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Iran Requires $5b To Replace Ageing Civilian Fleet  
User currently offlineqantas747flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Interesting article on Bloomberg's newswires regarding the state of Iran's airlines and more specifically the level of investment they so desperately need.

It will be interesting to see exactly what aircraft the airlines go for to replace the aircraft that will be retired - Boeing/Airbus, or perhaps they will fully commit to the provisional orders they have for Tu204 and Antonov 148 aircraft from Russia and Ukraine?

More info on the following link.

http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...g-civilian-aircraft-fleet-1.862420

As a separate but connected point, the above article makes reference to the Iran Air Boeing 727 crash in January earlier this year in which 77 people died. From what I understand, no official report has yet been made as to the exact cause of the crash, even though both flight data recorders were found intact and were analyzed withing days of the crash. If anyone has further details, please post.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 989 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6547 times:

Iran is not exactly broke -- if they can afford a nuclear program, they can afford to buy some airplanes. Of course the sanctions are making that difficult, but there must be some crafty way for them to get hold of some ageing Boeing and Airbus to replace their already really old Boeing and Airbus. If the Tu-204s are still an option, why wouldn't they just order a bunch of those? I realize the 204s seem to take forever to deliver, so is it that they're trying to diversify so they can get more airplanes faster? If North Korea can get them, then surely Iran could. If the Russians will sell to them, why wouldn't they go for the Sukhoi Superjet? I'd venture a guess that when the Chinese aviation industry progresses a little further it might become more a stable source of new aircraft for Iran.

Without getting political, I'll just say that they got themselves into this mess, so they can't really be surprised that it became the issue that it did. They should have tried to focus on acquiring new aircraft several years ago before their 30 year old airplanes mysteriously began crashing (sarcasm). They dug themselves into a pretty damn big hole, so good luck to them trying to climb out. Forgive me for omitting empathy...it just won't happen.



If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you!
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Perhaps we can emphaphise with the crew and passengers.

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6293 times:

As Iran cannot order new A or B planes, they buy second hand if possible.

Mahan Air seems to be more successful than other Iranian operators, as they have aquired some ex-UA 744s and the whole ex-LH A300-600 fleet as well as some ex-LH A310s. Mahans fleet isnt bad even by international standards, their 744s should be able to fly into the next decade. The 744s were aquired via third parties/countries playing tricks, but how they could buy so many former LH planes legally I have no clue.

Iran Air has much more problems to get access to replacements. One has to praise their technical department, keeping 747s from the 70s and A300s from the 80s flying under such conditions is quite an achievement. That wont go on forever though.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

Iran needs to lose the psycho in charge of the country, then they can sort out their airlines.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5906 times:
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About 15 years ago Boeing wanted to sell some 737's to Iran Air, the US Government said No Way. If Washington can ever see the light selling airplanes to Iran would be a way to engage the regime there in a positive way.

User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5669 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 1):
Iran is not exactly broke -- if they can afford a nuclear program, they can afford to buy some airplanes.

You mean in the same way that if the U.S. can afford invading Iraq or maintaining troops in dozens of countries, it can afford to, say, maintain its infrastructure? A lot of time it is not a simple as being able to afford something (and who knows in Iran's case - a lot of its fortunes ride on the ups and downs of the price of oil and its refining capacity is limited so it exports oil for refining and imports gas and it has a great number of social programs) but is more a study in what can be done politically. Obviously, in Iran's case, that process is not democratic but it probably requires political capital and negotiation.



ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlineantidote From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4849 times:

In the short term, why can't they lease aircraft like Cubana's A320-200's from TACA. Are the US sanctions more restrictive on Iran than Cuba?

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4626 times:
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Any company that openly trades with Iran which does business in or has assets in the U.S. risks prosecution and asset seizure. The sanction regime is pretty comprehensive and whether folks agree with them or not, are intended to isolate Iran from the rest of the world.

This is why Iran has resorted to 3rd party (almost grey/black market) dealings to obtain replacement aircraft and parts.

Hopefully, we'll see a less hostile leader in Iran some day take positive steps regarding their nuclear program and other political issues. The U.S. and EU could then ease sanctions and A and B would compete for a large series of orders to update Iran's fleet.


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4052 times:
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Quoting antidote (Reply 7):
In the short term, why can't they lease aircraft like Cubana's A320-200's from TACA. Are the US sanctions more restrictive on Iran than Cuba?

Somewhat. We allow, under certain strict conditions, direct air service to Cuba, simply because we have a large Cuban-American population. As far as trade goes, while we don't trade with Cuba, we do supply humanitarian aid to Cuba, something I don't think we do for Iran. I think we're probably less-concerned about Cuba than we are with Iran. But in light of the recent outreach the Cubans have made towards Iran in the recent years, that too could change, especially if a Republican is elected to the WH.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 817 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

Quoting antidote (Reply 7):
In the short term, why can't they lease aircraft like Cubana's A320-200's from TACA. Are the US sanctions more restrictive on Iran than Cuba?

That's a great question. My impression is that the answer is yes. Cuba isn't blackballed by Europe either. Its mostly an American sanctions effort.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 2):
Perhaps we can emphaphise with the crew and passengers.

I can but in general, Americans don't empathize with anything other than themselves.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
Hopefully, we'll see a less hostile leader in Iran some day take positive steps regarding their nuclear program and other political issues. The U.S. and EU could then ease sanctions and A and B would compete for a large series of orders to update Iran's fleet.

The sanctions let them get 7 year old aircraft from anyone so its not really that bad.

I would go on record though and say Iran will never purchase from Boeing or another American company again even with regime change. The US used aviation to engage in economic warfare against civilians there and its widely covered in the Iranian media. The general population holds the US partly accountable both for accidents and the civilian shoot down of a IranAir flight. There is a lot of bad blood with US in that regard. There is less toward Europe, Russia and China.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

That is a dreadful attitude.

User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2226 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Has Iran Air made any hints or suggestions as to what A/C they are looking at? Couldn't they get some 777-200A's or ERs?


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 989 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting Grid (Reply 6):
You mean in the same way that if the U.S. can afford invading Iraq or maintaining troops in dozens of countries, it can afford to, say, maintain its infrastructure? A lot of time it is not a simple as being able to afford something (and who knows in Iran's case - a lot of its fortunes ride on the ups and downs of the price of oil and its refining capacity is limited so it exports oil for refining and imports gas and it has a great number of social programs) but is more a study in what can be done politically. Obviously, in Iran's case, that process is not democratic but it probably requires political capital and negotiation.

Not only am I not a fan of your example (particularly because I avoided politics in my post), but I don't believe it is even relevant. The US can afford to maintain and improve its infrastructure, and particularly so in the better economy of 8-10 years ago when the wars began. The difference is that spending money on a war in Afghanistan to find those responsible for 9/11 is politically more popular than sinking money into infrastructure...yes, the infrastructure in the US does need improvement, but it isn't a safety issue on any kind of large scale, and certainly no more so than most western countries.

In Iran, old airplanes with sketchy (at best) maintenance is creating the deadliest and most unsafe place for aviation in the world. When they're beating Africa, there are some serious problems. In the world of today where air crashes with fatalities in developed countries have become extremely rare, Iran is equaling the poor safety records in aviation of 30-40 years ago. If Iran can afford a nuclear energy program and a space program, in my mind, they are a developed nation. This means that despite the sanctions, they should have the ability to import relatively new and certainly safe western aircraft from second-hand buyers with little or no difficulty. Until very recently, they chose to ignore the glaring problems with their airline industry despite the body count piling up. It's a wonder that the EU didn't have more of their aircraft on the banned list.

Your comparison of US military engagements and its infrastructure with Iran and its complete failure to provide a safe airline industry despite it being a developed nation is completely out of bounds for many reasons. I highly suggest you leave politics out of your posts as they are not relevant in this forum to begin with. This is an aviation forum and at no point did your post even remotely reference aviation. The least you could have done was find a comparison that made sense and supported your argument, which you also failed to do. Debating politics with me in this forum is not the place, nor should you, because you would lose.


It seems to me that there must be legal means of circumventing the sanctions. Say, for example, an airline were to have Tehran as one of its hubs, but actually be based in a non-sanctioned nation, possibly Turkey? The airline could then purchase and utilize brand new western aircraft. If the Iranian government granted the airline fifth freedom rights to allow domestic flights, they could charge larger than usual taxes and fees to bring in the at least some of the revenue it would as an Iranian-based airline without the airline having any official economic ties or interests in Iran. Even if the scheme were obvious, the UN would be unable to enforce sanctions on an airline based in a non-sanctioned nation. Just a thought.



If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you!
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

SolarFlyer22....right...the US does not empathize with anybody...how much pray tell is our foreign aid budget? Hell, we even give funds to countries we KNOW are stabbing us in the back. As for the 727? Tough shit, while I feel for those that perished, that disaster rests squarely on the shoulders of the kooks running that circus....maybe you should not be flying ANY airplane that you cannot maintain with accepted due diligence. Seems to me it's like driving a car you know the brakes don't work...and this is the US's fault how? Actsundevil is right..How about this..."What you reap so shall you sow"..and although I have not read the Koran, I'm sure there is some teaching in that book that fits as well. It's quite simple really, to play in the same sand box with your neighbors, be civil. And no, the US is far from perfect and has done some stupid things..don't even try to pin this on us. The only reason the "citizens" of Iran are stirred up at the US is because their "elected" representatives want it that way, as they need SOME outside bad influence to blame for their problems, otherwise the masses would really discover just how bad their lives are and rise up and smite them. Did you happen to read the piece about the water fights this week?


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10729 posts, RR: 38
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1368 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4):
Iran needs to lose the psycho in charge of the country, then they can sort out their airlines.

Mahmoud A. is probably the one you are thinking of. He is not the man in charge. He is only an underdog.


"" At the top of Iran's power structure is the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
...
According to Iran's Constitution, the Supreme Leader is responsible for the delineation and supervision of "the general policies of the Islamic Republic of Iran," which means that he sets the tone and direction of Iran's domestic and foreign policies. ""

http://www.iranchamber.com/government/articles/structure_of_power.php

Mahmoud A. has de facto no power other than executing his boss's orders.

I hope Iran will find a way to renew its airlines fleet with new aircraft types be it by some twisted manner, via other airlines reselling them unused up-to-date equipment still in good condition. Passengers need to fly safely regardless of politics.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
I hope Iran will find a way to renew its airlines fleet with new aircraft types be it by some twisted manner, via other airlines reselling them unused up-to-date equipment still in good condition. Passengers need to fly safely regardless of

not possible. There's a clause on each and every US export declaration saying that diversion of goods may be contrary to US law. That was already so decades ago. With the sanctions which are not only US but UN sanctions as well, there are very few loopholes left. Compliance is a major, a very important factor in day-to-day business dealings these days. Check the recent thread about IR fueling problems in Europe.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1266 times:

To bad they have a govt that hate the west. Well the west builds the airplanes. Let them fly junk. If by some reason they get western built aircraft do not sell them parts. Make it as difficult as possible to get parts.

I cannot understand why so many from the west are so concerned with Iran when Iran wants to wipe us out. Don't give me the "oh it's just the crazy in charge and he does not represent the people" because the people in charge have the finger on the trigger.

Gs



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10729 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 17):

I don't agree with any of what you are saying in your post. Not all Iranians hate the West this is not true and neither do all the members of their government. All have a gripe against Iran simply because they are conditioned by what they hear in the major media channels.

Strangely no one goes screaming after Mugabe or Kim Jong Il (or whatever the name of the North Korean dictator in PyongYang, Hugo Chavez in Caracas, Rahul Castro in Cuba and more of the same. How about pointing the finger at Pakistan - they are far more dangerous than the Iranians as far as I am concerned should their stock of nuclear weapons fall in the wrong hands.

The people of Iran have the same right to fly on safe airliners as you or I or anybody else in every country be it Israel or the US, Singapore, China, Russia, Brazil or any other country in the world regardless of their rulers.


  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1182 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 18):
The people of Iran have the same right to fly on safe airliners as you or I or anybody else in every country be it Israel or the US, Singapore, China, Russia, Brazil or any other country in the world regardless of their rulers.

well, as you said correctly "rulers" . In a democracy we have governments which are elected by the people for a limited time to serve the people and achieve the goal you aim in your statement, for instance having safe airlines flying them.

In a dictatorship there are rulers who give a damn about the welfare of their subjects. I am afraid the Iranians have to send their rulers to hell in order to get freedom. Safe airlines and everything else will follow and the sanctions will be lifted once a responsible government is established.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

I think Iran was going to start license production of An-140 propjets a few years back, but have only made about 6 or 7 so far. They might go for a similar deal with the An-148/158. The Tu-204s are indeed slow in coming off the line. They would have to be powered by the Russian PS-90 engines due to the ban on Western technology -- hmmm, would that affect the cockpit I wonder ?

I think it's Mahan who are still operating a pax 707, I think just one now.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5575 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

Why is this in the Non-av forum?   

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1155 times:

Quoting na (Reply 3):
As Iran cannot order new A or B planes, they buy second hand if possible.

What about spares......



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1104 times:

The people do not have a right to fly on anything. Flying is not a human right.

If they want that right they can build their own airplanes. What the people have is a choice to fly or not. If their aviation industry is unsafe due to the govt they can chose to not fly.

The fact is the people they hate makes the airplanes.

Maybe instead of building a Nuclear industry to get a bomb the money could have been spent to improve their aviation safety climate.



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8740 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1060 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 23):
The people do not have a right to fly on anything. Flying is not a human right.

LOL, why don't you advocate "If God wanted humans to fly he'd given them wings".  

Freedom is a basic right and that includes the self determination to go where you want, when you want and by the means you want.



I'm not fishing for compliments
25 connies4ever : Freedom is enshrined I believe in the UN Charter as a basic human right. And the mobility comments is interesting in that it flies in the face of the
26 PanHAM : Yes., I am not a friend of "no-fly lists" but individual freedom has its limitations where the freedom and the well being of third persons are affect
27 greasespot : They are free to travel. Just on old junk airplanes. No one is stopping them. Gs
28 Quokka : If only that were true. But as we know, many countries have immigration controls, visa and entry requirements designed to limit freedom of movement.
29 Pyrex : Flying is not a right, it is a privilege. And haven't they managed to crash a couple of those already? Me thinks the problem is not the age of the ai
30 474218 : Is that so? The how do you explain this: From October 1, 2005 through September 30, 2006, United States Agency for International Development responde
31 NoUFO : If you have the means to do so, yes. Otherwise, pass me € 5,000 so I can afford a 1st class ticket to the Maldives, please. I am afraid an embargo
32 N1120A : Iran Air can place a massive order for aircraft right now if they were allowed to. They are known to prefer Boeing. There is zero reason to continue t
33 474218 : I take it you never heard of the takeover the United States embassy in Tehran? A countries embassy is an extension of their country and the United St
34 N1120A : 32 years and a very different time. Not to mention the reasons behind the Iranian Revolution That, and the crumbling civil aviation fleet which carri
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