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River Plate Goes Down To 2nd Division  
User currently offlinetarheelwings From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

One of the fascinating things about world soccer is the following fact: in all of the top professional leagues in the world (Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, etc), if a team has a bad season and ends up at the bottom of the standings, they are demoted to a lower professional tier.......I mention this because in Argentina, River Plate was demoted yesterday to the 2nd division. River was demoted because they lost a playoff with Belgrano, Belgrano in turn was promoted to the 1st division. In Argentina, River is one of the big 2 (River and Boca) in professional football, the equivalents in other top leagues would be Barcelona and Real Madrid (Spain), Manchester United and Liverpool (England), Juventus and Milan (Italy), Bayern Munich and Dortmund (Germany), etc, etc.....River going down is a BIG deal......it's hard for us here in the US to grasp what this means.........kinda like the Yankees finishing last in the American League and going down to Triple A ball.

Anyway, thought I'd mention it because it's always been interesting to me that in other places in the world, the mighty are punished if they don't perform.

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

The most poetic part of the whole deal is that they were relegated due to a ''average'' system specifically devised for THEM. That is, they were also about to be relegated many years ago and in order to save them, instead of the last two or three teams in the standings in points going down like in every other league on the planet (literally), the average of the last three campains is computed, called ''promedio''.

Thus if you have are really rough season, if your prior two were at least descent, you won't go down.

River had three disastrous seasons... karma, karma, karma. They fell chest down into the sword they help forge.

I actually don't dislike the system, as it helps stabilize short tournaments that are still used in Argentina. It's just the most fitting sporting situation I have ever seen. A team goes down because of a system designed to save them!!

Bye bye.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinesignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
the average of the last three campains is computed, called ''promedio''.

So will they be promoted next year if they play well, or do they have to have 3 good seasons to average?

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

Quoting tarheelwings (Thread starter):
Anyway, thought I'd mention it because it's always been interesting to me that in other places in the world, the mighty are punished if they don't perform.

Well, I think only in North America there are closed leagues (but maybe I'm mistaken). There is not much fun in that, but I'm coming from a different culture so I'm probably biased. It does not prevent me from watching the NBA and the NHL, though  
Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
I actually don't dislike the system, as it helps stabilize short tournaments that are still used in Argentina. It's just the most fitting sporting situation I have ever seen.

It's a very complicated system. And this Apertura and Clausura tournaments, I don't get it either. In France you play one championship, 38 games. The last three of the 1st division are relegated to 2nd division, the first three of the 2nd division are promoted to 1st division. No playoffs like Spain, England, Italy or Germany. Very simply and a lot clearer for everybody. Argentina's system is really complicated to follow   

Anyway, River had it coming. If in three year you are not able to get your act together, then I guess it is only fair that you go in 2nd division, though I am a bit sad to see a monument of South American football being relegated.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1064 times:

Quoting signol (Reply 2):
So will they be promoted next year if they play well, or do they have to have 3 good seasons to average?

signol

Not exactly. It just means that during the first season in a new ''division'', your wins, draw or losses are magnified. It's simple math:

If you have been in the league for 3 years, then you are ''weighed'' on a maximum of 57 games that you have played in that league. If you managed 90 points in those games then your average is 1.578 points per game (90 points divided by 57 matches), which is pretty good btw. Teams that are just promoted or relegated obviously do not have 57 games in their new leagues, so the first year you are weighed on 19 games, 2nd year on 38 games, finally third year on the past three tournaments.

When a team is promoted or relegated, you have no ''official'' history, everything resets to 0. Even if you have been in that league before, it is all erased. So if River goes up again next season to the top league, their averages from before relegation are not valid.

What this means is that 3 points on a 19 game average is much more influential than 3 points on a 57 game average. But it also works against you: If you don't put up a string of victories and quickly in your new league, you are almost guaranteed to be struggling to keep yourself in that league, because with an average based on so few games, every point is critical as it swings your ''promedio'' substantially.

River was rather unlucky too. The two promoted teams to last season did exceptionally well. They managed 50 plus points... which is unheard of for two teams recently coming from the B league. Had only one of them made 45 points, then River Plate would have avoided the dreaded ''relegation'' playoff home and away.

But again, it just adds to the spice of the karma witnessed. I can't underscore how many things had to happen for River Plate to fall and they did. Again, I think if this was a movie script people would say it's too contrived...

ps- If AFA has any balls, they will asess River Plate a punitive ''point'' penalty for the rioting after the game. It's not unheard of that 12-18 points are deducted. So if that happens then they would start the B league literally, with negative points... which would be catastrophic for their ''promedio'' in their new league!!

If indeed they are deducted major points (plus already they have lost home play for at least 4 games to start the next season due to the incidents), it's not out of the question they could struggle to keep themselves from falling to the real ''underling'' divisions, B Metropolitana which is basically barely above amateurs!!



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1000 times:

Quoting tarheelwings (Thread starter):
Manchester United and Liverpool (England), Juventus and Milan (Italy), Bayern Munich and Dortmund (Germany), etc, etc.....River going down is a BIG deal

Both Manchester United and Liverpool have been relegated in the past, only team in England never to have been demoted is Arsenal. In the case of Manchester United they were relegated in 1974, just 6 years after being European Champions.


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3403 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 991 times:

Quoting tarheelwings (Thread starter):
in all of the top professional leagues in the world
Quoting Derico (Reply 1):
instead of the last two or three teams in the standings in points going down like in every other league on the planet (literally)

No promotion/relegation between MLS and USL. It'd be nice, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 3):
In France you play one championship, 38 games. The last three of the 1st division are relegated to 2nd division, the first three of the 2nd division are promoted to 1st division

Ligue 1 is definitely underrated, IMO.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 976 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 6):
No promotion/relegation between MLS and USL. It'd be nice, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

In North America, sports teams are a matter of ''state'', literally. They are heavily private institutions yet they are widely assisted with public funds because many cities see them as a status or identity symbol for their communities. They are born by admission into a league, thus if a new team is created to be admitted to a top league like the NBA, then the initial investment made is to belong to that league and not a lower league. The owners would never expect their team to be relegated.

Football clubs, specially in Argentina which with England has some of the oldest clubs in the world, were founded as memberships, and because of the hundreds of clubs founded, a system had to be devised that gave a chance to all clubs to play for the championship. Thus literally a club in a low division can improve and rise all the way to the top.

Europe has gone away partly from that because some clubs have grown into businesses of their own, and dominae their leagues. In Argentina only Boca Juniors probably has that corporate entity like European clubs. The rest still depend on memberships and TV fees for their income, which is why so many struggle because private investment is discouraged as members fear a loss of control.

[Edited 2011-06-28 06:13:13]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinetarheelwings From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 961 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 7):
In Argentina only Boca Juniors probably has that corporate entity like European clubs. The rest still depend on memberships and TV fees for their income, which is why so many struggle because private investment is discouraged as members fear a loss of control.

Interesting you mention that, in Chile the top three teams: Colo Colo, Universidad Catolica, and Universidad de Chile (with a couple of the smaller ones) are now being traded on the stock market and are being managed as commercial enterprises......we'll see where this experiment leads....could this be a harbinger for change in South America?


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6581 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 958 times:
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Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
ps- If AFA has any balls, they will asess River Plate a punitive ''point'' penalty for the rioting after the game. It's not unheard of that 12-18 points are deducted. So if that happens then they would start the B league literally, with negative points... which would be catastrophic for their ''promedio'' in their new league!!

Grondona and his fellow mobsters, won´t allow that. River and Boca are the top grossing teams for the AFA. This is also a tragedy for AFA (and Grondona´s pockets) I´m even surprised they didn´t Bribe Belgrano to loose the game. I was honestly expecting them to loose by the the 2 goals River needed.

What is more surprising was the destruction of the stadium, the rioting outside, the two dead, and the other niceties. Yes, normal in Argentina, but FIFA (another mobster club) needs to do something about it, because not even the security of the players is guaranteed. What will happen in a hypothetical Copa America final between Argentina and some other team if Argentina is loosing approaching minute 85?

And on that note what is going to happen with the Copa America? Monumental as I read is thrashed and a judge has closed it pending "investigations".

Shameful day, in my opinion.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 949 times:

Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 8):
Interesting you mention that, in Chile the top three teams: Colo Colo, Universidad Catolica, and Universidad de Chile (with a couple of the smaller ones) are now being traded on the stock market and are being managed as commercial enterprises......we'll see where this experiment leads....could this be a harbinger for change in South America?

Well, in Brazil they are building private prisons... Mexico has heavily privatized football clubs.

Do not expect anything like that in Argentina. There is a colossal distrust of private enterprise (privatilization) in Argentina from the 2001 crisis, in which it was said ''private banks are better than public banks'', and many still went down. A whole generation in Argentina has been lost because of that to trust the private market (sadly, as I believe that when it's properly managed it is positive).

But in Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Uruguay, even Paraguay... you never know. The market economy in those countries enjoys far more support than in Argentina right now.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
What is more surprising was the destruction of the stadium, the rioting outside, the two dead, and the other niceties. Yes, normal in Argentina, but FIFA (another mobster club) needs to do something about it, because not even the security of the players is guaranteed. What will happen in a hypothetical Copa America final between Argentina and some other team if Argentina is loosing approaching minute 85?

There were no dead so I have no idea where you got that info.

Clarin is now saying they will not take away points, they will not allow fans for the first three games River plays (which is an advantage, I don't get that), and their stadium is suspended the first six home games, which is two-thirds of the season. No guts, but that's to be expected.

As for the Copa America, remember River Plate is only to be used for the final... so they have four weeks to get it in order. The stadium itself is mostly ok, it's the club's offices, the hall museum area and the cafeteria for members that were ransacked.

As you mentioned, barrabrava violence is typical in Argentina for many years, yet that has not spilled over in events like the World Cup qualifiers. So I see no reason why it should affect the Copa America. At the risk of sounding classist, two different types of fans attend the regular league games (many time the ''barrasbravas'' oversell tickets in the popular stands by a few thousand to make money, but it also creates overcrowded conditions), and international soccer matches, let alone other sports like rugby and basketball where you almost never hear incidents.

I am very critical of the police, but if 2,000 fans want to make a mess, they will do it no matter what you do short of shooting them down. Look at Vancouver the other day... What needs to be done is identify the trouble makers and put them away for good and make an example of them. That's where the police is totally inept and mostly because from orders from above.

Remember in this country removing protesters that block public transit is illegal... or squatters in public parks that take it over to demand housing, even if they are illegal immigrants. The problem is lack of political will, not the violence itself sadly.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 920 times:

Well, now it is being reported that River Plate stadium will be banned for home games for 20 HOME games, not just 20 gameday weeks... an entire YEAR. I still don't believe that report, but multiple sources are quoting it. Also multiple lawsuit could be coming forth from both individuals, AFA, and even within River Plate members themselves.

Plus let's not forget the millions they are losing because they are relegated. The players may not even get paid and themselves go to court. Bankruptcy for the ''millionaires'' is not an outside possibiliity.

I think the harder they come down, the better it actually is for that organization. They need to touch bottom to realize how badly managed they were.

[Edited 2011-06-28 10:30:32]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6581 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 909 times:
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Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
There were no dead so I have no idea where you got that info.

From the news here. On the day of the game one fan was crushed under a transmission cabin, and the other a policeman that was badly injured with cranial lesions. However, today Garré says that "no police were badly hurt", so really, who knows? It would not be the first time information was changed or censored in Argentina, even through the years of "democracy"

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
As you mentioned, barrabrava violence is typical in Argentina for many years, yet that has not spilled over in events like the World Cup qualifiers. So I see no reason why it should affect the Copa America. At the risk of sounding classist, two different types of fans attend the regular league games (many time the ''barrasbravas''

That is true, I had not thought of that. There is also the custom of the different teams of actually paying the barrabravas to attend the games and incite and execute the violence. Hopefully the Barrabravas won´t be an issue in the Copa America.

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
I am very critical of the police, but if 2,000 fans want to make a mess, they will do it no matter what you do short of shooting them down.

I wholly agree with you. The issue is, it appears they won´t stop unless they are shot down. I think rubber bullets are in order. What the last two games ended up in was total savagery on the field, with fans kicking players etc. On the final that did not happened because the players were surrounded by TWO CIRCLES of police. But again Barrabravas were in the field. You can´t have that. You just can´t.

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
Remember in this country removing protesters that block public transit is illegal... or squatters in public parks that take it over to demand housing, even if they are illegal immigrants. The problem is lack of political will, not the violence itself sadly.

Don´t forget that it was Cristina who ordered the game be opened to the public, when there was a debate still goign on among the clubs and the AFA if it should be closed. I don´t think it´s lack of politcal will, it´s a mad desire to be re-elected no matter what and try and not piss off any potential voters.


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