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Who Competed With Saturn, Pontiac, And Oldsmobile?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6649 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

As we should all know, out of the American auto manufacturers, Chevrolet competes with Ford and Dodge. Buick mostly competes with Chrysler, and formerly, Mercury. Cadillac mostly competes with Lincoln.

However, did Saturn, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile really have any domestic competitors? These brands weren't all important anyway, as they all were squeezed in between Chevy and Buick.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

I think the most realistic answer is they competed with each other, much like the entire GM lineup of the 90's and early naughts. Too many brands and names flying around. And anybody with a brain could see that they're the same car. For a similar reason we don't see Plymouths anymore.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15836 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 1):
For a similar reason we don't see Plymouths anymore.

That was the primary competitor along with Mercury in the "poorly badge engineered versions of mediocre cars" segment.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6649 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
That was the primary competitor along with Mercury in the "poorly badge engineered versions of mediocre cars" segment.

Um, Mercury always competed primarily against Buick, not Saturn/Pontiac/Oldsmobile. Both Buick and Mercury are considered semi-luxury brands. GM simply did a better job at differentiating Buick from Chevy.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Saturn was going after the Japanese carmakers. Pontiac competed against Dodge and Ford (Ford also competed against Chevy). Oldsmobile and Buick were basically high-end and low-ends of the same market, except for the sporty models. Near the end, Oldsmobile was trying to go for the people who wanted European cars, but couldn't afford it.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3016 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

Who competed against Saturn, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile?

Mainly Saturn, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile.... Typical GM at the time. They competed a bit with the likes of Toyota and Mercury, but not as much as themselves. Crappy cars compete with other crappy cars.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15836 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Um, Mercury always competed primarily against Buick, not Saturn/Pontiac/Oldsmobile.

Even Buicks are nicer than thinly disguised Tauruses. At least GM makes an effort with Buick. Not a really good one, but still an effort.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 5):
Crappy cars compete with other crappy cars.

   I doubt anyone is really going to miss any of them. Some of the later Pontiacs weren't bad.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
I doubt anyone is really going to miss any of them. Some of the later Pontiacs weren't bad.

I miss them. I always thought that Pontiac should be the Performance Division, Cadillac the Luxury Division, and Chevy the Utilitarian Division.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3016 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):

   I doubt anyone is really going to miss any of them. Some of the later Pontiacs weren't bad.

You know what, I agree- the Pontiac G8 seemed to be a good car.... but in general, I stand behind my statement.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4891 times:

Originally there was the "low price three" Chevrolet, Ford and Plymouth. One step up was the Pontiac, Mercury and Dodge. The next step up would Oldsmobile and De Soto. A step above them Buick and Chrysler and then the top of the line Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial.

The Saturn was GM's idea of an import fighter (Honda, Toyota, etc) it failed for many reasons.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4888 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Originally there was the "low price three" Chevrolet, Ford and Plymouth. One step up was the Pontiac, Mercury and Dodge. The next step up would Oldsmobile and De Soto. A step above them Buick and Chrysler and then the top of the line Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial.
  
It's also worth noting that prior to the downsizing that took place in the late 70s; moving a step up brandwise also meant that one was getting a larger vehicle (despite sharing identical platforms and components) as well among standard/full-size models.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
The Saturn was GM's idea of an import fighter (Honda, Toyota, etc) it failed for many reasons.

IMHO, the biggest reason Saturn failed was because the brand along with its vehicle types were launched several years too late from a marketing standpoint.

[Edited 2011-07-01 08:12:58]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
It's also worth noting that prior to the downsizing that took place in the late 70s; moving a step up brandwise also meant that one was getting a larger vehicle as well among standard/full-size models.


Not necessary. In the 50', 60', and 70's you could get a Pontiac that was built on a Chevy frame or a Oldsmobile frame. you could also get an Oldsmobile built on a Buick frame. The 1962 Pontiac Catalina used a Chevy frame (120" wheel base), the Bonneville a Oldsmobile 88 frame (123' wb) and the Oldsmobile 98 was built on the Buick Invicta 225 (126" wb) frame.

So full sized GM cars in 1962 a Chevy had a 120" wheel base, Pontiac's 120" or 123" wheel base, the Oldsmobile a 123" or 126". Buick's were offered with 123" and 126" wheel bases and Cadillacs with 129' and 149" wheel bases.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 11):
So full sized GM cars in 1962 a Chevy had a 120" wheel base

Wrong. From all of the car books/magazine sources I've read, the wheelbase of the full-size Chevy from 1959-1969 was 119".

Source that covers up to 1965 (it includes the '58 model (117.5" WB) as well):
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1958-1965-chevrolet-impala5.htm

According to Wiki (for what it's worth), the Pontiac Catalina's wheelbase (excluding the station wagons) ranged as follows:

1959-1960: 122"
1961: 119" (matches the Chevy)
1962-1964: 120"
1965-1968: 121"
1969-1970: 122"
1971-1976: 123" (the Chevy's wheelbase was 121.5", except for the wagons)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Strato-Chief

Mind you, this is not to say that there weren't exceptions to this; but it seemed to be the general rule. On the Ford Motor Company end, prior to 1979 full-size Mercurys were traditionally (exceptions include the '69-'70 Marauder and the '61-'78 station wagons) larger than their Ford bretheren.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
The Saturn was GM's idea of an import fighter (Honda, Toyota, etc) it failed for many reasons.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
IMHO, the biggest reason Saturn failed was because the brand along with its vehicle types were launched several years too late from a marketing standpoint.

This completely ignores the fact that Saturn was extremely successful for about a decade. GM then diluted the brand and tried to make it larger, and it lost the way.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6649 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Pontiac, Mercury and Dodge

Mercury did not compete with Pontiac and Dodge, their primary competitors have always been Buick and Chrysler.

Also, consider that people who generally bought Mercury vehicles were older than the average car buyer, especially the Mercury Grand Marquis. This trait was shared with Buick.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4834 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):

Actually, during the 60s and, to some degree the 70s, Mercury's full-size line consisted of various trim levels (and names) that, to an extent, competed w/Pontiac and Dodge in addition to Buick, Olds and Chrysler.

Its basic sedans (most of which used the Monterey badge) were used as police cars alongside various Pontiacs and Dodges. While there were some LeSabres and Delta 88s used as police cars as well; Mercurys were used more often than those two brands for (mostly state police) agencies that wanted a car with a longer wheelbase than a standard Chevy, Ford or Plymouth.

A few Mercury Monterey police cars:

1970 model parked next to a 2007 Ford PI:
http://images19.fotki.com/v32/photos/4/42477/129631/007CVPIand1970MercuryMonterey2-vi.jpg

1973 model:


A bunch of 1970 models w/SFPD badges (likely former CHiP cars, note: the black rear doors, SFPD cars had white doors all-round) in a scene from the 1972 film What's Up Doc?


Vintage photo of a 1970 Monterey, sans the white CHiP door and badge, surrounded by 1969 CHiP Dodge Polaras


Vintage 1970 Monterey Coupe ad. marketing it as a "medium price" car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WdYzftqBQ

[Edited 2011-07-01 12:08:31]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinetristarenvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 15):
Its basic sedans (most of which used the Monterey badge) were used as police cars alongside various Pontiacs and Dodges. While there were some LeSabres and Delta 88s used as police cars as well; Mercurys were used more often than those two brands for (mostly state police) agencies that wanted a car with a longer wheelbase than a standard Chevy, Ford or Plymouth.

I've read of a few cop shops that seriously tried diesel Oldsmobiles. And you can guess what the end result was.

My hometown of Sugar Land Texas had a small fleet of LeSabre cop cars in 1978.

And reference the first two "Smokey & The Bandit" movies for Pontiac Lemans and Catalina's galore!

(And two Canadian cities had Aztek patrol units... :P)



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 16):
And reference the first two "Smokey & The Bandit" movies for Pontiac Lemans and Catalina's galore!

Actually, in Smokey & the Bandit - Part 2 or II Gleason's patrol car was a 1980 Bonneville (that a few times turned into a '76 Bonneville during stunt scenes). Later in the film, the various red and white new -model Pontiac LeMans patrol cars turned into AMC Ambassadors and Matadors during the crash scenes.

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 16):
I've read of a few cop shops that seriously tried diesel Oldsmobiles.

In 1979 and 1980, my hometown of Marblehead, Massachusetts used non-diesel Delta 88s. Those replaced '78 Monacos and '77 Royal Monacos. From '81 to about '85, they went w/Impalas; and then from then on to Crown Vics.

[Edited 2011-07-01 11:52:08]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
miss them. I always thought that Pontiac should be the Performance Division, Cadillac the Luxury Division, and Chevy the Utilitarian Division.

I agree. And I truly miss the Pontiac brand, having owned 5 different Pontiacs over the years. 2 Grand Prixs, 2 Grand Ams, and a LeMans.

The recent GTO and the G8 sports sedans were very competent, exclusive vehicles (thanks to Holden) for the North American market. Shame the G8 station wagon (Safari?) and the Ute versions never made it to market before GM murdered Pontiac... and Saturn.... and Saab.... and Oldsmobile...   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15836 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
I always thought that Pontiac should be the Performance Division

They didn't get that memo until it was too late. Besides, GM management seems allergic to decent models.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Cadillac the Luxury Division

Sort of.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 18):
The recent GTO and the G8 sports sedans were very competent, exclusive vehicles (thanks to Holden) for the North American market.

Those models were pretty good, but then GM killed them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 18):
before GM murdered Pontiac... and Saturn.... and Saab.... and Oldsmobile...

I believe Saab is still around at the moment but it's no longer a GM entity.

[Edited 2011-07-01 12:16:38]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 12):
Wrong. From all of the car books/magazine sources I've read, the wheelbase of the full-size Chevy from 1959-1969 was 119".


I agree, I read the wrong chart.


User currently offlinetristarenvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 17):
Actually, in Smokey & the Bandit - Part 2 or II Gleason's patrol car was a 1980 Bonneville (that a few times turned into a '76 Bonneville during stunt scenes). Later in the film, the various red and white new -model Pontiac LeMans patrol cars turned into AMC Ambassadors and Matadors during the crash scenes.

Oy! That movie makes my head spin with continuity mistakes. The Bonniville loses it's skirts...then becomes the '76..then changes agin to another Pontiac. But I'm a car geek so I notice that mess.



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4771 times:

Quoting tristarenvy (Reply 22):
But I'm a car geek so I notice that mess.

Same here, along w/my older brother. When we both saw that film (it was just released in the theaters at the time); we were both commenting on that.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
I always thought that Pontiac should be the Performance Division

They didn't get that memo until it was too late. Besides, GM management seems allergic to decent models.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Cadillac the Luxury Division

Sort of.

I was opining on what they SHOULD be, not what they were. Pontiac would offer cars which would compete with BMW or Porsche, Cadillac would face Mercedes and Jaguar, and Chevy would face Toyota and Nissan.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
25 aa61hvy : My fiance drives a 2008 (09?) Saturn Aura. A nice 6 cylinder car, decent interior. She loves it. I think it's pretty good. It seemed to me Saturn fou
26 BMI727 : The later Saturns got better, but still they weren't anything that you couldn't find with another brand.
27 aa61hvy : I'm speaking specifically about looks, interior wise its comparable to others in that class. Exterior, there was no car that looked like it. All of t
28 MSPNWA : I'm a huge Pontiac fan, so I'll definitely miss them. In fact, there has been no GM car of the last couple years I'd consider buying. So once the use
29 EddieDude : The Saturn Aura is essentially a twin version of the last Opel Vectra with some sheetmetal and interior tweaks. I have never driven an Aura or ridden
30 WildcatYXU : No. There was some resemblance, but it's just about it. The Aura was built on the same platform as the Vectra, however with a significantly increased
31 luckyone : Season 4 of Dexter has similar errors. The night and crash scenes show him driving an older Kia Sportage. In daylight he is clearly driving a Ford Es
32 CargoLex : Alot of the problems with these brands is that they just outlived their markets, or markets continually changed and the corporations didn't change the
33 Flighty : Saturn competed with imports, not GM or US brands. But the problem was, Saturn lost money. They sold cars, made people happy, but they never actually
34 Post contains links PHLBOS : Since the 307 was still available and widely used on cars through the mid-to-late 80s; '77 Delta 88s fitted w/305s might've been done to address a su
35 PHLBOS : Since it's too late to edit my previous post, I'll comment here. For those that don't know, the PT Cruiser WAS originally planned/intended to be a Ply
36 type-rated : First time I saw a 307 engine was on a 68 Chevy Biscayne. So it had been around a long time. I remember when GN first started the Saturn division, it
37 PROSA : GM also got rid of Hummer, a brand that practically screamed "wretched excess" and was wholly inappropriate for recessionary times.
38 CargoLex : Indeed, they were really popular and for good reason. You got pretty much everything the older, larger cars offered but the downsized B/C cars offere
39 PHLBOS : It could've been worse; imagine somebody opening the hood of their late-70s B-body Chevy/Buick/Olds only to find Pontiac's 301 (an engine not known f
40 type-rated : But that Chevy 302 was only available in the special edition Z/28 Camaro and was blue printed from what I understand. It was not available in other C
41 Post contains images 474218 : Correct The 302 was an option on the 1967, 68 and 69 Z/28 Camaro only. The standard V8 in the Camaro was the 210 hp 327. However, the 302 was rated a
42 tristarenvy : Could have been worse! Could have been Hillman Avenger/Plymouth Cricket's in there, too!
43 CargoLex : Wierdly, that car went on to have a whole second life in South America. They were in production, first as a Dodge and then later as a Volkswagen, int
44 tristarenvy : And, with this age of "everybody get's the same crud" those days off oddball cars in other places seems to be dead. I remember the joy I felt when I
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