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The Israelis Wants To Join Both The EU And Nato  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3848 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

A large majority of Israelis want their country to become a member of both the EU and NATO.



The survey was conducted by Ben Gurion University in Tel Aviv and was announced Tuesday.

81 percent of Israelis want Israel to join the EU, while 68 percent say they want NATO membership. Somewhat fewer, but still a clear majority of 64 percent, say they want NATO troops as peacekeepers on the border with the Palestinian areas of Gaza Strip and West Bank.



An english translation from norwegian and more on the subject here


http://translate.google.com/translat...kel.php%3Fartid%3D10088427&act=url

http://translate.google.com/translat...heter%2Fverden%2F1.7710994&act=url


The basis for the measurement of interviews of a representative sample of 1,000 people. The margin of error is given to be 3.3 percent.



Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

227 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Well, that's a slight bit of a fail.

Israel is not in Europe and with their human rights abuse record, they aren't likely to get into the EU regardless.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5789 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
Israel is not in Europe

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5776 times:

I suppose Turkey not being in Europe must be why they were for so long known as the sick man of Europe. Don't remember Palestine being the sick man of Europe though. Ever checked where the W border of Turkey happens to be?

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
Don't remember Palestine being the sick man of Europe though.

What "Palestine"?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
I suppose Turkey not being in Europe must be why they were for so long known as the sick man of Europe.

You must have confused that term "sick man" with something else. It has been used for the UK of 1970s, misgoverned by the Labour and de facto ruled by unions.

[Edited 2011-07-12 08:48:38]

User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5744 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

Similar opinions were aired when Cyprus applied for admission to the EU. Many policymakers and scholars predicted that Cyprus would never be granted membership in the EU until the two halves of Cyprus were reunited. Despite those predictions, the southern portion of Cyprus was admitted to the EU in 2004 yet the island remains partitioned and the so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus persists (the northern portion of Cyprus is not part of the EU). This is not to say that the Cyprus issue is analogous to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, but only that certain predictions about the EU's desire to see political and security conflicts resolved before granting a country membership are not always accurate.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine

Well, that's more the other way round. The first step would be to acknowledge the existance of Israel and their right to exist.

I would welcome Israel to the EU and to NATO. NATO has been the most efficient peace keeping organisation since WW2 and Israel would be an asset in that club.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5740 times:

Seriously, if it would bring peace and prosperity to this region (e.g. Israel and Palaestine sorting out their problems as a precondition and both get admitted, like a stick and carrot approach), why not?
The decade-old conflict cost us a lot, both in money as well as in blood.
It can only become better (and cheaper for us).

Jan

[Edited 2011-07-12 08:48:10]

User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3003 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5717 times:

The EU, as I remember, was pondering on whether to give Israel a privileged membership (just short of complete EU membership) where Israel can participate in all EU matters. Israel, unfortunately, does not qualify for membership since it's not a European country (both geographically or culturally).

As far as NATO is concerned, I thought only countries located in Europe were eligible? Again, the prospect of privileged partnership come to mind.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
Israel is not in Europe

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.

  
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally, both requirements to be eligible for EU membership. In fact, Cyprus is more Asian than Turkey and yet Cyprus is in the EU. The problem with Turkey is that it's a predominantly Muslim country, something the EU doesn't view favorably (and then there's the whole Cyprus dispute). Check a map, Turkey has a small region in Europe (East Thrace). That qualifies on the geographical grounds. Consider that there is European culture in it, and you have a second reason to qualify to candidate status.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

It might serve as an incentive, but come on, do you really think they will risk dividing "the promised land" in return for better trade with the EU?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally

A chunk of an Istanbul suburb is in Europe, fair enough. That still does not make them European country, definitely not culturally. Just as possesion of Martinique or Guadeloupe does not make France a Caribbean country or Hawaii the US a Polynesian one.
Gee I wonder why half of Europe spent centuries worth of military effort to kick them out of the Balkans and the gates if Vienna... didn't those fools notice they are Europeans?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
In fact, Cyprus is more Asian than Turkey and yet Cyprus is in the EU.

Cyprus more "Asian" than Turkey... WTF?    I wonder if you have ever been to these countries to make such absurd claim?   

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):

As far as NATO is concerned, I thought only countries located in Europe were eligible?

Canada? US? Turkey?


User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5688 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Interesting. Somehow I doubt the EU will accept membership unless Israel can make peace with Palestine.

Nor should they. Neither should NATO. Sorry, but the way things are now why in the world would Israel be allowed to join NATO? Until they settle their differences neither should be an option. Only once they have implemented any peace agreement should they be considered.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
where Israel can participate in all EU matters. Israel, un

When I started in the air cargo business, Israel was part of TC2 in the special area called "IATA Europe". That has changed and it is part of Middle East in TC2. Israel is a perfect blend of Europe and the Middle East with a touch of America. I would not object having the country in the EU.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):

Neither is Turkey and the British have been pushing them in regardless.

Half of it is, that's a damn way better than Israel which is wholly in the Middle East.

I don't want Israel in the EU. I don't even agree with them being a country but that's another thread.


User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Turkey is definitely in Europe, both geographically and culturally, both requirements to be eligible for EU membership. I

You really think Turkey is more culturally European than Israel? That's a joke right?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Wiki:
"Sick man of Europe" is a nickname that has been used to describe a European country experiencing a time of economic difficulty and/or impoverishment. The term was first used in the mid-19th century to describe the Ottoman Empire, but has since been applied at one time or another to nearly every other mid-to-large-sized country in Europe.

So it was first applied to what is now called Turkey. That is what is known as a term having priority.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
NATO has been the most efficient peace keeping organisation since WW2 and Israel would be an asset in that club.

NATO has turned into a joke. It's members can't come to consensus on when/how to project force, and even if they did, no one but the United States invests enough in its armed forces to sustain combat operations for more than a few weeks.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):

A chunk of an Istanbul suburb is in Europe, fair enough. That still does not make them European country, definitely not culturally.

Actually it is quite a bit more than just a suburb of Istanbul. There is a whole province located between Greece and Bulgaria.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
That has changed and it is part of Middle East in TC2. Israel is a perfect blend of Europe and the Middle East

So is Turkey.

The one thing about any country joining the EU is that they will have to sign, ratify and implement the EU charter of human rights. So far Turkey has failed with the implementation and I think that both Israel and Palestine will have big problems with this issue as well.

On the other hand, once e.g. Israel, Palestine and Turkey become fully modern democracies (I know that on paper they are all democracies, but Israel is defined as a state with a prefered religion and it´s record concerning other religious and ethnic groups is not exactly stellar, Turkey has an issue with ultra-nationalism, military rule and the supression of ethnic minorities, and Palestine´s governments are simply corrupt) and economically prosperous (maybe include Lebanon in the mix) and you´ll take the wind out of the sails of all the religious and nationalist fanatics.

Jan


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3003 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Just as possesion of Martinique or Guadeloupe does not make France a Caribbean country or Hawaii the US a Polynesian one.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Did France have its origins in the Caribbean? Does it have a LONG (centuries) history in the Caribbean? Does the US have a history with Polynesia?

Look at Turkey, with both the Roman Empire and Ottoman Empire. Look at Ancient Greece and you'll see modern day Turkey as part of it. And I'm not excluding modern day Cyprus.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Cyprus more "Asian" than Turkey... WTF?    I wonder if you have ever been to these countries to make such absurd claim?

1. Culturally speaking, it's European. Geographically speaking, Cyprus is in Asia. To me, that makes it more Asian than Turkey.
2. I have not been there, but apparently I'm the only one who has a map or has a decent knowledge of geography. Here, I'll share it:

For those that cannot locate Cyprus, it's the little island on the Eastern Mediterranean in gray (south of Turkey, also in gray save East Thrace in white; west of Syria, also in gray). Notice how geographic Europe is in white. I wonder why Cyprus isn't white?  
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Canada? US? Turkey?

Turkey: refer to the above map.

As far as Canada and the US, you might want to read about why they both are in NATO. Again, for those that have not been able to read before they argue, may I present the NATO Archives.
http://www.nato.int/archives/1st5years/chapters/1.htm

I'll quote a part:

Quote:
On the 4th March, 1948, representatives of Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom met in Brussels to discuss a treaty of mutual assistance. On that same day, the French Foreign Minister, M. Georges Bidault sent an eloquent message to Secretary of State Marshall:
'The moment has come', he wrote, 'to strengthen on the political level and, as soon as possible, on the military level, the collaboration of the old and of the new world, both so closely united in their attachment to the only civilisation which counts'. M. Bidault declared that France, with Great Britain, was determined to do everything in her power to organize the common defence of the democratic countries of Europe. He expressed great gratitude for the economic assistance given by the United States but stressed, as Mr. Bevin had done in previous messages, that the resolve of the European countries to resist aggression could be effective only with American help. He proposed political consultations and the examination of technical problems 'concerned with common defence against a peril which can be immediate'.


As it turns out, NATO is not an American idea. The original members of NATO (the ones that signed the Treaty of Brussels) invited the US to NATO. When NATO was born, Canada was also a signatory as well as a few other members. All other expansions have been solely European members, and I quote Article 10:

Quote:
The Parties may by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty.

Hence the reason why I think Israel will only get privileged membership with NATO.

Now, to not derail this thread anymore, I will not debate the Cyprus/Turkey issue anymore (though you're more than welcome to open another thread on it).



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5613 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
You really think Turkey is more culturally European than Israel? That's a joke right?

At least it (still) has a secular constitution, unlike Israel which is akin to a theocracy with a pinch of democracy.

About Turkey joining the EU, the fear is not just that it's a Muslim country, but a Muslim country with more than 70 millions inhabitants, making it the second most populous country in the EU. I don't see them being accepted for that reason, however a "privileged relationship" is fine, and over time, if they evolve in the right direction (which is not a given with Erdogan), they might get in around 2050.

About Israel, there is no way without the conflict being resolved, and it's not the same as Cyprus, or we would be talking about admitting Palestine in the EU. The Turkish question is not off topic, because I doubt Turkey would view kindly Israel being admitted when it is not.

If anything Israel has more chances to become a US state !

And NATO, while less unlikely, NATO being an US animal (currently), there would be fierce opposition from other members.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 12):
Half of it is, that's a damn way better than Israel which is wholly in the Middle East.

And they say Americans are poor at geography...either you meant to say "Istanbul" or your ability to read a map and work fractions needs improvement.

Fifty years ago this might have had some traction, as a large percentage of Israeli's are only second or third generation Europeans. Today, however, the political ramifications are probably too great. I can't imagine the two dozen or so countries that do not recognize Israel being eager to do business with the EU that includes Israel.

On a more humorous note, how many bets are there that Israel will not be part of the Schengen agreement???  


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5607 times:

I don't see Israel having a dog's chance of joining the EU. For a start, the current Israeli leadership is pretty much persona non grata in the EU and their human rights record vis a vis the Palestinians makes membership well nigh impossible.

That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians. I don't see it happening with the current Israeli government, but I would hope that a more enlightened, visionary and courageous Israeli government could see the necessity to move forward. Should this happen, the EU should support this.

I think the EU needs to take a strong stance on this and such a strong stance is particularly important if there were to be another Republican administration in the US, because such an administration would be likely to embolden the more regressive, hardline factions in Israel, making a stalemate (at best) more likely.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 20):
That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians. I don't see it happening with the current Israeli government, but I would hope that a more enlightened, visionary and courageous Israeli government could see the necessity to move forward. Should this happen, the EU should support this.

Following the various Middle Eastern and Northern African revolutions and this poll from Israel (if we can trust the figuses), it seems to me that the normal people in this region have enough of religious or nationalist fanatics as well as military rulers.

Jan


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 20):
That said, I would personally (for all the weight that carries!) be in favour of Israel being granted concessions - for example membership of the European free trade area, Open Skies etc, in exchange for concessions leading to a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians.

Have you read the latest proposals for a law in Israel? From Haaretz here is part of a summary of what is wrong with it.

Q. What is wrong with the law?

1. The measure curbs political freedom of expression in Israel in a number of ways, setting potentially significant – and dangerous – precedents. It allows any individual to, in effect, become a private law enforcement agency, empowered to bring lawsuits against anyone or any group the plaintiff accuses of having taken part in or even simply supported any action the plaintiff construes as a boycott against Israel, against the settlements, or even any individual Israeli, for any reason.

2. The measure erases the legal differentiation between settlements and Israel proper, regarding targeted boycotts against goods from the settlements as actions harmful to the state of Israel itself.


User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5574 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):
And they say Americans are poor at geography...either you meant to say "Istanbul" or your ability to read a map and work fractions needs improvement.

The point I was making was that at least a part of the country is in Europe. Maths and the fact I didn't check a map before making a bit of a daft post aside, Israel is completely separated from Europe whereas Turkey has a small area in Europe.

The EU is the EUROPEAN Union. If you aren't in Europe - you don't qualify. It's like the Republic of Ireland being part of the UK because it borders a part of the UK.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1295 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

I don't think this survey is something large in scale or serious enough, since it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Israeli press.

I think it's ignorance who brought those results. Most Israelis don't know what is the meaning of joining the EU it terms of loss of sovernty of the local government to the EU. I bet most of them don't know what NATO really is (damn, not sure if i know it myself!) or what will be the meaning of the IDF joining NATO forces. No government will join Israel to any of those organizations, in the unlikely event that Israel will be asked to join them.

Israel is facing unique challenges that no other country in the world is facing, for that the Israeli government can't allow to a non-Israeli organization from Brussels to dictate it's policy. It may be right for the Netherlands, not for Israel.

No dought that Israel is not in Europe - it's in the middle east. If I could measure the influence that Europe has on Israeli culture, it's very little. Israel is effected, first and foremost, from the middle east (Israeli popular music is basically arab music with hebrew words) and second - from the United States, mainly in TV, movies and music. Europe is not very popular in Israeli culture, and if Israel wasn't geographically close to Europe i guess there wasn't much Israeli tourism to the continent, as Israelis sometimes feel unwelcome in some parts of Europe unlike north america or asia.

The EU doesn't really have a say in the Israeli-arab conflict, it has failed to take part in it throwout the years, while the US did. The EU is considered, for most of us Israelis, as a pro-arab organization (don't know if this stigma is justified or not) and that Europe is biased to the Palestinian side of the conflict, therefore I don't see any major support in joining the EU in Israel.

I do hope that one day Israel can become a part of an alliance of middle east countries, one that may include Turkey.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
25 Post contains links Mortyman : Jerusalem Post 12.07.2011: http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=228926&R=R1 A similare survey conducted in 2009 found simila
26 racko : You would have a hard time denying Lebanon, Syria, hell even Iraq entry into the EU if you allowed Israel in. Just relying on the fact that they'll st
27 Mortyman : So who will have the best chance of joining the EU and NATO: Israel Turkey Russia Russia is part of Europe too. Even more than Turkey and certainly mo
28 einsteinboricua : Agreed, but EU countries fear Russia. I think they'd rather have Turkey in than Russia. Cold War memories still linger, though why they do is beyond
29 janmnastami : Excuse me, do you really think that Israel, Turkey or Russia could join the EU in the medium term? Are you serious?
30 Mortyman : I don't think that it will happen anytime soon, no. I have made no such statement. But from what I understand it has been discussed from time to time
31 Post contains images janmnastami : I'm calm , but I'm astonished that many users on this forum don't understand what the EU really is and talk about Russia as a future member of the un
32 PanHAM : To be precise, geographically Cyprus is Eurasian. The culture is European, ancient Greek. Always has been under that influence. BTW, there are Europe
33 iakobos : A pinch of salt and a few grains of pepper are needed here my friend... The Ottoman Empire to which the "sick man of Europe" locution refers included
34 OA260 : The Greeks actually may have saved the EU and the Euro by numerous governments mis management and corruption! The EU now realise that they shouldnt bi
35 Post contains links Mortyman : The EU is a union of European nations and a political and economical one, as such if Russia wants to aply for membership ( I don't know ), then it wi
36 Maverick623 : You want to talk about human rights? Maybe when the EU grows up and realizes that people have the right to practice whatever religion they please, I'
37 gemuser : I was going to stay out of this thread, but the history student and archivist in me rebelled! The origins of Turkish culture have nothing to do with
38 janmnastami : The EU is not just a political and economic union: this is what many users here don't understand. The EU is based on common ideals and principles, th
39 iakobos : Sorry, wrong. By the early 20th C it had shrunk to the minimum. Talking about the House of Osman and the Ottomans and their culture or Turkish cultur
40 Post contains links and images eaa3 : I doubt they will actually join the EU. But what about an associate agreement like the EEA where despite not being in the EU Israel can participate i
41 Post contains images OzGlobal : Over my dead body. Nothing against individual Israeli people. People are people. But as a nation, well it's a pariah currently.[Edited 2011-07-12 16:
42 travelin man : The difficult question is not so much "does Israel want into the EU and NATO", but rather "do the EU and NATO want Israel"... I fail to see how the in
43 Aesma : So, does Israel realize that better ? You can't even marry someone of a different religion than yours !
44 gemuser : Actually it was just the Roman Empire until Constantine split it in two in the 4th century. It then became the Eastern and Western Roman Empire. When
45 ltbewr : It is clear that Israel does a lot of trade with the EC already, from sending high-tech electronics to food in winter seasons and importing other food
46 Maverick623 : No, they realize it about the same as certain countries in Europe. Which is why this whole "human rights" line is BS. France may not be to the point
47 Mortyman : You paint with a broad brush ... Sure he was'nt too happy about Europe as a whole, but there are countries in Europe that provide far more than their
48 Baroque : All true, but it cuts both ways, a large part of the Ottoman Empire was part of what is commonly termed Europe, and a part of modern Turkey is still
49 MD11Engineer : The Balkans (lost during the early / mid 19th century) and Northen Africa, especially Egypt (the Ottoman empire at it´s height used to include Libya
50 racko : No offense to Mr. Gates, but meddling in a Libyan civil war isn't exactly the core mission of NATO. That would be defense, and the one time Article 5
51 iakobos : Apart from most of Northern Africa as mentioned by Jan, we may add (mix of present and past names) Black Sea/Caucasus/Caspian sea regions...Crimea, B
52 lewis : You do need to check a map. Turkey covers a vast land.
53 Babybus : I'm not sure that is true. It's only the Turks themselves that have been salivating to get in. It's a big thumbs down to Israel getting into the EU.
54 iakobos : I am not sure which of the Arabs or the Turks will feel the most upset...
55 rlwynn : That suburb of Istanbul you speak of is larger than Slovenia and has the population of the Czech Republic.
56 Post contains images OA260 : In all honesty though Israel surprised me at how European alot of the people are in their outlook. Tel Aviv does not seem Middle Eastern at all. Its
57 Asturias : It does not cut both ways, since a large part of what was called the British Empire was part of what is commonly termed Asia, Africa, America and Oce
58 MD11Engineer : Nope, just Europe as defined by geology. Jan
59 Asturias : Nope, that's nonsense. Europe defined by geology spans from Iceland to the northwest, Portugal to the south-west, Novaya Zemlya to the north-east and
60 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : I haven't read something so funny in ages. Given the actions of the Israeli Government (human rights etc) especially there latest proposition on the
61 MD11Engineer : That´s the geoGRAPHICAL definition. Baroque, who is a geologist by trade, used plate tectonics and similarities in rock structures for his definitio
62 gemuser : Mate I'd be VERY careful about arguing with the Geology Prof about rocks and plate tectonics! Gemuser
63 Baroque : The first sentence is the one I was going to write. And the interesting thing is that not only is the Geographic definition is arbitrary in a number
64 washingtonian : Israel has no need to enter the EU. No European country is a real ally of Israel. The United States is the only true friend of Israel in this world It
65 TheCommodore : Strange then, that so many Israelis want to be apart of it by joining the EU and NATO Really ? I wonder, with all the fiscal problems facing the US a
66 Baroque : Any more information on who "they" might be? What is that? Must not have been in our papers.
67 lh526 : Culturally I see Israel to be way more european than Turkey. If Europe is the sum of centuries of educated, enlightened philosophers, writers, poets,
68 flyAUA : 1) Isreal is not Europe 2) The majority of Europe does not want Israel to be part of them I rest my case!
69 MD11Engineer : My late father was teaching geology and palaeontology as well (Masteral in Geology, PhD in Palaeontology), due to him I know the differences between
70 einsteinboricua : What is the EU waiting for then? Are they hoping that by keeping Turkey in a process with no end in sight Turkey will remain allied with Europe? If t
71 Asturias : Since he screwed up and didn't include half of Iceland in Europe, I'm sorry but I don't give a pair of dingo's kidneys for his opinion. Fact is Europ
72 einsteinboricua : Then Cyprus could not join since geographically and geologically it's in Asia. Culturally, however, it's European.
73 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Actually the western part of Iceland belongs geologically to the North American plate. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plate_tectonics_map.gif
74 PanHAM : The case is politically and as long as Turkey is not a real democratic state with an independent judiciary and clear division of powers it cannot and
75 Baroque : They do not seem to have a smilie for taking one's hat off in admiration. But that is exactly what I had in mind Jan. To the dingo's kidneys salute,
76 PanHAM : I find it amazing that a country wants to join a club (well, do they really want to?) and forces their rules onto the other 27 club members-. Not only
77 DeltaMD90 : I think what many posters need to realize (and it is very hard, living in just about any part of the world other than Israel) is that they've been in
78 Post contains links Baroque : Excellent sentiments, can I suggest you forward them to: http://www.netanyahu.org.il/ He will probably find some aspects of your suggestion to be nov
79 TheCommodore : The EU and NATO are one thing, but.... How fast do you think Israel will change, if they no longer enjoy the blind support currently afforded them by
80 DeltaMD90 : I don't know, no one knows, otherwise this situation would be fixed. But, the difference now, the EU might have something they want. If so many Israe
81 OA260 : Duh . So are most Americans and they are not European in their outlook. My Gay friends in Turkey would beg to differ. Turkey has not even followed EU
82 luckyone : However most American's parents and/or grandparents have zero memory of living in Europe. Most Israeli's do. Israel is only 60 years old.
83 MillwallSean : If you count in the million or so thats arrived from Russia definitely. However I disagree about most Israelis remembering what it was to live in the
84 Maverick623 : That experience only goes so far, especially in an area like Israel and Palestine. The current generations really don't know what it's like to live i
85 PanHAM : I agree. The Turkish announcement that they will freeze contacts to the EU for the duration of the Cypriot Presidency was just a reason to highlight
86 Post contains links Baroque : As perhaps does the performance of the Israeli ambassador in Christchurch after the recent earthquake????? http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...rth
87 AirPacific747 : Not going to happen in a long time. I think Russians are too proud to join. They want to be completely independent as a nation, just like the UK some
88 zalemam : True, how many times has Israel been caught spying in countries they are allies with.
89 Post contains images PanHAM : Or quintuple citizenship? I mean, could happen. A good friend's family is from Austria, his wife is from Germany, their kids were born in the USA, th
90 Quokka : I find it strange that Turkey can not be considered for EU membership, ostensibly due to the issue of Cyprus, when the other party to that dispute was
91 PanHAM : There's more to that than just Cyprus. I do not want to get deeper into that but preferred partnership is really the best they can get for a long tim
92 Quokka : But to a certain extent you already have them. Why else the insistence on separate Governments, separate treasurers in each State who flout the EU gu
93 Post contains links einsteinboricua : They say Turkey can't join the EU because it's not a full democracy, yet I see some support for Israel to join both the EU and NATO. Is this an exampl
94 Baroque : Quite a good one. I thought the anti boycott law was even better, but it is a matter of choice I guess and there is plenty to chose from!
95 Post contains links iakobos : A little bit of information as to Turkey's EU accession might be useful here... http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/pdf/...010/package/tr_rapport_2010_en
96 Quokka : So there is no debate or worry or concern about the possibility of default by various EI states and the impact that that would have on the wider comm
97 iakobos : Relativity my friend, relativity. You are mixing everything as in a stew and picking up only the less appetizing pieces. The EU is still an institutio
98 Post contains links TheCommodore : I read this yesterday In the NZ herald, and couldn't believe they are up to there dirty old tricks again. Simple amazing ! http://www.nzherald.co.nz/
99 PanHAM : That is something differenmt. We want a European Union of nations. Don't confuse that with nationalism . We want the regional differences and 500 sor
100 Post contains images Baroque : That is my impression too. I work quite a bit with an international organization dominated in its membership by Australia, but in its officers by Eur
101 ME AVN FAN : Turkey IS in Europe with its prime metropolis and with an important other city (Edirne), while Israel is NOT. BUT the REAL difference is that Turkey
102 Post contains images Baroque : True and welcome back MAF, where you been?
103 PanHAM : @ ME AVN FAN - I always appreciate if the quotes are not taken out of context. As you can see, I said that Israel will not join the EU. I may add tha
104 ME AVN FAN : - I do not see any values and standards not compatible with Europe. The standards were Europeanized already in the 1920ies and 30ies. And the values
105 ME AVN FAN : too much work, and problems with my computer
106 PanHAM : Well, many Europeans have a completely different view on that, not only in Germany. As long as women's rights are not competely acknowledged and "hon
107 MillwallSean : Turkey as EU member. I dont see that happening. Partnership is as far as Turkey can come. I dont see it happening in my lifetime. I think an inclusio
108 ME AVN FAN : - Sure, and to solve that is what Turkey will have to do in the future, because a lot of the reservations all over Europe is based on real problems.
109 PanHAM : ME AVN FAN, if you care to read the whole thread you will find that Turkey will cut talks to the EU for the duration of the Cyrpiot EU presidency. Tha
110 something : Absolutely. Israel's culture may be vastly different from, say, the Portuguese, but in matters of daily economical and social life it comes much clos
111 ME AVN FAN : - As long as Greek Cyprus has the EU presidency, talks between Turkey and the EU do not make any sense - such things are done by Italian ministers on
112 something : Well and my idea is that all countries should speak the same language, use the same measurements, currency etc. But that seems awfully unfeasible. Hu
113 jfk69 : If it was put to rest by your own PM, why do you fan the conspiracy flames?
114 ME AVN FAN : The idea of the French (Schuman/deGaulle) and German (Konrad Adenauer) and Italian (deGasperi/AmintoreFanfani) founders was the same measurements, bu
115 PanHAM : Poland and its economy are a real asset, they are one of the tiger states in the EU, Estonia is another gem. But indeed the EU should stay where it i
116 something : Economically yes. But it is also a safe haven for organized crime and corruption. Always reminds me of rap music. 50 Cent glorifies killing people, s
117 ME AVN FAN : Turkey is secularist by constitution. And the civil law is a copycat of the Swiss ZGB (the company law is the German one)
118 PanHAM : and sometimes there is fiction and reality...... Fiction is what Mr. Erdogan says and reality is what he does. Any other PM would have been booted by
119 Baroque : You might find that was the NZ PM and it rather follows the script for Captain Dominique Prieur and Commander Alain Mafart.
120 Post contains images iakobos : Me thinks you deserve a gold medal for this one This one qualifies for silver and this for a big one in bronze, with a kiss from Aphrodite and the fl
121 janmnastami : If I were you, I wouldn't talk about the Italian financial situation in this way, considering the situation of the UK. Fortunately, the Italian gover
122 lewis : That's funny, go read the Anan plan again and tell me if you would put your country under the direct control of Turkey. Why would the Greek side surr
123 jfk69 : From Wiki: After the bombing, a murder inquiry was started by the New Zealand Police. Most of the agents escaped New Zealand but two, Captain Dominiq
124 Post contains images something : Why are you offended by something that has nothing to do with you whatsoever? If you knew anything about fiscal finances, you'd shake your head about
125 janmnastami : Italian public deficit is much lower than the deficit of the UK (4,6% of the GDP vs. 10,4%), there's no financial irresponsibility: your "la dolce vi
126 lewis : It is a very typical stereotype from the North, people that happen to live in a country with a nicer climate and nice beaches are automatically livin
127 something : We're veering way off topic here, but just to highlight a few problems the EU already has and why it should treat the joining of new members with the
128 janmnastami : Berlusconi has never been interested in local matters. His sole interest is to solve his judicial problems and to protect his media empire, he can co
129 Post contains links OA260 : Wrong the Greeks have offered plenty but the Turkish side still stalls at every point. The Turkish Cypriots could have been in the EU ages ago in an
130 Baroque : Also from Wiki France threatened an economic embargo of New Zealand's exports to the European Economic Community if the pair were not released.[2] Su
131 Babybus : Don't you think Israel should concentrate on forging better relations with its neighbours rather than cry off to the EU or America all the time? The E
132 ME AVN FAN : - You mean what WERE their homes in 1974, 37 years ago ? You mean that no longer existing houses should be re-erected, or present owners thrown out ?
133 Post contains images PanHAM : Why is it a problem for Turkey that others now have as well what they had alone before? Are they still playing in the sand castle?
134 OA260 : If you own the deeds to your land and your house then yes . Otherwise you should be prepared to move out if you bought illegal land as was the case w
135 Quokka : While all these discussions of who holds title to which of land are intriguing when it comes to Cyprus, why are the same questions not applied to Isra
136 ME AVN FAN : - It just did not land up in the Western press. So, either those in government in Nicosia or Athens were total idiots, or it is simply not true. the
137 lewis : Many of those aspects above are also highlighted by the Turkish Cypriots (not the settlers, the ones that are actually from Cyprus), who do not reall
138 ME AVN FAN : No Sir, this question has been around when Germany reunited. German courts decided that West Germans could NOT demand East Germans be thrown out of h
139 virgin744 : Neither is Cyprus - its approx 200miles east of Istanbul, but its still managed to get in!!!
140 lewis : Nobody is blackmailing. Turkey did go way further than its guarantor rights would allow it to go. They also made numerous violations of the Geneva co
141 lewis : Geographically that is true, but do you have any clues about the ethnicity of the inhabitants of Cyprus?
142 virgin744 : Of course I do! I AM A CYPRIOT!!!!!
143 OA260 : Yet the law in the Greek South protects the rights of the Turkish Cypriots and their property . Cases were taken to the courts. When the same rights
144 ME AVN FAN : - Such things, committed by the Turkish armed forces, on Cyrpus, in border aereas of Iraq, in Kurdistan and even INSIDE "real" Turkey belong to the l
145 Post contains images imiakhtar : You may be surprised to hear that Turks, Greeks and Cypriots share a similar genealogy. Over the last two millenia, there's been quite a lot of genet
146 OA260 : Quite a few actually and they were free to sell it at the market rate which they used for whatever purpose they chose. Any Turkish Cypriot can move t
147 ME AVN FAN : - If I consider it correctly, it is obvious. Greek Cyprus by its own laws is all-Cyprus. A Turkish-Cypriot visiting Greek-Cyprus is simply INLAND. So
148 lewis : AFAIK it is all of TRNC. And that's not just regarded "illegally occupied" by Greek Cyprus only, but from the UN and the international community as a
149 ME AVN FAN : The "international community" does not have an opinion in fact, but the U.N. the UN rules had not alternative than to follow the "suggestions" of the
150 lewis : Yeah to put it mildly. Add to this the hundreds of prisoners that were lost for ever in prisons on mainland Turkey and you have more "not gentelmen-l
151 OzGlobal : If by "enlightened attitudes", you mean respect for human rights, international law and the dignity of others, then yes, these are European and Chris
152 Post contains links iakobos : An interesting read... http://www.wariscrime.com/2008/10/17...ow-was-the-jewish-people-invented/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand
153 aerorobnz : -France alone has many millions of muslims, so they would ALL be allowed to live and work in Israel as EU citizens which is fine, but if even a small
154 ME AVN FAN : A) Greece DID do this after WW-I, until Mustafa Kemal Pasha drove the Greeks out of Turkey in 1922 upon the Battle on the Sakarya B) Greece was anoth
155 Asturias : Actually you didn't read a word I wrote, i.e. that the eastern part of Iceland belongs geologically to the EUROPEAN plate. Something mr. geology expe
156 Baroque : You might want to calm down the levels of insults my friend or at least get them right. This is what I wrote. I clearly indicated that half of Icelan
157 Asturias : It's insulting to point out your bias? Or are you going to try to convince anyone that you're being objective. Either way, no apology needed, no insu
158 Baroque : Again you do not read too well. That post was about continental plates. And the European plate does not extend to Iceland. You might include Rockall
159 Asturias : Well let's see what the Australian thinks about what we should do in Europe, shall we? Jeez. Again, spare us the fake indignation, and while you may
160 Post contains images eaa3 : Iceland is indeed on the Eurasian plate, but only about half of it. The rest is on the North-American plate. [Edited 2011-08-07 05:09:26]
161 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : This may be an argument in Israel. But you forget that nobody in the EU asked Israel to join. It rather is that some people in Israel WANT to join th
162 OA260 : Northern Ireland is settled ever since a democratic vote on both sides of the Island on the same day voted for peace and an amendment to the Irish co
163 ME AVN FAN : Tell me about the stuff you are smoking ! The N.I. Catholics have NOT dropped their idea about N.I. joining the Republic. And the Irish in the Republ
164 Post contains links OA260 : Are you on drugs mate ?? I live on the border and know a lot more about what people think in their daily lives than you do thats for sure. You must b
165 ME AVN FAN : I am sure that you know this matter far better than me, and HOPE you really are right ! I further on hope that things will develop in a similar way i
166 lewis : Guess you missed the "past few decades" part of my post. Also care to mention what "Greek" islands you are talking about?
167 ME AVN FAN : Greek islands ? Sorry but I am at a loss about what you mean. The only "Greek islands" in history may be those right in front of the Turkish coastlin
168 lewis : No, although I do believe that Turkey has in general gotten away with a lot of wrongdoings, I am a firm believer that Turkey and Greece would be bett
169 Post contains images YokoTsuno : Just out of curiosity what would the Aussies and Canadians think of the idea of joining the EU. And let's get cute here. Would the Europeans accept t
170 Baroque : NZ in particular got pretty close to some sort of association. Australia did feel a bit lost for a while when the UK started its affair with the Comm
171 MillwallSean : No. As stipulated in the Lisbon treaty a country needs to be in Europe to become a member. The US isnt. Thus rejection. Then there is a whole bunch o
172 Asturias : ME AVN FAN is as Swiss as I am - i.e. not at all, he's from Egypt, or something like that. So he is indeed a "Swiss" because he lives there, or claim
173 ME AVN FAN : No, the Arab League countries are NOT to join the EU, the Arab League however will put more and more emphasis on the Mediterranean Partnership and on
174 lewis : Go back to his posts and he keeps doing the quote thing when he talks about "Greek", "Hellenic" etc.... I do not think it is random, more like patron
175 Quokka : From another thread in this forum: So being born to a Swiss mother and brought up by a Swiss father makes someone biased against What is patronising
176 lewis : Are you for real? I brought my issue to him twice, he won't bother explain his choice of wording so I am assuming he will never do. And as I was repl
177 Asturias : That's cute, and who's to say I'm not half-Swiss myself? Regardless, I did ask ME AVN FAN at one time where he was from and now I remember it was Mor
178 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : except that Oran is in Algeria
179 Asturias : Oh yeah, I constantly mix those two together. Apologies, my mind is distracted. Regardless, you told me you were from Algeria and moved to Switzerlan
180 ME AVN FAN : An Arab of Swiss citizenship or a Swiss citizen of Arab origin
181 Asturias : So whichever is convenient for you at the time? Cool. Since you introduced yourself to me like that, I've always considered you the former. Strange t
182 ME AVN FAN : It at times is not a matter of convenience but a matter of duty. I did military service in Switzerland, a total of more than 400 days. I detested the
183 Asturias : Indeed, and why do you frequently write Greek with quotes? Or Hellenic? Is that your duty? asturias
184 Baroque : If an Australian can venture a comment into one use of quotation marks, might it not be to draw attention to the need to consider the context in whic
185 iakobos : Quite clear IMO, the adjective Greek in the geographical context is questionable, that is why it is between quotation marks. That those islands are g
186 Baroque : It is indeed an interesting point. As to the geological affinities of the areas being discussed I was noting that the geology was not a good basis fo
187 lewis : So no problem calling someone a "Swiss", always using the quotes, since "Swiss" can have various meanings per context, like cheese, knife, punctualit
188 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : I always see with amusement that some retailers in Switzerland make a lot of ado about REAL "Schweizer Eier" (Swiss eggs) and me jumping to off-topic
189 Post contains links Baroque : If there is not necessarily a singular meaning there may be some point to putting quotation marks. Frankly I found the exchanges so tedious that I di
190 aerorobnz : Given the current climate the last thing the EU is more countries added to it. More countries = more to bail out when things go bad as they have done
191 iakobos : Perhaps, though I was simply suggesting an explanation for the usage of inverted commas/quotes by ME AVN FAN, not supporting it. In French the quotes
192 Post contains images Baroque : I will vote for that.
193 weebie : Australia and New Zealand have a better chance of getting in to the EU than Israel. Turkey will be a good addition and they have a lot more going for
194 Asturias : No and no. Israel has a far better chance of getting into the EU than Israel, and Turkey would be the worst possible addition and quite likely the en
195 Baroque : Yes, well that seems entirely likely, or unlikely maybe. Try it in Excel and you will get "Circular reference warning". But that is only based on expe
196 Asturias : I know it is hard to understand, but things can be disagreed with and in fact rightly so, without being afraid of them. For instance, are you afraid
197 Post contains images iakobos : In Spanish that would be diagnosed as pavophobia, a mild affection that can be treated by a vet any day of the year. Windows Office is intelligently
198 Asturias : Pavofobia, and from a political and economical standpoint the inclusion of Turkey into the EU would be a huge turkey. ast.
199 ME AVN FAN : - Sure it will, even if A) some people have a different opinion, and B) Turkey has a long way to go still to solve the many open problems - No, the j
200 Asturias : Yes, it will. The EU is an uneasy alliance of convenience, with with a larger population than any EU country. Russia is never ever ever (ever) going
201 weebie : Turkiye may have a long way to go but they are literally light years ahead of Israel. Adding Israel also creates many more problems that adding Turkiy
202 Post contains images Asturias : Anyone who spells Turkey like Türkiye (and yet couldn't find the umlaut on his keyboard) doesn't strike me as the most objective when describing the
203 Post contains images Quokka : Now there is a surprise. An alliance that encompasses a population larger than any individual country that is a part of that alliance. And there was
204 Asturias : Yeah the missing word was Turkey. I'm sure you couldn't have guessed it, so here it is. Being a signatory to a convention is meaningless unless it is
205 Quokka : Really?. Nationality is clearly very important otherwise you wouldn't mention it. As the following comment shows: There seems to be an aversion for p
206 Asturias : Australian (read: "english" speaker) Aversion of people in country X telling country Y how to act, how to live and whether or not they should include
207 Post contains images Asturias : By the way, I never claimed any such thing about you - those are your words, not mine. However, being a north-African, raised in Germany/Austria, you
208 Post contains links Baroque : But it does give you admiration for the tolerance of most of our American colleagues when we comment on their politics and economy. And that is odd b
209 ME AVN FAN : No, The EU is an alliance of European nations as was the idea of Messrs de Gasperi, Adenauer and deGaulle, and ought to be THE union of THE European
210 PanHAM : We could sell I actually did not want to get involved in this thread any longer, but if Turkey would really want to qualify to join the EU they have t
211 iakobos : Just to put things back were they should be, there was only Cyprus. It is the Turkish intervention and subsequent occupation that created purely arti
212 Asturias : The EU is an entity sui generis, that is the object and definition of the countries and peoples that make it, regardless of the ideas of these fine m
213 iakobos : To satisfy your curiosity: it all starts 1 with a military intervention in the affairs of and in the territory of another State. (deemed legal with r
214 777way : Now you've invoked God, none may become like Spain highly likely yet not impossible, but Spain, EU and the rest of the west could become paupers shou
215 Baroque : Seems quite a popular occupation in that part of the woods. Popular with the occupying force that is, maybe not so popular elsewhere!
216 Post contains images Quokka : Are personal insults really helpful to your argument? You may wish to remember that when Franco usurped power in Spain he did so using troops from Mo
217 Post contains images Asturias : Thanks! I was wondering if it was in some way unjust of me referring to this incident as an invasion, so I was curious. Nowhere did I invoke God. Yes
218 Quokka : Except that you know that that adjective is never used in polite society for very obvious reasons. It is a bit like saying half-yid. No one would say
219 777way : I meant provoke, anyways you know exactly what I stated regardless, too many examples in all holy books of arrogant nations, forces, individuals deal
220 Baroque : It has got to the stage where one has to quote: Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fana
221 Asturias : Very good, provoke as you see fit. Nowhere did I invoke God. I don't know what "yid" is but it sounds derogatory. Moor is not derogatory, and certain
222 Quokka : Is that AM or PM? If it's the latter, I am beyond saving. Go straight for the cognac!
223 Post contains links Baroque : Not specific on that although from the context -assuming they were early risers it would be am - but you must "sit in the "comfy chair," you will get
224 777way : Wouldnt prosperous wealthy Muslim states be better for countries who dont want those people moving to their lands? also a more prosperous Turkey may n
225 Baroque : Seems a reasonable proposition does it not! Added to which, Turkey lies across the most obvious land route from further E to Europe. So aside from pr
226 Post contains images Quokka : Well it certainly seems that "One o' t' cross beams's gone out o' skew on t' treadle," because in all the clamour over whose civilisation is better t
227 Post contains images iakobos : GDP per capita...for the perspective IMF 2010 Turkey 13,464$ (64) Greece 28,434 (29) Spain 29,742 (26) Belgium 36,100 (19) Aus 39,699 (10) WB 2010 Tu
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