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Spanish Question: Verb Forms In Argentina  
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1478 times:

I know they are very different than in the other countries in Latin America and Spain for everyday conversation. So that ''tu'' has been completely replaced.

Can somoene explain how this verb shift came about and is there a webpage that explains it? I woudn't know how to google it (I've tried but I'm not totally fluent in Spanish yet), but what I was told is that they have to take an accent because their stress shifts from the regular spanish stress, and several verbs are spelled entirely differently.

Does this verb shift cause confusion amongst other spanish speakers when talking to someone from Argentina or viceversa?

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1472 times:

I've never noticed much of a difference between any form of Spanish within the Americas compared to Spanish elsewhere. Not too sure what you're on about really.

User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1467 times:

Well, one of the first things they teach you is that ''vosotros'' is a form only used in Spain, while ''ustedes'' is the correct form in Latin American Spanish. Thus:

vosotros mirais (plural informal you - Spain)
ustedes miran (plural informal you - Latin America)

To me that's a big difference. I guess for native speakers it isn't but when learning it's something that is a major factor.

They even suggest not to use vosotros in Latin America as you may not be totally understood by some with very basic formal education in Spanish, i.e really remote areas or regions where native languages are also spoken. I was also told that ther was an additional shift in the 2nd person singular in Argentina, but I cannot remember the form used and wanted to learn more about it.


User currently offlineB747_A340 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1453 times:

I am pretty sure you are refering to the "voseo". It is a relic from colonial Spanish. Surprisingly wikipedia has a great article on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo

Cheers!



God, please save me from your followers!
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 2):
Well, one of the first things they teach you is that ''vosotros'' is a form only used in Spain,

Is it though? I've come across a lot of Spaniards and it seems like the younger generations don't even use those older forms anymore. I'd be interested to hear whats the deal with that from our Spanish a.nutters.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
Is it though? I've come across a lot of Spaniards and it seems like the younger generations don't even use those older forms anymore. I'd be interested to hear whats the deal with that from our Spanish a.nutters.

It is still widely in Spain still, I don't think it's really declining in use there. It pretty much is non-existent in Latin America.

As for the question,

Basically in Argentina we use the ''vos'' pronoun when talking to friends and family, informal situations, and amongst young people. I'm not a teacher so I can't really explain it, but if it's regular verbs you would do this: tu hablas - vos hablás (accent on the 'a'), tu comes - vos comés (same thing), tu sales - vos salís (here the vowel changes too).

I was thinking about it and it seems that this vowel change is a bit unpredictable: tu dices - vos decís ... both vowels change!! These strange vowel changes seem to happen with -ir ending verbs. The verb ser is extremely irregular in this form:

vos sos (instead of ''tu eres'').

In most other Spanish speaking countries you MUST use ''tu'' as it is the only accepted form, which is why it is universally taught. In Uruguay or Paraguay you can use both, in a few small places in Ecuador and Central America ''vos'' is also used but ''tu'' is still the official form... In Argentina ''vos'' is universally used even in intellectual circles and even the media. That is in fact pretty much unique to Argentina.

Don't worry too much about it, we will understand anyone saying ''tu'' as we learn those forms in formal school anyway. Using it is perfectly fine, but it is true that learning the verb forms of ''vos'' will go a LONG way for people to consider you on the inside. In general, ''tu'' will always keep you as a bit of an outsider. It's like using ''thou'' in English, that's how ''tu'' sounds to our ears in Argentina, just a bit foreign and cold.

But unless you plan a long term stay, it's not necessary to relearn all your verb conjugations. Spanish is rough enough as it is in that  



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6575 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1429 times:
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The language that arrived in America was not Spanish. Nor was it Castillian or "Castellano" Castillian was used in the center of Spain. It didn´t exist as such, yet, in the rest of Spain.

What arrived in America is a mixture of all the dialects of the Spanish Kingdom that were spoken by the people that arrived in Cadiz, to be shipped to America through " El Puerto de Palos", Cádiz is in the Andalucía region close to Seville. So there you have another important mixture. The Andalucian dialect.

A lot of these people were also from Extremadura, as it was one of the most arid and poor regions of Spain. Keep in mind that on average, any poor Spanish soldier of fortune that arrived in Cadiz and wanted to go to America, ended up spending some years in Cadiz, if at all shipped.

Once the ship sailed, it stopped almost invariably in the Canary Islands. Some boarded there too so another dialect to add to the mixture.

So, the ones that made it to America, at least until the 1600´s came speaking a mixure of dialects that later came to be known as Spanish. What remained and evolved in Spain is something else. Castillian, after Spain was finally unified (theoretically at least)

Since then, what arrived in America has evolved differently and separately according to the region in America being populated, combining itself with the local languages there (Nahuatl, Taino, Aymara, Quechua, Mayan) and in some cases, with languages from other Eurpean nations whose population emigrated to America. This happened heavily in Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina and Chile. The Spanish spoken in Argentina, for example, has a very heavy influence of Italian.

The "vos" you hear in Central America and Argentina mostly, comes from an ancient form of adressing an elder or someone accorded respect: "vuestra merced" It is ironic that it evolved into the familiar way to engage someone.

I got all this information from a Spanish friend of mine who is a philologist at the Royal Spanish Academy. Some of the more radical philologists, even say that "Castillian" as such is a dead language, and that what we all speak are regional variations of Spanish.

You won´t have any trouble. The only place I´ve ever had trouble has been Chle, due to their accent. But you get used to it after three days.


User currently offlineB747_A340 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
I was thinking about it and it seems that this vowel change is a bit unpredictable: tu dices - vos decís ... both vowels change!! These strange vowel changes seem to happen with -ir ending verbs. The verb ser is extremely irregular in this form:

vos sos (instead of ''tu eres'').

I am pretty sure if you know the European familiar form (vosotros) the vowel changes actually make sense. After all they are both forms of the same person (one singular, vos, and the other one plural, vosotros).

Decir:
yo digo
tu dices
vos decís
ud./el/ella dice
nosotros decimos
vosotros decís
Uds./ellos/ellas dicen

Vivir:
yo vivo
tu vives
vos vivís
ud./el/ella vive
nosotros vivimos
vosotros vivís
Uds./ellos/ellas viven

Note that the conjucation for both vos and vosotros is similar. In these two cases it is identical but I am pretty sure that this is because they both are in present tense. Either way, the roots and endings are similar.

It even works on irregular verbs,

Ser:
yo soy
tu eres
vos sos (sois in certain dialects)
ud./el/ella es
nosotros somos
vosotros sois
Uds./ellos/ellas son

[Edited 2011-06-02 18:38:53]


God, please save me from your followers!
User currently onlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1393 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 2):
Well, one of the first things they teach you is that ''vosotros'' is a form only used in Spain, while ''ustedes'' is the correct form in Latin American Spanish. Thus:

That's a wide generalization, not always true.

Most dialects of Spanish use tú/vosotros as informal form and usted/ustedes as formal.

Some Andalusian dialects and in the Canaries usted/ustedes is used for both formal and informal addressings.

In Latin America there are dialects that use the Castillian use (tú/vosotros and usted/ustedes), the "ustedeo" (usted being both formal and informal, mostly extinc in LatAm), the "voseo" (vos informal and usted formal) and even some having three layers of formality vos/tú/usted, vos being used only for the closest people.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1356 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 2):
Well, one of the first things they teach you is that ''vosotros'' is a form only used in Spain, while ''ustedes'' is the correct form in Latin American Spanish. Thus:

vosotros mirais (plural informal you - Spain)
ustedes miran (plural informal you - Latin America)

yes, but you'll never be wrong using ustedes, since it is the formal way in Spain, so it's not a bad word  

The main difference in Argentine Spanish is the tu/vos difference. No so much for the use of the word on its own, but of what comes after it. "Tu tienes" becomes "Vos tenés". "Tu escribes" becomes "Vos escribís" and so on.

However, the hardest thing to ge tused to Spanish in Aregentina, particularly in Buenos Aires, is the accent, especially in the use of certain letters. For example, the word "Playa". In general, the "y" is pronounced "ia", but in Argentina its pronouned "sh". Same for words that include the "LL" (Pollo or Lluvia become "Posho", "Shuvia".

This is stronger in Buenos Aires than in the rest of the country, however other parts of Argentina also have their particular strong accents, such as Cordoba (it's impossible to not recognize a Cordobes when you listen to one talk!).



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlinetarheelwings From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1346 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Since then, what arrived in America has evolved differently and separately according to the region in America being populated, combining itself with the local languages there (Nahuatl, Taino, Aymara, Quechua, Mayan) and in some cases, with languages from other Eurpean nations whose population emigrated to America. This happened heavily in Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina and Chile. The Spanish spoken in Argentina, for example, has a very heavy influence of Italian.

?????????????? You make it sound like the Spanish spoken in Latin America is a mixture of Spanish and whatever native language existed at the time.....it is not! The main difference between the Spanish spoken in most South American countries is accent and slang. As far as European inmigration, the main influence has been accent, this is especially true in Argentina with the large Italian colony.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6575 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1341 times:
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Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 10):
?????????????? You make it sound like the Spanish spoken in Latin America is a mixture of Spanish and whatever native language existed at the time.....it is not! The main difference between the Spanish spoken in most South American countries is accent and slang. As far as European inmigration, the main influence has been accent, this is especially true in Argentina with the large Italian colony.

I think my explanation was quite clear. You may of course, choose to believe what you want. But:

1. "The main difference between the Spanish spoken in most South American countries is accent and slang."

No.

Verb tenses, both in how they are used and the number of them varies.
Vocabulary can be completely different in a huge amount of words.
Manners for addressing people are multiple.

And as I said before, the main influence of european immigration has not only been in Argentina.

Good luck going from Mexico to Colombia expecting just "differences in accent and slang." Or to Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Perú, and even Nicaragua.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
For example, the word "Playa". In general, the "y" is pronounced "ia", but in Argentina its pronouned "sh". Same for words that include the "LL" (Pollo or Lluvia become "Posho", "Shuvia".

Not in Mendoza, it's 100% ''iuvia''. Hear the man in this news report, he says ''eios'', ''ensaien'', ''detaies''...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2HtXRzExRY

Thing is in Mendoza there is a huge transplant population from Buenos Aires, so you will hear ''sh'' in the street, but it's not realoly the local form.

BTW, does Vesre count as a dialectal difference or is it considered just a novelty (albeit long lasting)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesre



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1286 times:

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Does this verb shift cause confusion amongst other spanish speakers when talking to someone from Argentina or viceversa?

Short answer. No.

I don't think you need to worry too much about it. When the time comes, and you are an advanced speaker, you WILL understand all formal varieties. As with any other major language, you'll find that the more educated the people, the more neutral their speech.

Yes, an Ecuadorian laborer might have problems communicating with a Spanish farmer, as an Scot and Indian would. (Dare I say, the gap might be smaller in the former case) But you don't really have to worry about anything else than striving for a crystal clear academic variety to make yourself understood in some way or another.


User currently offlinetarheelwings From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Good luck going from Mexico to Colombia expecting just "differences in accent and slang." Or to Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Perú, and even Nicaragua.

Been there, done that....as someone who has been fortunate enough to travel and live throughout South America I know what I'm talking about.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 13):
I don't think you need to worry too much about it. When the time comes, and you are an advanced speaker, you WILL understand all formal varieties. As with any other major language, you'll find that the more educated the people, the more neutral their speech.

        


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