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Obama Pandering To Gore? 56.2 MPG?  
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/u-conside...hicle-fuel-standard-185157901.html

Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming. This is a campaign move IMO but I mean this is so not in the ball park. 56.2 mpg average? I mean thats not that long a time to have all Priuses out there is it?

I mean I want to see a lot less SUVs out there but this is a bit extreme.

130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

2025 is a long way off. I think it's a worthy engineering goal, but it'll probably be revised downward by either this or future administrations anyway because people will start kvetching.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.   

Non-sequitur about Europe aside, I don't see a huge drawback to the general public from a higher fuel-economy mandate, provided the requisite economies of scale can be achieved for gas-saving technology to make it cheap. Which I think it can. There are so many features on an automobile that we take for granted today that used to be very expensive.


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming. This is a campaign move IMO but I mean this is so not in the ball park. 56.2 mpg average? I mean thats not that long a time to have all Priuses out there is it?

56.2 is not so bad, considering most people (including myself) fill up the tanks once or twice per week (somewhere in the ballpark of $55 per fill up depending on what you drive). It's about time the government started thinking about more fuel efficient vehicles and an emissions standard such as this. After all, most of the conflicts of the last 2 decades have centered around black gold, and the troubles that come with it. You'd think at some point, we would invest more money into research for alternative bio-fuels and more fuel efficient vehicles. This stuff ain't gonna last forever, espicially with the monstrosity of commercialism and industry that has been taking place in China the last few decades. 56.2 mpg by 2025 sounds like a blessing, campaign move or not!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):

Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.

High gas prices in Europe is due to carbon taxing, something that hasn't quite caught on this country. The fact that we're paying the same price at the pump as Europeans, but their gas has an additional tax, means that we're actually paying more on average if you think about it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.

The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8433 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
his goal is to make America like Europe.

That's an assumed goal but aside from the euro bashing I see nothing wrong with increasing the fuel efficiency standards. Motor companies should also be looking for serious alternatives to gasoline in the deep future as gas is finite and it is only going to get more expensive.

[Edited 2011-06-26 20:59:10]


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.
The high gas prices should make Obama happy since it's closer to what people pay for gas in Europe. Afterall, his goal is to make America like Europe.
Wait a minute, there is an election coming up next year, better tap in to those emergency oil reserves.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama and the job he's doing, but I can't see anything wrong with mandating fuel-efficient cars. As our economy is so dependent on oil, it only makes sense that Americans be forced to conserve it as much as possible, since it's quite obvious the free-market isn't doing a very good job at it. Conserve that fuel for transportation methods that need it most, such as aircraft, trucks, ships, etc. That will help prices on virtually everything come down. Fuel conservation should be a no-brainer in a tight economy.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Will this move mean for vehicle safety? Simple physics says to get 56.2 MPG, your vehicle is going to have to be very light. Simple physics also tells us that if you have a very light vehicle and you get in a wreck with one of these current day gas guzzling SUVs, your little car is going to lose. Now this isn't fully true if you have a hybrid, and surely battery and hybrid technology will likely to continue to improve, but even hybrids have their own issues that have to be overcome.

I have no problem with the government offering tax or financial incentives to pursue such propositions, and I'm all for green technology because I do recognize the pumps will eventually run dry, but for them to mandate this is out-of-bounds, IMO.

Quoting Airport (Reply 6):
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama and the job he's doing, but I can't see anything wrong with mandating fuel-efficient cars. As our economy is so dependent on oil, it only makes sense that Americans be forced to conserve it as much as possible, since it's quite obvious the free-market isn't doing a very good job at it. Conserve that fuel for transportation methods that need it most, such as aircraft, trucks, ships, etc. That will help prices on virtually everything come down. Fuel conservation should be a no-brainer in a tight economy.

How about we conserve fuel by not wasting thousands of gallons of oil to fly the AF1 and all the support aircraft to Chicago for the President to appear on episodes of Oprah...


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
56.2 is not so bad

??? The Prius averages probably around 50.0 so in 14 years we need to find a way that the only cars sold get better avg MPG than the Prius.

This isn't even remotely possible.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!

Ever been to a European nation for an extended period (live there)? Especially one of the PIGS (no offense, I hail from and my dad still lives in 'G').

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
High gas prices in Europe is due to carbon taxing, something that hasn't quite caught on this country. The fact that we're paying the same price at the pump as Europeans,

We are not paying the same. In fact, it appears, that most European drivers pay at least twice what we pay. But, look at the blue line...they pay at least 50% in tax on fuel. It seems to me that if you subtract the blue line from the red, everyone would be paying about the same.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...-water-i-and-i-10-a-gallon/238226/

Look, I'm all for higher gas mileage. But, I don't think it's up to the government to set the standard. Let the market do it, just like it did in the 70's. If we are really at or passed 'peak oil' (I doubt it), then the price of gasoline (and all other 'crude oil' products) will rise naturally. Manufacturers will be forced by the consumer to do something about the mileage.

56.2 mpg? What kind of stupid number is that?

Hell, by 2025, we may have a new technology that makes the MPG standards (and the Middle East) obsolete, but I would't hold my breath.

Oh, and yes, President Obama is pandering to the Gore environmentalists. He is losing his base. We can expect to see quite a few public swings to the Left in the next several months.

[Edited 2011-06-26 21:42:44]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

If we lower demand, we decrease price, right?


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.

I would think that the political pitfalls of high gas prices would massively outweigh the benefits of higher MPG standards, even to the most massive of policy wonks.


User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 7):
How about we conserve fuel by not wasting thousands of gallons of oil to fly the AF1 and all the support aircraft to Chicago for the President to appear on episodes of Oprah...

What does that have to do with the subject? And where did I say I agree with what he did? You're focusing on the person delivering the message, not the message itself. I think the ambitious proposal is a sound one. Just because some of the things he's done in office I disagree with, doesn't mean I disagree with all of them.


User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1257 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):

Obama wants high prices as a push to increase MPG standards. If he (or the government) can artificially raise the price of gas, then we, the lemmings, will scream for higher MPG, at the expense of the vehicles we may need or want.

It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 12):
I would think that the political pitfalls of high gas prices would massively outweigh the benefits of higher MPG standards, even to the most massive of policy wonks.

You'd think so, but I don't think he and/or his advisers see it that way.

Remember, they are trying to rally a lack luster base. One of the more vocal and energetic groups from the Left are the environmentalists, who tend to believe that higher prices will lead to less consumption (it does). But, they want governmental interference in the price mechanism...taxation, drilling and refining restrictions, etc. in addition to any of the natural market forces that affect price.

See, he thinks he gets a two-fer. He gets the environmentalists behind him and he gets to tell us that he is pushing Big Auto to save us money by demanding higher MPG.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7038 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Another idiotic from Obama. Just another reason to vote him out of office.

What is wrong with driving more efficient cars, it means it costs you less than driving a landyacht like the one you own.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Ever been to a European nation for an extended period (live there)? Especially one of the PIGS (no offense, I hail from and my dad still lives in 'G').

I do, free healthcare and education is great, I don't see why you would think it isn't.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
it means it costs you less than driving a landyacht like the one you own.

        

Now that is just too funny.



Kidding aside I see bad things in CA when it comes to things like this. My friend has an 87' Porsche he drives on the weekend and trust me it isn't a boat. Yet in perfect working condition it doesn't come close to passing smog.

Priuses are coming.

[Edited 2011-06-27 00:00:03]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
The Euro ain't so bad, the last time I checked, it was kicking USD ass! And don't get me started on Healthcare!

Thanks to Obama, the dollar will continue to slide in value. Speaking of health-care, why wasn't France system used as an example?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 5):
That's an assumed goal but aside from the euro bashing

Umm, I'm Obama-bashing.  
Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR

Can someone tell me what the 'emergency' is to justify the President's stupid actions?



There are a lot of efficient cars on the market and those that want them, buy them. No need to force car manufactures to make more cars than the market desires.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter):
Timing would work with Gore flaming Obama on his weakness on Global warming.

Well we have to make up for Gores size 1,000,000,000 carbon foot print somehow.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

If we lower demand, we decrease price, right?



That might work if the rest of the world didn't use any oil.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.



In total they are releasing 60 million barrels from the strategic reserves. Since the start of the Libyan uprising an estimated 120 million barrels has not found its way to market. You do the math. Prices had already started to fall before this was announced as it is becoming apparent that the summer driving season may well likely be a bust in this country. Good luck with OPEC Mr. President.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39660 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 20):
Good luck with OPEC Mr. President.

Sounds like Obama has been listening to Donald Trump, a lot.

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
Well we have to make up for Gores size 1,000,000,000 carbon foot print somehow.

LOL!  
I think Obama wants to win an Oscar too.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16795 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I don't understand why people think that this move means Obama wants high gas prices.

The less consumers spend on gasoline the more money they have to spend on other items. Which is good for the economy, I don't see why Conservatives do not embrace this idea. Less money in the Saudi, Venezuelan, Nigerian Government pockets and more money in the pockets of American consumers.

Makes sense to me.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5651 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
If we are really at or passed 'peak oil' (I doubt it), then the price of gasoline (and all other 'crude oil' products) will rise naturally.

Isn't that a bit too late? I don't see it as a left vs right issue rather a strategic and security one. What is so difficult to understand that a gallon less spend means a dollar less in Saudi pocket and hopefullty a dollar less available to fund Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaida, etc. Isn't this a more pressing issue than a twisted "freedom" to waste precious oil just because my penis size issues?


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Airport (Reply 13):
What does that have to do with the subject? And where did I say I agree with what he did? You're focusing on the person delivering the message, not the message itself. I think the ambitious proposal is a sound one. Just because some of the things he's done in office I disagree with, doesn't mean I disagree with all of them.

It's all political. They always go back to AF1 and the amount of money spent to fly the President around, like he's the only President in history to fly to places around the world on AF1  
Quoting dxing (Reply 20):
That might work if the rest of the world didn't use any oil.

If the rest of the world sees us take the lead, and sees the decrease on our dependence for foreign oil, then you don't think they might try the same thing? It's a copy cat mentality we live in after WWII, Countries try to duplicate our success as much as possible.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
There are a lot of efficient cars on the market and those that want them, buy them. No need to force car manufactures to make more cars than the market desires.

Efficient, but extremely expensive. All these hybrids that get 30,40,or 50 MPG cost more than your standard car because of the amount of money they save you in the future. If most if not all cars got the same 56.2 MPG, it would be back to a level playing field.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 14):
It's interesting to note that this very week, the Obama administration decided to lower gas prices by tapping the SPR and working with OPEC to raise production.

Funny how they never point out the truth ehh?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
25 Superfly : Not all efficient cars are hybrids. Volkswagen TDIs sold on the US market get phenomenal mileage and in many cases, better than a hybrid. Fuel effici
26 Post contains links and images Aaron747 : I don't understand at all why this is extreme...it's already being done over in this neck of the woods. Our 2008 Toyota crossover weighs 3400 lbs, se
27 airtran737 : He can kiss my @ss with that one. I quite enjoy my 8.3L Viper V-10 that gets 9 mpg city and 12.4 on the freeway.
28 NIKV69 : Great but it has to get 60 mpg highway to even come close to Obama's plan.
29 Aaron747 : You're talking 2025 though. The engineers here keep squeezing every ounce they can out of internal combustion engines and then some. They take it rig
30 Post contains images PHLBOS : Actually, the bill to establish the original CAFE standards and timetable milestones/mandates was signed into law in 1975 and first took effect for t
31 Newark727 : 1.6L Honda Fit. Not getting great milage out of it at the moment though, think I need new tires.
32 dxing : Again, if no one else used oil then this idea might make sense. Since they do, and are actually using more and more of it every year, the price will
33 futurepilot16 : 2003 nissan maxima, V6 engine
34 KiwiRob : Most people who drive small sporty performance cars don't use them as daily drivers, they tend to be weekend cars, so there impact is fairly minimal.
35 NIKV69 : No matter what you do it's not practical. It's an insane # designed to pacify Gore and gain points with moveon.org. You want to say that every new ca
36 AGM100 : And in ObamaGore world ..... we little people just don't deserve a weekend car. Just think of the poor who don't even have a car ...and you need a ex
37 Post contains links and images PHLBOS : Very well, but even with a new 2011 model in prestine condition; the fuel economy ratings (engine listed is a 1.5L, is that 1.6L listing a typo?) ran
38 futurepilot16 : So you're saying we shouldn't try and overachieve? What's stopping us? The technology is there, we just need policy to mandate the automakers to prod
39 Aaron747 : FYI it snows a fair bit here, they had the Winter Olympics and all. I guess the early morning salt cats on the roads are enough.
40 fr8mech : Assuming the technology is there, and I don't think it is, the manufacturers will do it when the consumer demands it. It's really that simple. Ask yo
41 Newark727 : I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes my Fit would be considered a gas guzzler. But so would many cars made fourteen years ago, if
42 PHLBOS : Wrong. Many of the small cars on the market today actually get LOWER mileage ratings than their predecessors of the 80s and even early 90s. The reaso
43 TOMMY767 : I think part of the issue is that we have bigger fish to fry than setting the MPG standard at 56.2 -- like fixing the unemployment rate which is stuck
44 Klaus : No, it's actually not. Very many features of modern cars have been introduced to meet regulatory demands and to evade liability risks (again going ba
45 Klaus : Actually being able to develop and to manufacture competitive cars domestically is a major boon to the job market. Bailing out the US car industry ha
46 DocLightning : Do you know how much energy in an internal combustion engine is lost to heat? The rest of the world uses a lot less than we do per capita.
47 futurepilot16 : Thank you for letting them know. People only sit down and bitch about the unemployment rate, but can't come up with any real solutions. Green energy
48 Post contains images fruitbat : I don't get the problem. All you need to do is drive BMW diesels: X3 3.0d Auto - 47mpg X3 2.0d Auto - 50mpg 3-series 3.0d Auto Touring - 45 mpg 5-seri
49 AGM100 : The technology is not "there"... it is not. You want to live in a country where federal mandates drive markets ?. What happens when they mandate the
50 PHLBOS : At least half of the states have laws in effect that essentially outlaw the sale of most new diesel powered-cars per CARB. If more diesels were allow
51 Post contains images fruitbat : Sorry, I guess I went all liberal socialist European there for a moment, accepted what's being asked for and tried to look for a solution and run awa
52 NIKV69 : Not at all but lets shoot for something more realistic. You really believe that by 2025 people will only buy cars smaller than a Prius? It's not even
53 greaser : I would argue that the free market won't affect change quickly enough because the auto industry is slow to respond to changing market conditions. It'
54 KiwiRob : It is there, it's just that you lot don't want to drive them, the only way to get you guys out of your big cars is to change the law and I'm all for
55 dazbo5 : The Prius isn't as fuel effeciant as Toyota make out. I had one on test for 5 days and even with around 50% mororway driving, I still struggled to ge
56 fr8mech : I would argue that developing/adding features to avoid liability issues, is the manufacturer responding to consumer demands or expectations. Yes, aut
57 Aaron747 : I won't say much beyond this, but suffice to say Toyota has a company-wide gag order on all employees involved in the Prius program. There is so much
58 tugger : The key things limiting current fuel efficiency are engines operating temperatures (due to the materials the engines are made from - aluminum and ste
59 4holer : Then why not make the mandate 256.2 MPG? That'll really get the innovations flowing? Create an incentive to improve fleet fuel economy. But pulling s
60 tugger : While I understand and agree that creating an incentive for improving fuel economy is likely a better idea (no tax on any vehicle that gets over 50mp
61 4holer : We went to the moon because the law said we were required to? That's not the way I remember it. Goals and mandates are 2 very different things.
62 Post contains links tugger : Funny you mention that one.... No, we went to the moon becasue a president "mandated" it. He made it a goal, a requirement that the nation had to mee
63 cws818 : Shocking that you would think so. Truly, absolutely, profoundly shocking. Except they OBVIOUSLY do not. Why else would he release barrels of oil from
64 Post contains links and images Superfly : Don't tell those wealthy enviornmentalist that. You're gonna burst their happy bubble, Yes we can! You can at least buy a vehicle that is already ava
65 cws818 : While you were not addressing me with that comment, I feel compelled to respond. I believe that is fairly obvious that the vast majority of posts on
66 MAH4546 : The government has no busiess mandating fuel economy nor what people can drive. The free market will decide that. Thankfully Obama won't be president
67 Post contains links and images Superfly : Missed your previous post becuase I was typing. It's amazing what sinking approval ratings can do. http://lufkindailynews.com/opinion/e...6-a0fc-11e0
68 KiwiRob : My wife drives a Volvo V70 2.4D it'll do 5.9 litres per 100km it's a big car, plenty of space and I'd say a much better vehicle than your Ford Flex.
69 Post contains links fr8mech : So, what else are they for? Read this. It pretty much explains the function of the US government. Anything else is overstepping and an intrusion. Tha
70 Post contains links PHLBOS : From your list, let's see what the EPA numbers are for the models that are actually sold and available in the U.S. Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov
71 AGM100 : Fair enough ... I spend enough time in EU , I have driven the diesels and they are good cars. The last one I drove was a Vauxhall Astra of some type
72 Post contains images JJJ : The Mini One is the entry level mini, with a normally aspirated 1.4. The 60 mpg figure is probably the Mini One D (diesel). In any case, and regardin
73 sccutler : How about this?
74 PHLBOS : What part of California Air Resources Board (CARB) do you NOT understand? Nearly half the states (25) adopted CARB which essentially restricts or out
75 n229nw : Personally, I think that a better solution than regulating would be high fuel taxing. Unfortunately, no first term president can do that. Sad. So, giv
76 Superfly : Wrong. Air bags, ABS, fuel-injection and other safety features has been around for over 35 years on some high-end models as a selling point over thei
77 Post contains links and images PHLBOS : Darn right, you should be taking the train. Not that I'm defending Nader here but the big change regarding seatbelts in the 60s was that they went fr
78 n229nw : Yeah, yeah I know...I set myself up for that one... I'll find a place for it on my mantel....
79 Post contains images Klaus : Hybrid cars are not universally more efficient due to some magic pixie dust. They can be more efficient under very specific circumstances – and hig
80 Post contains links san747 : Why? The United States government AND private entities in this country have accomplished much more difficult engineering feats than that with nothing
81 seb146 : I know the right-wing lives in a dream world where oil is unlimited, but everyone else is realistic. Oil WILL run out. What is wrong with advancing to
82 san747 : Because it means having to make decisions and take personal responsibility over how you use valuable resources like gas, which bothers many conservat
83 DocLightning : What exactly do you think they promised? Mine gets about 50 MPG on the freeway, which is just about what they advertised. That is THE HIGHEST MPG of
84 MAH4546 : Modern diesel engines available widely throughout Europe will easily meet CARB. Americans simply don't want diesels. That's what the free market says
85 Superfly : Really? Ever heard of the Concorde and Tu-144? The technology IS there and has been around since the 1960s. Well duh, of course. However it wouldn't
86 NIKV69 : Bull, I would love to see a more fuel efficient car I am just not going to jump on this bandwagon when it's basically impossible to have all cars sol
87 san747 : Fine, 56 average may be ambitious in 14 years. I am honestly not incredibly informed on this subject (I'm not into cars as much as most guys, though
88 Post contains links and images KaiGywer : Although not car technology, it is how most modern locomotives are operated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#Diesel-electric
89 DocLightning : Wrong. Hybrid cars are more efficient than conventional cars as long as they are operated within their performance envelope. On the freeway, the Priu
90 MAH4546 : A friend of mine typically averages 55MPG on his Jetta TDI wagon. Unfortunately for those marketing diesel cars in the United States, the EPA's testi
91 Post contains images Superfly : ???? You mean like attempt to go off road with a piano strapped on top? The Volkswagen TDI is superior in terms of efficiency on the highway and abou
92 KiwiRob : Airbags came were introduced as an option in 1981 on the W126 S Class. Not the Prius! The young hip urban professionals will be dumping these for the
93 Superfly : Wrong. First introduced on the 1974 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and Ninety Eight Regency.
94 JJJ : I don't care that the US has for ages had an anti-diesel lobby, poor quality fuel, etc., we're talking the future, and rules can (and will have to) b
95 PHLBOS : Not to mention rules that are currently in the books that were passed (though ill-advised) by many state governments. If we were dealing with just a
96 Post contains images Klaus : Concorde could only survive by means of a grandfathered certificate – it would never have been able to win certification nowadays. The TU-144 was a
97 seb146 : With bodies being made lighter and stronger and engines being made more fuel efficiant, I would have to say BS. The Prius has actually gotten bigger
98 Superfly : But the technology is there! But the technology is there! But the technology is there! What you need to realize is that the anti-diesel lobby in the
99 Post contains links PHLBOS : Toyota makes a hybrid version of its Highlander as well. Here are the latest EPA figures (2011) for the Toyota and Lexus Hybrid SUVs that you speak o
100 NIKV69 : I drive a car that averages that under the best conditions could average 30 MPG and normally 25. It's not a small car and it has some pep. If you twe
101 JJJ : Does it matter? Stupid rules are stupid rules regardless of who passes them (or lobbies for them to be passed)
102 PHLBOS : The problem is that once they're in place; it is a lot harder to have them removed. Case and point, the much-hated National Speed Limit in this count
103 Superfly : Well the only people screaming and complaining about those big evil oil companies and demanding unrealistic MPG averages ARE the environmentalist. Th
104 TSS : So that would be the modern-day equivalent of the old automotive axiom "Good (reliable), fast, or cheap: Pick any two".
105 Klaus : No, it isn't. The technology to meet 1960s requirements with a 2707-style supersonic airliner would be in existence, but not for the requirements of
106 Superfly : That's just bureaucratic non-sense. The technology is already there!
107 Klaus : No, it's real people living near airports making real election choices and starting real lawsuits – and that's just about the noise issue, and even
108 Superfly : Laws can easily change that. Simply ignore the whiney NIMBY's and eliminate some enviornemental laws. Doesn't change the fact that the technology is
109 Post contains images Klaus : We could also re-allow toxic pollution in drinking water and in food products. But why would anyone want that? It doesn't get truer with repetition
110 Superfly : 27 years in service with British Airways and Air France? I'm just giving an example of how ludicrous it is for Obama to force this mandate on auto ma
111 Klaus : Only possible with special noise and pollution waivers on the few airports it was allowed to serve after intense lobbying (and still with a host of s
112 cws818 : Hey, I tried - with tongue firmly in cheek when I posted!!! Humor and a polemic - these days, it's pretty much the same!
113 Post contains images dazbo5 : Which is pretty poor in the scheme of things if I may be bunt. I did a 600 miles freeway (motorway) trip im my current car 3 weeks ago which is a mor
114 Post contains images Superfly : So you finally admit, the technology is there after dozens of post dancing around the issue. Early 1980s Volkswagen diesels get better mileage than a
115 JJJ : To be honest, I'd rather have an accident in a Prius than in an 80s vintage golf. The downside of safety is weight.
116 Post contains links PHLBOS : Nick, from a previous thread (IIRC) you mentioned that you drive either a Nissan Maxima or Altima; I don't know if you ever mentioned the model year
117 Klaus : For a protoype which can only be tested on special, remote airstrips? Sure. For a certifiable and commercially viable supersonic airplane? Not a chan
118 Aesma : About Obama flying a 747, and about Concorde, Mitterrand flew the latter :d About carbon tax in the EU, it isn't here yet. Some countries have a tax w
119 Post contains images Superfly : Mitterrand was a far better leader than the Mangina we're stuck with in the White House at the moment. New York, London, Paris, Washington DC and Mia
120 Klaus : All the special waivers for Concorde have now lapsed and are highly unlikely to be restored ever again for a new aircraft of comparable (or in the ca
121 cws818 : Wow, Superfly! You are really disillusioned, bitter, angry, and unhappy. I hope that one of these days you can educate us as to why and that you can
122 Superfly : What's with the personal insults? Am I not entitled to have my own opinion? Those are just laws that can be easily changed. Already aware of that. Wh
123 cws818 : Of course you are, and your opinion is always respected, anticipated, and valued - at least from me. But mangina? really?
124 Post contains images Klaus : What insult? It's the impression your posts have been leaving for quite a while now – as if life was all dreary and aggravating all around. Come on
125 Post contains images Superfly : Yep. I'm going by Urban Dictionary definition #33 A male feminist. A man who is overly concerned with women's issues to the point of complacency or c
126 Klaus : Then all the seething resentment is just in my imagination? Oops – apparently not. They already know themselves that they've got no chance to survi
127 Post contains images Superfly : Dude, I'm a single guy living in Bangkok. How could a possibly be angry & bitter? I just simply do not agree with you & Obama. That's all. I'
128 Klaus : You tell us. Apparently I'm not the only one wondering. What several billion humans are doing with their technological-industrial civilization does h
129 4holer : If I were President, I'd mandate levitating cars fueled by happy thoughts. It wouldn't take effect for 15 years so that is perfectly reasonable. Prog
130 Superfly : So if my opinion is different than yours, that means that I am "bitter"? Interesting. The number of people who still believes this is shinking faster
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