yes. In terms of players, Messi has had much better players around than say, Maradon did. Which brings the next point.

People at times confuse the label ''best player in the world'' with the next logical step the world makes which is ''is he the next Maradona''. Ok, he is 23. He deserves a break, however... He (Messi) when coming up to the Maradona comparison is facing a steep climb: many believe that Maradona ON HIS OWN took Argentina to a World Title, to another final four years later, and took Napoli from nothing to the top. So Maradona showed repeatedly the ability to almost singlehandedly bring championships where he played. And it's a true to an extent: Maradona played with ''muertos'' as we would say: Valdano, Burruchaga, Brown... nobodies.

Messi is not as alone: Milito, Tevez, Higuain. So when put up against that the question is can Messi on his own deliver like Maradona could?

Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 15):
Many even call from Messi's removal from the national team. Such mediocre mentality speaks volume about the state of Argentine football and even the state of the country in general.

Now here I disagree. I think it is a somewhat natural reaction of heated and frustrated fans to call silly names like mercenaries, but it has nothing to do with any type of mentality. Ask any Brazilian here, people in Brazil say the exact same thing about their players, that they don't care about Brazil and only about the money.

There is a reason Brazil and Argentina struggle in WC qualifyers: they can't practice together. That is hurting Brazil and Argentina terribly and eventually something will have to be done to end the era of South American players going to Europe. I think something like a ''superleague'' of South America, privatization of clubs, consolidation of clubs so there aren't 10 clubs every square kilometer will come in the next 20 years.

Racko in a way confirmed this, not that it had to be, but he said European nations do terribly in U20 because they can't release their players. Well that's exactly the problem Brazil and Argentina (and Uruguay) have, we get our players with 4 days for a set of two qualifying games, the players are tired from playing, tired from travelling and on top of that can't practice together hardly ever.

That is why South American national teams are struggling. However, South American football is far better than European football in talent. To believe otherwise based on ''world cup results'' is fool's gold.

It's like Argentina believing we had better basketball than the United States for beating them a few times in a row from 2002 to 2006 and winning Gold in 04 at the Olympics (the ''world cup'' of Basketball). Just because we beat the USA didn't mean they still don't have better talent.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 817 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
However, South American football is far better than European football in talent.

I disagree. If you take Spain alone you probably have more top players under 25 than the whole of South America. De Gea, Albiol, Pique, Ramos, Busquets, Martinez, Silva, Navas, Mata...all under 25, all already world class. Add Germany with Neuer, Boateng, Badstuber, Hummels, Khedira, Özil, Kroos, Götze, the Benders, Schürrle, Müller...heck even Podolski and Gomez are both only 25.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 792 times:

I for one have grown extremely bored and tired of the game at the highest levels. Overpaid prima donnas who have little or no consideration for the fans who pay (or at least create the market) for their overinflated salaries and egos.

Don't get me wrong I used to love my football and was even lucky enough to see my modestly sized club reach a UEFA cup final in the 1980s when I was a season ticket holder. That was in the day when you got players who would stay at a club for many years and in some cases spend their entire careers with one club.

But now there are players who cheat, dishonour contracts and worst of all appear more content to have their heads filled with crap from those leeches in the game, the agents, rather than listening to their coach who is trying to help them develop as players.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 768 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 17):
I disagree. If you take Spain alone you probably have more top players under 25 than the whole of South America. De Gea, Albiol, Pique, Ramos, Busquets, Martinez, Silva, Navas, Mata...all under 25, all already world class. Add Germany with Neuer, Boateng, Badstuber, Hummels, Khedira, Özil, Kroos, Götze, the Benders, Schürrle, Müller...heck even Podolski and Gomez are both only 25.

I figured you would mention Spain, and yes they have a great generation, it seems most big football countries have such generations every now and then. May I humbly suggest that your opinion is a bit tinted by media saturation of coverage of the young players in European sport tv for obvious reasons. Just because European media does not cover South America it doesn't mean there isn't something WORTH covering  

In Argentina, and most of South America, such players are unheard of. Maybe that's wrong, but of those people may only have heard of Pique, Ramos, Busquets, Özil, Müller, Kroos and Podolski. I don't think Gomez is up there as a household name. European sport media don't have time or interest to cover young South American players, which is why when they break it in Europe (Pato, Neymar, Messi, Milito, etc), Europeans seem to be taken by storm by their talents. If they had followed South American youth game more closely, they would not have been surprised.

I think Spain and Germany have solid youth right now, but then look at France, their stars Henry, Rivery are up there and Zidane is long gone. Italy hasn't produced anything in a while. England is still waiting for a clear succesor to Beckmam, Rooney, and Owen. And lets not forget it wasn't long ago everyone thought Germany football was gone back in the late 1990s. Things can change quickly of course, but three of the big five countries in Europe are not in their best moment.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
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