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PHX Police Officer Investigated For Shoving Teen  
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...fficer-youtube-shove-brk04-ON.html

Fair use excerpt:

Quote:
The video shows a girl in a physical altercation with a woman, whom Crump identified as the girl's mother, in a parking lot. The girl strikes the woman in the face and then walks away. An officer responding to the scene approaches her from behind as she is walking, shoves her into a wall and knocks her off her feet. He handcuffs her and then walks her to a police vehicle.

The video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOvncjLzPLo


Personally, I think the little twit had it coming. She had just shown her propensity for violence, and she was drunk. Also, the fact that NOBODY, not even the camera guy or the girl, reported it says volumes (it was a city employee who saw the video on YouTube who first brought it to light).

I recommend watching the whole video. I first skipped to the 1:40 mark where she gets clobbered, and thought it was way out of line. After watching the rest of it.... not so much. Also, we don't see what she did or said to the cop as he was first approaching. My guess is some smart-ass remark.


"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2347 times:
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The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.

If he did, I probably would be calling for criminal charges. As far as I'm concerned, cops don't need to be dealing out "street justice". That just makes things worse in the long run.

When I say she had it coming, it was because she was being violent towards her mother and non-compliant with the cops. Quite often in situations like these, the perp will continue their behavior on the responding officers, especially when they're intoxicated. You'd be surprised how strong and slippery people can be when they're basically numb to pain.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Hmmmm this one will be close. He asked her to come back and she tells him to f off. Though I would have given her more commands instead of rushing her like that. If she still resisted then schools out. In a town like PHX he will probably be given the benefit of the doubt.

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7701 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2236 times:
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It was over the top, but to be honest it just looked clumsy more than anything else. Might teach her to damn well stand still when a cop tells you to.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4489 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
it just looked clumsy more than anything else

That's what I think. Looks like he made a lunge for her, and kind of reeled back when she fell.

I didn't see any excessive force. What did she expect to happen, running from the police?



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2138 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Though I would have given her more commands instead of rushing her like that.

Not necessary.   

She could have been armed. Little twit got what she deserved. She seemed totally fine after he cuffed her up and got her off the ground. Wounded prided after she watches herself on youtube.


User currently offlinejanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

The cop should have arrested the girl without shoving her. His behaviour has been excessive, IMO.

User currently offlinecrazyfoo88 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 81 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

For a change I actually agree with the outcome here. Cop was calm beforehand, asked her to come back. She turned and started to flee. What else do you expect?

End of story I think.

Only worrysome thing I think is she hit her head pretty hard, almost looked like she blacked out. Hope they took her to the hospital first before processing her.



crazyfoo88
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2071 times:

Video has been removed, but I'll make this statement:

When a police officer tells you to do something, comply immediately and chances are the situation will not escalate.

If anyone can find a link to the video, I'd like to see it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Video has been removed

Due to a TOS violation, probably because the girl is a minor (which I still think is bullcrap).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
If anyone can find a link to the video, I'd like to see it.
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region...r-investigated-for-excessive-force

There's a few clips on the left side of the page.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 5):
running from the police?

Looked like she was calmly walking away to me, not running.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 7):
The cop should have arrested the girl without shoving her. His behaviour has been excessive, IMO.

I agree, his actions were way over the top, as is shown by the way she hits her head after he pushes her down, in a VERY clumsy manner too.

Quoting crazyfoo88 (Reply 8):
She turned and started to flee.

Walked away, hardly fleeing.

Drunk people need to be handled in a different way from sober people, if police aren't trained in this during their cadet-ship/probation period, then they need to improve it, and soon.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Walked away, hardly fleeing.

Fleeing means leaving the scene. When someone leaves a scene when an officer tells them to stop, they have the right to do what it takes to detain them.



Go big or go home
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 12):
Fleeing means leaving the scene.

Hardley !

Here is the definition for the word "flee"

To run, or move away quickly from the scene.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flee

Quoting aa61hvy (Reply 12):
they have the right to do what it takes to detain them.

That is not carte blanch for the use of excessive force in order to "detain"

The cop is clearly using excessive force. The woman was drunk !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Looked like she was calmly walking away to me, not running.

She was, but that's not really that important. She was given a lawful order, and she didn't obey. After already smacking her mother around, she needed to be dealt with accordingly, which means assuming she won't hesitate to attack a police officer as well.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):

I agree, his actions were way over the top, as is shown by the way she hits her head after he pushes her down, in a VERY clumsy manner too.

The shove was clumsy, but it wasn't "over the top". Remember, the cops had literally just seen her punch her mom in the face.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):

Drunk people need to be handled in a different way from sober people

Indeed: you need to be stronger with them. Drunk people cannot be reasoned with. Once they start acting up, the only way to stop them is to physically restrain them. Usually that means putting them on the ground.

And again, the fact is she just committed assault. Drunk or not, the second you don't comply with orders after doing that, you can expect to be forcefully put on the ground.

In the end, the hit looked a lot worse than it actually was. She suffered no injuries, and none of the people present filed any sort of complaint (not even the cameraman).

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):

Here is the definition for the word "flee"

Semantics. She was trying to leave after being told to stay. The legal consequences are similar, if not the same.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
She was, but that's not really that important. She was given a lawful order, and she didn't obey. After already smacking her mother around, she needed to be dealt with accordingly, which means assuming she won't hesitate to attack a police officer as well.

She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
She was given a lawful order,

Remember, she was drunk.

We are not talking about giving a command to a "normal" sober person now are we ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
The shove was clumsy, but it wasn't "over the top". Remember, the cops had literally just seen her punch her mom in the face.

That would, IMHO, be argued very strenuously in court if hes had been knocked unconscious (because the cop pushed her "into" a wall !

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Drunk people cannot be reasoned with.

So how do you expect them to Obey commands give by police officers then ?????

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Once they start acting up, the only way to stop them is to physically restrain them. Usually that means putting them on the ground.

Absolutely, she wasn't going anywhere, he didn't need to push her into a wall to "stop" her. He could have just grabbed her and puled her arm behind her back. I mean really, did you see the size of this cop, what really was the threat ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
And again, the fact is she just committed assault. Drunk or not, the second you don't comply with orders after doing that, you can expect to be forcefully put on the ground.

But you just said this..

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Drunk people cannot be reasoned with.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2014 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
Remember, she was drunk.

Being drunk isn't an excuse for being a stupid asshole.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.

I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid. Poor response from this officer. Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

Remember, she was drunk.

We are not talking about giving a command to a "normal" sober person now are we ?

Doesn't make the order any less lawful, nor does it excuse her from disobeying it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

That would, IMHO, be argued very strenuously in court if hes had been knocked unconscious (because the cop pushed her "into" a wall !

I think you missed the part where she just committed a violent felony in front of the police. The tackle used was appropriate given what she had just done.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):

So how do you expect them to Obey commands give by police officers then ?????

I usually don't. But nonetheless, a lawful order was given, and she wasn't complying.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
He could have just grabbed her and puled her arm behind her back.

At which point she pulls out a knife with her other arm and tries to stab the officer. And before you say she didn't have a knife.... nobody knew that until after the arrest.

I mean, seriously, that's like saying a cop should always try to shoot for the arm or leg (as opposed to center mass).

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
I mean really, did you see the size of this cop, what really was the threat ?

Oh, I dunno, the fact that she was a) drunk and b) violent?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid.

His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.

I'm assuming you weren't able to watch the video yet. His level of force was not because of her words, but her actions and mental state. She had already assaulted her mom in front of the cops (and apparently a teacher before that), and she was intoxicated.

Again, he was clumsy with the shove, probably because he wasn't expecting her to turn around like that. That doesn't mean it's excessive.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
The cop should have pulled out his baton and given her some stick time.

So you advocate bashing drunks do you ?

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 17):
Being drunk isn't an excuse for being a stupid asshole.

Never said it was did I ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
She cussed him out too but still I think the officer was a little aggressive. Ultimately he will be cleared if anything happens but police are supposed to be professionals and that didn't look profressional to me. It looked heavy handed.

  

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid. Poor response from this officer. Some one tells you to FO, it does not call for that, you are supposed to be trained to handle it.

  

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
Doesn't make the order any less lawful, nor does it excuse her from disobeying it.

Im not saying it dose, al II am saying is you can give ALL the orders/commands you want, if the person is drunk your not going to get the response that you desire are you, generally speaking

If the cop had half a brain and or training then he should have known that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
At which point she pulls out a knife with her other arm and tries to stab the officer. And before you say she didn't have a knife.... nobody knew that until after the arrest.

Isn't that why we train police officers, just for these very situations. To tackle and disarm offenders. Again, who's the drunk wobbly one, who has the upper hand here, are you saying she has it over the cop, I don't think so ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Not if it causes "undue" injury it isn't .

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
That doesn't mean it's excessive.

Maverick623, come on, you saw that way she fell into the wall and hit her head.
It is perhaps lucky that she was drunk, because if a sober person had fallen like that, I'm pretty sure the outcome would not have been good.

[Edited 2011-05-05 19:24:31]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1976 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
His shove is a valid method of stopping someone.

Shoveing from the rear was not how I was trained to apprehend someone, of course that was many years ago. New age? Not professional to me.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
I'm assuming you weren't able to watch the video yet. His level of force was not because of her words, but her actions and mental state. She had already assaulted her mom in front of the cops (and apparently a teacher before that), and she was intoxicated.

I have now watched the video twice. The officer could have fractured her skull very easily, cement type wall, certainly a cement sidewalk. It was too much force applied. He could easily be facing serious charges, for serious injuries.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
Again, he was clumsy with the shove, probably because he wasn't expecting her to turn around like that. That doesn't mean it's excessive

No question, she was intoxicated, mentally distrought, something not right. One could not tell, if she responded, to him, or not, one thing is for sure, she did not even get a chance to react, that is why she looked like a rag doll after the violent shove. If I remember correctly, when ,my children were younger, and possibly still today, for some parents, we always warned about the possible effects of unwarned, or violent shoving. Dangerous, still. You would not want to kill, or cripple someone for public drunkeness, the crime does not fit the punishment.

[Edited 2011-05-05 19:42:30]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

The press here in Phoenix seems to be saying it was "excessive force" on the part of the police. The image of the police force here is very poor recently, since the Phoenix chief of police was forced into "comfortable retirement" after he was caught lying about kidnapping numbers (and calling Phoenix the kidnapping capital of the Western world or some such crap) to the federal law enforcement agencies in an attempt to increase federal funding for the city's police force.   

[Edited 2011-05-05 21:32:17]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Wow, this one is close, but did anyone else see her reach up to her shirt as she turned to the officer? From the officer's point of view, what might that look like, especially after she had just assaukted someone else?

I don't know...I'm going to side with the officer. His primamry job (after his own safety) is to control, defuse or stabilize the situation as quickly as possible, using the force necessary to do that.

He accomplished that task. Did he use too much force? It's a close call, but I think he was within the bounds.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
I agree, it did not look professional to me either. You are supposed to stop, restrain, not shove like a school kid.

If that 'school kid' had immediately complied with his order to stop, she wouldn't have been physically handled. would she? And shoving is a perfectly OK way to stop someone.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
25 Maverick623 : So we're in agreement there. Let's close that argument. Doesn't change the fact that he still has to give some sort of verbal command. I particularly
26 TheCommodore : I'm not judging him any more than your defending him, really. The video is/was there for all to see, and "judging" by most comments on this thread, t
27 janmnastami : Therefore, why didn't the cop shoot her? She could have had a gun. If a policeman isn't able to handle a young drunk girl, he's unfit to do his job.
28 Danny : Typically American excessive use of force by policeman who thinks he is also prosecutor and judge in one person. But judging from the responses above
29 Maverick623 : Go back and watch the whole video again. You can clearly see her escape from her mother's grasp, and then land a few smacks to her face. And then she
30 Danny : Lived there for a few years and traveled multiple times.
31 roadrunner165 : Sorry - - I did not read all the responses in this thread. However looking at the video, specifically the movement of the officers feet it appears he
32 EA CO AS : So Danny, tell us - precisely how often were you beaten by the police while living in the U.S. ? Wait - you were NEVER beaten by law enforcement offi
33 Danny : How do you know? Oh, you don't.
34 Post contains images YokoTsuno : You main there exists alcohol which makes you behave sensible when intoxicated. That's cool. You should convince this manufacturer to sell this here i
35 EA CO AS : Sure I do. Because if you had, you'd have mentioned it in your reply number 30 instead of limiting it to "lived there a few years and traveled multip
36 Post contains links Maverick623 : And this is based on: So, in other words you've never had to deal with a violent, drunk person. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvP0xvs5DxE http://www
37 Post contains links TheCommodore : This was a 15 year old girl, and the police office had to do this to her. This is also not the first case of police brutality from Phoenix, as was me
38 YokoTsuno : Based on arrests for shoplifting and the typical "drunk fight over a girlfriend" that I've seen here and other places in shops and discos. If you exc
39 WarRI1 : I did not call her a school kid, I said the Officer shoved like a school kid, which he did. You are wrong, I carried a weapon, a nightstick, a set of
40 Post contains links itsjustme : Love the Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on. The quoted statement is one of my favorites. Commodore, I suggest you read the following story: http
41 rottenray : It was VERY over-the-top. You don't roll into a minor altercation and simply shove someone into a wall to "investigate" the situation. We assume we k
42 stasisLAX : And their somewhat gleeful support of SB1070 - perhaps this young women "looked illegal"....
43 fr8mech : You know, I know quite a few police officers and count 2 amongst my closest friends and they would be appalled and insulted by that comment. But, the
44 canoecarrier : I give police officers quite a bit of leeway with how they deal with intoxicated people. Two police officers here were assaulted by a drunk guy a cou
45 TheCommodore : In the context that I was talking about was this fact....... This was a drunk 15 year old girl, not a sumo wrestler or Muhamod Ali, and, as you can s
46 fr8mech : Did he know she was 15? Did he know she was drunk? All he may have known was that she was attacking someone and then leaving the scene to possibly at
47 TheCommodore : Appears that you haven't read the article. I suggest you do before you comment any further. The incident was phoned in and reported to police by the
48 Maverick623 : Dude, I would love to see you try to control a drunk 15 year old. By the way, for anyone interested, there's no shortage of videos on YouTube (and a
49 fr8mech : Apologies, I read the article 3 days ago. Comments are still pertinent. Callers get things wrong. Dispatchers get things wrong. Witnesses get things
50 TheCommodore : Please stop with the "Dude" business, I find it rude, and not very conducive to carrying out a civilized discussion ! Maverick623, You can put any sp
51 Maverick623 : Fair enough. I'd wager that my perspective is a little more accurate, considering I've had to deal with a 15 year old drunk girl. And that I live in
52 fr8mech : He, and his Chief, look at it through the prism of political correctness, race relations, press relations, etc. They, like me and you and the others,
53 Maverick623 : In this case, it provides just enough, when coupled with what we know about the original call. The thing is, people need to watch the whole video, no
54 Post contains links rottenray : I saw a wrestling match, several police arrive, and a policeman who was in much better physical shape than a teenage girl absolutely slam that girl i
55 Maverick623 : You seem to think that this officer had some sort of "punishment" in mind. Remember the original call: a drunk girl assaulted a teacher. Then you pul
56 fr8mech : I would like to think that my daughter would not be drunk and beating up her Mom, but, if she was, and she failed to comply with a police officer's l
57 itsjustme : "Several" police arrive? What video did you watch? One 2-man unit arrived. One officer stayed with the victim and one officer pursued the fleeing sus
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