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Help! The Tourists Are Coming! Berlin Fights Back.  
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

As if Tim Clarke hasn't enough on his hands with LH, among others, opposing plans to start services to Berlin, it seems that some locals are opposed to the growing number of tourists to the city. A number of events have been held complaining the locals can't afford to live in Berlin anymore, or that tourists are spoiling things and have no idea what they are looking at. Others complain that all the money that tourists spends ends up in the pockets of private companies rather than the state. They advocate a tax on tourists.

Finance is firmly based in Frankfurt and manufacturing has been flocking to Berlin since the wall came down. Without tourism, what other sources of income are there for residents of Berlin? Has Berlin simply become another city that hates tourists but wants to bleed them of every euro?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...-berlin-residents-protest-tourists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...y/09/berliners-angry-over-tourists

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinewolverine From Germany, joined Aug 2006, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

I know some people, living in Berlin, and I never heard them complain about too many tourists. Berlin has a lot of sights, a lot of history and culture, maybe more than any other german city. So I do understand, that many people want to see Berlin, when travelling to Germany. I think, it's impossible to get rid of the tourists, or to make the city less attractive to them. They should be glad to have so many visitors.


Face your fears, live your dreams! (No Fear)
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Morons. Evidence of a new left-wing conservatism, coupling provincial cluelessness with urban arrogance. Not at all representative of Berlin.

In other words: please do come visit Berlin.   You're very welcome here.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

While I certainly do not agree with the protests and can assure you that this is definitely not the majority opinion in Berlin, not everything is black and white.

One thing that is problematic is definitely the trend to convert regular appartements into short-term rentals for tourists, as this causes two problematic issues: first of all, weekend party tourists are usually pretty loud and know now curfew, so having them in the flat above you every weekend and most oftend uring the weeks as well is difficult to bear. Second thing is that a short-term rental is off the regular housing market and therefore drives up prices artificially.

That being said, I've seen anti-tourist stickers and the like in Amsterdam and Barcelona before.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting Quokka (Thread starter):
manufacturing has been flocking to Berlin since the wall came down.

Quite the contrary. During cold war, West Berlin manufacturing was heavily subsidized to encourage companies and workers to stay and not to move away for political reasons. After the Wall fell, the subsidies stopped from one day to the other and manufacturing moved away. Berlin is now largley an administrative capital, with the majority of employees working for the governments (federal or Berlin state) in one way or another.

Jan


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2425 times:

Quoting wolverine (Reply 1):
maybe more than any other german city

Maybe? I would say definitely, by far.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Relax, we are talking about a minority here (again).


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting wolverine (Reply 1):

I know some people, living in Berlin, and I never heard them complain about too many tourists. Berlin has a lot of sights, a lot of history and culture, maybe more than any other german city. So I do understand, that many people want to see Berlin, when travelling to Germany. I think, it's impossible to get rid of the tourists, or to make the city less attractive to them. They should be glad to have so many visitors.

If you live anyway thats a tourist trap your always going to have issues. I'm in Brighton which always gets packed in the summer which can be annoying but at the same time when you look at other seaside towns in the UK, Brighton is one of the few that is still attracting people and the tourist money goes a long way.

Am off to Berlin next week and hope I won't be one of the nightmare tourists, have always wanted to visit there. Anyone has any tips on things to see and do (especially beyond the main sights) I will be very grateful

Danke


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 7):
Anyone has any tips on things to see and do (especially beyond the main sights) I will be very grateful

Always

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/c8106/12626/6/
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/c8106/12626/4/

Plus, take a day trip to Potsdam (see the castle and the Dutch quarter). And if you are into museums, let me know.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Quite the contrary.

Sorry, that was an error - it was meant to have read " not been flocking..." Not only did the subsidised sector in West Berlin shrink but many concerns in the former DDR simply were unbale to adjust to the new conditions. Hence the question: what alternatives are there?

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 7):
Anyone has any tips on things to see and do

If you are into history, on a trip to Potsdam you could include Cecilienhof. The house, mock Elizabethan and set in pleasant grounds, was built for the Crown Prinz of Germany (son of the last Kaiser) and was the location of the signing of the "Potsdam Agreement" that carved up Germany and Europe after WW2.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9270 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
with the majority of employees working for the governments (federal or Berlin state) in one way or another.

a large portion of Berliners is not working at all. No other city in Germany has that many people living on the expense of those working.

Quoting Quokka (Thread starter):
Has Berlin simply become another city that hates tourists but wants to bleed them of every euro?

Not the whole of Berlin. But especially in Kreuzberg, and that is the "Kiez" where they don't like tourists, the old Nazi/Communist blockward mentality shows up again. Looks like we have a divided city again here, some parts are multi national/ multi cultural and some parts go back to the dark ages of the 2 dictatoirships we had in the last century.

this mentaltity leads to the buring of luxury cars every night Monbday last week there was a terrorist attack on a railway communications center which took 3 or 4 days to fix and the city S-Bahn was severely disrupted.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

And again, what else to expect from the susual suspect:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
a large portion of Berliners is not working at all.

If 13,6% is a large portion, you are of course right. Does that mean that the amount of Berliner's that are working is ridiculously high?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
No other city in Germany has that many people living on the expense of those working.

There are other cities with higher unemployment rates in Germany. And if you're talking about the absolute numbers, your claim becomes even more ridiculous, considering Berlin is Germany's largest city by far.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
this mentaltity leads to the buring of luxury cars every night

While it's true that cars are burning regulary in Berlin, they are neither burned down every night, nor it's only luxury cars. Differentition and detailing are clearly not your particular strengths.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Berlin is now largley an administrative capital, with the majority of employees working for the governments (federal or Berlin state) in one way or another.

Wrong. Educate yourself with this beautiful diagram, which is a little outdated and thus does not incorporate the current steady economic growth, caused by tourism and creative industries.

Public administration accounted for 10% of employees in Berlin, roughly equaling 150.000 people. Manufacturing accounted for 8% or ~130.000 people, tourism for 6% or ~ 110.000. 31% of eymployees are working for public or private services, but this includes the more than 150.000 berliners working in the creative industry as well. So, even giving you a head-start and being very generous, not more than 25% of Berliner's are working directly or indirectly in governmental jobs. Last time I've checked my math, this is _not_ the majority.

And yet again this thread shows the unbelievable amount of predjudices that are going on in the minds of quite a few inhabitants of provincial german towns. And they say Berliner's are loudmouths...  


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9270 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 11):
And again, what else to expect from the susual suspect:

so so, I am a suspect? Subjects like me belong in jail, right?



Quoting dazeflight (Reply 11):
f 13,6% is a large portion,

It certainly is and no other state reaches that figure, which was BTW in December 2009 16,6%. In comparison Bavaria had 3,7 % in that month.

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 11):
There are other cities with higher unemployment rates in German

Not even Bremerhaven reaches that percentage point. Berlin is top ranking by all means, except may be some smaller places in MeckPomm. That can go hardly to the pride of Berlin..

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 11):
While it's true that cars are burning regulary in Berlin, they are neither burned down every night, nor it's only luxury

so you find that OK? Not so serious, right? I was in berlin last Monday and reading in the local press about what happened over the weekend. If not every day, then at least every other day. The terrorists who burn the cars may have another definition of "luxury" , for them whatever has a motor and 4 wheels is luxury, sure. An Audi A4 or A6 may not be luxury compared to an A7 , my A6 is a working tool, but is defined by stand point.

No, mate, we don't have prejudices. Berlin is filthy in many parts, it's dangerous in many ways which it was not in the 80s and before. The fact that other European capitals are even filthier and I just decided on my last visit to Paris (excuse moi, cher amis) not to use the RER anymore from CDG is no excuse for Berlin. I was lucky the S-Bahn was at least shuttling on the core line.on that Monday.

Berlin stinks and that is from the head downwards.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
so so, I am a suspect? Subjects like me belong in jail, right?

Spare your tears. If there's any thread slightly touching a Berlin-related issue, you're after it like a stalking teenage girl.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
It certainly is and no other state reaches that figure, which was BTW in December 2009 16,6%. In comparison Bavaria had 3,7 % in that month.

13.6 % is last months figure and only shows that the economic growth in Berlin is having a substancial influence on unemployment rates. Thanks for the comparison.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Not even Bremerhaven reaches that percentage point. Berlin is top ranking by all means, except may be some smaller places in MeckPomm. That can go hardly to the pride of Berlin..

Gelsenkirchen has ~14%, Dortmund has ~13%, Leipzig has ~13%, Cities like Bremen and Hannover have around 10%. So, while these numbers are nothing to be particulary proud of (even tough it is fueled by the weak provincial surroundings of Berlin, especially compared to cities like Munich or Stuttgart), the question remains how your argument is particulary relevant for Berlin if other cities have similar "large portions" of people out of work?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
so you find that OK? Not so serious, right? I was in berlin last Monday and reading in the local press about what happened over the weekend. If not every day, then at least every other day.

You missed my point and decided to read something into it instead. Cars have been burning in Berlin in 2011 at around 20 occasions, with a total number of 50 burned. Neither do I cheer to those numbers nor do I support them but the point is that your claim that "every day luxury cars are buring in Berlin" is simply untrue. You simply choose to word it like that show how evil that hatred city of yours is.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
An Audi A4 or A6 may not be luxury compared to an A7 , my A6 is a working tool, but is defined by stand point.

I was referring to the fact that quite a few of those mentioned 50 cars burned have been trucks and vans owned by Deutsche Bahn, Bundeswehr and the like. Those are not "luxury cars" in my book.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
No, mate, we don't have prejudices. Berlin is filthy in many parts, it's dangerous in many ways which it was not in the 80s and before. The fact that other European capitals are even filthier and I just decided on my last visit to Paris (excuse moi, cher amis) not to use the RER anymore from CDG is no excuse for Berlin. I was lucky the S-Bahn was at least shuttling on the core line.on that Monday.

Berlin stinks and that is from the head downwards.

That rant clearly fits into the picture of someone who just hates the city and the fact that it's not as right-wind as he'd like it to be, trying to hide his bias behind flawed arguments. Why don't you just sell your oh-so-unprofitable Berlin apartement and spare the city your visits if you're on such loggerheads with it?

[Edited 2011-05-31 05:48:30]

User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Quoting dazeflight (Reply 13):

Freunde, bitte. There's no need to do "das HB-Männchen" .

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
attack on a railway communications center which took 3 or 4 days to fix and the city S-Bahn was severely disrupted.
Quoting dazeflight (Reply 13):
quite a few of those mentioned 50 cars burned have been trucks and vans owned by Deutsche Bahn, Bundeswehr and the like.

This is alarming. What is the objective here? What possible gain can they expect to make from attacks on essential infrastructure that disrupts ordinary Berliners?


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):
What possible gain can they expect to make from attacks on essential infrastructure that disrupts ordinary Berliners?

Perhaps/Probably they didn't mean to - which in turn does not mean I had sympathies for those groups.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
Perhaps/Probably they didn't mean to

Which makes the attacks odd if they are "terrorist" attacks. Terrorists usually intend to cause fear and disruption for some stated aim. Perhaps the people who are doing the damage are no more than bored youth who don't know how to better use their time. Perhaps a more destructive form of those miscreants who daub other peoples property with graffiti.

While unemployment (or underemployment) may cause disillusionment and alienation from society, it is difficult to see what is gained other than a brief period of "Schadenfreude" or mislead belief that they are striking back.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9270 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 13):
That rant clearly fits into the picture of someone who just hates the city

This is BS, I like Berlin, i even own a condo there and my tenant pays the rent every month. But since we are still a free society with free speech i reserve the right to make some nasty remarks once in a while. fact is that berlin still cannot sustain itself and does not even show efforts to do so. They are in good company with Bremen which lives on the expsnes of the rest of the federal republic since 60 years.

That does not prevent me from going there at least once year to enjoy the Gruenkohlfahrt. (For the English speaking, yes, the last part of the word is a direct result of eating curly kale).  
Quoting dazeflight (Reply 13):
pare your tears. If there's any thread slightly touching a Berlin-related issue

tears of laughing about that place, may be and, c'mon, I take a rain check more than once.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Which makes the attacks odd if they are "terrorist" attacks. Terrorists usually intend to cause fear and disruption for some stated aim. P

They are not as harmless as it may sound. What happened in Berlin Monday last week was intended and purposely so that the result and disruption of ordinary peoples life took place. Politics should treat them seriously. Left wing extremists are as dangerous if not more than right wing extremists. The result is the same anyhow.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinenonrevman From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1297 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting Quokka (Thread starter):
As if Tim Clarke hasn't enough on his hands with LH, among others, opposing plans to start services to Berlin, it seems that some locals are opposed to the growing number of tourists to the city. A number of events have been held complaining the locals can't afford to live in Berlin anymore, or that tourists are spoiling things and have no idea what they are looking at. Others complain that all the money that tourists spends ends up in the pockets of private companies rather than the state. They advocate a tax on tourists.

I have to ask: How exactly do you tax a tourist? Or more importantly, how exactly do you identify a "tourist" from someone who is there on business, or visiting a relative,etc? If I try to take a photo of the Brandenburg Gate, does a tourist police officer fine (tax) me on the spot? Does everyone visiting Berlin have to prove they are not there for touring in order not to pay the special tax? How would you isolate tourists from everyone else? It sounds really complicated.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Quoting nonrevman (Reply 18):
I have to ask: How exactly do you tax a tourist?

Some countries and/or States have imposed a special bed tax, room tax or hotel tax over and above GST or VAT in order to raise extra revenue from tourists. For people who are genuine business visitors the tax can usually be reclaimed or rebated in some way as a legitimate business expense.

Other countries allow discriminary rates of admission to museums and historical sites so that tourists pay a higher entrance fee than locals.

[Edited 2011-05-31 21:04:24]

User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
Other countries allow discriminary rates of admission to museums and historical sites so that tourists pay a higher entrance fee than locals.

On Tybee Island, Georgia, residents of the island get a window sticker for their cars that exempts them from parking fees (both in public lots and at parking meters) on the island. Residents of nearby cities (Wilmington Island, Thunderbolt, Savannah, etc.) can also buy the parking stickers for around $50 a year if I recall correctly. From what I understand, this is a common practice in tourist areas up and down the East coast of the US.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

Quoting nonrevman (Reply 18):
I have to ask: How exactly do you tax a tourist?

Well, in Berlin-Mitte it's the guys who are blocking the tiny sidewalks by standing in the way of everyone else  

Regarding the tax, this is something that has and is been done in lots of other tourist cities as well - it's just a fee that's added to every hotel or hostel bill.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
Other countries allow discriminary rates of admission to museums and historical sites so that tourists pay a higher entrance fee than locals.

I'd absolutely be against that as it leaves everyone paying the higher fee behind with that "I'm second class"-feeling. Russia is very good in that and I'd definitely advise Berlin not to do anything the like.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
They are not as harmless as it may sound. What happened in Berlin Monday last week was intended and purposely so that the result and disruption of ordinary peoples life took place. Politics should treat them seriously.

While I certainly do not endorse those actions, it's pretty revealing that you don't feel ashamed to put the disruption of people's daily schedule by burning cables and thus merely being annoying in the same league with spreading fear for life and death. But that's nothing new considering your general approach to adjust facts to your agenda. None of your claims within this thread withstand a closer look. I would expect people in your age to be a little more whise and a little less biased.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Left wing extremists are as dangerous if not more than right wing extremists. The result is the same anyhow.

Seems I was right with my presumption that Berlin is just too alternative for you and does not fit into your conservative if not right-wing approach to life. How many people have been killed by fascists and how many by left wing extremists during the past 20 years? The answers should be pretty obvious.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 9):
Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 7):
Anyone has any tips on things to see and do

If you are into history, on a trip to Potsdam you could include Cecilienhof. The house, mock Elizabethan and set in pleasant grounds, was built for the Crown Prinz of Germany (son of the last Kaiser) and was the location of the signing of the "Potsdam Agreement" that carved up Germany and Europe after WW2.

Thanks, am definately going to visit Potsdam, lots of sights there. Vielen Danke!


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1832 times:
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Berlin is great. I have always been made to feel welcome, and those I know living there have never indicated any problem with tourists.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9270 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1810 times:

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 21):
How many people have been killed by fascists and how many by left wing extremists during the past 20 years? The answers should be pretty obvious.

They are the same breed, so what's the difference between red-brown and brown-red? None.

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 21):
Well, in Berlin-Mitte it's the guys who are blocking the tiny sidewalks by standing in the way of everyone else

Same as in NY, Tourists are those who are blocking other pedestrians from walking at their usual pace.

But what would Berlin be without toruists and the money they spend in that run down city?'So, dear Berliners, please treat this species with care, be friendly and hand out leaflets explaining what "friendly" means in Berlinerisch in at least English, Russian, French, and Mandarin.

 

Dear foreign tourists : The Berliners have a special kind of charm , it is called "Prussian" and is a mixture of Captain Klink and Private Schulz. For instance "Wa" is a form of acknowledgement and added to almost every sentence. Not to be confused with "War", so don't mention it.  

If Kreuzberg is part of your tour, beware, don't confuse the "Kreuzbergers" with a zoo, they are the ones who complained about that in first place, so don't tease them.  



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
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