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Rumours: Greece To Abandon Euro   
User currently offlineYokoTsuno From Singapore, joined Feb 2011, 348 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

The Euro took a serious beating again yesterday after rumours surfaced that Greece wants to get out of the Euro and possible EU. Is this the beginning of the end of it all?

If the Europeans can't make the EU work, one can basically forget about ASEAN becoming something more than the talkshop it is today.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,761201,00.html

[Edited 2011-05-06 14:10:27]

[Edited 2011-05-06 14:10:56]

147 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7906 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Quoting YokoTsuno (Thread starter):
Is this the beginning of the end of it all?

End of the EU? No, it will only expand IMO. As for the Euro, it may devalue and several may shy away, but I think most of our French and German posters would say the Euro is good. Time will tell, but I doubt much will happen.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6649 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

For such a country, it doesn't make sense. The euro is what is keeping it afloat ! I wouldn't be surprised if this rumor came from the very newspaper you're quoting, which doesn't like anything European.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

I read the article this morning. I also read the news about the EU and the Greek government denying the "facts" of the Spiegel article.
I seriously do not know what to believe. After the revelation a few days ago by a previously unseen interview of Strauss-Kahn that the IMF was planning its involvement months before the government admitted it, I do not trust anything the government says. Let us also not forget that the government was denying IMF involvement and bailouts for months before it actually became a reality. At this point, anything is possible, we will just have to wait and see.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Well, I guess nothing is impossible, but I still doubt that Greece would actually go through with this. The advantage of a greek currency in a time of crisis are quite a few, through devaluation.

Devaluation of the hypothetical greek currency (replacement for Euro) would mean for instance, that there would be no need for negotiated and unpopular cut in wages across the board, it would happen automatically.

Devaluation is also a boon for export, as it will be relatively cheaper to buy greek products as the currency devaluates, which in turn can increase productivity (albeit with much lower wages), prevent increased unemployment (a combination of much lower wages and more export) and push for more investment (since holding on to the devaluating greek currency is a very bad option compared to investing).

Normally a devaluation would also lower national debts. However this is where the main obstacle presents itself; namely that the debts of Greece are in Euros, not the hypothetical currency. Thus making a transition to a new greek currency much more painful and difficult than had Greece never joined the Eurozone.

Thus in the end, it may be much better, looking objectively on the situation, that Greece sticks with the Euro and uses the more politically painful methods of resurrecting the economy: i.e. cut down corruption, wages and aim for a credible sustainable economy. Pay off the debts and accept a slow and painful recovery to become stronger than ever before.

This demands political courage and vision, this also demands cooperation in the society and understanding that prosperity can only happen slowly, when there is moderate equality, strong justice and a sense of community.

With all that said, it can still well happen that Greece decides to opt out of the Eurozone, while an option with it's own hurdles (as mentioned above) it is a viable one.

Finally it must be stressed, that the current crisis of Greece is not the fault of the Eurozone. It is a home made problem in Greece, but the question is only whether greeks perceive it easier to find their collective feet again inside it or outside it. The easier way is perhaps outside it, but the responsible and difficult way is inside it.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if this rumor came from the very newspaper you're quoting, which doesn't like anything European.

Der Spiegel is actually pro-Europe, as is most mainstream German media. The article is also very critical of the Greece-leaving-Eurozone scenario.

Well, I hope nothing comes out of it. As bad as the situation is, Greece withdrawing would only make matters worse.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5271 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

I seriously doubt this development. There are issues that the EU must work out, and Greece needs to get (is currently busy getting) its house in order. However, Greece dumping the Euro, and possibly leaving the EU is not the solution, and the Greek government is well aware of that.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

By all accounts in French media, this is a fantasy invented by Der Spiegel (you speculate on the motive); 21st century 'buzz' or news invention, universally and vigorously denied by EU Finance Ministers and not reported by other journals. Sad thing is, the currency has dropped 1% today against the USD as a result of this invention. What is it with that publication; are they the Fox News of Europe?


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 7):
By all accounts in French media, this is a fantasy invented by Der Spiegel (you speculate on the motive); 21st century 'buzz' or news invention, universally and vigorously denied by EU Finance Ministers and not reported by other journals. Sad thing is, the currency has dropped 1% today against the USD as a result of this invention. What is it with that publication; are they the Fox News of Europe?

Maybe if they keep saying it over and over it will end up coming true, or that's what they're hoping.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21460 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Looks a lot like the greek side generating pressure on the european partners to come around with more help.

Actually going through with it would be devastating for Greece itself.

The confidential emergency meeting of the european finance ministers seems to indicate that it's not been just a media invention.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
The confidential emergency meeting of the european finance ministers seems to indicate that it's not been just a media invention.

From what I read, the meeting was planned already and has Greece in the agenda but only to discuss change of the loan terms (duration, payments) and the possibility of a debt restructuring. At least that's what Merkel said. But as I mentioned before, I buy nothing of what's being said by government officials anymore.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
Looks a lot like the greek side generating pressure on the european partners to come around with more help.

That's very cynical of you. Perhaps there is no truth to the speculations of the article and Greece is just working with the other Eurozone countries to get out of the current crisis.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

If this turns out to be a complete beat up by Der Spiegel for their own attention seeking and has bad consequences for the currency, they should be held to account for having abandoned journalism and be permanently classified as the German Glen Beck.


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 12):
If this turns out to be a complete beat up by Der Spiegel for their own attention seeking and has bad consequences for the currency, they should be held to account for having abandoned journalism and be permanently classified as the German Glen Beck.

I see your suspicion, and I'm not fan of theirs, but by and large, this paper is unusually well informed, and has a reputation to lose in this regard. Even if nothing comes out of this rumour (which I hope, and which Der Spiegel advocates as well), the story is very unlikely to be fabricated.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21460 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 11):
That's very cynical of you.

From my point of view it's simply the most plausible interpretation. Greece actually abandoning the Euro would get them into much bigger problems than they've got already.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 12):
If this turns out to be a complete beat up by Der Spiegel for their own attention seeking and has bad consequences for the currency, they should be held to account for having abandoned journalism and be permanently classified as the German Glen Beck.

This kind of report has only gained that much traction because the Spiegel has very good sources and is usually right about this kind of thing. It's not as if less reputable papers hadn't panicked all over already.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
I see your suspicion, and I'm not fan of theirs, but by and large, this paper is unusually well informed, and has a reputation to lose in this regard. Even if nothing comes out of this rumour (which I hope, and which Der Spiegel advocates as well), the story is very unlikely to be fabricated.

"unusually well informed" and "having a reputation to lose" are not words I would choose for Der Spiegel when it comes to reports and news on Airbus.  

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26972 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3751 times:

I can see Greece leaving the Euro but it will never leave the EU .

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21460 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 15):
"unusually well informed" and "having a reputation to lose" are not words I would choose for Der Spiegel when it comes to reports and news on Airbus.

Or Boeing. Or computing. Or pretty much most technical issues when they get more complicated.   

But their main business has always been political reporting, and there they are very well connected and very well informed.

The rumour of the minister meeting has by now been confirmed to have been correct indeed.

On what level the greek government actually considered ditching the Euro remains the question. It may well have been just a theoretical study, or the idea may have been floated as a tactical ploy. The rumour was quite unspecific there. And, of course, that part may have been incorrect after all.


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 11):
That's very cynical of you. Perhaps there is no truth to the speculations of the article and Greece is just working with the other Eurozone countries to get out of the current crisis.

There might be a pinch of cynicism in our friend's comment but a tiny one then.
I would not be surprised if Der Spiegel is spot on.

Cooking the books and telling nice stories is, sorry to say, major pastimes in the country's administrations.
Successive governments have brightly shined through their glorious irresponsibility and their lies.

The problem with Greek finances has started a long long time ago. The EU kept pumping billions in various aids, subsidies, funding and stabilization programs without proper auditing and on-site supervision.
The crack could be sealed at the end of the 90's but it became a hole and the Greek "shipyard" does not have what it needs to fill it in. Come the global crisis and...

The economy is in shambles and whatever the government can do by cutting public expenditures and increasing taxation is insufficient to compensate for the loss of revenues.
Unsurprisingly, the latest figures concerning public debt are even worst than expected....and no one trusts the figures anyway.

There is no in-house solution in the short term.
The Greek for HELP is boeithia (pronounce boïthia)


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26972 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 18):
The Greek for HELP is boeithia (pronounce boïthia)

Voeithia   ( βοήθειά )


User currently offlinewardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Well, I dont blame them.

Here is why.

As you may have noted in the past year or so, all the European countries that DO NOT have the EURO currency in place, are not the ones suffering. Like Hungary, for example. And this would be a great example. No failing banks, No recession, the unemployment there is like around 2 to 3 percent. And no wonder all the US-based companies are investing their resources in one of these Eastern European countries. And this is whats hurting America I may add.....


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):
Voeithia

Xero... I know but non-Greek speakers would think I mistyped a B for a V  


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21460 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 20):
As you may have noted in the past year or so, all the European countries that DO NOT have the EURO currency in place, are not the ones suffering.

Right. Germany, for instance, is suffering horribly from having the Euro.

Sorry, but that is just the usual, unreflected Euro-bashing.

The much more complicated reality is that Ireland, Greece and Portugal each have entered the Euro zone under pretenses which had been flattering and convenient in the short term, but became untenable once reality couldn't be denied any longer.

In contrast, countries which have entered the Euro zone on reasonable parity with their actual, sustainable economic performance have fared rather well.

And Hungary is not exactly a poster child for political stability and economic growth. They've got substantial economic and political problems. The current government is aggressively pursuing a hard-right takeover of the state, progressively dismantling democratic checks and balances and openly sympathizing with the nazi groups who are not just parading the streets but are also stepping up the violence against roma and other minorities.

The longer-term impact of their economic program is also not visible yet – it is relatively easy to create a short upwards spike, but creating sustained growth from a stagnating and insufficiently reformed post-communist economy is a lot harder.

If you're looking for a model state in Europe, I'd really recommend you to look again.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26972 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 20):
Well, I dont blame them.

Here is why.

I think this is the reason why Greeks may look at life without the Euro but from my own family and friends point of view they actually think they need to stay in the Euro and take the pain for the next 20 years the truth is most Greeks trust the EU monitors more than their own government.

[quote=iakobos,reply=21]Xero... I know but non-Greek speakers would think I mistyped a B for a V

Im used to explaining Greeklish lol...


User currently offlinejanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 20):
As you may have noted in the past year or so, all the European countries that DO NOT have the EURO currency in place, are not the ones suffering. Like Hungary, for example. And this would be a great example. No failing banks, No recession, the unemployment there is like around 2 to 3 percent.

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely not true.

UK: Northern Rock, Royal Bank of Scotland, HBOS, Lloyds TSB nationalised or helped by the state;
Hungary: IMF loan of more than 15 billion USD approved in 2008, talks for a new loan for the next year.


25 einsteinboricua : IMO, all the more reason for them to abandon the currency. Well, the euro would take a heavy toll, I'll give you that. But I don't consider leaving G
26 iakobos : Correct (for Greece at least), a bit like the pilot who forged his logbook to get a seat in the cockpit. 302 billions due to lenders (150%+ of GDP),
27 Asturias : The fact that the crisis in Greece has nothing to do with the Euro is all the more reason for Greece to abandon the currency? Perhaps you meant to sa
28 Asturias : Perhaps (I take you as an authority on Greece, of course), but Klaus is completely wrong about Ireland and Portugal. Neither country faked anything t
29 Klaus : At least theoretically, curbing tax evasion and corruption should help bring in the funds to afford regular people decent pensions. Maybe it's not ent
30 Klaus : Yes, they did. Ireland presented itself as if their unstable bubble economy was actually sustainable growth. Portugal is probably not quite on the sa
31 Asturias : No they did not. Ireland had no bubble when they joined the Eurozone. Which was in 1999. Process started in 1992. Obviously you don't have a clue of
32 Braybuddy : Our banks lied to the government about their solvency, which led to the government guaranteeing depositors and bondholders, which in turn precipitate
33 Klaus : There is one possible point of view to see a bubble only the last five minutes before it actually bursts, or another seeing it already when economies
34 Post contains links Braybuddy : Part of the problem as far as Ireland is concerned Klaus, is that for every merchant of doom, we had many, many cheerleaders, at home and abroad. The
35 Post contains images Klaus : No doubt – the snake-oil dealers often get the upper hand when sufficiently many people can be lulled into complacency. This development was a glob
36 Post contains images Asturias : Indeed, that is my take on it too, and it correlates with evidence, such as production rate and GDP - but apparently Klaus thinks differently and cla
37 DETA737 : Greece's (and the rest of Souther Europe's) situation is akin to Argentina's from 1992 to 2002 when they pegged the peso to the U.S. dollar. The Euro
38 PPVRA : Note that a lot of countries use the USD as their own currencies and I have not heard of any of these countries going through what Argentina did. Pan
39 Post contains links DETA737 : Panama has not had the implosion that Argentina has, but Panama did have to turn to the IMF more than any other country but Pakistan being under the
40 Derico : Somewhat, however the US dollar has been going down significantly since 2001. If Argentina had held out a bit longer it would have benefited from the
41 oldeuropean : It's funny that just articles in Der Spiegel already have forecasted the burst of the bubble and the world economy crisis nearly 1 year (!) before it
42 bill142 : Rumours were probably started by currency traders with huge short positions on the euro.
43 shamrock604 : That is quite simply completely and utterly untrue. I'm sorry Klaus, but if we want to have an honest debate on this, i'm all for it, but let's tell
44 iakobos : Our best friends at Standard & Poor's have dropped this morning our long term credit rating at B and short term at C. Rumours are that the brave f
45 OA260 : Weird for the first time today I heard alot of my colleagues say they want to default and return to the Irish Pound ( Punt ) ! I guess people are gett
46 shamrock604 : I am more hopeful today Phil. I think some sense is finally being seen at EU level. You cant saddle a huge debt on a country, to be paid back in 3 yea
47 PPVRA : Thanks for that, I am going through it. Though from what page 7 alone says doesn't sound surprising. They get themselves into fiscal trouble just lik
48 shamrock604 : Even the IMF have now admitted that Ireland were "screwed" by the ECB and The European Commision, but equally that our government at the time seemed
49 FRAspotter : If Greece does end up pulling out of the EU and Euro currency, could this be a possible opening for Turkey to get in?
50 Asturias : No, that would just mean Turkey's "chance" of getting into the EU went from negative 5 to negative 10. The only theoretical chance of Turkey's chance
51 Post contains images FRAspotter : You mean they're not already here? I asked the original question because I was under the impression that one thing that was keeping Turkey out of the
52 Post contains images Asturias : Shhhhhh Actually, Greece (ostensibly) has been very positive lately for Turkey joining (though I think it is mostly because they know that will never
53 einsteinboricua : Out of topic but: The only things keeping Turkey out of the EU are: 1. The Cyprus issue 2. Members' reluctance (most notably France and Austria) to a
54 Post contains links and images Asturias : There are a bunch more, but those are the big ones, yes. As I mentioned in my post. Above. Actually not true, since the Nice treaty was worked well e
55 OA260 : Greece actually wants Turkey in the EU. It would actually help Greece both in security and curbing the influx of illegal migrants. Turkey would have
56 Asturias : Setting aside everything else, that makes no sense. Except if you assume all illegitimate immigrants come from Turkey, thus by making Turkey a member
57 OA260 : It certainly does if Turkey was in the EU then the EU would make more of an effort to help Turkey to police its borders. The Turkish side are quite h
58 Asturias : What? No! Current situation: Greece+Bulgaria share ~200 km border with Turkey. By your logic it must be far easier then for the "EU" to help Greece a
59 iakobos : I have not seen it but I am confident it is a very big one. So, it looks like the EU bean counters are preparing another 60 billions for the Greek St
60 OA260 : So how does Turkey control its borders now then ? I guess if Turkey was inside the ''club'' then they make care more about who enters rather then tur
61 Post contains images lewis : Unfortunately it will always be there, with Ireland it wasn't so bad, with Greece it was borderline offensive. True, did not see the German economy b
62 iakobos : Dear Louis, let's be precise (might be difficult for a local, I know), I have not expressed negative feelings towards the individual person, however
63 gatorfan : let's be honest here. Nobody at the ECB gives a damn about Greece. Keeping Greece in the Euro is all about avoiding a spread of strategic default the
64 Post contains links shamrock604 : It is actually quite bad where we are concerned too. We are "debt sinners", our country is "unstable", we are "liars" who "cheated our way" into the
65 OA260 : Well in fairness your posts have often been read by a few as negative to the Greeks and Greece as a nation but lets put that aside. Why do you stay i
66 Post contains links OA260 : Great read and this really annoyed me and everyone at work today : ''He said that the French government would like to see some movement from Dublin o
67 shamrock604 : And I am one of them. We voted no to Nice. So were forced to vote again until we gave the right answer. We voted no to Lisbon. So were forced to vote
68 lewis : Well, to be honest that part of my post was more sarcastic than serious (hence the smiley face). I am sure you do not have repulsive feelings for the
69 iakobos : Is there anything I wrote that does not correspond to a reasonably accurate reality ? Well, there are three possible outcomes from an observation/ana
70 Asturias : That's a lot of what ifs and maybes; all I know is practically it is easier to control a 200 km border and deal with one country, than 1600 km border
71 shamrock604 : Yes, you are certainly right about this disgusting PIGS term. We know when the Germans last used that tactic and it was brutally effective. We "Pigs"
72 lewis : I am sure this will be an inevitable result if certain EU countries keep being marginalized and whose real needs are ignored for the benefit of a few
73 Asturias : Agreed, ÉPEE countries (Éire, Portugal, Ελλάδα, España) would do well to stick together and make a coalition against the Franco/Germans. The
74 Post contains images shamrock604 : Bring it on! I think we would have much support from the likes of Czech republic, Sweden, Denmark, Italy and even the UK. Even the Dutch came out in
75 Post contains links MD11Engineer : I´ve been following this thread and -i rarely have read as much BS. First, I´m not a friend of Deutsche Band and their ilk, IMO, the bankers, who ru
76 Asturias : One thing about Spain, here also an investment banker or fast money businessman is seen to be very close to a crook. Instead people who manufacture t
77 JJJ : I understand the German members on that. Their economy has shown to be much more solidly built than, say, British or Irish economy who used to mock t
78 MD11Engineer : Actually what happened in Ireland was that the Irish banks gave excessive loans to house buyers and real estate developers (and not just for the use
79 Asturias : You write as if there are any number of cheerleaders for the unsustainable Anglo-American economic model that led to the economic crisis in UK/Irelan
80 Post contains links and images MD11Engineer : On the other hand, greedy bankers or not, nobody held a gun at your head and forced you to take those loans. I understand that Spain got mostly hit b
81 Post contains images Asturias : 100% agreed, though my annoyance is the attitude that Ireland, Spain or Portugal "faked" and "falsified" their economy in the 90s in order to be able
82 Post contains images Asturias : That's true, but we are essentially prevented from allowing said banks to default. While I'm no fan of hyperbole, it is sort of nationalising the los
83 MD11Engineer : Political fallout. If a big bank folds and 1/4 of the population lose their deposits, whom are they going to blame? First the bankers, but they in tu
84 Post contains images Asturias : Very much agreed and with all of your post In fact if these people will not be made touchable and responsible in the future, then this whole crisis i
85 L410Turbolet : ... therein lies the crux of the problem with Euro. ECB's inherently one-size-fits-all policy which does not suit everyone and I doubt that even the
86 gatorfan : I wonder if Trichet personally, the ECB or any of the Euro leaders advocating the current plan are willing to put their money where their mouth is and
87 MD11Engineer : Actually from what I understand the loans given to Greece by the EU countries have a much smaller interest rate than what Greece would get on the fre
88 shamrock604 : MD-11, Your measured posts make a refreshing change from the attitudes of some of your countrymen. However, calling much of the thread BS is going too
89 MD11Engineer : What do you think what happened with those reckless banks over here? I just mention Hypo Real Estate, Commerzbank, Deutsche Bank and West LB (plus a
90 JJJ : Remember when France and Germany could comply with the euro estability criteria? They just moved the goalposts to suit them. There are first, second
91 shamrock604 : Again, MD, i thoroughly agree with your post. My issue is though, why are Germany and France busting our balls so much with this "bail out". Lets be c
92 MD11Engineer : First to say, I don´t agree with the former German government´s decision to deliberately exceed the deficit criteria, because Germany insisted on t
93 Asturias : I'll try to distill my point into one stentece; If a country (e.g. France or Germany) is demanding that other countries pay for the prevention of a po
94 shamrock604 : Precisely. This is why Irish people are getting so bitter at the constant screwing of Ireland for "concessions" so that our "Bail out" terms are bett
95 MD11Engineer : It might not be the case in Spain Portugal or Ireland, but acc. to the BBC attitude towards tax evasion hasn´t changed much in Greece. A big part of
96 shamrock604 : Correct, the banks have used it to shore up their balance sheets. Even getting a 500 euro overdraught here is next to impossible at the moment. The go
97 Post contains links gatorfan : Greece's deficit came in WAY larger than expected at 9.5% of GDP versus the 7.4% target they had agreed to. http://read.bi/jlntay
98 Post contains links and images iakobos : The "never showed up for work" is most probably an exaggeration. There is a thorough study by the ECB on public sector performance in 23 OECD countri
99 lewis : There is still a sense of unfairness for the ordinary tax payer (note that the majority of workers cannot tax-evade as they are taxed on the spot, it
100 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Try arguing with the German tax office. They have a nice department called Steuerfahndung with more power than the regular police (like rights of con
101 Post contains images OA260 : Seems weird because even in Ireland we have lots of Greek products. The UK also. From big supermarket chains like Lidl who have a Greek range importe
102 lewis : Because all austerity measures have done so far is drive the country deeper into recession. The private sector jobs are the first ones to go in this
103 Post contains links iakobos : Well, my spouse, whom happens to be a real (and of course patriotic) Greek, could tell you that bonuses are gone and salary took a serious dip, the e
104 Post contains links OA260 : So it seems they are going after new markets and increasing exports. March exports rise 23 percent Greek exports in March rose 23.6 percent year-on-ye
105 MD11Engineer : So Greece obviously needs to do something to close the gap between government income and spending, else the country will forever be dependent on forei
106 iakobos : For the long term, the fundamentals have to change if this country wants to progress. Education is the first sector that has to be rebuild, the monop
107 Post contains images Asturias : :D asturias
108 MD11Engineer : Published in Berlin´s serious daily newspaper print edition Tagesspiegel yessterady: The German government wants to hold the private investors (this
109 Post contains images Asturias : Good idea from Merkel, and since those (unnamed) countries would never ever oppose this in public, I can't imagine this will be a difficult thing to
110 MD11Engineer : You have to understand that the big private banks are really unpopular over here. Some politicians from the left have called them "locusts": They fal
111 iakobos : I am no economist so allow me to try a summary and submit it for further comments... Just for simplicity I assume Greece and Germany as "the States" a
112 gatorfan : The problem is that the referee is also playing the game. Greece has both a liquidity (cash flow) and solvency (total debt) problem. Right now the EC
113 iakobos : No need to mark them, I have been keeping the same language for the last 14 years and ostracized by the locals, including a very high authority in th
114 oa260 : Well that prediction is probably the easiest of all LOL...
115 MD11Engineer : But, to continue with the example of Greece, what will happen if Greece defaults and leaves the Euro? For Greece, the country WILL be bankrupt even b
116 iakobos : And what if China appears on stage ?
117 MD11Engineer : So China so far was interested to take over Greece´s port and shipbuilding facilities (though acc. to my Canadian uncle, who up to his retirement wa
118 iakobos : From CNN Moneyline, June 2010 Chinese investments in Europe have been relatively insignificant in recent years. But its deals with Greece paint a new
119 gatorfan : That's EXACTLY what they said about Argentina. It seems to have managed through it pretty well. The reality is that Greece IS PRESENTLY bankrupt - it
120 MD11Engineer : the plan should be to give Greece and the other broke countries time to recover. They have to undergo structural and cultural changes to make them com
121 iakobos : Same goes for me, I am a European citizen administratively managed by Belgium, and I do not concur that we have centuries of a different reality behi
122 MD11Engineer : I think that Spain and Ireland have enough substance left to get more or less back on their feet within a few years. Portugal might be a bit problemat
123 shamrock604 : MD11engineer, Amen to that! But I dont think we are going to avoid default unless the "bail out" deal changes dramatically. It seems it is now France
124 Post contains images Baroque : But he might be preferable to having the Tea party? On tonight's ABC news (Aus) Alan Kohler showed a chart where one type of government debt had Ital
125 iakobos : I don't know what was on the chart but in terms of public debt vs GDP we (Greece) beat Italy 150+ to 118 or along those figures. If Zimbabwe does not
126 OA260 : I think the Irish need to send a clear signal to Paris and advise them in the nicest way that if the terms dont improve its time to default. Increasi
127 MD11Engineer : I am currently in Ireland and what I´ve heard on RTE yesterday during Obama´s visit was that Obama wants to put the screws on American companies, w
128 lewis : I would probably say both. Of course you should be responsible with your finances. On the other hand, a bank that knowingly lends money to individual
129 iakobos : ...coincidence, after lewis's post I see a banner (in Dutch) from Cofidis Direct Cash 500 to 10,001 Euro we give credit to all your plans ask here
130 OA260 : Ireland needs to forget about the obsession with America and look to other markets instead. The Obama visit was a nice 24 hour publicity hype for his
131 Baroque : He got the chart from an International organization, maybe OECD. The ABC does not reproduce his charts on its web site, presumably because he charges
132 MD11Engineer : One thing I´ve also heard on RTE was that the Irish banks have not passed the bailouts to the general public (mainly small businesses) as expected.
133 MD11Engineer : On the other hand (northern) Italy still has a functioning manufacturing sector, and unlike Greece, they are not insolvent due to money coming in. In
134 Post contains links JJJ : Spain just posted deficit figures for Y2010 below estimates and according to the adjustment plan. Total deficit went to 9,24% (estimate was 9,3%). Of
135 OzGlobal : This is clearly the case with most Americans. They assume the target is the US model, which it isn't. Then they critique if for not being on track to
136 Post contains images iakobos : Allow me to disagree to a certain extent. I am another example of European first, whatever country next. The fact that I lived and worked in several
137 OA260 : I would certainly not pay for water charges as where I live the quality and the huge amount of lime costs me a fortune in water softeners and de limi
138 shamrock604 : Bang on. People had been reminding the government for years that the water system needed a major upgrade and it was ignored. I'm not willing to pay f
139 MD11Engineer : as long as Ireland´s geology consists mainly of limestone you won´t have soft water (only the acidic water from the peart bogs is soft, but I´ll d
140 shamrock604 : Again, you are merely seeing what you want to see. That government did not consult us. It did not even consult its own cabinet. The decision was made
141 MD11Engineer : And who was (and is) so much set against regulations in the financial sector (besides the banks and speculators who profit from it)? Who declares any
142 shamrock604 : In this case, I would like you to answer your own question, because I sure as hell dont know! The prevailing view in Ireland is that we need to make
143 Post contains images OA260 : If you provide water which you are expected to pay for that when you boil the kettle once the day you buy it the bottom is covered already in lime th
144 Post contains links and images Baroque : I think they call that whisky Jan. Seriously, if you want water with the dissolved calcium taken out, you are going to have to pay for it. Alternativ
145 MD11Engineer : What do the Irish drinking water laws say? Over here it has to be free of dangerous microbes and chemicals. Hard water is just a nuisance. Again, if
146 MD11Engineer : Oh, boy, we did already! The rescue of several banks for their f*ck ups in the US and other countries cost us German taxpayers a lot. The Commerzbank
147 shamrock604 : Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that you didnt have to pay anything. But clearly you wont in the case of their exposure to Irish banks. I think peop
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