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Another American Detained In Dubai  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6320 times:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...merican.detained/index.html?hpt=T2

Quote:
An American detained for more than two months in the United Arab Emirates faces up to seven years in prison for stealing police handcuffs, an allegation he says he only confessed to after being tortured.

This happens way too much to American and EU citizens in Dubai.

I think the first thing that the State Department ought to do is issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home.

That should get the attention of the Emirati. This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3387 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I think the first thing that the State Department ought to do is issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home.

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them.   ,   , and that would actually work  .



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.

There do seem to be some strange offences/trumped up charges that catch people..

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...a-rude-gesture-allowed-to-fly-home

A surgeon stranded in Dubai after claims he made a rude gesture at another driver has been given permission to fly back home.

Joseph Nunoo-Mensah, from Tameside, had his passport seized after clashing with the motorist during a family holiday.

The 41-year-old, a consultant colorectal surgeon at King's College Hospital in London, was warned he would be charged with public indecency with a maximum penalty of five years in jail.
.
.
.

Joseph and his family were in Dubai on a family holiday on April 27 when a car drove up behind them flashing its lights.

He says he pulled over to let him pass but when the other driver refused to do so, he spread out his hands in a quizzical gesture. He was later pulled in by the police.


If you can be arrested and face 5 years for raising your hands in an expression of bemusement/frustration, it's not a place I'd be in any hurry to go to.

Makes you wonder if there's an undercurrent of "get the foreigner" operating over there,



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6118 times:

Quoting DocLightning


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6111 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 1):

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them. , , and that would actually work .

I would say that would be the next step.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me - I may be heading there for a 2-year gig. I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

That should get the attention of the Emirati. This is not the way you treat your valued guests upon whom your economy depends.


In this particular case I think I'm siding more with the tourist, however, it all sounds suspiciously dramatic, I'd like to hear the other side.

As ridiculous, idiotic and medieval as the laws may be in the emirates, frankly I feel no sympathy for most of these tourists that get in trouble. They should at least have had it present in their head one way or another how backwards this country is.

I find it idiotic when say, spring breakers in Mexico bitch moan and whine when they get their drunken assess thrown in jail and then blame the Mexican government for ruining their vacations and come home crying to mommy and daddy saying how horrible the country is blablabla. It's like they think that just because they are out of their own country somehow they think the laws suddenly don't apply to them. Brilliant   


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 1):

You could do that or ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released that will teach them. , , and that would actually work .


I would say that would be the next step.

That is not going to happen.

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me

Don't let him. My friend goes to DBX two to three times a year for extended periods and he is fine.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me - I may be heading there for a 2-year gig. I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.

My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 6):

In this particular case I think I'm siding more with the tourist, however, it all sounds suspiciously dramatic, I'd like to hear the other side.

The other side is that he stole handcuffs. Even if it's true, it's hardly worth a seven year sentence. Then there was the Englishman who got locked up for four months out of a seven year sentence for having a tiny spec of pot on the sole of his foot. They accused him of "Drug trafficking." The British government finally got him released.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
My friend goes to DBX two to three times a year for extended periods and he is fine.

I know a guy who snorts coke every weekend and so far he is fine. That doesn't make it a good idea.


User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

I have followed your non aviation postings keenly and I'm alarmed that you have already pronounced judgments on this matter. Read the article, there is SO MUCH inconsistency and as the democratic nations you and I represent (If you have prejudices against India we will leave that for another thread) we have to hear the other side before attesting someone guilty.

While you may deem the Gulf as a place of hell, it is not all that botched up as you project. Having stayed there for 18 years of my life, I can assure you that the article is concealing a lot than it is revealing. Yes the Arabs treat Indians like shit in general (though they are much more civil than what they were in the 90s) but very rarely have the police arrested expats on some silly charges as mentioned above [Saudi Arabia is an exception in this case]. Now if 3rd world citizens like us Indians (as the Arabs in general see) are not slapped such random charges that often I really don't think that of all the nationalities the Americans, who are regal citizens when compared to us for the emaratis, would be arrested for something this silly.

I really feel you have to give room for the other side to explain.

[Edited 2011-05-14 03:41:47]


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 9):
Yes the Arabs treat Indians like shit in general

Now I'm REALLY scared!

Ojas, if you have been following Doc's postings you will know that he is a broadminded and open person, and bears no grudges. Everybody in the US loves India.


User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
Ojas, if you have been following Doc's postings you will know that he is a broadminded and open person, and bears no grudges. Everybody in the US loves India.

Which is why I posted.

Doc has always been a fair, open minded, liberal unassuming poster and a thread like this just did not suit his regular style and hence my reaction.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community. In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.

This is nothing more than scare mongering. Give me a break Doc.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I know a guy who snorts coke every weekend and so far he is fine. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Great anaolgy, comparing someone breaking the law to someone traveling to Dubai. Snorting coke is never a good idea.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This happens way too much to American and EU citizens in Dubai.

Oh I forgot just exactly how many Americans have been detained in Dubai against their will lately? Jeez an ex screener here Josh May has lived there for over a year and he hasn't told me of mass detentions for no reason. This is such a bunch of hooey.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12637 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5882 times:
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Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Doc, you are scaring the daylights out of me



Don't let him. You'll be fine.

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
I believe there are some prescription drugs that are banned there too, so you have to be careful.



Some countries don't allow certain prescription drugs. As a visitor, it's your job to check and make sure before you travel. It's a normal part of travelling this big, beautiful World. See this link for full information about prescription drugs in the UAE:
http://www.dubai.ae/en.portal?topic,...7,1,&_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=general

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
In my opinion, any Westerner going to Dubai is taking a huge risk.



A huge risk?   

Yet millions willingly take this "risk" every year WITHOUT managing to get themselves arrested. How strange!   

I've lived and worked there and often visit on vacation (and will be again in November). Guess how many times I've been arrested? Clue - it's a number less than one.

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
Now I'm REALLY scared!



There are lots of professional Indians who live a very safe and comfortable life in the UAE. Yes, for the low-paid labourers, life is tough, but they still choose to work there.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5881 times:

Standard advice to any person travelling to another country is to familiarise yourself with the laws of that country, including what is a prohibited import or possession. Ignorance is not an excuse in the legal systems of many countries.

In this particular case we have someone arrested with handcuffs in his suitcase, which he admits to the media he found and thought "souvenir". Stealing by finding is an offence in many countries. Then he whines that he is detained "without proof". Say what?

When has anyone ever met anyone who wasn't beaten up by the police? When has a guilty person ever been sent to prison? They are all innocent, if you believe their stories.

While the possible sentence, if convicted, may be seven years actual sentences may be much shorter. Here in Western Australia the maximum sentence for theft is according to section 378 of the Criminal Code:
"378. Penalty for stealing
"Any person who steals anything capable of being stolen is guilty of a crime, and is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to imprisonment for 7 years."
Perhaps Western Australia is as backwards as the UAE, but what is the maximum penalty in States of the Union?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5838 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):

In this particular case we have someone arrested with handcuffs in his suitcase, which he admits to the media he found and thought "souvenir". Stealing by finding is an offence in many countries. Then he whines that he is detained "without proof". Say what?

WA would fine someone and then let them go. They would also give him a fair trial, which is not the case in the UAE.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5821 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 11):
and a thread like this just did not suit his regular style and hence my reaction.

Point taken!   I have been on three very brief visits to Dubai in the past and have pshawed the good doc once before. Now that I face the prospect of living there, it's another story!

Cheers.


User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2595 posts, RR: 30
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5789 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
Point taken! I have been on three very brief visits to Dubai in the past and have pshawed the good doc once before. Now that I face the prospect of living there, it's another story!

Let me know when you get to the UAE. It would be good to meet you.

I have lived in the UAE for 6 years -and have been arrested here, but I did nothing wrong and luckily common sense prevailed and I am still here and free. Some may not be so lucky.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5777 times:

Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 17):
Let me know when you get to the UAE. It would be good to meet you.

Thank you! I met Airxliban on one of my trips. I'll know if my trip is for real sometime in June.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Well out "valued guest" has been found guilty and sentence has been passed.

The court heard that he gave different accounts of what he told police, considered the plea of his lawyer and imposed a custodial sentence of not seven years but one month.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/19/american-jailed-in-dubai

Is that still reason enough to "issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home" or "ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released?"

You'll be pleased to know that in the past two weeks I travelled through Dubai twice and was arrested during neither visit. But then, I wasn't stealing government property or running drugs.  



Edited to add link.





[Edited 2011-05-20 00:12:47]

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5544 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
an allegation he says he only confessed to after being tortured.

So he says, where is the proof?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
My advice would be not to go. I won't set foot near the place. One false step in front of the wrong person and your gig might be a lot longer than two years. You have NO rights there and you can be detained essentially at will, with flimsy excuses to justify it to the international community.

I get that you have an anti Emirates due to there dislike of gay persons but cut the crap, my company has an office in Dubai which has been running for years, the guy running it is an openly gay rather extravagant Swede, he's never had any issues.

You can detained in the US just as easily, you could end up in gitmo and spend years there for just having the wrong name, get tortured and confess to all sorts of things, same deal isn't it.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5497 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
"issue an advisory warning U.S. Citizens to not travel to the UAE for any reason outside of diplomatic, and advising all U.S. Citizens in Dubai to return home" or "ban EK of all landing rights in the US until all Americans arrested for nonsense laws are released?"

LOL. I love the banning of landing rights. I was all set to tell my buddies no more pics of the EK 380.   


User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):

You can detained in the US just as easily, you could end up in gitmo and spend years there for just having the wrong name, get tortured and confess to all sorts of things, same deal isn't it.

That's on the extreme end that probably won't happen to you. It gets worse though. We have many smaller rights infringements that go unnoticed or un-complained about everyday here that I know for fact bewilder some of my european friends. For example, something as mundane as a divorce proceeding can irrevocably ruin your life.
It sounds silly, but I'm totally serious there. Why? Because it's an area where financial, travel, and even items related to free speech can be sanctioned (Americanese for "we're taking these 'rights' away from you") with NO DUE PROCESS whatsoever. It amazes me to no end that more red blooded 'merkins aren't outraged by these things.

And how about the way we're treating the IMF president? I can totally understand how our friends from France are outraged over this. Presumption of innocence, my arse!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
my company has an office in Dubai which has been running for years, the guy running it is an openly gay rather extravagant Swede, he's never had any issues.

So, serious question then. What is the general attitude towards gays there like?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25775 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 22):
Presumption of innocence, my arse!

You might want to read a 1978 US Supreme Court ruling that is posted in that thread. (reply 101)

There is no longer a presumption of innocence once Probable Cause has been deemed met. While not convicted of the accused crime, he/she is no longer presumed to be innocent.

Here is a snip of their longer decision:

After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute probable cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

LAX,

The thrust of my argument is an admission that the United States does indeed fail miserably where the "rights" of it's citizens are concerned, and that is somewhat hypocritical to say that we are absolutely better (in that regard) than a place like Dubai, where you just didn't have any to begin with. To be sure, we are still better in some ways, but jailing a foreign citizen for an unproved crime is indeed a huge, catastrophic embarrassment, that frankly, all americans should be ashamed of. There is no question that the drafters of our constitution would never have approved such an abortion as mentioned above. Though it is indeed a technicality that the prosecution is clinging to here, it is merely more evidence of the fascism creep that we are experiencing here. Sad times indeed.


25 OzGlobal : This sort of trap can happen at any time in Arab countries and the UAE are specialists in arbitrary "justice", dished out generally to foreigners of c
26 stratosphere : Just give me another reason to never go there. Even Mexico plays games but usually you throw them few bucks and you can go. They don't hold you for y
27 lewis : Although I have relatives and friends who moved to the UAE and they keep telling me how good it is to live there, this is the reason why I would neve
28 Post contains links Rara : It's not just the legal system.. this story here is lengthy reading, but very interesting: http://www.b3ta.com/questions/theboss/post460435
29 directorguy : What's scary is that even the most innocent of situations (picking up a handcuff as a souvenir) can have sinister repercussions in the UAE. Granted, i
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