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Dutch Courts: Geert Wilders Acquitted  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13883331

Excellent news.

[Edited 2011-06-23 05:55:48]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40031 posts, RR: 74
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.

  
Glad to see some sanity being restored in an E.U. nation.
Geert Wilders has my support and I'm glad he was acquitted. It's a shame that he had to stand trail in the first place.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2337 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.

Glad to see some sanity being restored in an E.U. nation.

     

Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this. Freedom of expression should prevail everything else, even decency and religion.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2696 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2308 times:

Excellent news.
I might find his views a bit strong at times, but he certainly should be allowed to say what a lot of people are thinking.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2297 times:

A victory for individual liberty!

And, bear in mind, the fight ahead will be long and grueling. What he said was correct. People need to start defending freedom of speech and liberty and fight to defend the West.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 2):
Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this.

Agreed. Further to this, he should not have been banned from the UK.

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
what a lot of people are thinking.

Enlighten me. What are a lot of people thinking?

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
People need to start defending freedom of speech and liberty and fight to defend the West.

From who? Zee Germans? The Reds?


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 5):

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
what a lot of people are thinking.

Enlighten me. What are a lot of people thinking?

A lot of Dutch people fear Islam. Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me. If I move to Morocco I wil adhere to their laws, I will not try to bring my own set of laws.

Now I live in one of the neighbourhoods in Amsterdam (and the Netherlands for that matter) with the highest concentration of Moroccan muslims and I partially agree. A lot of these people despise Western values, the parents don't talk Dutch (or English) and a lot of them teach their children our morals are depicable and we are in fact pigs. (and that's quite the insult coming from a muslim).

Also crime numbers clearly show that Moroccan youth (which are almost all Muslim) account for a large chunck of crime in the large cities. A fact that I can personally confirm. This is all in Wilders favor of course.

Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

The fact that Wilders is heavily protected makes his own point IMHO. And to answer your question; yes he is saying what a lot of people are thinking concerning Islam. And of course he should be able to voice these thoughts.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 5):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 2):
Although I don't support his political views I am very happy with this.

Agreed. Further to this, he should not have been banned from the UK.

            that was indeed a disgrace



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):

Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

And therein lies the problem. For many years, we have been told that radical islam only represents a tiny minority of Muslims. But in recent polls in the UK, some 30-40% of muslims say that they agree with the idea of violent jihad, and would like to see Sharia law imposed in their country. Ask the same question in Pakistan and other muslim countries those percentages go even higher. Sorry, but anyone who supports those beliefs IS a radical, and a danger to civilized society.

They may be minorities, but there is nothing "tiny" about it. Wilders' point is that this is not some radical offshoot of Islam that obeys rules and laws that are not in the Quran, but that the Quran actually explicitly orders such radicalism. I don't pretend to be an authority, but from what I have read of the Quran and from my understanding of the order in which it was written and the Islamic law of Abrogation, I think Wilders is probably right.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
A lot of Dutch people fear Islam.

The fear is generally fueled by ignorance.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me.

In the UK, it is not unusual for muslim, jewish, sikh, hindu or any other community to settle civil disputes via religious/cultural code. This is permitted within the realms of English law. I have little issue with this.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
If I move to Morocco I wil adhere to their laws, I will not try to bring my own set of laws.

Absolutely. Law of the land takes priority. However, if the mechanisms exist (as above) and are limited to civil not criminal cases then there should be no issue.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
A lot of these people despise Western values, the parents don't talk Dutch (or English) and a lot of them teach their children our morals are depicable and we are in fact pigs. (and that's quite the insult coming from a muslim).

Also crime numbers clearly show that Moroccan youth (which are almost all Muslim) account for a large chunck of crime in the large cities. A fact that I can personally confirm.

This is an issue for most of Western Europe. Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration. Many cities will have ghettos that are composed solely of immigrants. They'll have their own schools, shops, GPs, hospitals etc. A piece of "home" in a foreign land. Of course this just feeds the cycle.

In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
I think a few Muslims think that way, most of them just wanna live out their lives. But I do think the small radical part is really dangerous for our society (one just has to look at the carnage in NYC, Spain, UK, etc).

Communities and politicians need to do more to encourage mixing and integration. Following the race riots in the UK, a whole new grass roots approach was needed. Baby steps at first such as inter-city football leagues (sports fantastic for breaking down barriers). This was soon taken to the next step with new school academies that were more mixed. Of course, for any lasting effect, this has to be sustained for many years before you see the results.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

He's right. We're after your women!  


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Excellent news.



It is good news , now if he can keep his head attached and not get his throat slashed he should be fine !.

Interesting article ... I agree with him and I have felt the same way when in Muslim countries. Its always someone else's fault ... just like libs.!

http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php...tion=com_content&task=view&id=1702



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2202 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't

Absolutely!! A lot of Dutch, including myself, have loud opinions about certain aspects of American society but if there's one thing we should take a lesson from it is the way Americans handle immigrants.

You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

In the Netherlands during the 60s, 70s and 80s we made government brochures in every imaginable language, people didn't have to learn the language and few did. Now we have 3rd generations immigrants that at home live in their own little culture. Parents don't speak Dutch, so parent-teacher meetings are almost impossible and if the police visits the son usually translates. The son is often the problem so you can guess how that pans out.

It's our own fault and Wilders almost seems like a logical result of the discontent about the our own failed immigration policies. Like I said, I don't share a lot of his views, but he should have complete freedom to express them. Unless they directly call for violence or hate.

[Edited 2011-06-23 10:16:13]


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Also there is talk of Sharia law being used in disputes between immigrants, a very bad development if you ask me.

In the UK, it is not unusual for muslim, jewish, sikh, hindu or any other community to settle civil disputes via religious/cultural code. This is permitted within the realms of English law. I have little issue with this.
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Absolutely. Law of the land takes priority. However, if the mechanisms exist (as above) and are limited to civil not criminal cases then there should be no issue.

Well if you can settle a neighbour dispute without going to court and not in violation of the law, than I guess it isn't a big deal. But I was thinking more about cases concerning marriage, divorce and custody. Although I'm no law or sharia expert I had the impression that these would also fall under sharia (or jewish, etc)

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
Wilders claims Islam in general has one goal and one goal only: world domination.

He's right. We're after your women!  

Damn, I knew it!!  



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 11):
You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

Actually no, nobody forces a newcomer to learn English in the US. You can get every document in most languages and if you can get a job where they don't require you to speak English, you are set.

As for the American melting pot, I see the same thing I see in Europe regarding different ethnic groups. Each have their own area where they live (not sure if ghetto is appropriate) for the most part, but to think that all racial groups walk hand in hand and celebrate their diversity is just silly. Some do and some don't, just like in Europe.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1656 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 11):
You can keep your culture, believes, whatever. But learn English, respect the law and make sure you get an income.

Actually no, nobody forces a newcomer to learn English in the US. You can get every document in most languages and if you can get a job where they don't require you to speak English, you are set.

If that's the case I stand corrected.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

I think the "salad bowl" metaphor is much closer to the truth than the melting pot. It says that all the groups/ingredients are together and influence one another, but retain their individual characteristics and identities. That stands for integration rather than assimilation.

Anyway, this verdict isn't as much of a victory for freedom of speech as it is one for Geert Wilders and his ideology. It would be great to discuss the religious issues he thrives on, but when he starts off by comparing the holy book of Islam to "Mein Kampf", any opportunity for that is lost. He's just an attention-seeking loudmouth who's discovered an issue that will gain him popularity:

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
I might find his views a bit strong at times, but he certainly should be allowed to say what a lot of people are thinking.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 9):
This is an issue for most of Western Europe. Most countries/communities have done a piss-poor job of integration. Many cities will have ghettos that are composed solely of immigrants. They'll have their own schools, shops, GPs, hospitals etc. A piece of "home" in a foreign land. Of course this just feeds the cycle.

In this regard, our American friends do seem to have a leg up on us. Their melting pot works. Ours doesn't


A hundred (100) years ago you would have been correct. But the United States now has the same problems with immigrants as the Europeans do. They claim to come in search of a better life. Then as soon as they get here try to make their new home just like the one that just left.

.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1894 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2119 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Even though I don't support much of Mr Wilders' thoughts, I'm happy he won the case!

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

I hope the US and the EU can come together and work to solve OUR immigrant problems. There are many similarities, so why not put our heads together? Better than it has been lately, the US criticizing the EU's take and vice versa. Funny how similar our goals are but how much we still bicker


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8713 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

I am sure if Geert Wilders made anti-Semitic or anti-Christian instead of anti-Muslim comments most conservatives would sing a different song and denounce him as a hate monger.

I am glad Wilders got acquitted, any free society should not incarcerate a person for being out spoken on his or her beliefs.

Geert Wilders is no different than many of the Muslim radicals that he denounces and those who threaten Israel's existence, he incites violence and hate like they do and spreads misinformation and out right lies like they do. A rotten Apple by any other name is a rotten apple. You can't fight intolerance with intolerance and win the battle of ideas in the long run and that goes for all hate for the sake of hate mongers everywhere. If you want to win the war of ideas you have to be bigger than they are and not play to their level.

[Edited 2011-06-23 12:50:56]


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I hope the US and the EU can come together and work to solve OUR immigrant problems. There are many similarities, so why not put our heads together? Better than it has been lately, the US criticizing the EU's take and vice versa. Funny how similar our goals are but how much we still bicker


The solution is simple "enforce the laws that are all ready on the books"!

If you are in the country illegally you should be sent back. It works in the US in works in the EU.

Every country should (MUST) be allowed to establish its own boarders and control who enters.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 20):

In theory, yes, but you see how it really is. My main point was cooperation, how many threads bashing the US's immigration have we seen, now the EU is having similar problems. Just like the Dems and Reps should work together more, I think the US and EU should instead of this strange hatred we seem to be forming for each other. Kumbaya, I know lol



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

I find it interesting that in Europe, that they have a number of laws restricting speech that cannot be in the USA. The only real rule in the USA is if you encourage or threaten acts of violence at to a particular group of people due to their gender preference, faith, ethnicity, skin color, legal status in the USA or against the President or top government officials. We have by some measures, 1000 or more 'hate groups', and millions with strong views as to certain others, but that is tolerated to some extent (as often noted here, like with the Phelps family Westboro Baptist Church group protesting at funerals of military persons).

Of course in Europe, they have good reason to temper speech, especially that supporting Nazism, but at times, they do things that from a USA view find foolish, wrong or even hypocritical. In France, they want to restrict or ban the wearing of the 'burka' for Muslim women or of a Christian cross on a necklace if work in a government office. In Germany, especially in Bavaria, they have Christian crosses in public schoolrooms but also have tried to keep out Scientology as a faith group.

The best thing to do with hate speechers like Wilders and the like is to ignore them, get the media to ignore them or only show them in the worst way.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1956 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):

Things do run differently across the Atlantic. But, the US also has laws that Europeans find weird. What I always found weird was hate crimes and how one-sided they are. If the perpetrator is white and the victim part of a minority, it is automatically a hate crime, if its the other way around it is not. Does this mean that it is made out of "love" if it is the other way around or that members of minorities are never taken over by racism/prejudice against other groups?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
In France, they want to restrict or ban the wearing of the 'burka' for Muslim women or of a Christian cross on a necklace if work in a government office.

This whole thing started because some new members of our societies started being offended by everything having to do with the local established religions. Due to equality, everything then had to go so as not to give the impression that the state favors a specific religion. The burka is a completely different thing because it involves security and the need in western society to be able to identify someone by any physical characteristic.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1970 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 19):

I am glad Wilders got acquitted, any free society should not incarcerate a person for being out spoken on his or her beliefs.

  

I believe in free speech, and am in that sense "glad" that the principle is upheld. Even jackasses like Wilders need to be protected under this law.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 19):
I am sure if Geert Wilders made anti-Semitic or anti-Christian instead of anti-Muslim comments most conservatives would sing a different song and denounce him as a hate monger.

Exactly. Of course this is true. That's the level on which it bothers me.

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
He's just an attention-seeking loudmouth who's discovered an issue that will gain him popularity:

  



It's people like you what cause unrest!
25 washingtonian : Out of curiosity, what aspects of American culture do you feel so strongly about?
26 Post contains images travelavnut : I must say I think the way freedom of speech is done in the US is really good. Even idiots like the WBC should be able to picket and voice their (som
27 windy95 : Yes it is.. Good post No it is fueled by fact. Yes we are being turned into a third world nation. We do not have a immigrant problem...WE have an ill
28 flyAUA : I must agree! First they let them in and give them all the jobs none of the locals want to have, and then complain that they are not properly integra
29 PanHAM : From who? Zee Germans? The Reds?[/quote] I completely disagree. One can lead a horse to the water but it must drink itself. Most European countries of
30 AGM100 : Maybe so ... but we don't want him sent to jail for it. Their is plenty of voices who Sympathize with Muslims anyway ... they play into the victimiza
31 racko : Name a socialist country in the European Union.
32 travelavnut : Just to be clear; I wasn't comparing denouncing the holocaust with the statements of Wilders, I was illustrating the difference in freedom of speech
33 AGM100 : Well call it what you want ... States with high social spending for the welfare of all. It works until the tax payers stop carrying rocks up the hill
34 Post contains links aloges : It's an unfortunate metaphor because immigrants from southern Europe have often been abused like workhorses, but I'll continue with it for the moment
35 OzGlobal : First of all, I want to say that people are people first, whatever their religion is and nothing can change the intrinsic equality of human dignity. T
36 PanHAM : Of course, I did not even reflect on your posting, just a general remark. Good morning Gutmensch. Germany is a free country and people get paid for t
37 Post contains images aloges : Cute. You don't expect me to continue reading after that, do you? Just read Günter Wallraff's "Ganz unten" for a glimpse into what I mean.
38 PanHAM : Wallraff is a left wing extremist and a racist. I don't read books written by such people. Read what I had to say to your contribution. We don't help
39 aloges : It is of course necessary to take his works with a grain of salt - as with any and all political books - but your description of him says more about
40 PanHAM : So, Aloges, how can we then force immigrants who do not speak our language and have no intention to learn it, to inbtegrate? Would be interesting to h
41 Post contains links Baroque : Try this one: http://womenagainstshariah.blogspot....ows-egyptians-favor-democracy.html Last time I looked Egypt was a dictatorship striving to becom
42 aloges : I would be willing to discuss this with you if you hadn't resorted to name-calling ("Gutmensch", "left-wing extremist" and "racist") and platitudes (
43 PanHAM : It is amazing how you guys always try to put someone who does not parrot the mainstream arguments into a certain corner. Did I say anything about Ger
44 Post contains images aloges : Define "mainstream". Anyway, I must have painted myself into a corner with this: By the way, if I'm supposedly a "Gutmensch" and your views contrast
45 PanHAM : Not at all. good intentions are the opposite of good, as you may have heard. That makes usually losers out of Gutmenschen, because their good intenti
46 aloges : Oh, PanHAM... try as I might, I fear it'll prove impossible to have a conversation on this issue with you that goes beyond stereotypes, platitudes and
47 Aesma : Apparently the trial was really to show the accusers that what he said was legal, which everybody else knew from the start. We had a similar show tria
48 slider : I think this is a rather well thought out statement here. And I don't disagree. Be prepared to be flamed for taking that position, however, as I have
49 PanHAM : You still did not get my point. You are really stubborn. I've been around in the world, lived overseas and I never ever had a problem anywhere, so do
50 N1120A : Geert Wilders is a bigoted, hateful piece of garbage. He should be able to say whatever he wants, just like I did about him.
51 Post contains links Dreadnought : Geert Wilders and those who support him are not the ones who do this sort of thing. Here are those who do, and who he's protesting against (video fro
52 slider : "First they came for the Jews..."
53 Superfly : Oh my goodness, that is HORRIBLE! Why doesn't this get more attention?
54 Post contains links Dreadnought : Further developments: http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism It seems the Dutch are among the first to finally come to th
55 Superfly : "Multiculturalism" isn't a bad idea considering that The Netherlands have had immigrants from the Caribbean and the Far East that have assimilated we
56 slider : Hallelujah.... One can appreciate diversity without having to adapt their own way of life to accept it. Immigrants ought to assimilate. The Dutch are
57 Post contains images OA412 : Hmm, a report with no actual footage backing up the accusations they are making. In addition, these are apparently children doing this, and it didn't
58 iakobos : "Even though for centuries among us there has not existed something we might call public opinion, on account of our different religions, nonetheless
59 Baroque : Thanks iakobos, a much needed history lesson for us all. First Dutch Elm disease, then the Dutch (economy) disease, now all this. What next. Added in
60 iakobos : (sorry for the self-quoting) Geert Wilders and his case should be used for what they probably are, past the media frenzy: a call for awareness, a cov
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