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The Smallest Unit Of Measurement Is.......?  
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

Well, I had quite a time with that "discussion" about cars and car companies!

Here's one that will "stump" everyone on A.net, I'm guessing, and there are absolutely no "opinions" involved !

There really is a "world's smallest unit of measurement" and I doubt if many are even aware of it, much less know what it is called.

I hope someone proves me wrong..........................? ( We'll know in a few days )

Charley


Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Planck length? 1.616252(81)Γ—10βˆ’35 m

Any distance smaller that becomes meaningless due to the underlying fluctuations in the structure of spacetime.


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6684 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Planck length? 1.616252(81)Γ—10βˆ’35 m

Any distance smaller that becomes meaningless due to the underlying fluctuations in the structure of spacetime.

The OP said unit of measure not distance, so I assume we are going down the scale, milli, micro, nano, pico....



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6676 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):
The OP said unit of measure not distance, so I assume we are going down the scale, milli, micro, nano, pico....

You're heading in the right general direction but you still have a long way to go !



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAKiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 651 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6667 times:

Probably it would be the time for light to travel the planck length (aka 5.39*10^-44 m/s).

I am trying to think if you could divide other elemental SI units down smaller but tbh in my current state I can't think of anything.

Although thinking about it the fundamental question is flawed. No unit of measurement has a theoretical minimum in of itself, it only may have a theoretical lowest value. Therefore, for example, you could theoretically claim a length smaller than the planck length, which is still a completely valid unit of distance (meters is meters is meters) but it is simply non-physical. One must be careful considering definitions.



Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6632 times:
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Quoting Geezer (Reply 3):
You're heading in the right general direction but you still have a long way to go !

... femto, atto, zepto, yocto.... am I getting warm?



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Andz..............WTF ? Must be a new language I've never heard before ! One word ! Just ONE word !

( And you'll be surprised )...........( especially if you're an Italian )



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6527 times:

Smallest unit of measurement of what? Length? Volume? Mass? Time? Yellowness? Upsidedownness?

Milli-, micro-, nano-, kilo-, etc., are multipliers/dividers, not units of measurements.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 6):
especially if you're an Italian

Anything to do with being far too small to worry about on a Saturday - come back om Monday?   


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6500 times:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
There really is a "world's smallest unit of measurement"

This is just as bad as trying to solve 48/2(9+3).

Your wording is too ambiguous and technically wrong.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6489 times:
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Quoting Geezer (Reply 6):
especially if you're an Italian

Sono sicuramente non italiano!



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6487 times:

Here you go:

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=world%27s+smallest+unit+of+measurement

    


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 10):
Here you go:

If it's the one I think you mean, that's a quantity with no units specified.  


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

And I missed this bit:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
I hope someone proves me wrong

I'm going to prove you wrong, because:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
There really is a "world's smallest unit of measurement"

There really isn't, as the "world" doesn't matter when it comes to "unit's of measurement". It's all math and physics.

I believe what you are asking is "what are the most fundamental units measurable?"

The answer: Planck units.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6423 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 12):
I believe what you are asking is "what are the most fundamental units measurable?"

The answer: Planck units.

Not necessarily. Planck time and length are the smallest time and length that make physical sense (according to current understanding). Planck temperature is the highest that makes sense. Planck mass is about 22Β΅g, or the mass of a flea egg. Planck charge is about 11,7 elementary charges, which is not so elementary after all since quarks have charges Β±β…“ or β…” elementary charges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units



Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6342 times:

As I was just typing this about 2 hrs ago, we were under a tornado warning; then the local news said the tornado warning was going to miss our county, and down graded our warning to "severe T-storms, which we had, and apparently the post I had typed "went with the thunder storms" because it's no longer here ! So, I will post it again;


Forget Max Planck ! What I'm talking about came about after he was dead; ( R.I.P. Max )

O.K. As everyone here knows, there are "more than one" systems of measurement in the world, and fortunately most "forward thinking" countries have adopted the "far superior" one of the two; we O.K. so far ?

This "well known system" has a "fundamental" unit of LINEAR measurement; this "fundamental" unit is "broken down" into ever "smaller and smaller" "units", all of which have ONE WORD names; ( no math, no "formulas", no "fancy-schmancy" theory ), just plain old names; Some are quite well known, a few less so. The absolute smallest one is the one "we" are after...............................

Sometime ago, I was in the process of "researching" a project that "had to do with" the various kinds of electron microscopes; I happened to come across this "elusive" small "thing"; ( of which I was previously unaware )
As some may know, I tend to have my "nose in a book" much of the time, and I tend to remember much of what I read; when I run across something "fundamental" for the very first time, it sometimes surprises me; so I was just thinking.........".I wonder why I have never heard about this before ?"

The more important something seems to be, the greater the odds are that I will remember it; this just seemed like something that I needed to remember. ( I hope this post will "survive" it's journey through the internet ! )



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6321 times:

Scientists have recorded the "honkosecond" as the shortest possible measurable increment of time.

It is the time interval between the traffic light turning green and the driver of the second car in line honking his horn at the first car in line....
    

I propose decemo for 10^-30 for the smallest SI unit, but it is unofficial.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 14):
unit of LINEAR measurement

Specifically length/displacement?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 15):
It is the time interval between the traffic light turning green and the driver of the second car in line honking his horn at the first car in line....

In some places it can even be a negative value.  


User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6131 times:

Looks like the "guru's" have been at it again.................the text box has been changed somewhat since yesterday;

Anyway...........................As I'm sure you all know, the metric system is the most elegant, most orderly system of measurement ever conceived. Everything is in multiples of 10 ( ten ), ( or 100 )

It all starts with the basic unit, the meter; fine for measuring "big" things, ( mountain heights, city blocks, football fields, etc.)
When we need to measure "small" things, we simply divide the meter by 100, and we have the centimeter;
To illustrate what I'm talking about, we need to start out with the centimeter, (cm); imagine if you will, a sheet of paper, say, 15 or 16 centimeters wide, with a vertical line every cm; we will need 15 vertical lines, one every cm.

On the far left line, we will put "cm" as our starting point; from that point on, every next line to the right is i/10 that of the one before it, so line no.2 will be "mm", or .1 cm. I'm sure everyone is quite familiar with millimeters; moving to the right again, we have .01 cm, ( or 1/100 cm ) do this 2 more times, and line 5 becomes .0001 cm. This one has a name; Micron, or 1/10,000 cm.

So as we move to each line to the right, we simply add another zero, and in so doing, we divide by 10; by the time we reach line no. 8, things are getting really small ! .000,0001 cm ; this one also has a name which everyone is familiar with; Nanometer, or 1/10,000,000 cm;

That's pretty small, but for some things we need even smaller units of measure;

On line no. 9 we now have nine zeros, or 1/100,000,000 ( one hundred millionth cm ) and this one also has a name;
If you know anyone who designs lenses, or has occasion to deal with wave lengths of light, you will hear a lot about.....
Angstroms; That really is small ! For a very long time, I mistakenly "assumed" that the "angstrom" was small enough to describe just about anything, but just a few years ago I found that my "assumption" was wrong ! There really IS something smaller than the angstrom; a LOT smaller ! ( here's why we need all these vertical lines.........to allow us to "keep track of" the number of times we divide the cm by ten ); they afford us a sense of "scale".

Moving on to the right and line 10, we have .00,000,0001 cm ; line 11 is .000,000,0001 cm ,
line 12 is .0,000,000,0001 cm, line 13 is .00,000,000,000 Hold it ! we have now divided the cm into one TRILLION parts ! That certainly should be small enough to describe anything now, or in the future, but apparently it's not;
Because...............on line 14, we reach the "end of the line" ! We now have the little "cm", centimeter, .39 inch, divided into an astonishing ten trillion parts ! And it has a name; which I happen to think is a very appropriate name, because it honors and was named after a "hero" of mine, the recipient of the 1938 Nobel Prize for physics, the man who conducted the world's first controlled, self sustaining nuclear chain reaction, ( on a squash court beneath a stadium at the University of Chicago ), the late, GREAT Italian theoretical physicist, Dr. Enrico Fermi.

Surely .000,000,000,0001 cm ( .39 inch ) divided into ten trillion parts should suffice to measure anything "small", but who knows ? I can only hope that if anyone ever comes up with a smaller unit than the "Fermi", they will name it as appropriately as they did this one.

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6107 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 17):
Surely .000,000,000,0001 cm ( .39 inch ) divided into ten trillion parts should suffice to measure anything "small", but who knows ? I can only hope that if anyone ever comes up with a smaller unit than the "Fermi", they will name it as appropriately as they did this one.

The femtometre shares the unit symbol (fm) with the older non-SI unit fermi, to which it is equivalent. The fermi, named in honour of Enrico Fermi, is often encountered in nuclear physics.

And it is nowhere near the smalles unit prefix, which is yocto, or 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001

or 10^-24, as per the General Conference on Weights and Measures. So you've just been pulling our leg, old man, since your premise was wrong.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently onlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3394 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6098 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 17):
Surely .000,000,000,0001 cm ( .39 inch ) divided into ten trillion parts should suffice to measure anything "small", but who knows ? I can only hope that if anyone ever comes up with a smaller unit than the "Fermi", they will name it as appropriately as they did this one.

Hey, I've just invented a measure of .000,000,000,000,0001 cm ( .39 inch ), which I will modestly call the petermeter (PM).

And my teacher said I'd never accomplish anything important.  



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 17):
Anyway...........................As I'm sure you all know, the metric system is the most elegant, most orderly system of measurement ever conceived. Everything is in multiples of 10 ( ten ), ( or 100 )

Actually, a measurement system based on a number system in base pi would be the most elegant and most orderly system of measurement. Radian systems aren't too bad either.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 17):
I can only hope that if anyone ever comes up with a smaller unit than the "Fermi", they will name it as appropriately as they did this one.

Again, it's called the Planck length. It's the smallest length that can be measured, because at distances "smaller" than that quantum mechanics takes over everything, and the dimensions we're used to just don't exist as they do on a macroscopic scale.

And again, your premise is flawed. You can divide the meter (or metre, if that's your preference) into as many parts as you want, and name your own prefix for it.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 18):


And it is nowhere near the smalles unit prefix, which is yocto, or 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001

The smallest SI prefix.  



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3379 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6067 times:

Technically, there is no such thing as a smallest unit. If numbers can extend all the way to infinity (both positive and negative), the inverse of said numbers will result in smaller numbers which (depending on the case) can be considered zero from a certain point. Realistically though, only zero is zero, so a yocto is small enough to be considered zero but it itself is not zero. Likewise, smaller numbers like 1E-36 and 1E-100 and 1E-10000000E10000000 (a super mega Googolplex) is still not zero.

However, your question asks smallest unit of measurement. Considering that milli, yocto, Mega, etc are simply multipliers and not actual units, the smallest unit is:
Planck's Length: 1.616252(81)Γ—10βˆ’35



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6018 times:

[quote=Asturias,reply=18]And it is nowhere near the smalles unit prefix, which is yocto, or 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001

Mucho gracias, Professor Asturias ! I stand "enlightened" ! I shall report this "recent development" to the National Geographic Society immediately ! ( Inasmuch as it was in one of their magazines that I encountered "all of those zeros"
in the first place, about six years ( or so ) ago. ( I believe the magazine was app. 9 yrs. old at the time )
Yocto huh ? ( That sounds a little like "Yugo".........they were pretty small too ! ) ( Do you have any information on who this "thing" was named after ? )



[quote=Maverick623,reply=20]And again, your premise is flawed. You can divide the meter (or metre, if that's your preference) into as many parts as you want, and name your own prefix for it.

Thank YOU Maverick623 for pointing out the "flawed premise"; I shall pass that information along to The National Geographic Society also, when I email them to point out that their "article" has become out-o-date, and is in serious need of being up-dated, or possibly completely re-written, so as to include this newest "Yocto" thingie.
And my "preference" as for how to spell "meter"...........actually I have tried it both ways, and I kinda think the "er' version sound better............it sorta goes with "water meter", "electric meter", "gaso meter", and that "thing" on my Kubota that tells me how many hours the little diesel engine has been running....................

BTW..........................now that we have this "Yocto" thing ( with all of it's 23 zero's ) to measure "small stuff" with, I think I will probably just keep on using "Fermi's", as they have been sufficient for my needs for quite a while now.



[quote=petertenthije,reply=19]Hey, I've just invented a measure of .000,000,000,000,0001 cm ( .39 inch ), which I will modestly call the petermeter (PM).

And my teacher said I'd never accomplish anything important.

Peter; I think that's a splendid "accomplishment" ! I will be mentioning your new "PM" when I communicate with National Geographic Society ; doubtless they will be in need of some photos for the new magazine article, so you may want to have a few handy...........................

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 22):
Mucho gracias, Professor Asturias ! I stand "enlightened" ! I shall report this "recent development" to the National Geographic Society immediately ! ( Inasmuch as it was in one of their magazines that I encountered "all of those zeros"
in the first place, about six years ( or so ) ago. ( I believe the magazine was app. 9 yrs. old at the time )
Yocto huh ? ( That sounds a little like "Yugo".........they were pretty small too ! ) ( Do you have any information on who this "thing" was named after ? )

Oh "no hay de que"! it was in fact professor Andz that came up with that yocto- is the smallest SI (official) prefix in reply no. 5, and the name yocto is derived from the greek word for eight, or octo - ostensibly because it is 1000^-8 (which is the same as 10^-24, or basically 8 times three zeros, ending with a 1)

It's equivalent on the other side is yotta or 10^24 or 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000, but well, these are all just standard issue SI prefixes. Good to know, but as the metric system works (as you have so finely pointed out above) it is basically infinite and can be expanded as much as we like or need.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

Professor Asturias; Thank you again; I'm really learning a lot from all this; but..............

Now I am REALLY confused............so you say this "yocto" is from some Greek word; ( Greek words are all "Greek" to me!) So that would seem to indicate that all "things" eight-sided would become "yoctagonal" ?

This whole business has convinced me that I probably made the right decision years ago, to drive a truck rather than to become a violinist, ( later found that I have insufficient musical "talent" ) or a physicist ( I seem to have a problem keeping track of all those zero's ). Fortunately, now that I no longer am obliged to work in order to eat, most of my requirements for measuring "things" can be handled by my retractable tape measure. ( There is one problem though. )

As you may ( or may not ) know, for a very long time, 99% of all measuring in this country was accomplished with the so-called "English System" ; all while I was a child growing "up", and being taught this "system", ( which as you may know) is largely based on such things as the length of the King's foot, the distance from the King's nose to the end of his index finger on his out-stretched arm, and so on, many of the more "enlightened" people in other places and other countries had determined that the metric system was a much better idea, so they said " to heck with this nonsense" and ended up "going metric" all the way. Of course I was "unaware" of all of this at the time, so I just continued "plodding along", measuring things with "the King's foot", etc.

As long as I was going to school and allowing the teachers to tell me what was "right", and how to "think", it was no problem; ( or at least I was still un-aware of the impending problems to come ) At some point in time, ( probably in the 1950"s ) there was an effort mounted to get the U.S. to "switch" to the metric system; this "effort" was met with a degree of enthusiasm from the general public roughly in relation to that which one would expect from, say, the Germans if you were to tell them that they suddenly needed to start speaking Chinese.

I should point out, this was mostly the government's idea; even though the idea was met with the afore-mentioned "lack of enthusiasm", the government was "undaunted", ( as they so often are ) So, to "create" enthusiasm, they just passed a law ! Just like that ! All automobiles will now be required to have speedometers reading in "KPH" rather than "MPH";
It was decided that to "lessen the shock", for the first few years the speedometers with have BOTH "MPH" and "KPH" on the dials. Then soon after, they started requiring metric nuts and bolts to fasten the cars together.
( Not all the nuts and bolts, just some of the nuts and bolts. ) Well, this was met with great enthusiasm by some, ( mainly the hand tool industry ), and somewhat less enthusiasm by others, ( all the mechanics who have to buy hand tools ); since all of this started "coming about", it has actually gone off into about 9 different directions, in a few years the government seemed to be losing it's enthusiasm for "things metric", and soon the "KPH" markings were no longer on the speedometers, some of the nuts and bolts were metric, while others were still "S.A.E.", and that's pretty much where we are at present;

The next big "metric push" came about from ( of all places ) Coca Cola ! ( and Pesi Cola ) All soft drinks started coming in LARGE plastic bottles; ( one "liter" ) this continued for a few years, till finally people realized that carbonated beverages in plastic bottles tend to "go flat" "pdq" ; enter the aluminum Coke can ! Then it was discovered that the smelting of bauxite into aluminum leads to terrible air pollution; that's pretty much where we are still at now, but I imagine they may try waxed cardboard boxes next, ( like the milk folks used before switching to plastic "jugs" )

So........is the U.S. a "metric country" ? I suppose you could say..........."sorta" .

And now, after all of that, after 75 % of my high school class mates are "no longer with us" as they say, I find out that we have "Yocto's", tiny little 8-sided "thingies", only with a "Y" ! ( And all while I'm still trying to figure out how to run my new Nikon digital camera ! ) ( I think I'll go listen to La Traviata ! )

Charley

P.S. I still prefer Italian names for things, especially those ending in "i" !



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
25 Maverick623 : You missed the key word: derived. It's like the difference between "eight" and "eighth" or "eighths", all of which has subtly different meanings. As
26 Post contains images Asturias : Very interesting read, thanks for that Charley! I certainly did not know about this history of the "adaptation" (or intended adaptation) of the metric
27 Maverick623 : Which are all Latin And these are all Greek. Does that mean the scientific community values Greece more than Italy? RACISTS!!!!1111oneoneone
28 Post contains images Asturias : Of course With their fancy greek-y sounding extra SI prefixes and the IUPAC with their fancy schmancy hexa-, deca- and eta-s (my favorite being etano
29 PlaneWasted : My favourite small, but not the smallest unit of measurement, is the beard second. The beard-second is defined as the length an average beard grows in
30 Geezer : In all seriousness................................ A few of the things that have always "bugged me" about life in the U.S............ For years, schoo
31 Post contains images Asturias : Well I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thread and learned a lot myself, and I agree completely on your sentiments on being a part of
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