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Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2871 posts, RR: 8
Posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Sure this will ruffle the feathers of the IDF ?

Should be interesting to see how Israel reacts to this latest tactic, in the continuing Turkish/Israel spat.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/turkish-...aza-aid-convoy-20110909-1k15r.html

[Edited 2011-09-08 22:01:52]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
158 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Just Erdogan trying to piss with the big boys. All talk. They're not going to do it.

User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 1):

Just Erdogan trying to piss with the big boys.

Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.
On a second note, it's about time someone stands up to the Diva!
For sure the Middle East will be a lot different for what Israel got used to in the past.
It's a different Game right now, and choices have to be made.

[Edited 2011-09-09 00:49:25]


I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...


אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2889 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):
Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...

I think it would be the other way round, the Turkish have a pretty large and powerful and modern Navy.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

What really pi...s me off is that this testosteroned, nationalistic bully boy and defendor of faith Erdogan is provoking Israel so that he can claim Article 5 NATO pact. He can be sure that Germany and he rest of NATO will rather cut his testosterone factory off before he can say that they shoot back since 05h45.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
He can be sure that Germany and he rest of NATO will rather cut

My first thought when I read the linked article. NATO and the EU would certainly not support Turkey and I imagine the telephones will have been busy letting him know as much. Whatever mild criticisms the EU may have of Israel it would certainly not run as far as Turkey protecting a "relief" vessel going to Gaza. If push were to come to shove, which is open to question, the US and the rest of NATO will jump to support Israel. The oft repeated chorus of the right of Israel to defend itself would be sung in unison, leaving Turkey to ask does it really want to escalate its spat with Israel at the same time as it appears to be posturing over Syria.

As both Turkey and Israel have an interest in a less unstable Syria it would make sense if the two would patch up their differences. But when I see Erdogan and Netanyahu I think of the tower of the town hall in Poznań - crowds gather outside Poznań's Town Hall at midday to watch two mechanical billy goats emerge from the clocktower and butt heads with each other. An interesting comment on the sometimes stubborn and childish proceedings within.


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

1. They're not gonna do it.
2. Even if they did, Israel would simply wait until they entered their coastal waters. Aggression by Turkey -> No NATO help.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 6):
An interesting comment on the sometimes stubborn and childish proceedings within.

Thanks for that, I have to go to Poznan some time. But you are right in your comparison. The real problem is, Article 5 is the basis of NATO, article 5 applied 10 years ago on 9/11 and Erdogan could twist it that way.and afterwards complain bitterly that NATO has let him down. I doubt however that he will go as far and close Incirlik and Adana bases.

Whatever else the UN report says, Israel was right in defending itself and the first childish move was by Turkey to allow that vessel to Gaza with the intention to break the blockade. No government should support such freaks and unfortunately Turkey did and still continues with this BS.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

My first thought on this was what will NATO let them do? Probably not much...


OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt. Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.


No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

You forgot to add the smiley face at the end of your sentence... Because, you can't be serious!

In other news: Turkey "Floats" new RFP for replacement Navy... More news @ 11:00.



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25365 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

Its not the Turkish Army which has no way to get to Israel. Its the Navy - operating hundreds of miles away from their bases. Rather simple military task for Israel to handle if it needs to.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):
Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...

   If the Turks are truly that dumb to encroach on Israeli territorial waters.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
What really pi...s me off is that this testosteroned, nationalistic bully boy and defendor of faith

First lets not connect this with religion, as religion is not something that been prominent in this argument. Having associations with Turkey all these decades much of this is based on internal politics and playing to the masses which have a fervent anti-Israel opinion especially after last summers incidents. Unfortunately the things feed on themselves and Erdogan cant simply back off without loosing face as his government had already publicly drawn a line in the sand with a date by which they expected compensation and apology from Israel. When this came and went he had to do something.
Its also interesting to note the internal difference with president Gul which for the most part has taken a much more moderate stance and public comments. However the government belongs to Erdogan so he gets the PR and ability to influence events.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Whatever else the UN report says, Israel was right in defending itself and the first childish move was by Turkey to allow that vessel to Gaza with the intention to break the blockade. No government should support such freaks and unfortunately Turkey did and still continues with this BS.

   Indeed. Its law-101. No one can encroach or illegally enter a country without them being able to defend themselves. The UN report confirmed Israels legitimate rights to block entry.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt.

If you recall the 1974 war when two NATO allies fought each other. Did not seem to effect membership.

Turkey is extremely valuable to NATO and the US to simply be thrown out. The ramifications for are too large for the region and beyond.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt. Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.

I´ve got the slight feeling that Erdogan isn´t too much interested in EU or NATO anymore, but dreams of Turkey being the leader of something like an Ottoman commonwealth, consisting of Turkey and her former colonies, at least those in Northern Africa and the Middle East..

Jan

He certainly seems to dream of the "good old days" of the Ottoman Empire.

[Edited 2011-09-09 09:56:25]

User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 7):
2. Even if they did, Israel would simply wait until they entered their coastal waters

This will not be the case once the UN General Assembly recognizes Palestine as a member state, then the Turkish ships will be in Palestinian international waters off the coast of Gaza, and it will be an aggression by Israel against Turkey and the State of Palestine.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt.

The NATO needs Turkey rather the other way around for so many reasons, they have the second largest Army in the NATO, along with their strategic location to list a few!

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.

The Turks realize that they have no chances in getting in the EU based on the religion of the majority of the country., Belarus or even Brazil, for that matter, has a better chance of joining the EU than Turkey.
The Turkish have their eyes right now on their historic ties with the region, the Middle East, and they have been playing it well.
Their support for Palestine brings them closer and closer to the 300 million people living in the Arab world. So many Arabs wish they have the same leadership that Turkey has now a days.

Any conflict between Turkey and Israel will have Palestine in its heart and will not a turkish-israeli conflict, and that will not go well with the region specially that most of the Western appointed leaders are gone or have their seats shaken.
the street will want a response, and words will not cut it at that stage.

That's why I said:

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
It's a different Game right now, and choices have to be made.

So, I don't think the US or NATO for that matter will go in another war at this point of time.

If anything, it's everyone's interest to cool things down in the region.
Israel has just lost the support of Mubarak, and the whole peace agreement between Egypt and Israel is at stake, specially after the killing of 5 Egyptian soldiers inside the Egyptian borders by the Israelis.
I think the Israeli embassy in Cairo is about to be shut down, once and for all.

The US and the EU has strong economic ties with the region, are they going to put that in jeopardy?
Right now, I only see France who realizes that!!
So far, I think Turkey is playing its cards right.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

Although Turkey has the largest army in NATO after the US, that calculation is mainly based on numbers of "conventional" army forces. Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force. Israel's army is also concentrated on a specific area (East Mediterranean) while Turkey's forces, especially its navy, are scattered all around the country (E. Mediterranean, Aegean Sea, Black Sea).

Quoting racko (Reply 7):
1. They're not gonna do it.

Probably not. I doubt they would start a conflict with Israel at the moment. They already have an unofficial open front with the Kurds, getting on another dispute would be too much.

What is often bypassed by foreign media and only openly mentioned in the regional media (Turkish, Cypriot, Greek and Israeli) is the role of Cyprus and the upcoming drilling in the Exclusive Economic Zones of Cyprus and Israel. The two countries have signed agreements over the official borders of these zones and drilling for natural gas are supposed to start next month by Noble Energy. Turkey has already "threatened" with presence of its navy in those zones and in the sea departments where the drills are going to take place. Thus, I am a bit skeptical about the timing that Turkey decided to retaliate for the flotilla or to suddenly become so interested about the Gaza blockade, after all those months.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
First lets not connect this with religion, as religion is not something that been prominent in this argument.

I really didn't, hardly to a third in the argument. But Turkey has been a secular state ever since Kemal Atatürk until Erdogan was elected PM and ever since he is playing that card. Hence, it's got to be a legitimate argument against this guy.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 14):
This will not be the case once the UN General Assembly recognizes Palestine as a member state

Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US. So, Turkey runs the blockade. Israel will fire upon or board ships. If ships are hit or destroyed, boarded, or Turks killed, Turkey will declare war on Israel, and the US will live up to its alliance with Israel.

As a strong supporter of Israel, let me say that Turkey may have a large army, but the Israelis have fought off multiple countries...at once.

Just let the fighting wait until after my trip over there has ended...

Marc


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 15):
Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force.

That might be "slightly" true, but that is no advantage at all.
Israel lost its war in Lebanon twice, with 2006 being the latest, and they had a superior technological advantage over the Lebanese.
So technological superiority has failed them more than once, they were able to inflict a lot of civilian casualties, but they lost their battles, and I see them loosing any coming ones.
After all the ugly face of war is still determined on the ground!!

Oh, and don't forget that the Turkish Armed Forces are in Erdogan's hands right now.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 18):
After all the ugly face of war is still determined on the ground!!

Very true! But, unless Turkey is ready to land soldiers, tanks and any other land weaponry in Israel, any possible conflict will be determined in the sea/air.


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Israel lost in 2006 because they fought a war they couldn't win. There's no way you can prevent the occasional small rocket launched at you, short of bombing anything that is within range (which would have repercussions that could hardly be classified as "winning" either).

And, as others have pointed out, if Israel wants to get rid of the Turkish navy, it can. There's no way for Turkey to achieve air superiority off the coast of Israel.

And all that aside, nobody is going to war over this. Erdogan gets his chance to pander to the Arab street, Liebermann gets his chance to say something stupid (seriously, who thought it was a good idea to make this idiot foreign minister? His latest idea is to establish relations with the PKK, classified by both the EU and the US as a terrorist organization.), everybody calms down and minds his own business.


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

There are many more actors on the scene and the stage set is becoming overloaded.

Kurdistan (in and out of Turkish borders),
Syria,
Cyprus (oil exploration and Russian Navy back up) http://www.cyprusnewsreport.com/?q=node/4540
Bulgaria (mutual very impolite visits and border fence in preparation),
Israel (not only the blockade affair but also the Israeli-made Turkish AF UAV Heron-1 apparently retained in Israel)
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...turkish-uav-contract-updated-0389/

This comes on top of ancient but still present antagonisms, Greece being only one of them.
A dangerous path Mssrs Gül and Erdogan...


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US.

Don't forget that Israel got its recognition through the UN General Assembly. Palestine will earn the recognition of more than 129 world countries.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
As a strong supporter of Israel,

As a strong supporter of Palestine, I will have a big Palestinian flag hanging outside my house when they win their recognition.
The Palestinians deserve to have their own state, the peace process has been running for the past 20 years, and if they follow what Israel and the US want, my grand grand child will be reading the news about the obstacles in the peace process and the talk about the promised Palestinian state.
Israel is not interested in the peace process, and the Palestinians have lost faith in it and in the US support of the peace process.
The more they wait, the more land Israel will confiscate, and the more of their people will be killed by Israel.
If Israel will have its way, I see Palestinians left with 1 square mile and a 1000 inhabitants left in there.
And there you get your second Vatican City.


Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
but the Israelis have fought off multiple countries...at once.

Those days are over. It's not 1948, nor 1967 anymore.
And I'm not talking about armies or technology here, I'm talking about the change of leadership in the region. That's what counts.
The image of Israeli soldiers crying amid the 2006 invasion of Lebanon are still lingering in our minds.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 15):
Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force.

But as this will most likely be a naval engagement I'd say Turkey would give Israel a wooping.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Turkey will declare war on Israel, and the US will live up to its alliance with Israel.

What's more important, Nato or Israel, I'd have to say Nato, I think there would be a massive uproar in Europe if the US stood by Israel and not sided with Turkey, the best and only option for the US would be to sit it out and remain neutral.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US.

It the only way to resolve this problem, the US needs to man up and support Palestine, all this pandering to Israel is only making the conflict worse, dragging it out and killing more people. The Palestinians are a people whose country has been systematically stolen over the past 60 years, it's a disgrace, the world and in particular the US should be ashamed.


http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/landmap1.jpg


I also wonder why Israel has the right to control the sea around the Gaza strip surely that is Palestinian territorial waters?


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 18):
Oh, and don't forget that the Turkish Armed Forces are in Erdogan's hands right now.

A more likely scenario would be the Military ousting the government again...  



harder than woodpecker lips...
25 lewis : Depends on what the final "targets" of Turkey will be. If they try to get involved in anything else than the Gaza blockade, the EU, Russia and US hav
26 Post contains images jfk69 : Maybe their "brothers" can house them
27 Post contains links Centre : They still lost! Isn't that the measure of any war? The image of the US in the Arab world is not the best as it is, We are putting our economic inter
28 Centre : Using the same argument, we can say the same thing about Israel, since they got a lot of supporters everywhere. If you want to use this argument we c
29 mffoda : You seem to know allot about the region... Could you show us a map of Kurdistan??
30 Centre : The Kurds have not claimed themselves as an independent entity before! Even their greatest leader Saladin never claimed or distinguish himself as a K
31 EDKA : Palestinian' politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 : The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinia
32 jfk69 : And the Dome of the rock is only the 3rd holiest place in the Muslim world, I will let you "win" cause I am tired of these tit for tat threads.
33 mffoda : Divided and conquered by whom?
34 Fly777s : You mean strong allies such as Egypt, in which we give them $1.3 billion a year... and we get what exactly in return? Or like Pakistan.. another "str
35 KiwiRob : Why should they, basically what right did the world have to create Israel in the first place, why should a people have been systematically brutalised
36 Post contains links mffoda : Have a look at the League of Nations... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations_Mandate
37 Fly777s : It's funny how over the past decades of archaeological digs, many artifacts referencing Israel and the Israelites have been uncovered... Coins refere
38 Fly777s : They were Jordanian citizens until 1967, when Israel seized control over the West Bank.... Afterwards, the Jordanians stripped them of their citizens
39 KiwiRob : Yup a large number of Palistinians had their land stolen form them to make a Jewish state, what's your point?
40 Fly777s : Well maybe if Europeans hadn't spent the better part of 2,000 years wrongfully brutalizing their Jewish populations, which ultimately culminated in t
41 Fly777s : The "Palestinians" you speak of had every opportunity to create their own nation at the same time Israel was established. They refused the offer. Who
42 EDKA : This is a quote from the open letter written by professor Dr. Denis MacEoin to the Edinburgh University Student Association following their vote to b
43 mffoda : My point is that none of these present day borders even existed until after WW1. And, if Turkey is so hell bent on getting the Palestinian's their la
44 lewis : If you follow the same logic, many of today's nations can claim back land based on archaeological evidence. This does not have any legal standing for
45 EDKA : They are just Arabs that lived in the region, they could have had their own state in 1947 or could have been part of Jordan. Ironically, they are now
46 ltbewr : There is one big reason for Israel to keep out these aid convoys - is to keep a defacto blockade in Gaza to keep out any possible weapons, bomb materi
47 Springbok747 : Not if they cross into Israeli territorial waters. Israel has every right to defend itself.
48 Post contains links iakobos : Who knows, perhaps even less than that http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010.../shlomo-sand-judaism-israel-jewish
49 Post contains links Centre : This might give you an idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement or how about the cause of the iraqi invasion into kuwait, how
50 mffoda : I guess you were not following my posts through out this thread... They were divided for sure, but not conquered by the the countries who ended up wi
51 Cadet985 : 129 countries...doesn't matter. To the US and Israel, it still won't exist. And in all honesty, if the UN wants to really annoy the US, then I say th
52 ME AVN FAN : - Erdogan IS one of the big boys as he is Prime Minister of the country with one of the most powerful armed forces between Reykjavik and Bangkok. Tur
53 Cadet985 : As I stated in my post...any military action on Israel would be met with by action from the US. Our ties with Israel go much deeper then those with T
54 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : That's pretty presumptuous of you. Most Palestinians may be Muslim, but as Arabs they're certainly not Kazakh, Uzbek, Persian or Albanian and as Pale
55 zalemam : LOL You can't just tell a group of people that have been living on a land for centuries, to just leave because jews were persecuted, when don't the G
56 Cadet985 : Jewish ties to that land go back to the Bible. It is the Promised Land. They kicked us out several times; turnabout is fair play. Marc
57 BMI727 : Do you really think that foreign policy should be based on a game of "My God is better than your God"?
58 TheCommodore : Oh yes it dose. The US has lost a lot of its moral authority lately in case you hadn't noticed, and not everybody sits up and "listen's" when the US
59 Post contains links Centre : are we in the 21st century yet? for the second time, I don't believe in your Bible, so this argument of promised land doesn't apply to in my common s
60 Post contains images Centre : You got to love the attitude of people like Cadet985, I, as American, definitely not pleased to see such an arrogant statement, and to feel that my e
61 KiwiRob : But why should the waters off Gaza be considered part of Israels territorial waters? If you've ever read the bible the jews moved to the promised lan
62 Baroque : Nicely phrased. The nature of modern US politics has most shaking their heads in disbelief, but surely there are limits. Peddling the strategic value
63 LXA333 : All I have to say is WOW to all the germans sucking up to jews in this thread, no reason to feel bad, the past is the past. You make yourselves look l
64 Springbok747 : Because there is no such thing as "Palestine" and the waters off Gaza are Israeli territorial waters. I wonder what would have been the reaction of t
65 racko : You might want to check with Armenia on that. Happens regularly, ask Italy. It doesn't make the news because it's usually done without 9 people shot.
66 Gunsontheroof : That's all well and good, but given the amount of time folks spend (rightfully) denigrating radical Islamist approaches to world affairs, I fail to s
67 Springbok747 : Jeebus...then why have they elected a terrorist group..i.e. Hamas..to run their country?! They don't care about peace, they just want to annihilate I
68 PanHAM : Could you kindly leave that up to the individual person? May be you suggest to the Palestinians to take the German post war politics as a role model.
69 EDKA : All of the Israeli Arabs (approx 20% of population) today are Palestinians by definition, but a) they don't call themselves Palestinians and b) they
70 Mortyman : * The UN was not set up to be the US toy and lapdog. * I always find it amusing how Americans always talk in negative ways of the UN, while you alway
71 par13del : Given that military budgets are falling, the USSR is not looking to invade Wwetern Europe anytime soon, and the Europeans don't really feel that a nu
72 mham001 : Actually, yes they did.
73 speedygonzales : Abosolutely, but blocking a humanitarian convoy to a population in dire need is a despicable act that has exactly zero to do with self defence.
74 Cadet985 : It has never been the policy of Israel to block these convoys. They do however, have a policy of asking these convoys to comply with inspections to e
75 par13del : Agreed, but for those sending the convoy via the country of one of the beligerants when they can easily go via Egypt can be regarded as a deliberate
76 JJJ : You have a very short memory then. And I guess your domestic media overlooks or downplays whenever the US receives international aid but, as an examp
77 777way : Thats news to me, kindly elaborate how this came about.
78 Post contains images lewis : No further comment... Ummm, no. That is my problem with Turkey's stance. I am against Israel's actions and the way they attacked the flotilla but, Tu
79 lewis : You got support for Katrina which was a large scale disaster. "Piece of garbage island?". I am happy that Americans are not filled with arrogance and
80 Cadet985 : Not my house per se, but look up Hurricane Irene. That did some big damage to the east coast, as has Tropical Storm Lee. There are people and busines
81 lewis : I live here and I have seen the destruction caused by all this. But seriously, you were comparing the likes of Somalia and Haiti to the US in terms o
82 Post contains links racko : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...onal_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina People in the US are not hungry or homeless because you couldn't provide for
83 777way : Lets not forget the well stocked FOOD stores, imagine stores catering only to eats, nothing else, maybe Kitchen ware at the most besides that.
84 Post contains links Mortyman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...onal_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina Nuff said ! and further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_Septe
85 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Hopefully there will be one day, and in the not to distant future Please furnish us with examples of the "other ways" to get aid in too Palestine. Um
86 Post contains links mham001 : This statement is so devoid of any historical context, it's incredible. The Turkish government - morally superior? Thats a joke, right? Turkish PM sc
87 Post contains links and images Springbok747 : How about the millions of tons of aid that currently passes into Gaza...on land? I wonder how many millions of tons that ship was able to carry..? ht
88 windy95 : The border with Egypt or allowing the ships to be inspected for weapons brings "aid" into Gaza all the time. It is the grandstanding like these floti
89 qantas077 : South Africa elected a terrorist to run their country, what is your point?
90 Post contains links Springbok747 : ? Zuma? He is far from a terrorist.. And in any case..how can you compare SA's incompetent president to Hamas..a terrorist organization that actively
91 NorthstarBoy : How is storming unarmed civilian vessels in international waters self defense in any sense of the word? Shouldn't NATO be more concerned that 1.5 mil
92 qantas077 : lol...short memory by the looks of it, cast your mind back further. Israel gave Sharon a stint as PM too, lovely fellow he is. I don't see you jumpin
93 racko : He's talking about Mandela. While on the topic of terrorists, both Israel and the PA have been led by former terrorists: Yassir Arafat, Menachem Begi
94 N537FX : Had the Egyptian security forces done their job and keep the Sinai safe, those 5 guys would probably still be alive. Its their own stupid fault that
95 windy95 : The fact that they smuggle arms in that way does not matter to you? Whose fault is it that they have over populated the area? And it is Hamas that is
96 777way : The most ironic thing I find about Springbok747s is he's of Indian ethnicity, he claimed so himself in some post long time back, so whats with the hat
97 luckyone : I think he was referring to the Afrikaner National Party that made Apartheid South Africa an effective police state.
98 windy95 : Why...If it is overpopulated and they cannot care for themselves whose fault is that? If they spent money on birth control instead of making rockets
99 777way : Arent Greeks majority Christian? its like say Pakistani Muslims, funny because majority are Muslim.
100 777way : Obviously you wont because he's supporting your apartheid regime, maybe thats how it was when was in South Africa as well. Ethnicity because Indian's
101 roguetrader : Every Palestinian was born there. Most Israelis were born elsewhere (Europe, Russia esp.) Refugees should displace natives because of the Holocaust?
102 Cadet985 : Israel gives back plenty. Many of the larger hi-tech companies have major research labs in Israel. The computer you're using probably has an Intel pr
103 777way : Ironic considering what they did in Lebanon and Gaza, I'm sure the intelligent Japanese must have seen through the PR stunt, BTW rumour has it they s
104 Fly777s : Not every "Palestinian" was born there. Yasser Arafat, the founder of the PLO was born in Egypt, for example.... Over 1,000,000 middle eastern Jews w
105 Fly777s : And guess what... Your "Palestinians" don't have a 2,000 year history on that land either..... Your "Palestinians" are Arab.... The Philistines, by w
106 777way : ^ Speaking of which how come there are white, black and mongol featured Jews, these races are not native to the region, I would imagine all 12 lost tr
107 roguetrader : 37 killed in postwar Europe, compared to how many 1000s in the Israeli wars, the anti-Israeli terrorism inflicted on America and othern western natio
108 damirc : I've held my mouth shut for long enough. I can listen to a lot of bull these days and not respond, but this one pushed it over the edge. Could you pl
109 Fly777s : It's funny how over 1,500 years of Jewish presence in Europe, they were persecuted for being outsiders - not native to Europe, but now that they are
110 windy95 : No. because I see no hate from his comments. But you still view him as an Indian even though he lives in Australia. SO he is not allowed an opinion b
111 Post contains links and images Centre : Just a little bit of a reading for you to enjoy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan If it wasn't for the blind support of our government to Israel, w
112 Fly777s : When the Palestinians take accountability for their own actions and elect a government that truly promotes peace, instead of a terrorist organization
113 777way : Sad part is Israel cannot be trusted even from relig No hatred for US support of Israel while the Palestinians are suffering. Why should anyone recogn
114 Fly777s : So Israel is the sole cause of our blemished reputation? So even if Israel didn't exist, our past with segregation.. our 50 years of sanctions on Cub
115 roguetrader : Yeah right...check into reality and you'll see time is running out to work out ANY deal for Israel. There was a time after the fall of the USSR when
116 Fly777s : And your country, Pakistan, can be trusted? Your government talks out of both sides of its mouth. Why should one support a Palestinian state? Especia
117 Post contains images damirc : Put the things into context please. What was going on (and still is) in Palestine and Israel in 1948? Do you think the Palestinian Arabs left their h
118 roguetrader : The primary cause is America's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan against two nations of no threat to America. Thank Douglas FEITH, William KRISTOL, Paul W
119 Fly777s : It's clear to see your disdain for Israel. You seem to have the desire for the end of Israel to come about and obviously not soon enough. Just rememb
120 N537FX : The Arab public has a lot to be upset with Israel about no doubt about it and I agree with a number of their points. Yet it seems that many are a bit
121 roguetrader : Another big problem with Israel applogists - any criticism of Israel brings out cries of "YOU WANT ISRAEL DESTROYED." Get over yourself. Few in Europ
122 Fly777s : What population was there abandoned their homes because surrounding Arab nations advised them to flee in preparation for their attack on Israel. The
123 roguetrader : Thats wonderful, Europe, the Chinese, Muslims everywhere and certainly the Palestinian are all glad you (and Israel) have decided under what conditio
124 Post contains images luckyone : Many of the major relations issues the world faces right now are vestiges of European Imperialism, add this one to the list. I think it's a bit bigge
125 Post contains links damirc : Well. War. Defensive war. Matter of perspective. The UN effectively gave Israel land that it had no right to give. The Jewish population of Palestini
126 Fly777s : Alright then. Let us give the Palestinians full right to deem what terms they want to abide by... Let them keep indoctrinating their children with hat
127 Post contains links and images damirc : Unfortunately true http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...s-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935 Worth a read. D.
128 damirc : But are you sure this would continue if the Palestinian people were allowed to live normal lives? They have tried this kind of life ... give them the
129 Springbok747 : Are you f*cking kidding me?! Again..are you f*cking kidding me?! So what if I am of Indian origin? Does that mean I cannot express my views? And yes.
130 roguetrader : Every Palestinian ended at the hands of Israel strengthens their cause. The reverse is not true. Israel is unquestionably a fantastic example of how
131 Fly777s : You know... This thread has done nothing but make an @ss out of many (myself included). For whatever reason the Israeli/Palestinian issue conjures up
132 Post contains images n229nw : My God. I would like to apologize on behalf of many American Jews for this post. While it seems to play into anti-Semitic stereotypes of Jews running
133 roguetrader : You alone are not the only one who is allowed to speak about Jews and the policy they may or may not support. ...likewise, me speaking about Jews and
134 LXA333 : So what have we learned from this thread, nothing will ever be fixed in that region. PERIOD.
135 PanHAM : You forget to say that the captain of that vessel did not comply with the request of the Israel Navy to board the vessel and inspect for contraband.
136 MD11Engineer : AFAIK, the main issue are dual use goods, like fertilizer for the Gaza farmers, which can also be used for making bombs or machine tools, which might
137 PanHAM : There's an easy solution to that, stop making bombs and rockets.
138 Centre : Pathetic!!!
139 damirc : Well, considering that female hygiene products, toilet paper and regular A4 office paper was banned until last year I really wonder how these items c
140 MD11Engineer : AFAIK, the main issue are dual use goods, like fertilizer for the Gaza farmers, which can also be used for making bombs or machine tools, which might
141 PanHAM : it would be a great idea for hamas to stop making bombs and to stops sending rockets across to Israel. It would be an even better idea to acknowledge
142 luckyone : Thanks! Definitely a good read. Definitely a dirty policy! Perhaps I should change my statement to "Nobody is getting systematically stripped of thei
143 MD11Engineer : The funny thing is that many Palaesininians are thinking the same way. When the Israelis left Gazah, there existed the idea of making Gazah an easter
144 Post contains links TheCommodore : There is also another easy solution which you fail to mention, and that is that Israel can stop antagonizing the Palestinians bu continually building
145 damirc : Suppose you were born a Palestinian in the Gaza strip. What would you do? Would you lay down to the oppression and chant religious songs? They are up
146 damirc : Well. 140.000 Palestinians lost their residency (mind you, they were born there, they were not migrants) in the 27 years, and imagine how many Israel
147 TheCommodore : Not true, the Israeli people themselves enjoy and profit from these illegal settlements. Also, the Israeli Government keeps the economy going by buil
148 MD11Engineer : The first time yes, as a reaction to the widespread corruption within the Fatah movement. Subsequent elections in Gazah were won purely through the u
149 Post contains images luckyone : I'm disagreeing with you at all. That was unquestionably coercion by the Israeli government. However, members of the Black race group in South Africa
150 windy95 : Have we not given equal support to Egypt and Jordan to keep the Peace? Do we not get credit for that? And what does supporting Israel have to do with
151 Post contains links damirc : Suggest you read up a bit on the real history. Several Palestinian villages were attacked and a few people shot with the rest forced to leave their h
152 PanHAM : Sure, the one would go with the other once trust is established. Oh, and BTW, you are not telling us that this was a free elction by any standards. H
153 MD11Engineer : Groups like Begin´s Irgun or Shamir´s Lechi (aka Stern Gang) would by today´s definition clearly labeled terrorists. They committed attrocities ag
154 Post contains links racko : As predicted, Erdogan is already backpedaling: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...to-gaza-during-egypt-trip-1.383779 He has big mouth but not the
155 windy95 : Ah yes the old give Egypt the free pass routine...laughable. Arafat had a deal that he turned down to the detriment of his people. No one to blame bu
156 777way : If my aunty was Israeli that wouldnt make me kiss her and all Israelis behinds and change my views of whats wrong to right, yes I would probably find
157 Post contains links windy95 : - Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, Se
158 SA7700 : This thread has been steered off-topic by a select few members and will be locked for further discussion. Please do not start a new thread without the
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