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Kyoto Treaty Dies  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

It's about time.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/cl...ur-big-nations-20110528-1f9dk.html

Quote:
DEAUVILLE, France: Russia, Japan and Canada told the G8 they would not join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto Protocol at United Nations talks this year and the US reiterated it would remain outside the treaty, European diplomats have said.

You have to love this part... It's all Bush's fault.

Quote:
The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.

Clinton told Gore to sign the stupid thing but the Senate passed the Byrd-Hagel resolution in 1997, passing 95-0, which stated the Treaty shouldn’t be signed. So CLINTON never sent it on to the Senate. Bush never signed it, and neither has Obama.

So why throw that line in there other then to highlight their BDS?

Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.

Despite major implementation of eco-measures at manufacturing firms that have had little effect other than reducing utility bills, even the host country of the summit has failed to make significant reductions in CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions are a fact of life for any country with the lifestyles that accompany industrialization, put simply.

We should start finding another way to refer to this dumb protocol though - no need to drag a storied and beautiful city's name through the mud every time.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4305 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

However, there is absolutely no moral ground now for developed countries to ask developing ones like Brazil, Ecuador, Central Africa, Indonesia, etc, to stop cutting down their rainforest.

Many of these governments said that if Kyoto went down, they could not defend setting back their development because rich countries are concerned about the ''rainforest''. Either they pay hefty sums to keep it protected, or it's going up in smoke.

Already last year was a record for rainforest loss.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Either way, the scam known as Kyoto is dead, with even fewer countries agreeing to such a treaty today as 15 years ago.

Good riddance to bad legislation!
Let this be the beginning of the end of the man-made global warming/climate change hysteria.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
Many of these governments said that if Kyoto went down, they could not defend setting back their development because rich countries are concerned about the ''rainforest''. Either they pay hefty sums to keep it protected, or it's going up in smoke.

Already last year was a record for rainforest loss.

Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management. Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Deforestation is a serious, albeit mostly unrelated issue of poor land management. Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.

Yeah well, the rainforest non-renewable resource is eliminated at *our* peril, not just their. I don't see any problem with forcing the hand of less developed nations in this regard, they don't seem to appreciate the problem.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

Why are people anti-environmentalist? Regardless of whether you believe in global warming, you have to admit that human's impact on the earth is much more vast than say, the common housefly. Not to mention, we have a conscious, which means we should be sensitive to what we do environmentally. I agree, some people have gone way too far with it, BUT, I do believe in global warming, even if it is only 1 degree every 10 years. The problem non believers have is that 1 degree every 10 or even 100 years has a HUGE impact on what's going on.

I think that the Earth itself is a living organism and has it's own immune responses. I think one day it will respond to us. I'm not hysteric, just practical.....

Edit: But it's also hypocritical for us to have a treaty where the hosting country can't immensely cut down on emissions, but then again, with population growth, is it possible? As for developing countries, if we hold them to a higher standard, it's also hypocritical, however, we should hold them to our own standards, and those standards should not be compromised just because a country is trying to develop. This is not 1940.

UAL

[Edited 2011-05-30 04:53:16]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21634 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Countries eliminate their native nonrenewable biological resources at their own peril.

Unfortunately, environmental damage tends not to confine itself to national borders.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Why are people anti-environmentalist?

Because people dislike the environmentalist stereotype. And not without good reason. But that doesn't mean that sensible environmental policy is a bad idea.

As for Kyoto, it was a decent idea, but it's taken too long to get started to be worth it anymore. It would be more effective to get a whole new agreement together, one that the US can actually take part in this time.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3102 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Shame, but if the US never actually took part in it and the host country also didn't do anything, then it was fairly pointless. Unfortunately, the mentality of "let another one make cuts, I won't do anything" will only come to bite us in the end.

I mean, come on. Who cares if the Amazon is torn down? They're trees that don't mean anything to me. Who cares if coral reefs get bleached out? More beaches for me to enjoy. Who cares if a bird or an amphibian or a reptile goes extinct? They're no use for us anyway.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
As for Kyoto, it was a decent idea, but it's taken too long to get started to be worth it anymore. It would be more effective to get a whole new agreement together, one that the US can actually take part in this time.

And don't forget China, now the number one polluter in the world and growing fast. If China is not willing do handicap itself the same as the rest, then no agreement is better.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Why are people anti-environmentalist?

For the same reason many people are anti-Christian fundamentalist, anti-Islamic fundamentalist and anti-Israeli hardliners.
Environmentalism is a new religion that uses fear tactics and their leaders are a bunch of fraudulent snake-oil salesmen.
They're all cut from the same cloth.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Environmentalism is a new religion that uses fear tactics and their leaders are a bunch of fraudulent snake-oil salesmen.
They're all cut from the same cloth.

Sure. And smoking is good for your lungs as well.

Some ideas take a while from being laughed at, then fought against, then criticized until they finally become completely obvious main stream when basically everybody finally clues up.

Blindly raping and pillaging the natural resources we depend on is completely obviously a very bad idea. And some people switch from being part of the problem to being part of the solution earlier than others. It's the same thing as in most other major changes.

Some people are just blind for the future and need to get dragged towards it, even if kicking and screaming if that's what it takes. That is absolutely nothing new. It's always been that way.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):

Those comments could have came from a Reverend, Rabbi or Imam as well.
I refuse to live in fear.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4305 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 5):
Yeah well, the rainforest non-renewable resource is eliminated at *our* peril, not just their. I don't see any problem with forcing the hand of less developed nations in this regard, they don't seem to appreciate the problem.

So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever?? Andincreasingly, Europe or the USA have less and less power over countries who are accumulating savings and monetary reserves, while the former need more and more debt to stay afloat.

They are cutting the forest for new grazing land for cattle, it's not even so much for farmland, or to build new roads and towns.

The bottom line is rich countries havre no morality or respectable standing on environmental issues. And most developing countries are simply too desperate to increase wealth to care or educate their citizens.

It doesn't help the problem that environmental organizations have become radicalized. They may say they oppose nuclear, coal, and oil, and support wind and solar. But then if someone wants to build one of those they oppose them too because of some local species under threat. Then they'll say they support hydro, but then turn around and oppose that too. Too many of those groups just want to halt all development so people are forced to a much lower living standard.

I'm personally not opposed gently coaxing lifestyle changes through pricing, regulation and education, but not to the tipping point that the poor suffer and the middle class shrinks.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):

Good points raised.

What do you make of this synopsis of the environmentalist origins and goals;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYl4hkFRdTk



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever?? Andincreasingly, Europe or the USA have less and less power over countries who are accumulating savings and monetary reserves, while the former need more and more debt to stay afloat.

Not really addressing that. Stop them from abusing this resource, because it isn't their's to abuse. Be they poor or rich.

One doesn't need to be patronizing towards these nations in order to fix this issue and the abuse of these resources isn't helping them anyway. The land they get for grazing lasts only a short time.

Spare me the western PC guilt trip. This is serious business.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Those comments could have came from a Reverend, Rabbi or Imam as well.

Well, when you're holding your own eyes shut in fear that you could see things that might trouble you, you just can't know the difference between real developments which are clear to see and mere "Religion".

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
I refuse to live in fear.

When I'm looking at a real development that is actually happening in the real world and when I'm trying to help preventing the worst of it, that is a verified and substantiated fear which motivates an active and constructive response.

But when you're just too scared to even look at the real problems, that is just passive denial, leaving the hard work to everybody else around you.

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
So what you are going to do, keep them poor and illiterate for ever??

Since when is destroying their livelihoods a positive way of preventing that?

Indigenous tribes can very well participate in education and some level of modern advantages at their own choosing.

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
The bottom line is rich countries havre no morality or respectable standing on environmental issues.

Just "being rich" qualifies for very little, that is true.

But having been through most of the environmental devastation in our own countries and already having made much of the corrective repairs again, that does indeed qualify us for giving some advice; In most cases this advice will only be effective when cooperating eye-to-eye and when subsidizing at least the initial repairs and corrections.

But actual experience with the issue is just hard to replace.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Well, when you're holding your own eyes shut in fear that you could see things that might trouble you, you just can't know the difference between real developments which are clear to see and mere "Religion".
But when you're just too scared to even look at the real problems, that is just passive denial, leaving the hard work to everybody else around you.

I'm a former treehugger myself. I've done my research and compared to what other scientist have concluded. By the way, the whole premise of climate change is based on junk-science and not all scientist have come to an agreement on this issue.
It's nothing more than a new religion.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21634 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
For the same reason many people are anti-Christian fundamentalist, anti-Islamic fundamentalist and anti-Israeli hardliners.

Nice of you to lump all people with an interest in the environment in with the fundamentalists. That would be like me being anti-Christian because I don't like Fred Phelps.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
That would be like me being anti-Christian because I don't like Fred Phelps.

The environmentalist have more clout than Fred Phelps.
Therefore I consider the environmentalist more dangerous than Fred Phelps.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
No offense, but IIRC from past threads, you own/drive either a V8-powered Mecedes sports car or Land/Range Rover SUV; neither of which are exactly environmentally-friendly vehicles in terms of fuel consumption, carbon footprint and so forth.

Were you aware that had the Kyoto Protocol been enacted; your vehicle and ones like it would have been likely targeted by enviros (can we say Eco-terrorism) ? Many of the Protocol's contents and objectives would've clearly and radically changed/targeted the American way of life or lifestyle; and not just solely in cars and driving. In short, the Kyoto Protocol was basically a dis-mantle-America treaty.

Personally, I'm glad this treaty died.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3298 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
I've done my research and compared to what other scientist have concluded. By the way, the whole premise of climate change is based on junk-science and not all scientist have come to an agreement on this issue.

   How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently?

P.S. Looking forward to Bangkok!

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):

How do you reconcile your interpretation of the science as "junk science" whereas 96-97% of climate scientists see it entirely differently?

30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20):
No offense, but IIRC from past threads, you own/drive either a V8-powered Mecedes sports car or Land/Range Rover SUV; neither of which are exactly environmentally-friendly vehicles in terms of fuel consumption, carbon footprint and so forth.

I guess you didn't get the memo. Cars that are 'cute' and driven by Hollywood elitist are exempt.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

No, they have not. That whole paper is a scam.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
However, there is absolutely no moral ground now for developed countries to ask developing ones like Brazil, Ecuador, Central Africa, Indonesia, etc, to stop cutting down their rainforest.

Yes, there is. We are now smarter than we were back then in the 50s through 70s.
Here's an interesting quote:

Quote:
“The Nobel Laureate Symposium has answered this emergency call from the future: environment and development must go hand in hand. Human pressures are challenging the resilience of the planet, while inequalities remain high. The only way to move towards fair and lasting prosperity for present and future generations is along a pathway of environmental sustainability. The time for procrastination is over. We cannot afford the luxury of denial, ” says Professor Johan Rockström, Symposium chairperson and Executive Director of the Stockholm Resilience Centre and Stockholm Environment Institute (SEI).
http://globalsymposium2011.org/news-and-media/memorandum

[Edited 2011-05-31 16:12:44]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1271 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quote:
30,000+ scientist that have far more education on this matter than me, you and Al Gore and they have all debunked this fraudulent claim of man-made global warming.

With all due respect, you're wrong. There's overwhelming scientific evidence that not only is it real, there's not really very much we can do to stop it even if we all wanted to. The "scientists" who speak out about how "Global Warming is a Hoax" are the very same ones who think Chemtrails are real and who once worked for Tobacco companies to prove that cigarettes weren't harmful to humans in any way.

You don't have to like Al Gore, you don't have to drive a Prius (I don't), you don't have to like it. But the delusion that this is some big hoax and we should all go back to living how people lived in say, 1958 - it's time to give that up, because that's neither reality nor the future.

As far as Kyoto, well, it's hard to be sad about something so ineffective being gone. But I think people "celebrating" the demise of the Kyoto accords are kind of cheering humanity's ability to do absolutely nothing in the face of a serious problem. That's not much to crow about.

[Edited 2011-05-31 16:39:47]

25 Dreadnought : As "junk" as that statistic you just quoted. Source? I consider myself an environmentalist, in that I insist that industry that can cause significant
26 NoUFO : Most publications (IIRC a recent study said ~90%) come from institutions like the Heartland Institute or Cato Institute - the same groups that claime
27 Post contains images Superfly : The Chicago Climate exchange, failed Cap & Trade legislation and the Kyoto Treaty was a scam. That isn't true. I do like Al Gore and I voted for
28 Post contains images Longhornmaniac : Give me a link, because if you're citing what I think you are, that entire thing is a GIGANTIC scam, and wasn't even close to a majority of scientist
29 474218 : The problem with environmentalists is that they have forgotten that the human beings are part of mature. They look at humans as an alien life force b
30 Longhornmaniac : No, we don't forget that. What we do know is that with increasing technology, we have the capacity to change the planet in such a way which no specie
31 Klaus : If you're trying to make this about competence in the respective field, then the only thing that matters is the ratio of actual climatologists suppor
32 windy95 : Comparing apples to oranges. Though land use is a large part of the change in local climates taking oil from the ground has no impact on thousands of
33 Post contains links NoUFO : Here's the form. Could you please help me find the quote you provided? http://www.realclimate.org/docs/survey08.pdf Edit: besides, the consensus of c
34 PlymSpotter : Land management and specifically land use is something which there needs to be a greater understanding of in relation to regional climatic change. Th
35 Longhornmaniac : Umm, what? Doran and Zimmerman 2009 was published in Eos, a peer-reviewed newsletter of the American Geophysical Union, and Anderegg et al. 2010 was
36 Post contains links Dreadnought : The problem is that the survey was in no way scientific. http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf They sent out the questionaires, and 30
37 Longhornmaniac : I've read their methodology many times before, and I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the only people that would respond are people with
38 Post contains links and images windy95 : Still no catostrophic warming.. Sea levels http://www.ozclimatesense.com/2011/0...els-not-behaving-in-line-with.html 900 Peer reviewed studies http://
39 Post contains images Superfly : Nor should we have lawyers telling manufactures how to run their business and tell people what kinds of cars they can & can't buy. I can say the
40 racko : If the amount of time people spent on "research" trying to uncover a giant conspiracy was actually spent on reducing emissions we probably would be fi
41 windy95 : Contrary to the IPCC and others the science is not settled. But as long as scientific funding by governments stays focused on model simulation suppor
42 Post contains links and images Klaus : That's the whole point – it applies to absolutely everybody. The whole point behind science is that its only measure is observable reality and that
43 Superfly : Looks like the Kyoto Treaty is as dead as the Soviet Union. A lot of people hoping to rake in billion$ of dollar$ are crowing over this I'm sure. Will
44 Post contains links and images speedygonzales : You must be incredibly gullible if you believe that.
45 Post contains links windy95 : Another welcome victim of the Kyoto collapse... http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen.../world-bank-failing-carbon-markets With the American exchange a
46 Post contains images Superfly : Now THAT's the kind of 'Hope' and 'Change" I can support!
47 Post contains links and images windy95 : There is no surging upward trend in your graph. It is simply sleight of hand magic tricks. Put the years closer together and the temps farther apart
48 dxing : Are you talking about "man-made" global warming or just global warming in general. I agree that the globe is warming, just as it has done many many t
49 windy95 : They are already ridiculed, removed from positions and censored. Imagine what would of happened to them back in the day.. Let us not forget the alarm
50 Superfly : Another thing I find disturbing is how they attempt to "shut down the debate" on global warming/climate change. As long as we have the 1st. Amendment
51 ZANL188 : I think you underestimate the housefly.... Meanwhile I'm wondering how nations that would shut down their nuclear plants will adjust their lifestyle
52 Post contains links windy95 : And here we see what the AGW global Warming scam is all about. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ INTERVIEW-World Bank to suggest CO2 levy on jet, shipping fuel. "We are
53 Post contains images Superfly : They're a bunch of crooks. In the old days, they were called Snake Oil Salesmen. Should we start calling them Climate Pimps? [Edited 2011-06-05 19:59
54 Post contains images speedygonzales : I always chose facts when given the choice between conspiracy theories and facts, but maybe I'm just weird. The facts are really simple in this case:
55 Post contains links and images windy95 : David Evans consulted full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office (now the Department of Climate Change) from 1999 to 2005, and part-time 2008 to
56 Post contains images Baroque : Oh yes, that is sooo true, just like one volcano emitting more carbon dioxide than man source emissions and Klaus even has a graph that clearly shows
57 Post contains links and images Superfly : What's so funny if we're all gonna die? Obama will stop that from happening. He said he would; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQNkVmdicvA&feature
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