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Tasers, use/policies throughout the world?  
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2322 times:

Hey,

I'd like to get some international opinions in on the usage of tasers. At the time of their introduction, they were supposed to function as an alternative to using ammunition. Nowadays it seems, they've become an alternative to walking. I find it appalling how easily tasers are being used against innocent people and naturally, this subject is closely related to police brutality.

I guess I have just come across way too many youtube videos, news reports and articles in the paper on the matter. The straw that broke the camel's back was this video though

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a70_1304404473

The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive, yet the ''I'll have to taser you'' line seems to be the go-to move of the cop in question. And it's really such a shame that 'bad apples' like him ruin the image of the entire police force and stain the uniform that his colleagues wear in pride, trying to actually serve and protect their communities. The fact that it's unlawful and should at the very least cost him his job goes without saying.

So what are your opinions/experiences? Are tasers legal in your country and has police brutality become a bigger problem, or have modern technologies (cam phones, internet, youtube etc.) just helped to shed light on something that's been going on for years?

P.S. Similar topics have existed in the past, but nothing as of late. If mods find this thread too much alike to old threads, feel free to delete.


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3053 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

I'm certainly glad our police force doesn't use tasers or else last summer we might have had plenty of tasered victims without reason.

The problem is not the taser: it's the person behind it. When you have many people just like the police officer who threaten to use it for no reason, that's when it becomes a problem. And unfortunately for us, our police force has tons of officers like that.

On a funny note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9REaCzfFM



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

I don't know the laws regarding signing a citation on the spot/refusing to do so, and/or if refusing to sign it constitutes an immediate need for the person to be arrested, and perhaps it varies with locale. Furthermore, what kind of moron drives without a seat belt on these days? Really? Is it that big of a surprise that you should buckle up?

That being said, it is amusing to me that the guy is willing to stand up to the cop until he mentions the word arrest then the guy can't back pedal enough. Furthermore, you honestly have a problem with the officer threatening to use the taser? He gives the guy plenty of warning, if he did choose to do something, the cop was likely covering his own rear end by warning him several times. Officers have to control the situation, be it a traffic stop, or something more immediately endangering. My dad's partner was killed during a routine traffic stop years ago, yet my dad survived several incidents that he probably shouldn't have walked away from. What you call "brutality" I see as an officer working to ensure the situation is under control. Yes, he could have handled it differently, but I don't know the laws, I don't know their procedures or policies, so I can't venture to guess how. I did notice the mention of using a taser did not occur until he asked the man a few times to step out of the vehicle, and the man failed to comply.

I'm not sure if you've ever worn a vest and gun and been asked to uphold the laws of the land, and deal with idiots and low lifes on a day to day basis, but until you have, you are not in any position to Monday morning QB what an officer does any more than I am to say what someone should have done, or said in a situation I've never been put in.

I personally have no issue with the use of tasers, or other non-lethal weapons. The whole point is to help the officer control a situation, or gain control without killing the person. If it gets to the point where a person is belIigerent or fighting back, things have already gone out of control. I remember when people pushed for more non-lethal weapons to be used, now suddenly they're too brutal? Give me a break. If you disagree with what is going on, or what an officer does, your best bet is to comply and have your day in court, like you are entitled to. That is what it is there for.

I understand there are bad apples in every department, in every city, in every state across the country but I don't think ill of the entire department or of police officers in general when I see one guy acting like a jerk or riding the power pony. I simply think he/she is probably not representative of their department.

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:41:07]

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:44:20]

[Edited 2011-07-17 18:44:46]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting something (Thread starter):
The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive

While I can't watch the video right now, that reasoning is extremely flawed by itself. Resisting is resisting... if the guy had to be put in handcuffs anyways, and he still refused, the cop would have to use some sort of force... and getting in a struggle puts the officer at risk of injury.

A taser is painful, yes, but it's no more dangerous to the suspect than applying pepper spray during a fight.

Quoting something (Thread starter):
Are tasers legal in your country and has police brutality become a bigger problem

Tasers are pretty much standard issue in the US. I'm not going to answer the second question, as it is extremely loaded and will just lead to a flamefest.

Quoting something (Thread starter):
the time of their introduction, they were supposed to function as an alternative to using ammunition.

Electrical stun guns have been around for decades, and were always used on or about the same level as pepper spray. The only difference now is the ability to use it from a distance... so yes, it is very effective for using it on someone with a knife, where as before the only other option was to use a firearm.

But in the US, they were never meant to be solely used for that.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Hm, I'd take it even one step further and claim it's not necessarily the person behind it, but the courts themselves. Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun. So what the cop in the video said was basically ''You get out of the car now, or I'll have no other choice but to shoot you.'' Not sure that's a very favorable light for the police to stand in.

Cops can carry tasers. But they should be held accountable for each and every time they use them and be prosecuted for every unlawful use.

I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8827 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting something (Reply 4):
Hm, I'd take it even one step further and claim it's not necessarily the person behind it, but the courts themselves. Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun.

It is not an alternative to a gun. It is a non-lethal weapon to subdue a subject. It's like a policeman's baton or nightstick. And using it on someone who is not a threat is assault. A gun is assault with a deadly weapon - a whole different kettle of fish.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
what kind of moron drives without a seat belt on these days? Really? Is it that big of a surprise that you should buckle up?

While I'd agree with you on that, his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
you honestly have a problem with the officer threatening to use the taser

Yes. The guy drove without a seatbelt on. That's a law to which there is a fine. And the officer is supposed to enforce that fine on the spot. Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me. What do you have left for rapists then, if you give away your hardest sentence to people who don't sign a $10 citation?

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
What you call "brutality" I see as an officer working to ensure the situation is under control.

I didn't call this particular incident 'brutal'. Sorry for the confusion. I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if you've ever worn a vest and gun and been asked to uphold the laws of the land, and deal with idiots and low lifes on a day to day basis

I have not. And I would be completely unsuitable to perform such a task. But because I know that, I don't even apply.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I simply think he/she is probably not representative of their department.

That is the hope. Yet, it does however color the image you have of them. Obviously, you can if you do everything the officer says, avoid getting tasered. But if the cop is overstepping his boundaries, and is asking me to do something he has no right to (like deleting pictures that I took legally), then there's bound to be friction. And the chance alone to end up violated and in jail, for having done nothing illegal is what actually frightens me. Not the use of tasers in their intended capacity.

And that's exactly my problem. America is legally built on a great foundation. You do have fantastic laws and some very competent judges there. But as comforting to know it may be that a cop like him will not get away with such misconduct, it doesn't really make the above described situation easier, where a cop asks you to do something you really don't have to do.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
A taser is painful, yes, but it's no more dangerous to the suspect than applying pepper spray during a fight.

Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
While I'd agree with you on that, his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Without knowing the local laws or procedures, I'm inclined to agree with you, but perhaps there is a law, or Department procedure to arrest someone who refuses to obey a command or perhaps they have to sign the citation, and refusal to do so steps into another law or territory of the law constituting apprehending the person. I just don't know.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me. What do you have left for rapists then, if you give away your hardest sentence to people who don't sign a $10 citation?

It may be extreme, but you'll have your day in court. Fight it then. For rapists? I'd just as soon have their genitals cut off sans pain killers and let them bleed out, or find a splintered piece of wood and let them take it where the sun doesn't shine. Or just drag their sorry rear end out back, put a bullet in their head and move on. We'd be better off without scum like that.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
I didn't call this particular incident 'brutal'. Sorry for the confusion. I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

No worries, I thought that might be what you mean but I didn't want to jump to conclusions or anything of the sort. I don't necessarily think their is a brutality problem, either. I do think that when it does occur, todays modern media devices and social networks make it far too easy for the snowball effect to take place. If it does happen, I should hope the officer is dealt with accordingly, be it fined, fired or thrown in jail themselves.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Yet, it does however color the image you have of them.

I don't think any less of the pilots at an airline if it has an accident or incident, I don't think less of one religion or another because a priest puts hands on a child or an extremist blows up innocents, etc. etc.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
And the chance alone to end up violated and in jail, for having done nothing illegal is what actually frightens me. Not the use of tasers in their intended capacity.

Agreed, but let me know how arguing with a cop goes for you. Like them or not, your best bet is always going to be to comply and wait for your day in court. Justice may take time but your chance will come.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Going to jail for refusing to sign a citation seems way out of line to me.

That's the whole point of having someone sign the ticket. By signing a ticket you are not agreeing that you did the action involved, rather by signing the person is committing to address the purpose of the ticket, either to show up in court or deal with it via the mail (how most are done nowadays). If you don't sign then the officer basically has to take you in so you can deal with the purpose of the ticket (if there wasn't a valid reason the officer would not issue a ticket) otherwise there is nothing the courts could do if you ignored them later as you have not signed and agreed to deal with the violation.

While I did not see a need for the officer to react the way he did (I would think the officer would just explain that the guy had a choice to either sign or why, if he did not sign, he would have to be taken in), but we did not see the first part of the ticket process so the driver may have already been told or done something earlier to elicit the reaction from the officer. Also it may have been a set up as the guy was filming the thing and may have wanted to defy the officer and not sign to see what he would do and "get it on tape" (so to speak).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting something (Reply 4):
Tasers were introduced as an alternative to using a gun.

No, they weren't. So you can stop with that comparison.

Quoting something (Reply 4):
So what the cop in the video said was basically ''You get out of the car now, or I'll have no other choice but to shoot you.

No, he basically said "You're under arrest, so comply or I will make you comply".

Quoting something (Reply 4):
I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?

You do realize Puerto Rico is part of the US? And that if you obey the law, you will be left in peace?

Quoting something (Reply 6):
his behavior doesn't justify or necessitate the officer's reaction.

Yes, it does. Failing to comply with an officer's legal demands is called resisting. It's a crime.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
That's a law to which there is a fine.

And so is:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
refusing to sign a citation

Which is an arrestable offense.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
I just meant to say that the unlawful use of tasers is part of today's police brutality problem.

And yet you have provided no evidence of unlawful taser use, other than your blind hatred for law enforcement.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Nearly 700 people have died as a direct result of taser use since they've 'joined' the forces.

And all 700 would have died in a conventional struggle. Your point is invalid.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3053 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Quoting something (Reply 4):
I'm just shocked by such videos and it makes people think twice if they should really spend their next vacation in the USA where they may get grilled over nothing, or rather enjoy the beaches of Puerto Rico where they'll remain in peace?

You do realize Puerto Rico is part of the US? And that if you obey the law, you will be left in peace?

I assume he was referring to the fact that in PR there are no tasers (that I know of so far) so if you happen to do something that goes against the law, you'll probably be subdued by other methods. Pepper spray is a favorite as are water cannons.

That's not to say police brutality is rare. For more info, look up the student strike of 2010 (we're on Wikipedia as well).



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

I finally got home and was able to watch the video.

I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. The driver had shown his clear intent to give the cop a difficult time.

So, I'll say it again, on the record and per this video:

Quoting something (Thread starter):
The guy in the car isn't violent or aggressive, yet the ''I'll have to taser you'' line seems to be the go-to move of the cop in question

You don't have to be violent or aggressive to be convicted of resisting and obstruction. In fact, most assaults against cops start out as passive resistance, and escalate when the suspect realizes he can't get away. There's a ton of videos where the second the cop says "step out of the car", the previously cordial driver floors it. Several times this has led to cops getting dragged hundreds of yards.

So yeah, when some smart-ass guy starts mouthing off and not being compliant, it raises enough red flags to where the officer will take preemptive measures to protect himself.



I also find it disgusting that you would accuse this officer of assault, and completely ignore the fact that the driver broke 3 laws: Not wearing a seatbelt, obstruction (for not signing the ticket), and resisting (for not getting out of the car when told to).



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7877 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Just watched it too... everything legal, but I think the cop should have been more lenient and professional.

But, when he initiated arrest, by all means, taser is used as a tool to comply (and oh boy does it hurt!)

OP, you need to research the difference between lethal and less than lethal force, at least in the US. Tasers and firearms are apples to oranges. You will NEVER see a situation where an officer can use a taser OR firearm interchangeably. If the suspect poses serious bodily harm or death to the officer or others, the firearm is always used (if not, the officer is WRONG.) Tasers are used for compliance, stopping a suspect from fleeing, etc, not something we use firearms for.

You can debate what is legal or right in your country, you are entitled to your opinion, but you cannot state that this officer was legally wrong, or tasers are interchangeable with firearms, etc. And once again, although the driver was a dick, I think the officer should have given *1* warning about going to jail. Had he done that, I would had no problems with what the officer did (judgmentally)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
No, he basically said "You're under arrest, so comply or I will make you comply".

Which, depending on how the person was acting prior to the point we see on the video, was not necessary based on what we see in the video. As I say, we don't know the full story, but just going off what we see, the officer did not NEED to react as he did. He could have simply explained that by signing the guy was not admitting guilt, he was merely promising to appear before the court if needed, and that if he did not sign then the officer would be obligated to take him in (under arrest). If the guy then refused to signed the ticket, after understanding the consequences of such an action, then yes, the what officer did would be appropriate. And again, it is very possible that the officer did explain all this prior to the start of the video.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Quoting something (Reply 6):
refusing to sign a citation

Which is an arrestable offense.

Refusing to sign is *not* an "offense" for which one can be arrested. However, not signing can lead to being arrested because it is the only other option available (other than just throwing away the ticket which isn't going to happen).

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
I finally got home and was able to watch the video.

I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. The driver had shown his clear intent to give the cop a difficult time.

I disagree, *based on what we see on the video* the driver merely stated he was not going to sign but then, when confronted with the consequences, signed immediately. That is not resisting, it maybe giving the officer a "difficult time" in some manner but "intent" can be ascribed be the actions that follow and it is obvious that the guy had no intention of "resisting".

I myself have not wanted to sign a ticket before and the officer talked to me about what it meant and what the options were. Nothing resisting, nothing escalating. Everything was good (and I did sign   ).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6598 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 2084 times:

Police officers shooting their gun is extremely rare here in France, so yes the taser introduced some unfortunate "trigger happiness". But at least there is a camera on all tasers.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15731 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 2083 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 2):
I personally have no issue with the use of tasers, or other non-lethal weapons. The whole point is to help the officer control a situation, or gain control without killing the person.

Same here. Tasers are great in situations where the alternative would generally be a physical altercation. A taser can diffuse a situation before it becomes a situation.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Thanks for your opinions so far.

I find it quite surprising, I want to say, how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy. Luckily, US law is based on reason rather than on ''gut feelings'' and nothing of what some people here seem to be in favor of, is even anywhere near legality.

But as I said.. a law won't bring back any of the 700 lost lives. And even if I didn't die and did eventually manage to prove my case in court and was paid severance money.. I'd honestly much rather forgo such an experience in the first place, than going home with a couple thousand dollars in my pocket. Investigations against such criminals in uniforms should put these people out of duty quick and restore the immaculate reputation any police force should have.

Here's an example of how petty problems can be dealt with alternatively..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRRTlrfTw0s&feature=related

Aggression is best be met with calmness. The cop understood the bad situation the driver was in, understood why he was angry but did his job in the most professional manner and wrote him a speeding ticket. He could have easily contributed to having this situation escalate but instead he defused it with zen-like calmness. What a great guy  

[Edited 2011-07-18 14:54:32]


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
I find it quite surprising, I want to say, how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy.

As law abiding citizens, why shouldn't we? What principles of democracy are at stake here? You seem to be already biased against officers and what they do to enforce the law, no matter what their actions are. Don't be so quick to point a finger, as others have illustrated you don't know what happened prior to the start of the video.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
But as I said.. a law won't bring back any of the 700 lost lives.

What would you have the officers do? Let people do as they please, and shrug their shoulders when a crime occurs? If you choose to resist/interfere with an officer when they're trying to do their job, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your action. Unfortunately, in extreme cases this can mean death. How many situations that would have ended with gunfire have been avoided by the use of tasers? I doubt you'll find a reliable figure, because it is probably too many to keep track of. Stop being a fear monger and think about the other side of the issue. This reminds me of someone who would call the fire department if your house was on fire, then whine about the water damage to your burned out house, or perhaps move under the approach or departure path of an airport then complain about noise. As citizens we've charged these men and women with enforcing the laws of the land. We have to defer to their better judgement and training and if we feel an injustice has occurred during the course of whatever events transpire, deal with it appropriately when the time arises.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Aggression is best be met with calmness. The cop understood the bad situation the driver was in, understood why he was angry but did his job in the most professional manner and wrote him a speeding ticket. He could have easily contributed to having this situation escalate but instead he defused it with zen-like calmness. What a great guy  

Here, I 100% agree with you, kill them with kindness always seems to work best. Unfortunately it doesn't always work. The situations could have been completely different before the videos started, too.

[Edited 2011-07-18 16:02:26]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8476 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

"Officer, please don't tase me illegally. Or I will be forced to tase you back."

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
how acceptive some people seem to be of authoritative force and ignore the most basic principles of a democracy.

Neither the US nor the UK are a democracy. The US is a constituional republic, and the UK is a parliamentary monarchy. In fact, excluding the NSA and their dumb tricks, US citizens have FAR more rights than UK citizens. In the UK, you can be stopped and searched for absolutely no reason. In the US, probable cause is necessary to even initiate a stop... and believe when I say I'm against any abuse of that system.

But when probable cause is established, and someone is obviously committing a crime and then refuses commands, they deserve whatever it takes to get them to comply.

A decent society simply cannot exist without a balace of rule of law and individual rights. If you refuse authroitative force in the proper situations, you descend into anarchy.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2830 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting something (Thread starter):
I'd like to get some international opinions in on the usage of tasers.

There have been many many problems with the usage of tasers in Australia.

A quick Google search brings up multiple pages of news reports, all to do with people dying as a result of being tasered, this, IMHO, is reason enough to ban any further use of them in Australia.

Australia’s first Taser death occurred in 2002 when a 56-year-old NSW man died 12 days after he was shocked with a Taser. The man received three Taser shocks after threatening police with a frying pan. According to his death certificate, the man died of a heart attack. He is said to have had a pre-existing heart condition and hepatitis C, and to have been a schizophrenic.

Underlying/pre existing condition or not, the taser was responsible for his death, had it NOT been used, he would still be alive.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):

A quick Google search brings up multiple pages of news reports, all to do with people dying as a result of being tasered, this, IMHO, is reason enough to ban any further use of them in Australia.

Because reporting about the hundreds of thousands of people being tased and not suffering ANY ill effects doesn't sell papers.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
had it NOT been used, he would still be alive.

Oh, you're a medical professional? You can accurately diagnose that a taser shot can cause heart failure 12 days later? Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

And had the taser not been used, the officers would have put themselves at risk of hep-C, they most likely would have had a long struggle with the man, and the man probably still would have died from the stress of being in a fight.

Or would you also suggest that the police not bother trying to arrest someone because they're resisting? After all, had they not even bothered to show up...



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2830 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Because reporting about the hundreds of thousands of people being tased and not suffering ANY ill effects doesn't sell papers.

Rubbish.
The papers are full of crime related arrests, every day of the week.Some are with tasers and some are not !

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Oh, you're a medical professional? You can accurately diagnose that a taser shot can cause heart failure 12 days later? Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

Funny thing don't you think, he was alright before he was tasered.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Even when the effects stop immediately when the current is removed?

50,000 volts and heart conditions don't go well together
BTW, you do not have to be a medical professional to work that one out do you ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
Or would you also suggest that the police not bother trying to arrest someone because they're resisting? After all, had they not even bothered to show up...

He had a frying pan as a weapon !
If law enforcement officer (and there was more then one) cant disarm a single person wielding a frying pan, then they really should look for another profession.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9285 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

Amazing. The guy offered to sign the ticket, after he realized that he cannot escape police brutality. This guy was an ordinary person, not violent, except if the line " I don't sign this" is considered violence.

I dont know what the procedures are in the US, is the siging of a traffic citation considered an acceptance of guilt or just an acknowledgement that the ticket was handed over and that the ticket could still be appealed in court?

If the matter is the case, alright, sign it and hand it over to the lawyer. Still, a citizen must have the right to say NO to a police officer. No police office should have the right to taser or otherwise harm a person that simply refuses to sign a document.

Such a siutuation would be unthinkable in Germany, here we could even call this cop an idiot, which this particular one certainly is, and the cop would not beat him up. The driver calling a cop an idiot would have to pay a nice heavy four digit fine, depending on his income, but he would not get arrested, nothing.

Ther's a clear difference, here, police is de-escalating situations, obviously in the US , police is escalating harmless situations like the one on the video. "Having fun", regardless if the officer had fun 8which he onbvously had, or whether it was a sarcastic remark that the driver had "fun" additionally escalated the situation. The cop should be sent to a shrink to get his psyche tested. He should not be released to the public in a uniform, not even on a leash.

To answer the question, in Germany, the use of taser weapons is very restricted and only allowed for use by SWAT teams in Bremen and a few other states. Not for regular police. use and possession by private persons is not allowed and would be considered as possession of an illegal weapon.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 17):
As law abiding citizens, why shouldn't we? What principles of democracy are at stake here? You seem to be already biased against officers and what they do to enforce the law, no matter what their actions are. Don't be so quick to point a finger, as others have illustrated you don't know what happened prior to the start of the video.

You are right in saying I don't know the whole story. But infering from the man's behavior throughout the entire video, and the reaction of the police officer, I'm unfortunately not given much room for speculation. The situation seems pretty clear to me. But, I want to note that I am saying that as a commentator only. As a judge, the officer has to be treated as innocent until his guilt is proven, free of doubt.

And the principle of 'freedom of citizens' is at stake. The cop didn't do his job, or enforced a fine. He was bullying the guy because he was afraid the guy was making fun of him. The cop didn't want to be made fun of and wanted to teach the guy a lesson, intimidate him, maybe even punish him and show him who has the upper hand. As a cop, you can't have emotions. You're a uniform, you're a functionary. It doesn't matter how you, personally, feel about things. If you take things personally and let stuff get to you, you chose the wrong job.

And yes. People should always be extremely wary of the institution of the police. They should have as much power as needed, but as little power as possible. And I can see how some people misunderstand such statements as me advocating for anarchy. Which clearly, I am not. But you have to have principles and there are only two ways of looking at it. Either, you assume everybody is innocent until proven guilty, or they're already guilty until proven innocent. It's the prosecuters job to prove your guilt, not the people's obligation to justify themselves before others.

What the cop did was unlawful. He would have had to read out the guy's rights and explain to him the consequences of not signing the ticket. He missed to do that, therefore everything after that didn't happen on legal grounds. As a citizen, I should not have to be grateful I haven't been put to jail yet because I am just a maggot and the officer is my overlord. Maybe that's the case in North Korea. But not in a state of law.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 17):
if we feel an injustice has occurred during the course of whatever events transpire, deal with it appropriately when the time arises.

But injustice such as shown in the video should not be happening in the first place. And even if you do have a chance to appeal your case in court, what are the chances you can prove your case unless you've conveniently videotaped it? And what have cops that have been found guilty of police brutality been charged with? Most of them don't even go to jail because the loss of their career is deemed punishment enough by many courts.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):

"Officer, please don't tase me illegally. Or I will be forced to tase you back."

As concise as this line appear at first glance, this is (if I understand you right) exactly what my problem is all about. It is simply intolerable that citizens are left at the cop's mercy, no matter how arbitrarily he chooses to enforce his will.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
US citizens have FAR more rights than UK citizens. In the UK, you can be stopped and searched for absolutely no reason. In the US, probable cause is necessary to even initiate a stop... and believe when I say I'm against any abuse of that system.

You are absolutely right! And that's the reason why such incidents outrage me! America does have a great constitution and laws that protect their citizens and grant them their freedoms. However, there seems to be a vast discrepancy between ''what's on the paper'' and ''what happens in real life''.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 21):
A decent society simply cannot exist without a balace of rule of law and individual rights. If you refuse authroitative force in the proper situations, you descend into anarchy.

Why doesn't every country have the same problems then? Are Germany, France, Holland, Spain, Switzerland, Argentina, etc. anarchies?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 24):
He had a frying pan as a weapon !
If law enforcement officer (and there was more then one) cant disarm a single person wielding a frying pan, then they really should look for another profession.

I agree, but at least he could make his case stating that they were acting in self defense (however unjustified). The guy in the video did not even make any attempts of getting anywhere near the cop. He didn't even want to get out of the car lol It's bullying. Nothing less than that. And that has nothing to do with the profession of a police officer.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Ther's a clear difference, here, police is de-escalating situations, obviously in the US , police is escalating harmless situations like the one on the video.

I don't know if you're a spotter, but if you go take pictures at Ramstein Air Base it's only a matter of minutes before army personnell will approach you (behind the fence, where their jurisdiction ends) and command you to leave the place in a rather demanding voice. If you refuse, because you aren't doing anything illegal, all they have left is calling the German police. 9/10 times they won't even show up because they know there's nothing to be done, and if they do they ask for your ID and inform you that you cannot climb over the fence. That's all.

But we have to be careful not to stereotype Europe vs. the USA. I think it's always a matter of whom you ask, not so much where they live. The only difference is probably Germany's experience with a totalitarian police force not 70 years ago. When you talk to Germans about police and force, they don't think of a safer Germany, they think of George Orwell. Another reason could be the fact that the German crime rate is much lower than the crime rate in the USA. If you're afraid of criminals, but don't break the law yourself, you are much likelier to argue on behalf of police force. It serves your self interest (crime gets stopped easier, I, as a law abiding citizen, have nothing to be afraid of).

But that's a fallacy. We discuss principles here. And not hopes, wishes and dreams. People don't need to be kept on a short leash to behave. Grown ups are capable of disciplining themselves. It's not a coincidence that less people smoke weed in the Netherlands or Portugal than in countries where it's illegal.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
The cop should be sent to a shrink to get his psyche tested.

Indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
25 PanHAM : I am not a spotter but I have edged in my memory how US Air Force military police handled a guy on one of those open days at the FRA Air base, thatwa
26 Post contains links and images something : And had the officer, as required by law, informed him in a calmly manner that refusing to sign the citation would result in him getting arrested, he
27 NIKV69 : If you have refused to listen to a police officer you are not innocent anymore and have broken the law. The taser is a great tool which has probably
28 Post contains images PanHAM : good one, LOL what happens to the deaf? Will they be tasered till they can hear again? No offence and I don't mean you personally, but if someone wou
29 Flighty : What?? The law follows the law, not the person. If the officer is not acting legally then he's just a noisy problem, not anybody you need to comply w
30 DeltaMD90 : Because a deaf guy will just take it and not, gasp, say he's deaf? What you don't realize is at the DMV when you are getting your license, you are co
31 PanHAM : I do. I drove a lot of miles in the US, far more than 200K and never was stopped by a cop. No speeding and no parking ticket. Amazing, I even lived t
32 Post contains images Acheron : So, pointing out that this cop would rather pull out his taser like he is dealing with some junkie rather than calmly explain why he would have to ar
33 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I've never run into an unreasonable cop. I don't think this cop was "created," discretion in this case poor, perhaps, but the driver was being a douc
34 tugger : PanHAM, Archeron, can you please agree that the video is not showing the entire event and that we (you) do not actually know why the officer is react
35 Post contains links Flighty : Here's an incredible video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEN9d2wOdOc State Trooper (tries to?) arrest undercover sheriff's deputy. To me this is tho
36 something : ''He's a jackass, he had it coming'', is not a legal defense. Just some food for thought..
37 DeltaMD90 : But not signing the ticket is. A warning is only optional. I said personally I don't feel bad because the guy was a douche but once again: Driver did
38 Post contains links something : I don't know what the 'all' in the 'y'all' don't, but I for my part don't get why you claim what the officer did was legal. In Canada the law states
39 DeltaMD90 : If you resist arrest, tasers are authorized. That is US law, not Canadian law. That's not what you said before... ...but fine, I'll respond to what y
40 Post contains links tugger : While each police department will have different policies regarding "use of force", here is an excerpt from the SDPD policy: http://www.sandiego.gov/
41 something : Philosophical. Not societal. That would imply that everyone in the US agrees with you. ''We'' don't care about the laws in the USA. We don't care if
42 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : OK agreed Ok, guy chooses to speed. Guy chooses to be smartass. Guy chooses not to sign ticket. I don't call that helpless, I call it being an idiot,
43 something : I don't ''feel'' anything for the guy either and I can understand, on a human level, where your pissed-off-ness stems from. But those are, what I cal
44 DeltaMD90 : I read your post entirely. Like I try to say to everyone else I debate with, I respect your opinion, but I'm just gonna have to disagree. You used lo
45 Maverick623 : The problems arise when you view people who are obviously guilty of a crime as "innocent", and when you don't even know what's a crime and what's not
46 something : I don't even think we do. You want peace and public order. So do I. You think it takes a father-like figure to slap the silly kids on the wrist. And
47 DeltaMD90 : Well, I've worked with some jerks, I hardly trust people lol. Maybe it'll invalidate everything I said, but in 2 weeks, I'll have my degree in Crimin
48 something : You are oversimplifying things. Nobody wants to let criminals get away with what they did. The guy signed the ticket immediately when he was informed
49 GDB : Sure about that? Police in the UK are expected to exercise discretion and common sense. Not saying they all do, however its also about what, to use t
50 Aesma : Isn't like 1% of the US population in jail ? Or something to that regard, please don't nit-pick just get my general point.
51 tugger : What the heck, can't you both admit that you don't actually know enough about the actual circumstances of the actions in the video to be able to make
52 Maverick623 : If I was a cop, and I saw somebody commit a crime, they've already lost a certain amount of trust. And in the US, where guns are far more common than
53 TheCommodore : If your courts and jails are full, and such a large proportion of the U.S population enjoy residing there, then maybe law enforcement officers need m
54 TheCommodore : Astounding ! Your profile states that your a baggage handler, can you explain to us all here how that makes you anymore "qualified" than anyone else.
55 Maverick623 : Please note I was referring to the video the OP posted, and not anyone's opinion on overall taser use or police restraint tactics. But I'm glad that
56 PanHAM : who told yu that? Of course you can wear a cross. You can paint one on your forehead if you wish, police won't arrest you for that. well, we do not k
57 greasespot : I love how everyone is an expert on police use of force. Yet they have never faced down a person with a knife or bat or gun. They have never been in a
58 something : And the argument carousel keeps on spinning. NOBODY, and allow me to reiterate, NOBODY on here or anywhere else critisizes means of self defense. And
59 PanHAM : At least he got some money out of it and I hope he did not lose on the sale of the house. That story is another case that simply could not happen in
60 something : And that's the joke about it. It's illegal in the US too apparently and falls under the ''entrapment''. And that's my connection of this case to the
61 DeltaMD90 : In GA (not sure about other states but probably similar) only the State Patrol can pull you over for 1 over, everyone else is more than 10 over, and
62 something : Well, I'd go even further. I believe he deliberately set up the camera to play smartass. But questioning what an officer asks you to do and refusing
63 GDB : Maverick623, from your answers it seems that the gulf of rights across the Pond are not very different at all, in practicality. So you actually don't
64 PanHAM : As I said before, I never got a ticket in the states and i drove there first time in 1972 even had a NY state drivers licence then. I rented numerous
65 DeltaMD90 : The taser didn't come into play until after he refused to get out, but yes, I agree the cop was a bit trigger happy. Legal though. By all means, it s
66 something : First of all, sorry to hear about your bump in today. And to answer the question.. I am against tasers in general. Applying violence? If the situatio
67 DeltaMD90 : Haha, they hurt, just got zapped a few weeks ago in a training exercise. My question is what if he never got out of the car? Completely refused. How
68 Post contains links something : Bro, those are all ifs, buts and whens that were nowhere near the situation at hand. I am not arguing at all the police's hands should be tied and all
69 BMI727 : Not to mention that you have to wonder why he didn't want to get out of the car. Personally, I don't want to see a world where everything the police
70 something : What exactly is so threatening about sitting in a car?
71 BMI727 : Because the police officer walking up to your window has no idea what is in your car.
72 TheCommodore : Being a police officer has inherent risks, like having to jump into a fast running river to rescue somebody being swept away in a flood situation, th
73 BMI727 : Every cop knows that, but I'm not about to tell them they have to limit how they protect themselves because they might hurt someone's feelings.
74 PanHAM : Based on what goes on in the US may be. But violence creates violence, except that this driver was not violent. It is not the cop's fault that speedi
75 something : Which is not what happened in the video! The cop felt challenged by the 'smartassness' of the guy and didn't want to take that from him. There was no
76 MD11Engineer : This happened in imperial Russia, where the common jailing of a huge part of the population lead to a subculture of criminals who thought themselves
77 BMI727 : When standing next to a car, one has only a fairly limited view of what is going on inside the car. After all, the cop apparently didn't see the vide
78 PanHAM : So why don't they use a fishing hook then? And what suspect? The guy was speeding, nothing else. And what about non compliant? He agreed to sign the
79 GDB : Now that I can agree with, while it is debatable if Tasers are firearms substitute, (and how different UK forces deploy them seems to show it's also
80 MD11Engineer : There should be a whole range of different means of physical force to be used as the situation demands. Starting with simple wrestling and "come alon
81 TheCommodore : Not so much about , Just a little common every day courtesy, that way no body's feelings get hurt, and the world rocks on Safer for who exactly ? Once
82 BMI727 : The officer. Yes, but he won't be able to grab a gun or a knife and probably won't be able to fight back much while they are doing it.
83 something : I am not even arguing with this. But the guy in the video was anything but violent. He didn't even get insulting, or aggressive, or anything of the s
84 Maverick623 : Why would you WANT to argue with a cop, who has explained to you why you need to sign a ticket? Let's try this again: Just before the driver refuses
85 PanHAM : Well, you don't listen what I say. Not in the US. Here in germany, it is my civil right to argue with a cop without getting tasered, beaten up or sho
86 something : Kudos, for never giving up my friend! The educational fight against windmills.
87 Geezer : Whew ! After reading all 86 posts, My head is "spinning" ! Who to agree with? Who to disagree with? First of all, as many have made numerous posts, I
88 Maverick623 : And your ignorant to American law. So we're even. No, you really can't. Under US law, once the officer finds probable cause that a crime has been com
89 something : Look, why I exited this thread is simple. We don't find common ground to base our argumentation on. Even if the American law gave the officer every r
90 Geezer : Maverick; You can lead horse to water, but you can't make him drink; I'm afraid this horse just isn't thirsty ! I think the difference in planets may
91 PanHAM : very early in this thread I said that I never got stopped by police in the many years I spent in America, either lkiving there or on the usually 2-3
92 Post contains images Maverick623 : I think that's the other way around, because: It IS resisting. Anytime an officer gives you a command to affect a lawful arrest, and you refuse, that
93 something : He signed the damn citation man! He was being annoying at first but then signed that effin thing! That is not being difficult or being potentially da
94 Maverick623 : I'm glad you're going to harp on that 1/2 second of the video, and throw away the other 2 minutes where he announced his intention to give the cop a
95 something : Read §112 and §127 of the German Strafprozessordnung or just save yourself the time and stay in the fantasy world you apparently choose to live in.
96 PanHAM : Maverick, or shall I call you Sgt. Tackleberry, you compare apples and peaches. Now you are talking about a stolen car. let's stay with the traffic /
97 BMI727 : Except for the video, that is exactly how it would work in America. Unless you make it a problem... And it is the same here, unless you refuse to sig
98 BMI727 : Probably, as long as you don't get violent or resist arrest. So German police will mail a summons to the offender?
99 PanHAM : Not the police but usually the administrative office in charge. usually, there are one or two offices per state who handle that centralized. They wil
100 something : In the US however, insulting a police officer doesn't constitute a breach of law and falls under the freedom of speech. Not sure where exactly the li
101 Maverick623 : You mean a guy who states his intention to "have fun", refuses to sign the ticket, and then refuses to get out of the car when lawfully told to. In t
102 something : It's not like what you say it's wrong. It just doesn't apply in this situation. My uncle and cousin both agreed. It's more along the lines of ''time
103 Maverick623 : Yes, it absolutely does. Pulling the taser was not a disciplinary action, it was a defensive action. Once the driver got out, the taser went away, an
104 Post contains links something : Due to the very graphic nature of the images, I'm just going to provide links to another story of police officers defending themselves. It's not alarm
105 Maverick623 : Excellent. Convicting people before basic toxicology tests are completed. Did you miss the part where 2 officers were also "moderately" injured?
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