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American Justice System Laughing Stock?  
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2679 times:

Get ready for it, because with the dismissal of the DSK case, it is already being written about around the world.

Brings back the issue of the ''american'' perp-walk. Isn't time to end this ridiculous practice by police departments? In this country you are supposed to be deemed innocent until proven otherwise. These perp walks for the 24 hour media are abusive to the suspect, which as we have seen may not always be guilty.

And let's not kid anyone: if an American had been treated in such a manner in another western justice system, we would have dissed it all over. Look at the Amanda Knox case, or Aruba with Natalie Halloway.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:07:18]

84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Get ready for it, because with the dismissal of the DSK case, it is already being written about around the world.

That case being dismissed is a great moment for American Justice. It was obviously a frame up or a consentual encounter oppurtunist. Whatever the case it was a loser and to go to trial would have been a disaster.

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Brings back the issue of the ''american'' perp-walk. Isn't time to end this ridiculous practice by police departments? In this country you are supposed to be deemed innocent until proven otherwise. These perp walks for the 24 hour media are abusive to the suspect, which as we have seen may not always be guilty.

The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement. It's the media's fault. All a police department can do is try to walk people out the back. You can't prevent the media and people from being present at a courthouse. If you try to inhibit the media you will be hit with lawsuits and they will claim their rights are being violated. I don't like the perp walk either but what can you do? retrofit all courts and police stations with underground parking areas and donate SUVS with tinted windows?

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:21:11]

User currently offlinebjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 327 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

I have to agree with you.
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk.
I don't know if it's to keep the 24 hour news happy, or because your DA system is so politicized and a stepping stone to elected office but either way it does the US no favours.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.

Before this anti US rant thread gets locked lets clear up some of the fallacies. If we trying to do an imitation of a banana republic we would try to conrol the press and stop them from covering big cases such as DSK. We aren't we are the most free nation and as a result have a press that can treat the movements of a person accused as a crime in this manner.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk

Again this is the PRESS. Not our justice system. Can you stop the US bashing long enough to grasp the facts.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
I don't know if it's to keep the 24 hour news happy, or because your DA system is so politicized and a stepping stone to elected office but either way it does the US no favours.

Now you are just not making sense. You aren't implying the DA should have taken this case to trial are you? If you are then you don't understand justice or fairness. You seem to be just venting about something. This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved. The case would have been lost so why go ahead?

In the US you need evidence. A he said she said case with a woman with no credibility caught on the phone telling somebody she stands to make a ton of money on this case. You would prosecute?


User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1259 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
That case being dismissed is a great moment for American Justice. It was obviously a frame up or a consentual encounter oppurtunist. Whatever the case it was a loser and to go to trial would have been a disaster.

I agree with you that the case was a loser, and that's why it's not going to go to trial. I don't agree at all about your other statements, which are honestly kind of offensive. You have no access to any evidence and can't prove what you're saying.

I believe that this was not consensual - but I have no way to prove that, just like the DA. But I also think that her history makes her a very poor witness against somebody who is a very powerful, respected, known-all-over-the-world person. But he himself would make a poor witness if called to testify in his own defense.

All this in mind, I don't see how this would make the American Justice System a laughing stock. It isn't like the Jose Pedilla case, which, while Pedilla is a legitimate terrorist, blatantly violated our own legal principles and existing legal system. I'm okay with protecting people from terrorists but we shouldn't shred our own laws to do it. That's a principled stand kind of situation. This is not.

This is just a bad case that can't be proven either way. She's a bad witness, and this would be a costly trial that would most likely result in either a mistrial or a hung jury. There simply isn't a way to prove her accusation beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
got what she deserved.

Again, you're way over the line in saying that.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:27:46]

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:30:27]

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2055 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

That perp walk thingy could be done away with, but other than that, from my impression the legal system handled the case just fine. No laughing stock material in sight.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 4):
I agree with you that the case was a loser, and that's why it's not going to go to trial. I don't agree at all about your other statements, which are honestly kind of offensive. You have no access to any evidence and can't prove what you're saying.

I just don't buy that one of the most important men in the world who could walk into the presidency of France is going to arbirtiraily grab a maid in a hotel and try to force her to have sex. Makes absolutely no sense. This is so Kobe Bryant it's not even funny.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 4):
Again, you're way over the line in saying that.

No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,

How? You going to donate private parking and secret vehicles? You start trying to limit the press and you have opened a can of worms you don't want.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:36:40]

User currently offlinebjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 327 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Less of the personal attacks please Nikv, and it would be helpful to your cause if you stopped trying to put your own spin on what I said, in place of what I actually said
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.
Be that the fault of your constitution, your DA system or the Police, it matters not, it is a state defect.
Like it or not, most civilized Countries do not pull those stunts, they at least make some form of effort to prevent undue influence over a possible Juror, and that is why I feel fully justified in saying what I have, and yes, like it or not, your Justice system, thats everyone involved does behave like a banana republic. Is your publics right to gawp, greater than a right to a fair and unbiased trail?
As to whether or not he should have been charged in the first instance, no, I don't think so, on the evidence that I have seen, and I said so in the last thread on this subject. I could see huge flaws in the evidence even then, so why couldn't your Judicial System? Granted, no, I didn't see all the evidence, but having presented a fair number of cases in UK courts, I wouldn't have been happy with this one, so no, on your last point (which I cannot see how you arrived at) I would not do so.
On your point about what are Police supposed to do? Most European Countries manage to take prisoners into Court round the back, and out of sight. Before you claim its because we have older Buildings etc, we didn't start doing so in the UK until a Police service was formed, and that was in 1829, some time after your Country came into being.


User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

I agree that the 24 news cycle is responsible in great measure for the show that the justice process has become, increasingly. But police departments don't have any obligation to have a suspect (that is, someone not proven guilty), walked by armed officers in handcuffs. So they are also somewhat responsible for feeding the circus.

User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1259 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
I just don't buy that one of the most important men in the world who could walk into the presidency of France is going to arbirtiraily grab a maid in a hotel and try to force her to have sex. Makes absolutely no sense. This is so Kobe Bryant it's not even funny.

I don't understand it either, but again, you have no more evidence to prove the version you would like to believe than the version she believes. I also don't understand why a federal justice would routinely sexually harass his law clerk, or why the President would have an affair with an intern. Or why a Tennesse School administrator who was loved by his entire community would rape a woman and then murder his wife. But these things did happen.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

Again, with no evidence to support your claim, you've already tried and convicted her. What if she's not lying? If it really did happen, you've just said that a woman who was raped deserved what she got and should be in jail. You have nothing to prove that this is not, in fact, exactly what she says it is.

I don't really buy it either, but you're way out of line to suggest, with no evidence, that somebody who may have been raped "deserved it" and should be in jail for merely reporting it.

Are we living in Pakistan now?

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:42:53]

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 9):
I don't really buy it either, but you're way out of line to suggest, with no evidence, that somebody who may have been raped "deserved it" and should be in jail for merely reporting it.

Are we living in Pakistan now?

Nice spin, I didn't say the deserved to be raped or in jail for reporting it because quite frankly it's plain to see she wasn't and the jail comment is because she basically made this up and destroyed somebody. I meant she deserved to have the case dropped. If you dislike my opinion fine but I am entitled to it so please keep it in context.

There will never be any evidence since nobody else was there but what little there is points to a woman who saw dollar signs.


User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1259 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I didn't say the deserved to be raped or in jail for reporting it because quite frankly it's plain to see she wasn't and the jail comment is because she basically made this up and destroyed somebody.

Hmmm...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

They're your words, not mine.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
If you dislike my opinion fine but I am entitled to it so please keep it in context.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion and I'm not saying you're not. But simply having the right to say something does not absolve you from what you say. Just as you are free to speak your mind, other people are free to criticize what you say.

You don't believe she was raped? That's fine. I hear you. I understand. Part of me even agrees. But what if you're wrong and she really was raped? What do your statements look like then? If you don't want to be called out on things, don't say them.

What you're saying is essentially "Rubin Carter killed those people and deserved to be in jail." At one time, the evidence might have suggested that. All the circumstances pointed away from giving him the benefit of the doubt too. For heaven's sake - he was convicted twice. But we know now that he was innocent. My point is that you really have no more insight into this than anybody else and if you are wrong, you kind of look like a monster when you say things like "Got what she deserved."

It's over the line.

[Edited 2011-08-23 10:01:46]

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8187 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved.

IIRC, the DNA was credible. The dude had sex with a hotel maid? Such an important guy, maybe the next President of France and he's making the Beast With Two Backs with a hotel maid?

So the guy had a perp walk. Too bloody bad. A man of 'such high stature' should know how to keep his pants zipped. When he's rutting around with anything in a skirt it's pretty hard to believe he doesn't force him self a bit now and then.

As far as the law goes, the civil action might be the best way to go. Like OJ, the criminal trial and the civil trial are two different environments. Maybe it will be enough to keep the dude out of the US.

BTW, how may hotels will feel comfortable having the dude register in the future?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,
Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.
Be that the fault of your constitution, your DA system or the Police, it matters not, it is a state defect.

I see those as the freedom of the press, even if they bring the persons in via a back door, if they are prevented from recording on the proceedings you are denying press freedom, essentially the peoples right to know.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Like it or not, most civilized Countries do not pull those stunts, they at least make some form of effort to prevent undue influence over a possible Juror, and that is why I feel fully justified in saying what I have, and yes, like it or not, your Justice system, thats everyone involved does behave like a banana republic.

Yes, most civilized countries do not have freedom of the press, it is easy to put them both together and say the system of justice is creating the issue by allowing press freedom, unfortunately, that's not the way it works. When one starts restricting access it becomes easy to create / control situations to the detriment of the innocent, one should not have to rely on the good graces of those running the system to obtain fairness.

I do however believe that the press in the USA does seem to think that they have some right not conveyed on them by anyone or anything, they are not the 4th branch behind the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, they are all commercial organizations in business to make a profit from reporting the news.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7110 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.

You have to be joking right? Your a lawyer I presume and you are saying this? Lets go to Mexico or Venezuela or hey even Italy now those are justice systems with some flaws in them. The charges dropped, not enough evidence. The burden of truth falls so much on the prosecution. Perfect example Kasey Anthony case.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt
Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,

Freedom of the press everyone. They can do and say just about whatever they want and the government cant stop them. If they want to follow the car he is in with a helicopter they can, if they want to have 30 cameras at the door they can.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement. It's the media's fault.

Baloney.

The media gets tipped off by the cops that they will be walking the guy out in public.

The handcuffs are put on by the cops.

Unless you are a violent criminal, it is unlikely that either of us no-names would be walked in handcuffs.

I'm not sure I'm for ending the practice, but we shouldn't not call it what it is: a show put on by the cops.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Freedom of the press everyone. They can do and say just about whatever they want and the government cant stop them. If they want to follow the car he is in with a helicopter they can, if they want to have 30 cameras at the door they can.

That doesn't mean that law enforcement should be an accomplice to this ritual.

Seriously, why are D.A.'s holding press conferences when they arrest someone? To steer public opinion.

Why do the cops do the perp walk? To steer public opinion.

[Edited 2011-08-23 10:31:18]


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User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
IIRC, the DNA was credible. The dude had sex with a hotel maid? Such an important guy, maybe the next President of France and he's making the Beast With Two Backs with a hotel maid?

So Clinton had some ugly fat girl. To each his own.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
The media gets tipped off by the cops that they will be walking the guy out in public.

Bull, where did you get this red herring from? Besides most odf these perp walks are court appearances and the times of hearings are public.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Unless you are a violent criminal, it is unlikely that either of us no-names would be walked in handcuffs.

Huh? This makes no sense. So now you are only put in handcuffs if you are famous? If you get arrested for a crime you are put in handcuffs, then brought to jail. Where you are held until your court appearance. At that point if you are indicted the judge makes the call on whether you are detained or allowed out on bail.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
a show put on by the cops.

Totally false and without merit. Police don't need or want this circus this is a direct result of the Nancy Grace ambush media.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Seriously, why are D.A.'s holding press conferences when they arrest someone? To steer public opinion.

Why do the cops do the perp walk? To steer public opinion.

Again this is a red herring.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8187 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
So Clinton had some ugly fat girl. To each his own.

DSK appears to be a bit more rancid:

Quote:

The prosecutors' account of the actions of Strauss-Kahn are similarly narrow. The picture they paint of him is an ugly one. Within minutes of Diallo's arrival in his hotel room, she was spitting out his semen in the hotel hallway. But the prosecutors say that, at this point, they cannot prove that Strauss-Kahn assaulted Diallo. At a minimum, it seems, Strauss-Kahn behaved like a cad and a creep, but that is a moral, not legal, judgment.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/2....strauss.kahn/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Emphasis mine.

The guy does have problems when it comes to women - the BusinessWeek story hits on it as well.

Quote:
Strauss-Kahn’s reputation as a seducer has long been an important part of his mystique, one of the layers of complexity that elevated him above the status of a mere academic and turned him into an intellectual celebrity.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...f-look-the-other-way-08112011.html


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

They have, plenty of it.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 9):
Again, with no evidence to support your claim, you've already tried and convicted her. What if she's not lying?

The problem is she is, on multiple occasions. Actually very little of what she claimed, except for the precise time she entered the suite, has been corroborated by facts and evidence.

The timing of the alleged aggression: IIRC she spent 17 minutes in the suite and it is proven that DSK called his daughter about 8 minutes after ND entered the suite, in other words when she was inside.
It does not make the "he came out naked, rushed over and grabbed my breasts" as claimed by ND impossible but not in the context of a rape.
Approximately 8 minutes, starting naked, then a phone call (to his daughter), then 7 minutes, ending dressed.

Her actions immediately afterwards: a/ she cleans the suite, the one where she says she has been raped, but she does not clean thoroughly since semen is found on the floor and on the wall.
b/ she goes to clean another suite c/ she asks her supervisor if clients are entitled to personal favors from the personnel.

Technically, oral sex is a huge risk for an unarmed rapist. Probably the DA asked an expert opinion about this.
Closing her mandibles for half a second would have changed the whole picture. Totally inconsistent with forced sex.
She declared having spit semen in the sink, but no DNA traces could be found in the sink or the plumbing
If she had to spit, where does the semen on the wall come ?

contrary to "popular" belief, DSK has no marks, no scratches
her actions after the "event" do not match the records (keylocks)
she gave three different versions of the events, with every new one denying she gave another one before
at one time she rolled on the ground in the DA's office
for several days she denied attending DA's invitations, citing her incapacity due to her damaged shoulder (rupture of the ligaments with which she cleaned two suites)

add the phone call to a convict who seems to be her boyfriend with a sentence pertaining to "I know what I am doing"
the money (100,000$ ?) transiting on her bank account with transfers from four States...of which she has no knowledge
the extra child put on her tax records to get a bigger refund
the gang rape in Guinea that did not take place
the false immigration records based on long rehearsal of a taped template

Me thinks that person not only has zero credibility but should not come clean out of this.
What is the sentence for (repeatedly) lying under oath ?

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/whatsnew/pdf/dsk_motion_to_dismiss.pdf


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 18):
The problem is she is, on multiple occasions. Actually very little of what she claimed, except for the precise time she entered the suite, has been corroborated by facts and evidence.

The timing of the alleged aggression: IIRC she spent 17 minutes in the suite and it is proven that DSK called his daughter about 8 minutes after ND entered the suite, in other words when she was inside.
It does not make the "he came out naked, rushed over and grabbed my breasts" as claimed by ND impossible but not in the context of a rape.
Approximately 8 minutes, starting naked, then a phone call (to his daughter), then 7 minutes, ending dressed.

Her actions immediately afterwards: a/ she cleans the suite, the one where she says she has been raped, but she does not clean thoroughly since semen is found on the floor and on the wall.
b/ she goes to clean another suite c/ she asks her supervisor if clients are entitled to personal favors from the personnel.

Technically, oral sex is a huge risk for an unarmed rapist. Probably the DA asked an expert opinion about this.
Closing her mandibles for half a second would have changed the whole picture. Totally inconsistent with forced sex.
She declared having spit semen in the sink, but no DNA traces could be found in the sink or the plumbing
If she had to spit, where does the semen on the wall come ?

contrary to "popular" belief, DSK has no marks, no scratches
her actions after the "event" do not match the records (keylocks)
she gave three different versions of the events, with every new one denying she gave another one before
at one time she rolled on the ground in the DA's office
for several days she denied attending DA's invitations, citing her incapacity due to her damaged shoulder (rupture of the ligaments with which she cleaned two suites)

add the phone call to a convict who seems to be her boyfriend with a sentence pertaining to "I know what I am doing"
the money (100,000$ ?) transiting on her bank account with transfers from four States...of which she has no knowledge
the extra child put on her tax records to get a bigger refund
the gang rape in Guinea that did not take place
the false immigration records based on long rehearsal of a taped template

Me thinks that person not only has zero credibility but should not come clean out of this.
What is the sentence for (repeatedly) lying under oath ?

Very good post! Michael Savage was discussing the theory this was a set up in which she was paid to seduce him and then claim rape to derail his run for French Pres. I tell you it makes a lot of sense.


User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1259 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
Michael Savage

Perhaps the only source more credible than Conservapedia. And a guy with a great love of immigrants of color, too.


User currently offlinekasimir From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jun 2011, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with, but other than that, from my impression the legal system handled the case just fine.

I need to agree with Rara. The media being hyper about this is quite normal, there is nothing much "exciting" going on and this is a textbook tabloid story: "the big french banker raping the poor cleaning lady". There is so much contrast in this story (which makes people want to know more) and since we all have so little details what really went on, this also leaves a lot of room for speculation...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
...we are the most free nation...

Yeah right ... If you repeat it often enough, at some point they might believe it.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8187 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Within minutes of Diallo's arrival in his hotel room, she was spitting out his semen in the hotel hallway.

Isn't that the DNA? Didn't it test out to be DSK?


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):

The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement.

If the "law" allows innocent people to be filmed before they have even been tried, then how is that the fault of the press ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
All a police department can do is try to walk people out the back. You can't prevent the media and people from being present at a courthouse. If you try to inhibit the media you will be hit with lawsuits and they will claim their rights are being violated. I don't like the perp walk either but what can you do? retrofit all courts and police stations with underground parking areas and donate SUVS with tinted windows?

We don't seem to have any trouble keeping the press away from such case in Australia.
Why is it so difficult in the U.S.?

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk.

Yes I agree. And then when the case is thrown out of court, just watch all the suing that will occur, again allowed by the "system"

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Not our justice system.

It is your justice system, its nobody else s is it ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible

And has been allowed, with the help of your justice system to ruin a man

Is that what you call fair  Wow!
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
In the US you need evidence.

What evidence ?
A mans reputation has been ruined.... where is the evidence ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
How? You going to donate private parking and secret vehicles? You start trying to limit the press and you have opened a can of worms you don't want.

Look how other country's handle such cases.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.

Strangely amazing that some here can't seem to grasp this fact !

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
On your point about what are Police supposed to do? Most European Countries manage to take prisoners into Court round the back, and out of sight. Before you claim its because we have older Buildings etc, we didn't start doing so in the UK until a Police service was formed, and that was in 1829, some time after your Country came into being.

We don't have any problem concealing peoples identity in Australia before trail.
Seems as though this is all to hard too achieve in the might US.

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
I see those as the freedom of the press, even if they bring the persons in via a back door, if they are prevented from recording on the proceedings you are denying press freedom, essentially the peoples right to know.

The press is free to report the fact after they have been established, as they should.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Again this is a red herring.

Well, what is it for then ?

I cant see how it serves ANY purpose at all in the proceedings, except to create a media frenzy.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinebjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 327 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Your mistaking 2 different things par13del.
Freedom of the press is fine and reasonable, when it's there to inform. When it's being used to influence, then thats a different matter, its then control of opinion. If you think thats reasonable, then we are at no hope junction!
The very people who read papers or watch TV news are those going to serve as a jury. Is the so called freedom of press more important than a fair trail? Is it not better to find guilt or otherwise on evidence, not on who puts the best show on?
So, what purpose does this so called 'purp' walk serve other than ritual humiliation? None as far as Justice is concerned, save to reinforce the notion that the accused is guilty.
What purpose does televising a trail serve? Very little, and in the well know 'finest hour' of US justice O J Simpson did it really serve anyones notion of justice? No, of course not, it simply served to make a lot of people a lot of money. oh, and satisfy a morbid voyeuristic audience.
While I am sure than US Courts are to an extent the same as UK in that everyone is acting, putting a TV camera into the mix, just encourages that act to take center stage, not the evidence.
flymia, no, I was a Policeman, and in the UK before we adopted a form of Public Prosecutor, known as the Criminal Protection Society, sorry, I mean Crown Prosecution Service, we presented cases or put in simple terms appeared as the prosecution lawyer in the lower (Magistrates) Court and instructed Counsel in the Crown (or higher) Court.
While every Judicial system has a method of withdrawing prosecutions should the need arise, the majority of them do so without first going through a humiliation exercise, ie not doing what the US does with regular monotony. That is like it or not, what makes your 'system' no better than the banana republics, and why it comes into for critical comment from those outside the US. It's not helped by your claim to be defenders of Justice on one hand, and perverting it on the other.
The fact that charges have been dropped is neither here nor there in the eyes of some, the simple fact he's been treated as guilty is the issue here.
Ken777. DNA evidence proves nothing at all about guilt. It simply shows contact. That was never in dispute. The issue here was consent, and clearly the prosecution were not in a position to prove there was no consent. That was reasonably predictable from the off.

[Edited 2011-08-23 13:18:44]

25 iakobos : Exactly, apart from the perp walk (and the unavoidable media hyperbole), the US Justice has worked as it should, albeit with the speed of a handicapp
26 NIKV69 : LOL, Yep fortunately the DA shared his opinion because it seems he is right. DSK said he had an consenual encounter with her. Police can't stop the p
27 Springbok747 : You're Something is not right here..either this whole thing was a plot to prevent him (DSK) from running for French President..or the guy actually did
28 D L X : Law school. Where did you hear otherwise? Bullseye. You're considerably less likely to be cuffed if you are a non-violent nobody. Most people are rel
29 NIKV69 : That had to be the same school Kunstler and Kuby went to maybe? So you are telling me if I get arrested for a non-violent crime the police won't cuff
30 Post contains links comorin : I urge you all to read the dismissal document filed by the NY D.A.'s office - makes me proud of the "Law and Order" aspect of the Judicial System: htt
31 TheCommodore : Crap. Why can't police shield him (DSK) from the Press. They, the police don't need to accommodate the press's wishes by "showing him off" do they. B
32 iakobos : Well Springbok, you are most probably not a frequent international traveler. This fuss as you said seems very likely to originate in a "give me a qui
33 NIKV69 : Shield him? It's not their responsibility, what do you want them to get more in their budget for a choice of disguises for each perp? Again not their
34 comorin : "In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate crime and the dis
35 NIKV69 : Again in NYC where else are they going to walk him out of? Some of the buildings don't have back doors or anything. I mean what do you want a Helcpot
36 474218 : He was, when he was in jail he was shielded from the press. However, when he is on a city street (sidewalk) he can be photographed just like any othe
37 EDICHC : I agree in part but freedom to report AFTER any trial. The media circus surrounding this case compromised any chance of a fair trial which is surely
38 TheCommodore : But yet you then go on to say this.... Isn't this also part of the justice system ? So you are not really sure where you stand on these other "matter
39 474218 : From DSK lawyer: "This encounter was quick, it was consensual and she was a willing participant,"
40 Aesma : Firstly, I'm glad this ends this way, including for selfish political reasons, as I don't want this case to play any part in the 2012 French elections
41 NIKV69 : Exactly why he was most likely set up. She exposed herself to the public. Also in the US the person being accused has the right to know who is accusi
42 ltbewr : Yes, there are serious problems with our (American) Criminal Justice system that needs changes by law or practice including ending or restricting 'per
43 par13del : I honestly believe that when this first started it was to shame the individual and encourage other victims to come forward with additional evidence,
44 474218 : No. Nor should they. DSK would not have ever been seen in handcuffs if, instead of running to the airport and boarding a plane to leave the country,
45 prebennorholm : Don't blame the press. They just recorded the show put up by NYPD. NIKV69 is right. At least just give the man five minutes to shave and dress proper
46 par13del : I forgot that, point noted. I noticied a number of online news web sites in Tampa for example have a weekly line up of the latest mug shots, I assume
47 bjcc : ltbewr At last an American who's got the confidence to see that the system isn't something it's not, that being perfect. A couple of your points thoug
48 OzGlobal : You are misinformed. The flight was booked well in advance and part of his published schedule as a VIP in the hotel. He lunched with his daughter aft
49 par13del : Everyone does the same thing, what differentiates systems is who does what and what protections exist for those thrown into the system. National prid
50 iakobos : Right from the start in May you and a few others have elected to take a tangent. Nothing wrong at that stage. What puzzles me, especially from a reti
51 Post contains links D L X : No idea, probably not. But I noticed you have given ZERO evidence for your position. Just ad hominems. Take a read for a change: http://en.wikipedia.
52 bjcc : par13del I've not claimed any system is perfect, and said so in my first post on this issue. But there's a difference between imperfect, and blatant a
53 474218 : Mug shots are public records, open for viewing by everyone, as are all police records (except for those of minors).
54 Mir : Which has to be balanced against the defendant's right to privacy. There's no specific need for the media to cover trials live from in the courtroom.
55 474218 : All trials (except minors) are open to the public. You can't take photos or videos, but you can go and watch. Some are very entertaining, some are bo
56 Mir : Which is fine. But if the public can't take videos or photos, the media shouldn't be able to either. -Mir
57 NIKV69 : So what? They give the media a courtesy to get coverage of a newsworthy event but it still the media that makes it the circus it becomes. You tried t
58 Post contains links D L X : Everything I said was true, as supported by my evidence, over your complete lack of evidence. You're sticking your head in the sand if you believe la
59 par13del : I am fine with no visual media, I hesitated somewhat with allowing the media to provide their version / summary of the events without actual voice re
60 NIKV69 : Everything but the important point. Law enforcement does not do a perp walk to sway public opinion, demean the perp or influence anything else you tr
61 474218 : For those who think the American justice system strange. Have you ever seen a trial in the UK, whats with those wigs? And back in the late 80's early
62 D L X : Did you actually read the quotes in my post? Did you notice the one about Rudy Giuliani? And why would the cops care if the media had a crack at a bi
63 NIKV69 : So you are telling me if police all of a sudden started refusing to have public perp walks with huge cases the media wouldn't do anything? I get the
64 D L X : Nice non-answer. Law enforcement does NOT care if the media has a crack at a big story. To answer your question anyway, the media might whine about i
65 NIKV69 : Actually the central point is you have accused law enforcement with using perp walks for political and judicial gain. Which you use innuendo to prove
66 Post contains images D L X : Well, if you're not going to read my cites, it's not worth discussing further with you. Good bye.
67 NIKV69 : I did and all they say that a bunch of people feel the perp walk in unfair to the perp. Nowhere do you provide any credible proof that law enforcemen
68 Mir : The lawyers will certainly be reading the papers, and they can ask the judge to release audio or video recordings if something isn't being quoted cor
69 ltbewr : I would like to note my parts in the criminal justice process. Several years ago, I served as a Grand Juror, and will be doing so again soon, 1 day a
70 bjcc : 474218 There's nothing 'strange' about a UK trial. The wigs are a traditional badge of office for Judges and Barristers, a higher form of Lawyer. The
71 EDICHC : But only after any trial. If charges are dropped because there is no case to answer then the public don't need to know. Precisely, it portrayed the a
72 Aesma : I doubt he was set up, but anyway, the leading candidate of the socialists in the polls now is pretty much center-left too, so it looks like it won't
73 Pyrex : Oh no, not this crap again... what is your solution, ban media from standing in the streets? The guy is the definition of a dirty old man, would not
74 GDB : A result of an angry and frustrated PM (Thatcher) that supporters and directors of terrorism were seen as some kind of folk heroes in another place,
75 MillwallSean : The US system screwed up by parading the man. Its against basic rights but apart from that it worked. DSK is a sleezebag to be honest. The main reason
76 Post contains links garnetpalmetto : Do me a favor - track down the documentary "Hot Coffee" and watch it. The trailer can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBKRjxeQnT4. You may
77 blueflyer : No, the main reason it is both a laughing stock and an embarrassment is because the federal government signs binding treaties with other nations that
78 wn700driver : Agreed. And yet our media only very quietly and meekly admits that they might have reported in error when they were complicit in shouting his guilt f
79 D L X : To the courthouse. Not to jail, Pyrex. You're trying to twist my words. You need to follow the entire conversation chain: Rape is a violent crime. Th
80 gigneil : The criminal justice system of Ghana is a laughing stock. Or of Saudi Arabia. Ours is fine. NS
81 bjcc : wn700driver I wasn't suggesting your press don't have the freedom to film someone that the Police and or DA has arranged to be paraded in cuffs, for n
82 MD11Engineer : In Germany police stations and prisoner reception centres (in larger cities), prisons as well as courthouses used for criminal trials, usually have a
83 bjcc : MD11Engineer I think you'll find most countries do much the same, for both the reasons you give, buy unfortunately, some of of US cousins can't seem t
84 Post contains links csavel : Well here are some "red herrings" for you. It is quite well-known that perp-walks are choreographed "theater" and are totally unnecessary. While few
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