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The Absurdity Of Mexican Justice  
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1851 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3169 times:
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I have to admit I'm sitting here feeling sick, disgusted and not a little bit outraged.

Why? Per this article I read on MSN , a 14 year old Mexican-American kid living in Mexico was working for the cartels as a hitman and got caught. He was charged and convicted with four counts of murder plus kidnapping and other charges. Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong. If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels. Sure, the money is glamorous, but we need to instill a sense of fear in these kids that tells them that the 3000 dollars they make from the cartel won't do them any good in prison.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but something needs to be done about the absurd notion that someone can kill as many people as they like and only recieve a slap on the wrist because they're under eighteen.

The sad thing is that these kids seem to place more value on money than they do on human life, which leads me to wonder where the parents went wrong in raising kids who are nothing more than little gun toting psychopaths. I can tell you, when I was 14, no amount of money in the world could have convinced me to take another life. Maybe I'm just unusual.

All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.
Rant over.


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Meh.

Mexico is a sovereign nation. Their laws are their laws, they make them in accordance with the priorities they set.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3121 times:
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Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

No, the sick , disgusting, outrageous and absurd part is this:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

A 14 year old is not an adult, how does it benefit anyone to put a 14 year old in prison for the rest of his life.

BTW , why haven't you posted a link to the story?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong.

Because Mexico is a sovereign nation. Besides, the root of Mexico's problems right now is not the lack of adequate jail sentences.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels.

You think a person who is capable of committing such atrocities is impressed by a jail sentence? The price of life is cheap in Mexico. That goes for the life of the victims as much as for the lives of the drug lords.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
we need to instill a sense of fear

They can and do ''get hit'' by rivaling gangs all the time. They are more than willing to put their own life on the line for a few bucks.. and a jail sentence is going to make them change their mind?

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
which leads me to wonder where the parents went wrong in raising kids who are nothing more than little gun toting psychopaths

You live in a much too romantic world. Their parents are just as messed up and probably encourage their kids to do such things. There are people that sell their own children into slavery, child prostitution or even to have their organs harvested. Encouraging your son to become a well-paid hitman is a rather positive ambition in those circles.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I can tell you, when I was 14, no amount of money in the world could have convinced me to take another life.

And now it can? Because if so, the cartels are hiring!

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.

The US gov't can pay the Mexican gov't more than what the drug bosses do. Problem solved.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7592 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison

U.S. laws apply in the U.S. Mexican laws apply in Mexico. Different countries, different systems. I personally find it very questionable from a human rights' perspective that minors can be tried and sentenced as adults. But hey, what do I know? I only have a law degree with honors from the law school of a leading Jesuit university in Mexico and an LL.M. degree from the University of Chicago Law School, and am a partner with a top tier law firm in Mexico.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system

For the very same reason your neighbor can't come inside your house and tell you how to shag your spouse, raise your kids, feed your pets or park your car.

Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace. Quoted from Mexico's first indigenous President in the second half of the XIXth century. But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I'm not sure what the solution is, but something needs to be done about the absurd notion that someone can kill as many people as they like and only recieve a slap on the wrist because they're under eighteen

Yes, parents in the first place and the education system in the second place can do something about this: it is called prevention through education

According to the article I am quoting below, this kid is an American citizen. Maybe we should look for the failed upbringing of this kid in his country of citizenship?

Now, if you wonder what the solution is in a bigger scheme, I think part of it is in the hands of the U.S. government. The U.S. could do more to stop the smuggling of guns to Mexico. http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/26/f...icated-in-gun-smuggling-operation/ It is very well known that the weapons that cartels use to commit their crimes come illegally into Mexico from across the border.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
BTW , why haven't you posted a link to the story?

Here it is:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/bloo...actually-14-year-old-american-boy/

The kid declared: "I did it drugged and under threat that if I didn’t, they would kill me”. I am not sure if this is true or not, but I just think it is very easy and also very dangerous to pass judgment upon an unknown person without knowing all of the circumstances surrounding the known facts.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

I am quite sure 'justice' will happen within weeks even in what will be a kid's jail with him dead by either others from rival gangs or even the guards killing him for money for the gangs who people he killed.

A growing problem around the world is dealing with younger minor aged persons doing major crimes. Sometimes they are intentionally chosen to do deadly crimes due to them less likely to face long jail time. There is also the collapsing moral and social standards that has ended a more innocent child and teen lifestyle. Graphic Videogames, TV shows and movies have also desensitized kids from death and killing as well as glorifying violence. There is also the desire for money to get 'stuff' or even for themselves or their families to survive so they and their families compromise by rationalizing the committing of deadly crimes.

Here in the USA over the last 20 years we have changed our laws to deal with this change in society by putting in place ones that treat murder by young offenders as young as 13-14 as adults and with penalties including life sentences and in segregated areas of adult prisons. In Mexico, they still want to treat children as children, probably in part from pressure from the RC Church and many in the poor and working class communities who would be effected as well as going along with international treaties. Of course, the USA either doesn't sign such treaties or disobeys them anyway due to 'sovereignty' rights due to our 'special' circumstances.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
Here in the USA over the last 20 years we have changed our laws to deal with this change in society by putting in place ones that treat murder by young offenders as young as 13-14 as adults and with penalties including life sentences and in segregated areas of adult prisons. In Mexico, they still want to treat children as children, probably in part from pressure from the RC Church and many in the poor and working class communities who would be effected as well as going along with international treaties. Of course, the USA either doesn't sign such treaties or disobeys them anyway due to 'sovereignty' rights due to our 'special' circumstances.

You say that the exposure of children to violent media content is in part to blame, then say in the next sentence that the US has adapted their laws to that. Laws like this one?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-27/u...-makers-interactive-games?_s=PM:US

And treating minors as minors has nothing to do with the church. It is a judicial principle. Minors have not yet developed the same intellectual maturity to understand the consequences, severity and ramifications of their actions. Same principle as pleading insanity. Or why a premeditated murder entails a different sentence than involuntary manslaughter.

What matters is what went on in your head when you did it and the circumstances under which it happened. The crime itself is secondary.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this .........................................................

NorthstarBoy;

The key words here being,................why can't the U.S. Government pressure Mexico to reform it's.........................

It would be about like stacking "BB's"; or trying to thread a needle with a wet noodle; the person attempting it would be told to "get lost" !

Believe me, stories like that affect me ( and many others ) just like they affect you; but we must "suck it up" and remain realistic; That doesn't mean we must "forget about it". When I read a story like that, I think, something must be done; I also think, tomorrow, or the next day, the people who hired this "mini-assassin" have seen that it "works".........so day after tomorrow we can expect two dozen more just like him, maybe even a few 13 yr old's. It's how people like this think.

But what to do ? I'm a great believer, for every problem, there is a solution; it may take a while to find an appropriate solution, we may be obliged to try many solutions before finding the one that "works", but ultimately there IS a solution.

I was about 11 yrs old while we were fighting the "enemy" in the S. Pacific during WW 2; The "enemy" was very "resourceful", and they would "try" ANYTHING to kill Americans; at one point, they came up with a "tactic"..........all of our bases, camps, etc, were obviously patrolled by many sentries; "They" would creep up, observe the "situation", and when "they" saw a "handful" of Marines, two very young "children" ( some as young as 10 yrs old ) would come out of the jungle with their hand over their heads, wearing little more than a diaper, acting very frightened, and wanting to "surrender"; it actually worked a few times; when they got near the sentries, ( who were obviously armed with rifles and Thompsons ), one "youth" would suddenly bend over, and the other would commence blasting away with the machine gun strapped the other one's back. At that time, Marine combat training had not "thought" to train Marines to shoot 10 year olds; I might add........that quickly changed !

War is hell, as they say; a bullet from a 10 yr old is just as deadly as one from a 25 yr old; in war, it's KILL or BE KILLED; preferably, kill "him" before "he" kills you. So, our very first step is, we must "define" our present "status"; when armed assassins cross international borders, with the express intent to kill people on the other side.........it's called WAR ! That's the very first thing which must be made very clear.

So........remembering this "precedent", what are we to do ? We don't have our Marines on the Mexican border, ( at least not yet ), but we do have a lot of very fine Border Patrol Officers there, and they only have ONE big problem; it's called "leadership"; believe me, the Border Patrol "leadership" locally is very capable; How do I know this ? ( I'm always asked for my "sources"; here they are; a year ago in May, I attended a wedding on South Padre Island, Texas. The bride ( and her entire extended family ) are all 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Mexican-Americans; I am not at liberty to discuss the groom, but suffice to say, he is "very close to me"; I became very well acquainted with many of the relatives; to make a short story even shorter........I liked them, and they liked me ! I met about a half dozen "folks" who worked for the Border Patrol, several who worked for "I.C.E.", and one young man who worked for the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture ! Keep in mind, out of 150 people at this wedding, exactly 5 were "Anglo"; the rest are Americans of Mexican decent, all were multi-lingual, and all shared my views on "emigration" to this country; you do it LEGAL. just as some of them, and many of their relatives had. The day before the "big event", I accompanied several fellows across the border to purchase "beverages"; I personally met the Border Patrol, and the folks who "check things" both ways; it was a very UNIQUE experience. I must briefly "touch" on a very "sensitive" subject; we didn't talk a whole lot about "politics", but enough was said that I gathered this much; almost all were members of a "different" political party than I am. ( I was aware of this before I left Indiana ); but they all shared my "views" on, shall we say, the pitiful LACK of leadership from the VERY TOP. ( If you get my drift )

So, back to our mini-assassin problem; assuming we presently had "sufficient" leadership from "the very top", ( or assuming we acquire such leadership in the near future, I believe this problem could be greatly alleviated by "border diplomacy"........say, a "mutual-aid" agreement, kind of a "you want this, and we want that" sort of thing.

Let's face it...........we are not going to send our esteemed Secy. of State down to Mexico and start ordering them to "do as we say"; and we are sure not going to start dropping bombs on Mexico; ( anyone attempting that can expect my fervent opposition ! ) But it CAN be accomplished; and it's all just a matter of "leadership".

Thank you for reading;

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19934 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):

Why? Per this article I read on MSN , a 14 year old Mexican-American kid living in Mexico was working for the cartels as a hitman and got caught. He was charged and convicted with four counts of murder plus kidnapping and other charges. Now here's the the sick, disgusting, outrageous and absurd part: because he was a minor he was charged as a juvenile and will spend....get this....three years in prison. For comparison, under the US system, he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

Has it occurred to you that he may have had very little choice? He's 14, so clearly he's been groomed for this for a while. It's not as if he was a grown man who decided to take this up as a career. Why waste a life when he could be reformed?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
For the very same reason your neighbor can't come inside your house and tell you how to shag your spouse, raise your kids, feed your pets or park your car.

Ah, but that's what many Americans would like to do. Especially the "how to shag your spouse" bit.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6353 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3006 times:
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Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong. If enough of these Jr hitmen are sent to prison for the rest of their lives....no chance to get out...ever, it might make other kids stop and think about going to work for the cartels. Sure, the money is glamorous, but we need to instill a sense of fear in these kids that tells them that the 3000 dollars they make from the cartel won't do them any good in prison.

1. Last week a friend of mine, a good police officer, was killed by a drug gang member on a shoot out. He had taken his bullet vest off for a few mins. as he was too hot.

2. Yesterday, as I dropped off another friend at MTY´s airport mid afternoon I was almost run off the road by a convoy of heavily armed soldiers rushing to board an Apache or Black Hack helicopter (I´m not an expert on helos) as reinforcements rushing to a battle between soldiers and Drug cartel members taking place in the Laredo highway that resulted in 5 hitmen killed.

3. I have not been able to visit my father´s gravesite for two years because getting on the highways to Tamaulipas State out of Monterrey is just too risky.

4. Every night my brother comes home from the bar he owns and manages I can´t fall asleep until I hear him arrive safely, and you have no idea how my heart races if he is not home and the phone rings at some late hour?

And you have the gall, you dare, criticize our justice system when the real reason for all the death, fear and destruction this stupid drug war has caused in the last four years is the insatiable drug demand of American citizens and their failure of your institutions to control the smuggling of guns from your country into Mexico? Fix your own problems first, then start giving advice to other nations. And please, do read about the concept of "Sovereignity"

Have you even given some thought to the fact that that the reason the Cartels are using young teens to kill is because the war is actually being won, and the Cartels are running out of professional, well trained hit men?

Have you forgotten about that fiasco that was "Operation Fast and Furious" which has actually cost a few dead among American agents? It would be interesting to get to know the cowboy at the ATF bureau that came up with that brilliant idea.

But the problem won´t go away, you see, because nothing is being done in the US to curb drug consumption or gun smuggling. Drug consumption is actually glorified in many movies and TV shows. I understand free speech. So I won´t say anything about what I think about free speech in your country, you are a sovereign nation, after all, but the fact that shows like "Breaking Bad" exist and are so popular makes no sense to me. Shows like "Two and a half men" that draw laughter time and again every time the fat kid and his friend score and get high with pot, frankly surprise me. It´s all fun and games until someone gets hurt, and guess what, both the US and Mexico are hurting.

The problem is just moving South of our border. Good luck to Guatemala and El Salvador because the cartels are setting up shop there.

Next time you write such a near sighted post, do some research about what you are writing and keep in mind what EddieDude says in his most clear and illustrating post.

Besides, you know what? I´d much rather have 13-14 year olds go to Juve for 3 or 4 years no matter their crimes (unless it´s proven they´re mentally insane, in which case they will end up institutionalized after they reach 18) than have a barbaric law that allows those kids to be tried as adults and be locked up for the rest of their lives. And from what I´ve read, in other sources, it´s not clear he´s getting out becauase at 18 he´s going to be extradited to the US.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

I actually read today that they might add "crimes against humanity" to the charges so he might get 30.

[Edited 2011-07-26 22:00:09]

[Edited 2011-07-26 22:02:42]

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2973 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):

I'm sorry to hear all that AR385. I lived some time in Puebla and though crime stricken, the region is not really affected by the drug wars. Neither is Veracruz, where I used to spend time at the beaches (love it there, btw). So it would be painting with too broad a brush to just say ''Mexico= drug wars''. They are concentrated around the Mexican-US border for ''logistical'' reasons, obviously.

Mexico is a poor country and people have to understand that. Getting an education and getting a decent job is just not really in the cards for some people and as long as there's money to be made with drugs, prostitution, violence and other entry-requirement free branches, that's where these people'll go.

We as a people need to act pro- and not reactive. We can't wait until something happens and then be all surprised that it did. Venezuela used to be a rather decent place and look what's become of it. And as you rightly point out, that violence and filth is now spreading to Guatemala and El Savador. But instead of just standing by and watching, why doesn't the world police USA intervene there? Why don't they support these economies, these schools and universities and increase the standard of living there that a career in the drug-business doesn't even present an alternative to the people anymore?

There's probably no money to be made with education and support. And I am pretty certain that the CIA does have their hands in this. They used to let Pablo Escobar's planes fly into the US and in return for that little negligence kept the airplanes. They pressured Jamaica to outlaw marijuana, so they could control the Jamaican marjuana export and make their cut with it. You can't tell me all these guns and ammunition, all these drugs etc. find their way into the USA without there being a leak in the system? We need more Wikileaks..

Unfortunately, I don't see a short term solution to this problem. Too many things need to be changed. Keeping children in jail longer isn't one of them though.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinejcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):

Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace. Quoted from Mexico's first indigenous President in the second half of the XIXth century. But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Ugh, right. Mexico has such a lack of corruption and should be a model to us in terms of government. Mexicans risk their life traveling through deserts to make it to Los Estados Unidos because Mexico has unlimited opportunities.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 961 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I have to admit I'm sitting here feeling sick, disgusted and not a little bit outraged.


Well this BBC news won't make you feel any better then...

News video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7870845.stm

"Finland has only three young offenders behind bars because it believes in education for youths that commit crimes, rather than punishment. Alternatively Britain has more than 3,000 under 18-year-olds in custody."

[Edited 2011-07-27 04:59:41]

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7377 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
A 14 year old is not an adult, how does it benefit anyone to put a 14 year old in prison for the rest of his life.
Quoting something (Reply 3):
You think a person who is capable of committing such atrocities is impressed by a jail sentence? The price of life is cheap in Mexico. That goes for the life of the victims as much as for the lives of the drug lords.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
I personally find it very questionable from a human rights' perspective that minors can be tried and sentenced as adults.

So the other side of the coin, what exactly should be done, these kids do the same thing with guns that adults do, the effects are the same, the victims are the same, but the offender is different.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
Yes, parents in the first place and the education system in the second place can do something about this: it is called prevention through education

How do you retrocatively be a parent to this kid, if you cannot then you are looking at two seperate issues, one to address the lost generation and the other to prevent the loss of an additional generation, attempting to do two in one is probably where the problem lies.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
Minors have not yet developed the same intellectual maturity to understand the consequences, severity and ramifications of their actions. Same principle as pleading insanity. Or why a premeditated murder entails a different sentence than involuntary manslaughter.

What matters is what went on in your head when you did it and the circumstances under which it happened. The crime itself is secondary.

Obviously the issue resides with society, all the items listed mean nothing to the offender.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Why waste a life when he could be reformed?

Based on the high rate of repeat offenders this is not really happening. Let me clarify, in my opinion this is not like religion, if 10 are released and one goes good the angels rejoice, the civilian authorities are about the majority not the success of the one.

Quoting something (Reply 11):
Mexico is a poor country and people have to understand that.

Quite likely the heart of the issue, Mexico is a wealthy country like a number of countries in South and Central America, unfortunately, the dispersion of wealth and its attainment is not something anyone has been able to achieve, even Venezuela with all its oil wealth has a population that is struggling.

A larger question would be how Europe handles its drug problems, there are drug trades on either side of the Atlantic, Europe's main suppliers are not Mexico or the Caribbean, so how do they deal with their issues, perhaps a lesson can be learned?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2846 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
But it seems some Americans have the absurd notion that their government's role is to push other countries to model their laws and systems in a manner that is convenient to the interests of the U.S.A. or that conforms to the beliefs of Americans.

Part of a great post ED. I guess some Mexicans might say pity countries cannot chose their neighbours. Wonder where all this pressure to sell drugs come from for Mexico?    If the physicians could heal themselves (no not a comment about Doc L, but the rather broader philosophical sigh!).


User currently offlinecaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):

So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

But no one seems to want to question Norwegian laws, it is all about the black sheep Mexico for some Americans (especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

Signed,
A non-Mexican living in Mexico..



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system so that when punks like this are caught committing multiple homicides, plus abductions and other crimes, they can look forward to spending the rest of their natural lives behind bars where they belong.

IF anything it should be Mexico pressuring the US government to do something about consumption, not the other way around.

Millions of Americans are having fun getting high on whatever it is they like to get high with at the expense of thousands of lives south of the border, and I mean EVERYWHERE south of the border, not just Mexico.

Besides, the US legal system is arguably even more f'ed up. A mom that clearly murdered her child is set free yet some parents that had a few naked pics of their baby child taken at the beach get thrown in jail on charges for child pornography. Seriously? I don't know of ANY parent that does not have at least one picture of their naked babies.   

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
All I know for sure is that something's got to be done.

Legalize drugs. You kill the demand, you kill the production.

People that think otherwise should refer to the history of the Prohibition Era and study gang activity/violence/deaths before and after said time.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
an Apache

No Apaches in Mexico, only a handful of Black Hawks, which only the Mexican special forces use, but I think you probably saw a Huey, of which Mexico has tons of them.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):

Have you even given some thought to the fact that that the reason the Cartels are using young teens to kill is because the war is actually being won, and the Cartels are running out of professional, well trained hit men?

Precisely. The Nazis did the exact same thing during the end of WW2, they were sending up barely teenaged Nazi youths on Messerschmidts, granted they were little more than canon fodder.

Quoting captaink (Reply 16):

(especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

Signed,
A non-Mexican living in Mexico..

Which is 90% of the US population.   

This non-Mexican that lived in Mexico for 20 years agrees wholeheartedly.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6353 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
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Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):
No Apaches in Mexico, only a handful of Black Hawks, which only the Mexican special forces use, but I think you probably saw a Huey, of which Mexico has tons of them.

This is the Helicopter that the soldiers boarded and took off, right over my head:




User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
This is the Helicopter that the soldiers boarded and took off, right over my head:

Ah so you did indeed see a Black Hawk. Lucky you, they are rare.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3385 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
So, my wonderment is, why cant the US government pressure Mexico to reform it's system

Can Canada pressure the US to change their pot laws most people think those are pretty retarded. The US would not tolerate another country pressuring them the same way like this so suck it up, different country different laws.

Quoting captaink (Reply 16):
But no one seems to want to question Norwegian laws, it is all about the black sheep Mexico for some Americans (especially the ones who have NO IDEA what´s happening south of their border).

The issue really isn't the law in Norway as much as the want for this one extremely rare tragic incident to be treated differently than a simple murder



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7592 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 12):
Mexico has such a lack of corruption and should be a model to us in terms of government. Mexicans risk their life traveling through deserts to make it to Los Estados Unidos because Mexico has unlimited opportunities.

I am sorry, but I fail to see where I or anyone else has suggested that the Mexican government is a model that the U.S. government should follow. More importantly, I fail to see how your irony contributes to this discussion.

If you disagree with the "Among individuals, as among nations..." statement, well, then basically you disagree with a principle of international public law, and you are absolutely entitled to do that. Not much I can do about that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
I guess some Mexicans might say pity countries cannot chose their neighbours.

Actually, the saying goes "Poor Mexico, so close to the United States and so far from God". Disclaimer: Before I get attacked, I did not make this up and I don't go down life saying this every time; it is just what people say in Mexico about our relationship with the U.S.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

I read in the paper today that some fraudulent car dealer was sentenced to 9280 years in prison and a $230 000. Don't know if I got the numbers straight but it was somewhere in that neighborhood. A fool who says Mexico lacks ''drastic punishments'' lol


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
he'd be charged as an adult and if convicted would spend the rest of his life in prison.

Life imprisonment for minors is often considered a human rights violation.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 7):
So what. The Norway shooter will be free in 21 years. And he was fully cognizant of what he was doing. Their country, their rules.

His sentence will be extended 5 years at a time once the 21 years are up and could conceivably be extended for life. But the US legal system is nonetheless overly harsh.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
2. Yesterday, as I dropped off another friend at MTY´s airport mid afternoon I was almost run off the road by a convoy of heavily armed soldiers rushing to board an Apache or Black Hack helicopter (I´m not an expert on helos) as reinforcements rushing to a battle between soldiers and Drug cartel members taking place in the Laredo highway that resulted in 5 hitmen killed.

Mexico is facing a huge problem. This thread kind of suggests that Mexico is not being tough enough on crime. I would however contend that they are being immensely tough on crime. They have deployed the army all over Mexico to fight the violence. However the problem is huge and also the corruption is huge. But they are extremely serious about fighting crime.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7377 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 20):
Can Canada pressure the US to change their pot laws most people think those are pretty retarded.

Well they are working on the death penalty laws so why not try for pot? Imagine if Canada's conditions for returning pot smokers to the US was a maximum of 3 months sentence or no extradition?

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 23):
However the problem is huge and also the corruption is huge. But they are extremely serious about fighting crime.

A good historical question would be how did the problem get so large that the Army has to be deployed because the police cannot cope, was it ignored because everyone thought it was someone else's problem? Police forces are not infiltrated and undermined overnight, nor local politicians.


25 EddieDude : It was a combination of things. It was indeed ignored because the cartels had sort of marked their territories and did not disturb each other (and mu
26 Post contains links Marcus : Here are a few sick, disgusting and outrageous for you.... Mentally ill man executed in the US... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3374831.stm Lis
27 homeland545 : AR385: i kinda know what you go through, its sad and upsetting...im currently in culiacan and travel up and down sinaloa..i have to be carful driving,
28 Baroque : Pay out on that. At least while you have a sense of humour, there must be hope!! Amen, but at least quite a few on a.net from N of the border seem to
29 par13del : Well there is another side to that coin, in the Bahamas we were usually just a transshipment point of drugs into the US, our government did not try t
30 Baroque : From what one reads, at the least the Mexicans would be grateful to be given the choice between those outcomes????
31 Post contains links something : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuMMaEaCJtI&feature=player_embedded http://bcove.me/y2bmfnpk So much about the call for longer jail sentences, and
32 goblin211 : To put it bluntly, there's a reason why tourists go to only certain parts of Mexico where all the tourism is and rarely if ever venture off into all t
33 GBLKD : Hmmmm, thread is running for over 3 days and the O.P. hasn't been back yet.
34 Marcus : That is true for virtually all countries I have been to....
35 par13del : Dates back many moons, previously tourism was about folks visiting countries to see how the locals live and experience a different culture. Today wit
36 AR385 : Jamaica comes to mind...
37 Marcus : I guess he is somewhere licking his wounds.....
38 NorthstarBoy : Those who are so quick to condemn me, do you really think it's okay that he's only going to jail for 3 years? keep in mind he killed 7 people. It does
39 AR385 : That is your opinion. As such I respect it. I disagree with it, but I respect it. I also think that if after all the responses that you have received
40 EddieDude : Wow! Spoken without any hesitation as if the U.S. was corruption free! Come on! Corruption exists in most places, and the U.S. is one of them. There
41 mham001 : Most or all countries I have been to were the other way around. There were some small pockets that were better left unvisited but the vast majority o
42 Post contains links AR385 : http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/N...hild-Prostitution-in-US-Expanding/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w...ren-of-the-night-chi_b_115348.html ht
43 Post contains links mham001 : I don't see anything there about complicity with public officials. Yes, child prostitution exists, you claimed without source You have still not prov
44 Post contains links AR385 : http://www.turtlebayandbeyond.org/20...th-prostitution-starts-with-obama/ http://www.northstarinitiative.org/thelawoftheland.htm Excerpts: "In additio
45 Marcus : Survey said! {{BUZZER}}....you did not understand. I was responding to the fact that regardless of what country you are in, tourists seem to go to th
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