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Palestinian Bid For Statehood  
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6831 times:

Next week, will be the the annual UN General Assembly meeting.
The Palestinians will be seeking a vote of recognition for their statehood.
A handful of countries are opposing such a move, mainly Israel, the US and Canada.

Quote:
“Our government's long-standing position has not changed. The only solution to this conflict is one negotiated between and agreed to by the two parties,” said Chris Day, the spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird.

“One of the states must be a Jewish state and recognized as such, while the Palestinian state is to be a nonmilitarized one.”

To get full U.N. membership the Palestinians have to win Security Council approval. The US administration has said it will veto any resolution ensuring the further isolation of Israel and the US.
such a Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

Veto a State, Lose an Ally, by Prince Turki Al-Faisal

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/op...tate-lose-an-ally.html?ref=opinion

Quote:
If they fail in the Security Council, the Palestinians have said they will ask the General Assembly for enhanced observer status as a nonmember state. Even the more modest General Assembly vote, which the Palestinians are sure to win, would pave the way for them to join dozens of U.N. bodies and conventions, and could strengthen their ability to pursue cases against Israel at the International Criminal Court. But Israel would still control Palestinian territory, leaving the Palestinians disaffected after the initial euphoria.

Interesting times ahead!!!


I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
264 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
The US administration has said it will veto any resolution

Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met (such as recognition of Israel) or is it just a position to align with Israel's position?


User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6818 times:

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
such a Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

OH NO!!! Guess this will produce 15 more hijackers to come from that country.


User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
(such as recognition of Israel)

The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,
Canada on the other hand request the recognition of Israel as a "Jewish State" which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.
The US on the other hand wants everything to go through the peace processwhich Palestinians have lost faith in, and they say they have no issues continuing the peace process, except that it will be state to state going forward.

[Edited 2011-09-13 13:42:38]


I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6806 times:

The question is: Who will represent the Palaestine people? Currently there are two Palaestine "states":
HAMAs-controlled Gazah and FATAH-controlled Ramallah.
Since their first election victory HAMAS has been ruling Gazah with an iron fist, persecuting any kind of opposition, practically turning their area of control into a Sunni theocracy.
The FATAH in rRamallah is deeply divided into various factions and deeply corrupt.
Then there exists no viable territory for the new state. The current rightwing Zionist Israeli government has made sure that any possible Palaestinian state will be disintegrated into barely connected patches of land around Israeli settlements.

Jan

BTW, I doubt that this thread will stay long.


User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6806 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 2):
OH NO!!! Guess this will produce 15 more hijackers to come from that country.

Please keep this thread as civil as you can  .



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6796 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,

Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pa...o-deny-israels-right-to-exist.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6789 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
Canada on the other hand request the recognition of Israel as a "Jewish State" which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

While I support the recognition of Israel as an existing state in the borders of 1967 (because it undeniably exists, it is morally and practically impossible to carry out an ethnic cleansing to kick the existing Israeli population out, no matter where their ancestors originally came from, similar as the former German eastern provinces are now undeniably part of Poland, Russia, Lithuania and the Czech Republic (even though my family got driven out twice, once after WW1 and then again after WW2 and lost all their land). The younger generation having been born there feel connected to the land), I strongly oppose ANY definition of a state just belonging to a certain ethnic or religious group. The times of ethnic purity have been over since 1945 (or November 1946, when the main Nazi war criminals have been hanged in Nuremberg prison), even if Netanyahu and consorts deny it.
The best would be either a federation or an eastern mediterranean "EU". Jerusalem should go under international, neutral control until tensions have disappeared.

Jan

[Edited 2011-09-13 13:54:30]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?

There are restrictions, e.g. AFAIK an Israeli Arab, who gets married to non-Israeli Palaestinian, can´t bring his / her spouse to live within Israel, instead he /she has to leave Israel to live with the spouse.

Jan


User currently offlineN537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

That is a ridiculous argument. Arabs today in Israel have very well established livelihoods, yet i realize there is discrimination. But lets look at reality. Israel as it is today is a Jewish State by nature, then why is ARABIC an official language, why is Arabic written on every road sign, on the currency, etc. Surly they just want to look at the pretty calligraphy. Why are there Arab political parties, members of parliament, judges in courts of law, doctors, and professors?

I thought in a Jewish state, there would be no room for these things.


User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pa....html

I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue  
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?

to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.
Quote:
Jordanian king says Jordan will never be alternative Palestinian homeland, says "Jordan option" is a political fantasy.
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=237631



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6762 times:

Quoting N537FX (Reply 10):
That is a ridiculous argument. Arabs today in Israel have very well established livelihoods, yet i realize there is discrimination. But lets look at reality. Israel as it is today is a Jewish State by nature, then why is ARABIC an official language, why is Arabic written on every road sign, on the currency, etc. Surly they just want to look at the pretty calligraphy. Why are there Arab political parties, members of parliament, judges in courts of law, doctors, and professors?

I thought in a Jewish state, there would be no room for these things.

not according to this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...ld/la-fg-israel-arab-laws-20110324



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6714 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html

And the Ambassador provides a clear unbiased summary? Also check what he proposed in 2010 with what happened since. Like more and more settlements.

[Edited 2011-09-13 15:20:08]

User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6712 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html

from your linked article which is written by:

Quote:
Michael B. Oren is Israel’s ambassador to the United States.

He said:

Quote:
the Palestinians are still denying the Jewish nature of the state. “Israel can name itself whatever it wants,” said the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas,

So, while Palestinians recognize Israel as a sovereign state with the right to exist, they refuse to do so for Israel as a "Jewish State".
So they are only denying the Jewish nature of the state and not the state itself.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1946 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
While I support the recognition of Israel as an existing state in the borders of 1967 (because it undeniably exists... I strongly oppose ANY definition of a state just belonging to a certain ethnic or religious group.

I strongly agree with you on principle. An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however), ethnic groupings have been the justification for pretty much every self-declared state from the rise of nationalism in the early nineteenth century until today, and it seems hypocritical that every other group has made itself a country on these terms, but Israel could not. (Even the creation of a Palestinian state is based on the claims of "a people" to "a homeland.")

The entire idea of Israel was dreamed up (from the nineteenth century, even before the biblical claims got involved) as a homeland for the Jews (as an ethnicity, more than as a religion), at a time when every other European ethnicity was having revolutions and national movements to establish self-rule based on ethnic boundaries, and at a time when those very ethnic nationalisms were being used to treat Jews as perenial outsiders everywhere in Europe.

While you and I may see all ethnic nationalism as unhelpful, in the real world, there is no way, absolutely no way, that most Israelis will give up on the idea of Israel as an (ethnically) Jewish nation (and that is true even of 90% of secular Jewish Israelis who hate the Orthodox, religious Jews in their country).

The Palestinians would be wise to back down on demanding that Judaism be removed from Israel's statehood. Instead of grandstanding on principle, they should seek instead guarantees for how Arab citizens will be treated in Israel (and they should promise the same treatment for Jewish citizens a future Palestinian state--however few they may be in reality). With that obstacle out of the way, they would make their case for universal recognition much stronger to neutral parties, which is to their advantage, as their plan is in essence a bid to isolate Israel and the U.S. diplomatically, and build long-term momentum toward their cause.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6696 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 15):
Quote:
the Palestinians are still denying the Jewish nature of the state. “Israel can name itself whatever it wants,” said the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas,

So, while Palestinians recognize Israel as a sovereign state with the right to exist, they refuse to do so for Israel as a "Jewish State".
So they are only denying the Jewish nature of the state and not the state itself.

Imagine the outcry if Germany would re-introduce the Nazi "Ariernachweiß" (certificate of aryanhood) as pre-condition for German citizenship or even residence permit.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/op....html

Springbok,

I used to work with a white South African (Afrikaaner) Avionics engineer in CGN. He used to work for many years in Israel with IAI in Tel Aviv. During this time he had his family, including his two teenage daughters there. Both girls had grown up in Israel, went to school there, both spoke fluent Hebrew and both volunteered for military service in the IDF (which in Israel doesn´t mean stacking blankets, but can mean combat duty). Both of them intended to stay permanently in Israel. There was only one problem: They were not Jewish.
When IAI laid off employees and their father lost his job (this is why he went to Germany), the whole family lost their residence permits and had to leave the country, including the two young women, who were willing to risk their lives for the country they considered to be theirs.

Similarly Haaretz has reported about various deportations of non-Jewish children of immigrant workers and non-Jewish immigrants as well. A few years ago Netanyahu actually defended the deportation of non-Jewish children because "they would change Israel´s character as Jewish state".
I would love Israel to reach the 21st century.

Jan


User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6660 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):

But surely they cannot kick out Arabs/non-Jewish people who are citizens (not residents) of Israel?



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2074 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6608 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 18):


But surely they cannot kick out Arabs/non-Jewish people who are citizens (not residents) of Israel?


It's open to interpretation, but if you ironically paraphrase it as 'first they came for the violent Arabs... then they came for the [scapegoat of their choice]...'
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...iament-arabs-idUSTRE72R6OH20110328

I'm not sure of any civilized state that removes citizenship, even for acts of violence by 'some' of its citizens, but not others.
If you start basing citizenship on an interpretation of membership of a religion or race, you open yourself up to a whole new can of worms, less consistant with what one would call the Western liberalism of a large portion of Israel's founders, and more in keeping with Saudi-style theocracy. I can see how that appeals to US Christian Dominianist sensibility but it won't lead to any world I am keen on.
Personally I think Israel has a lot more to worry about than -external- threats!

[Edited 2011-09-14 04:26:50]


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2722 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
The US administration has said it will veto any resolution ensuring the further isolation of Israel and the US.

Sounds more like isolation for the Arabs in Gaza.

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

An ally that supports terrorist around the world...yeah

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Who will represent the Palaestine people? Currently there are two Palaestine "states":
HAMAs-controlled Gazah and FATAH-controlled Ramallah.
Since their first election victory HAMAS has been ruling Gazah with an iron fist, persecuting any kind of opposition, practically turning their area of control into a Sunni theocracy

Which is why the split of West bank and gaza will not work

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.

Correct

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue

Does it mean it is wrong?

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".

Is that from left wing source..

Quoting n229nw (Reply 16):
An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 16):
An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.

Including those who never came from Jordan and have never set a foot into this country?

Jan


User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

Without going into debates that will again get this thread closed let me just state the obvious fact ...

The UN Partition plan from 1947 called for 2 independent states according to the partition plan. One of them was created in 1948, the other finally has a chance to be created 64 years later (and yes, not in the borders of 1947/48, but that is okay - a lot of things have happened since then, and it's perfectly normal that the reality will be different).

The world owes them this much.

D.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met

A) The USA is a protectorate of Israel
B) The US foreign politics is defined in Israel
C) The Israeli Prime Minister defines
D) The advice of the Israeli leadership is recognized as law in the White House
-
in case of doubt, ask the Israeli ambassador to the USA, the man in charge
with US foreign politics

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,

Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

They do NOT want Israel to be wiped off the map ... but look for productive solutions

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.

This, Sir, is a pointless "argument" as Jordan is inhabited by lots of people from Palestine, but it is NOT Palestine, and Palestine is located WEST of the Jordan River. If the Israelis returned WestBank and EastJerusalem to Jordan, they THEN could claim that country to be Palestine-Jordan, but not before.

The other way round, if you say that Jordan is Palestine, then you of course support the claim of Jordan to at least the WestBank and EastJerusalem.

And finally, the Arabs
inside Israel proper
in East Jerusalem
in the WestBank
in the Gaza Territory
in a not too distant future will outnumber the Jews in all these territories combined.

The Israelis might remember why CDG was so eager to give independence to Algeria. Because he realized that 20 or mio Algerians would participate in democracy far more seriously than his own people, who the General regarded as "politically lazy". When President Mitterand saw that the French citizens of Maghrebine origin became a heavy factor in French politics, he created the "Institut du Monde Arabe" in order to give France some influence in Arab affairs.

I admit that it sounds like science fiction but I might favour Lebanon and Israel/Palestine and Jordan uniting into a federal country, possibly taking over the Jordanian King as constitutional head of state. There always would (will) be a majorty of a combination of free enterprise oriented folks plus economy oriented leftwingers who in combination would block our Muslim fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews for eternity  


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met

A) The USA is a protectorate of Israel
B) The US foreign politics is defined in Israel
C) The Israeli Prime Minister defines
D) The advice of the Israeli leadership is recognized as law in the White House
-
in case of doubt, ask the Israeli ambassador to the USA, the man in charge
with US foreign politics

I won't argue with that. But I am asking, what is the official reason given?

I was also surprised about Canada, why is there such strong opposition from them?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 25):
Really?

Weren't you supporting in another thread that the US was indeed run by the Jewish because of the power of the Jewish vote in the country? When you say something, you better stick to it.


25 TheCommodore : The US needs to think long and hard before they use veto this. As you say it will only serve to isolate the US with the the greater ME community. Non
26 victrola : And finally, the Arabs inside Israel proper in East Jerusalem in the WestBank in the Gaza Territory in a not too distant future will outnumber the Jew
27 DeltaMD90 : I know Israel has been picked on many years and is fighting an uphill battle most the time, but grow up, compromise, give them some land and statehood
28 Baroque : That appears to be why they are taking a hard line on expulsions. Can anyone think of another country making similar forced expulsions. I am unhappy
29 Centre : Thus the request for recognizing Israel as a Jewish state!!!
30 Babybus : There is obviously a need for a Palastinian state the way there was for a Jewish state. I say it's about time Palestine got defined borders and a gove
31 Aesma : Why is Canada asking for the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, is this something the US asked them to do so they didn't have to do it themselve
32 connies4ever : Basically because we have a one-man government (Steven Harper, PM) and he is an evangelical. And we all know how the evangelicals feel about Israel.
33 elmothehobo : The great irony in all this is that 63 years ago, Israel became a state through a very similar process. Israel and its allies will now deny another st
34 777way : Oh so now it being recongsied as a country with right to exist isnt good enough.[Edited 2011-09-14 20:20:16]
35 TheCol : Which Palestinian state? Last time I checked there were 2 separate Palestinian territories, one of which is being ruled by an Iranian backed Islamofas
36 SOBHI51 : Then why not return all Israeli immigrants to there mother countries? 100% BS If only i could get a Dollar each time somebody says that without a pro
37 windy95 : Well actually they all come from Trans-Jordan. Yes give them the right to return to all of the Muslim countries they where expelled from after 47-48.
38 SOBHI51 : Expelled or immigrated to the so called promised land? Real facts.
39 MD11Engineer : Oh, yeah? So the whole stretch of land between the Mediterranean and the river Jordan was completely empty until 1948? Jan
40 n229nw : He knows that is not what I meant...there is no point in arguing with him. Real facts are: both. Many were expelled and many left voluntarily. Same a
41 Post contains links Centre : Staying with the topic of the thread, It appears that the Palestinians will submit their bid on September 23: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...K
42 victrola : Israel still has not faced the fact that it will have to do something about the Arab inhabitans in the territories it has conquered. They only have th
43 Baroque : Not a lot you would think and gain quite a bit. One side in the argument tends to duchess large numbers of western world pollies at "leadership" foru
44 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : No "official reason" is given from the US side, but several Israeli Prime Ministers have been quite open about this thing, and usually explained it b
45 Post contains images Baroque : Thas about it. But even if #3 gets a bit further down its track, it is not going to be admitted. As for the others, "unthinkable". Interesting post M
46 Post contains images TheCommodore : I don't think you come across that sort of terminology much in Israel. And as for peace, Israel wants to continue building new settlements, so as lon
47 csavel : Actually US government support for Israel is driven more by *Christian* lobbying groups. I won't deny that the Jewish lobby is a powerful lobby, but
48 BA : That's as absurd as saying the Native Americans came from Europe. Jordan became the country it is today, thanks to ethnically cleansed Palestinians t
49 TheCol : Iran and Hamas would be the only 2 that wouldn't lose out. Then they obviously haven't thought it through very well. Better that than setting Israel
50 Post contains links TheCommodore : Actually it was my quote and not from Baroque, but never mind. Not sure where you are getting your info from, but according to this article below, yo
51 Post contains images Centre : As this thread has been going with a lot of informative posts and objective points of view, it would be highly appreciated to enlighten us further! I
52 Post contains links and images n229nw : "Not really correct"?--yet to counter this your "Evidence" that you post is an article from the director of an "institute" that denies that Holocaust
53 TheCommodore : and that is still my opinion. Mark Webers list various facts throughout his peace as you will have read, I cant find to many irregularities with thes
54 Baroque : As has been mentioned, not actually me yr honour. And as it happens I agree with just about all the points you make. And the factors you mention have
55 csavel : Yeah sorry Baroque when I quoted the other guy, your reply came in for some reason. Of course the other guy quoted rense.com so well, no reply to that
56 Baroque : No probs, gave me a chance to agree. And currently, fighting the combined eccentricities of Portuguese Google, wireless connection and a laptop track
57 connies4ever : Who wouldn't have more motivation to "think things through" than Israelis ? There seems to be no shortage of evidence that a huge swathe of israeli c
58 victrola : I see the possibility of #4 getting more difficult with every passing year. With the continued building of settlements it gets increasingly harder to
59 connies4ever : There is a realpolitik solution to that: pull back to defensible borders, something like 1967 with, as President Obama has said, "acceptable land swa
60 Baroque : At least they have a sense of humour, they brought their own seat!
61 comorin : Alas, they will probably find a Settler sitting in it ...
62 Baroque : Could be right, so just as well they did not bring a tent in that case or they would have a whole family.
63 photopilot : Oh come on now. If you go back to the early 1940's, wern't the Irgun, Haganah and Lehi just as bad. By any definition of the word terrorist, they wer
64 victrola : This is probably the most realistic solution. It seems like the only people who recognize the nature of the problem are the people who advocate going
65 Baroque : That was Connies4ever but as usual I agree with him so not much difference. Ah avoidance. Have been listening to it in spades on the BBC this afterno
66 roguetrader : A terrible flaw with democracy is that short term domestic considerations dominate the elected leadership. In the 24/7 media environment and the mill
67 Baroque : Nice precis. Gets everyone nowhere, except the pollies that really have no skin in what they make a "game". The bid has certainly stirred the possum/
68 LXA333 : US and Israel will feel the karma like a bitch in the years to come.
69 Asturias : So wait, the latest plan of the Palestinians now that they don't want to negotiate is to try to get state recognition in the UN? How unilateral of the
70 TheCol : I disagree. Israel would be at a strategic disadvantage. Please elaborate, because I don't see how the two current factions can run the same state. G
71 mariner : I was born (both parents British but not Jewish) in the Mandate of Palestine, which was no part of Transjordan. mariner[Edited 2011-09-16 14:32:19]
72 SOBHI51 : The whole world will agree with you, with on exemption, Israel.
73 victrola : How do you propose Israel wipe out Hamas? Short of exterminating the bulk of the Palestinian population, it isn't going to happen. If it's not Hamas,
74 Baroque : Ah "no" Sobhi, we have it on the authority of Mark Regev speaking for Bibi on the BBC and constantly talking down the interviewer, that settlements a
75 SFBdude : Sorry, I just had to fix that for you.
76 Post contains links and images Centre : http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/the-nakba-no-no/
77 victrola : Sobhi, While I understand your point have no intention of questioning the assertion that Israel is occupying Palestinian land, it is still debatable
78 connies4ever : Well, first off I'm not sure I'd call Fatah a truly democratic organisation, when Mr Abbas hhas now twice extended the term of his own office w/o the
79 ME AVN FAN : No, they are NOT running the same state. The PLO runs WestBank and East Jerusalem. Hamas runs the Gaza Territory Destabilizing the entire region is t
80 Baroque : Question: are the settlers now being called :"1967 boarders". If so, do they pay rent and to whom do they pay it?
81 Cadet985 : Doesn't Hamas already meet two of these criteria? I mean they will never agree to Israel's right to exist. I have serious questions that Fatah will.
82 SOBHI51 : Fatah already acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, when you sit and negotiate then that is accepting the other side, even with Hamas when they s
83 ltbewr : This attempt to get UN recognition of a Palestinian State seems to be a losing situation for everyone. Even if their is a majority vote in the General
84 Cadet985 : I have done some hard thinking about this issue today, and here is what I have come up with. As staunchly pro-Israel as I am, I do not think we will e
85 csavel : Well in all fairness, to the Palestinians, every settlement being built seems to be a unilateral gesture aimed at a solution w/o negotiations. I mean
86 Post contains images TheCol : Hamas and the other jihadists aren't a majority part of the population. In fact, most Palestinians would rather do without Hamas. He didn't really ha
87 SOBHI51 : The Golan heights are not part of Palestine, but are part of Syria. This idea of taking the highland is old fashion now with all the missiles and lon
88 Post contains links connies4ever : Another opinion: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...1/09/15/f-macdonald-palestine.html Coming from, I would gently suggest, someone with a lot mo
89 Post contains images Centre : It has been 63 years so far since the establishment of Israel, and the Israeli bet that Palestinians would have forgotten about it by this time has f
90 Post contains links TheCol : I agree. These conditions would be best. I don't disagree with that article. I just think the Palestinian Authority should concede to the above condi
91 windy95 : No the Arab's bet that Israel would be destroyed failed. Leaving the refugees to this fate..The" disaster" has been ongoing for 63 years due ot the i
92 SOBHI51 : Can you be clearer here? Did not understand.
93 Post contains images Centre : So, you do recognize that they are refugees Moving from one country to another is called immigration. To be a refugee....
94 windy95 : No the current group are not refugees. The initial lot from the 47-48 wars are..Along with the Jews that where expelled form Arab countries. How come
95 tu204 : One thing I don't quite understand that I would like to have cleared up for me: This issue is going to go before the GENERAL ASSEMBLY of the UN. No co
96 victrola : I believe that this is precisely his game plan. When it becomes geographically impossible for 2 states to exist in these territories, the only altern
97 SOBHI51 : You mean by that the people expelled after 1967 war? Legally Israel should return this land taken by force. Now for the refugees from 47-48 please gi
98 roguetrader : The way I understand it is that a kind of partial UN membership is available with General Assembly approval, while full membership privleges require
99 Cadet985 : Talking bad about Israel is bad enough, but calling the United States names like that is something I can't stand for. Remember, if it wasn't for the
100 Baroque : Funny thing history, I always though the Russian turfed the Germans out of Poland. Just like I always thought the UK and Australians turfed the Turks
101 Post contains links HELyes : It looks Norway is ready to recognize a Palestinian state, Haaretz.com: "Norway will recognize a Palestinian state, Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store
102 racko : And if it wasn't for the French, you would be singing God save the Queen. So please call Paris and ask what opinions you're allowed to have before yo
103 Cadet985 : I don't have to call Paris (besides, I want nothing to do with Paris or France). You see, one of the freedoms I enjoy in my country is the freedom of
104 roguetrader : Then don't stand for it. You see, one of the freedoms I enjoy in my country is the freedom of opinion.
105 Asturias : Well. Logically Jonas Gahr Støre then must think that the recognition of a Palestinian state in the UN *helps* future negotiations for peace... ever
106 tu204 : Yyyeahh, sure. I hope with all the cutbacks to education in the US they didn't stop teaching history. Read up on it when you have time. To save some
107 Post contains images Centre : The only purpose of such a comment, as I see it, is to shut down this thread.
108 Asturias : How exactly? I see it as: 1. Get Palestine recognized as UN member state (or at least observing member) 2. ??????? 3. Profit. What are they trying to
109 Post contains links roguetrader : I think it is more than a resolution; my understanding is that they are likely to be granted UN status similar to The Vatican, which allows a greater
110 Asturias : Israel (and the US for that matter) are not parties to the ICC. Thus the ICC can not try a US citizen or state official nor an Israeli. No matter whe
111 windy95 : Legaly they should return nothing.. Because they left after the Arab league attacked Israel but failed to win. It was the Arabs loss..If they wouls o
112 Asturias : Indeed, it seems like a red herring - it is quite irrelevant in this discussion. I don't understand what the PA is attempting with this stunt. It's b
113 roguetrader : Agreed the US has already damaged itself and enhanced its appeal to terrorism financiers with Israel, Iraq, etc..but there's nothing like yet another
114 Post contains links TheCommodore : What ? Justification to twist arms because the PA have betrayed previous negotiations..... oh boy. Its Israel that keeps building settlements when th
115 Asturias : Agreed, but surely the goal of the PA is not so nihilistic as to attempt to coerce consent from the US under implications of increased risk of terror
116 Post contains links slider : Some salient points that no one seems to be discussing here, among the heated rhetoric... http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...9/no-palestinian-stat
117 TheCommodore : You stated that the PA had betrayed previous negotiations, I see it, and many others see it differently. Israel has continued to build settlements, w
118 slider : yeah, and that's the problem that the West in general will have. They have a foot in the door, they have a radical Islamism revolution going on in ma
119 roguetrader : The US is at at its weakest on the international stage since the Vietnam War. The Palestinians know this and if there is a moment that is least likel
120 Baroque : It will be obviously be an awful disappointment to some if the Arab spring goes "seriously wrong" and turns up any, if indeed not a majority, of moder
121 Post contains images Centre : Legally, the word "return" is for giving back something that doesn't belong to you . Last I checked it's called the Arab Spring! So, what do you sugg
122 roguetrader : Don't forget to include in your equation what supporting Israel costs America. There is the $3-4 billion Americans borrow from the Chinese to send to
123 racko : While I agree that nothing particularly fruitful is going to come about from the UN bid, what else are they supposed to do? Demonstrations yield nothi
124 Post contains links 777way : True, here is a list of Palestine Embassies and Consulates abroad http://embassy.goabroad.com/embassies-of/palestine# proper missions, not representa
125 777way : Petition has croseed way over the 1 million required and more signatures are pouring in.
126 Post contains links and images Centre : You may add $over $2 Billion ( of which $1.3 Billion as millitary aid) to Egypt and around $1 Billion to Jordan, both for making and maintaining peac
127 Asturias : Also more than 1 billion $$s for Palestine every year from the US. There's hardly a player in the US that isn't being paid. I suppose it's AIPAC that
128 Post contains images Centre : $587M for 2010 and $513M for 2011. Again, and for the millionth time, Israel is interested in maintaining the status quo as it is. Now, why is it ok
129 Post contains links 777way : 24 hours left, 100, 000, 000 goal completed now seeking 200,000 more signatures, watch the update page keeping track of signatures coming in http://av
130 Post contains links EDKA : Nice way to start a new country.... i wonder how many people here share the same view?... "Maen Areikat, the Palestine Liberation Organization's "amba
131 Baroque : You chose not to refer to the comments, wonder why? Here is but one of the six 60 17 View > He didnt say that correctly, he meant Palestinian Stat
132 N537FX : Instead of referring to comments posted by random people online, why don't you provide a source from a news outlet that reported him saying the state
133 EDKA : I have made reference to an article, not to the comment of an individual...If you choose to prioritise a comment by individual over the entire articl
134 Post contains links and images Centre : The article linked is an editorial and opinion rather than news!! The article is written by Moshe Arens, an avid Likud member, and former minister of
135 slider : Pretty ironic that you cite the need to recognize the Palestinians' right to exist when it's official state policy in much of the Middle East to deny
136 Asturias : In what reality is that? Israelis actually have to live there, they can't all just be really indignant in front of their computer. Israel wants peace
137 MD11Engineer : It is not fair, but they´ll have to get over it, similar to the German ethnic group kicked out of the former German eastern provinces after WW1 and
138 Post contains images Centre : Typical labelling. I rest my case
139 Post contains links and images Centre : a very interesting read today at the Independent by one of my "favorite writers" Robert Fisk: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...ver-be-the-same-a
140 slider : Can't handle the truth?
141 777way : I like this part
142 Asturias : Apparently, truth is not of any interest to the thread starter. Israel == evil and Palestine arabs == poor little mistreated angels, in his POV. Some
143 Post contains images EDKA : The reference is not made to a quote made by Moshe Arens, but by Maen Areikat.... whats your point? You are confused, its always been the other way r
144 777way : Funny there was a time when it used to be the other way around. If you watch the video in post #125 then definitely evil, only those lacking a consci
145 Asturias : Why is that funny? Strange funny or haha funny... either way, how is that "funny"? Yeah, I don't watch propaganda videos, but I'm sure it depicts Isr
146 Post contains links N537FX : Even though the link was an editorial, he did in fact say the state should be without Jews http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/s...future-state-israel
147 Post contains links roguetrader : If that's true then they've got a buddy in the [relatively] declining American power and a buddy in the rising Chinese world power which is obviously
148 777way : Any ways its but natural for losers and the increasingly isolated and their supporters to do posturing its all they've got left.
149 Post contains links TheCommodore : Um ..... I think many thousands of Palestinians would disagree with you there ! They struggle to exist everyday. And Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary Ge
150 victrola : The 2 state solution is all but dead. The West Bank has been so carved up by the Israelis that it would now be almost impossible to put together a Pa
151 Asturias : In no way does that make sense, your english is rather poor, but what's even worse it doesn't answer my question that I posed to you. This bid for UN
152 777way : Funny as in Ironic, got it now? as for English, not my native tongue, in case you tried to get personal and embarrass me with that tactic, says alot.
153 washingtonian : It always amazes me how people ignore recent history, yet along 20th century history. A short summary: Israel offered a 2-state solution with generous
154 washingtonian : More importantly, do my fellow Americans agree with me that we should cut off aid to the UN and/or Palestinians if they continue down this horrendous
155 victrola : If it is not about land, what is it about? You have 2 groups of people who have been fighting over who has a right to live in this territory for over
156 Asturias : There now, that wasn't trying to get personal, I simply couldn't understand what you wrote. Especially since you quoted my post, but didn't answer my
157 Post contains images TheCommodore : What about this instead... "More importantly, do my fellow Americans agree with me that we should cut off aid to Israel if they continue down this ho
158 777way : The gall. Absolutely. I'm not embarssed by siding with the Palestinains at all and whatever they resort to to seek justice, as you can see almost the
159 roguetrader : Except for your pejorative comments about Palestinians, I think it might just be the perfect thing for Israel to do to "let" them have a state (as if
160 Cadet985 : We should have cut off aid to the Palestinians long ago. I also think that the UN should be encouraged to get out of the US. We can't evict them or a
161 roguetrader : The great thing for the Palestinains and their financiers is that Israel and their American financiers can so often be counted on to play right into
162 csavel : I don't think New York can cut off utilities to an entity. Con Ed wouldn't want to lose a customer. As a New Yorker, as useless as I think the UN is,
163 victrola : I can understand many objections to a Palestinian state. However what is the alternative? If Israel want's to keep the land, what does it do with its
164 roguetrader : The only justification Israel and its American protector have for wanting to deny a Palestinain state is, as far as I can tell, the tactical calculat
165 Cadet985 : I can't say for sure, but I don't think that the UN pays for its electricity.
166 Asturias : The ends do not justify the means. Looking at what Palestinians have done, the nihilistic and cowardly choices they've made - it's almost poetic just
167 NW747400 : The fact that you are not embarrassed by supporting "whatever they resort to to seek justice" is quite telling, especially considering that they have
168 TheCommodore : I think you should really be addressing that to Bibi, because every time he retaliates by lobbing back a few missiles into Gaza, he's doing just that
169 Post contains links Quokka : How I love your posts: they can always be relied upon to inject humour. Care to mention a few so that we can see how respectable they are? How I love
170 n229nw : Wonderfully half the story: 2002: Israel is offered full recognition and normalized relations with all its neighbors by the Arab League. Sharon rejec
171 NW747400 : There is a HUGE difference between purposefully targeting innocents (terrorists) and targeting terrorists but having unfortunate civilian casualties
172 victrola : What if they refuse to leave? Will Israel start a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" ala Yugoslavia? Will the U.S. still stand by Israel when it begins t
173 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : -- A) The Israelis are NOT losers at all and as soon as they start ot realize where they have put up lodgings and come to terms with facts they will
174 777way : Sadly thats how it beeing made to work, taking sides based on religion, the issue maybe political but for most Muslims its not and it dosent seem to
175 777way : What do you expect them to shut up and take it all in for a pat on the back from the West on their patience and tolerence and let it all fester? its
176 Post contains images NW747400 : You are right, I will never understand walking into a crowded market and blowing yourself in order to kill innocent civilians. I'm so tired of this e
177 TheCommodore : No, your not wasting your time at all. I am perfectly aware of the effects that blowing yourself up will cause, however I am also perfectly aware tha
178 777way : ^ When things cross a limit rational thinking goes away, its wrong but happens and mind you its not approved by Islam either what they are doing is st
179 NW747400 : So, am I correct that you seem to be inferring that killing innocent civilians with suicide bombers is fair payback for building settlements? There i
180 TheCommodore : For every action, there is a consequence. And, as you say "That is an unfortunate consequence of war." And BTW, not every suicide bomber is targeting
181 NW747400 : They have occasionally preemptively struck these targets. However most of the time it is a retaliatory strike. As to why they do not target these pla
182 777way : Israel also sent bombs across to Lebanon or Gaza few years back, with kids photographed writing messages on them, which was discussed and widely conde
183 Post contains links roguetrader : Intentions are not the only considerations = RESULTS are even more important than intentions. The number of Palestinians dead at the hands of the Isr
184 Post contains links roguetrader : Some up to date figures which details civilians and children killed by both sides: http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp
185 racko : Terrorism is just warfare of the weak. You hit soft targets because you can't hit the hard targets. Give them a few hundred F-16s and a few thousand t
186 EDKA : Everyone is of course is entitled to their opinion, and its normally hard to find an unbiased one when it comes to Israel/Palestine issue, however....
187 windy95 : They do have a border with Egypt. So why do you continue to say that israel is boycotting them? Thanks to Hamas, corruption and overpopulation this i
188 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Whatever, the term, at war may be technically wrong but it is certainly a conflict, and one hell of a one at that. According to Wiki, every person in
189 EDKA : I am talking about reservists, not the mandatory military service? maybe you would like to answer my question? "how does unguided rocket fired from t
190 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : I suppose the same way a guided missile misses it target and kills 3 innocent Palestinian children. Sometimes technology lets you down. http://www.us
191 Post contains images EDKA : I guess its hard for you to make the difference between a guided missile that "misses its target" and hits civilians and unguided missile that is int
192 Derico : The ONLY reason I agree with the bid for statehood is because unfortunately it may be the only way to try to finally end settlement expansion by Israe
193 Post contains links Centre : http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/op...stinians-bid-for-statehood.html?hp It seems that Obama has bought Israel sometime, but for how long?
194 Post contains links Centre : It's offical, President Abbas has submitted the application for statehood to the UN Security Council as a full member. It's a historic moment for all
195 777way : Excellent sadly US clout is having Saudi and Qatar governments go against their Palestinians brothers, shame on them too.
196 Post contains links Dreadnought : How about those of Gaza? They elected Hamas. http://www.ilsa.org/jessup/jessup07/basicmats/icj_advisory_opinion.pdf If, while requesting permission t
197 Post contains images TheCommodore : For how long you ask ? Like ever other US president. A puppet of Israel.
198 Post contains images Centre : It's a moment of celebration, non the less
199 Baroque : Funny I just read the main gist of reply 196 in the letters column of the SMH, not his usual read I suppose. Is that the suggested script being circul
200 N537FX : If they wanted the state the Mandate promised them, then why in 1948 did they start a war?? It is their problem that they lost the war. Funny because
201 SOBHI51 : Sources please.
202 777way : This I agree with. Source is public but I have sent it through your PM, dont want another debate started on that.
203 Dreadnought : What is the SMH? The questions I posed are obvious, as is the question of what other "nations" with unclear borders, a government that cannot govern
204 racko : The significant difference for those mentioned is that at least for the host nations considered democratic, they have the right to vote. If Israel ga
205 Post contains links and images Asturias : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo Pretty good and informative video, by the deputy foreign minister. ast.
206 777way : Propaganda that 90% of the world did not fall for ever nor will now, nice try hypocrite DFM, and why are you wanting others to see stuff when you dont
207 damirc : Propaganda at it's best. It's hilarious how skewed the view presented is and how inconvenient facts are not even mentioned. Well at least Mr. Ayalon
208 Baroque : And competition for Baghdad Bob at its best!
209 Post contains images Asturias : What, a propaganda video from the Israeli deputy foreign minister???!! ..... [/feigned shock] Of course it is "propaganda" and of course he is presen
210 777way : Luckily this os one of those issues that even if there are no factual errors, nobody cares they want Palestine as a country, which to me in the factua
211 roguetrader : Not at all hypocritical that he selectively quotes the few early UN resolutions that support his view and offers a UN blessing as proof for his versi
212 Post contains links Baroque : Correct and in more detail from Wiki: The British Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Palestine Mandate, The British Mandate of Palestine and th
213 connies4ever : I believe a warrant was issued for Tzipi Livni, then the Foreign Minister of Israel. This act caused her to pass on an official visit to the UK. Ther
214 Post contains links connies4ever : I had not read this article when I made my last post on this topic, but I believe it to be a very well thought out position paper on why a State of Pa
215 lychemsa : LOOOOL The Economist taking "reasonable positions?" What will happen when they start firing rockets at Tel Aviv?
216 Asturias : Yes, that's quite the LOL-statement, if ever there was one!! On topic: now that the PA has applied to the UN, when is there going to be a vote on thi
217 Post contains links janmnastami : They have been found guilty, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Omar_case#Convictions .
218 Post contains links connies4ever : They have been found guilty, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Omar_case#Convictions . Thanks for that ! My respect for the Italian judge goes up ... I
219 Asturias : I'm sorry, what does "eudite" mean? As for the Economist, it's known for anything else than taking "reasonable positions". It takes positions, yes..
220 connies4ever : Oops, my bad. Meant erudite. From Wikipedia: The word erudition came into Middle English from Latin. A scholar is erudite (Latin eruditus) when instr
221 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : It will be several more weeks away yet..... Stay tuned for more on that as I'm sure you will ! In the mean time hnowever, Palestinian Spring under wa
222 Asturias : No argument there. Yes, well my question was more of a technical nature - as in from the perspective of the UN; now what? What is delaying a vote for
223 Post contains links Globeex : I guess on the same grounds as the 1100 new housing units in East Jerusalem that just have been approved. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/worl...n-ea
224 TheCommodore : Yes well, as you say, Palestine acceptance into the UN is a little more "technical" than Sudan's admittance, so it will take time. Thanks to Israel !
225 Post contains links Centre : Another slam in the face of the US administration efforts to bring parties to the peace table. Sometimes, it makes you wonder, what is Israel countin
226 Baroque : And yet their reaction seems to be to say the least "passive". The Middle East record for Obama strikes me so far as: 1. Passed ME 101 with high dist
227 Centre : On a second note, the Israeli decision to build the 1100 units in "Gelo" comes as a prelude to the UN security council decision discussion of Palesti
228 Baroque : Do you think that the Deans of the Faculty will permit Obama to enrol in ME 201 after his performance in ME 102? So far he does not even come on the
229 roguetrader : The Israelis believe their purchase of the US congress gives them the upper hand..... The Palestinians believe that world sentiment gives them the up
230 Globeex : Israel also still thinks that the European sentiments are giving them thee upper hand.This however is changing. Due to European history where Jews we
231 ME AVN FAN : This is a highly justified question BUT > the West Bank government controls the main part of Palestine > the Gaza Territory increasingly become
232 connies4ever : I am very agreeable that Jews from around the world should have a homeland (and the Cstholics, etc, etc). But since it was Europeans who committed th
233 Centre : And Palestinians are the ones to pay the price? Almost one third of Germany was taken away and given to Poland after WWII as a compensation for what
234 Globeex : I agree that that the Arabs shouldn't pay for it. However, giving the Israelis land is harddly a pareto efficent decision as you hard can create land
235 DeltaMD90 : Didn't Palestine belong to the British in the late 1940s? Just trying to verify my history...
236 connies4ever : Technically a League of Nations "mandate" granted after WW 1.
237 Post contains links Centre : Back to the topic: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...d-Goes-to-Committee-130710883.html
238 Post contains links Baroque : Looks as if the Palestinians are now willing to state what must have been the bleeding obvious for a coon's age. Presumably this is an indirect part o
239 Quokka : Surprisingly some Jewish people did in fact choose to remain in Europe at the end of WWII. Some, unable to return to Poland and other eastern states,
240 777way : Do the illuminati have an interest in seeing a Palestinian state established?
241 Post contains links Centre : No Wonder!! considering his relationship with Murdoch !!! Hasn't he turned Catholic? Maybe it has to do with this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar
242 Post contains links 777way : Something interesting http://davidehg.wordpress.com/2011/0...E2%80%99s-isolationist-opposition/
243 Post contains links Baroque : Here is an interesting take on the occupation. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2...-occupation-palestine-s-case-1.asp Costs of occupation – Pales
244 Post contains links Baroque : Transcript now up on ABC site. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2011/s3331496.htm PETER CAVE: The US congress has blocked about $200 million i
245 MD11Engineer : Actually since the end of Cold War Jewish communities in Germany have been growing again, mainly due to Jews from the former Soviet Union settling in
246 Post contains links damirc : Jan, want an eye opener? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmRnAkUyWs0 Why I am very much displeased with Israel. The people who made Israel possible are
247 MD11Engineer : Correction: Over the last several hundfred years there were controversies about certain regions in Eastern Europe if they should be Polish or belong
248 777way : Quite a revelation, especially towards the end that woman begging for help and some fat arse sipping on wine at the opposite end, I thought they were
249 Post contains links TheCommodore : Sure did. Btw, heard yesterday fleetingly on the ABC Mark Colvin radio show, an interview with the head of the Arab League. He stated that the League
250 Baroque : Erekat comes across as a better diplomat than Blair, but then again, that is probably not difficult. Saeb Erekat is the chief Palestinian negotiator.
251 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Well now, this is the reaction stirred up buy the US holding back on desperately needed aid. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ts-during-west-ban
252 Baroque : Mark Colvin has followed up the Erekat interview trying to get a reply from Netanyahu. Here is the result. net.au/pm/content/2011/s3333035.htm MARK CO
253 Post contains links Centre : One more development for today: Palestinian nearing UNESCO full membership as the UNESCO board members (equivalent to the UN Security Council) approve
254 Baroque : As the late Benny Hill's song goes, "Stick your fingers in your ears and go TIng a ling a look". Two difference planets at work here. Well maybe thre
255 Post contains links Centre : An article by one of my favorite writers of NY Times. [bold] Is Israel Its Own Enemy?[/bold] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/op...l-its-own-worst-en
256 roguetrader : Despite America's nominal agreement with Israel on the Palestinian statehood issue, I think its becoming clear that Israel and the Obama administrati
257 Centre : The Palestinians realize the game right now, and they are playing it well. they are taking their cause to every international venue they can reach...
258 roguetrader : For now. I've seen 30+ years of self destructive Palestinian infighting so we'll see if they can keep it together long enough to make progress. Did i
259 ME AVN FAN : Since President Abbas succeeded to separate Palestine from Gaza, Palestine has become economically viable again. Different of course in case of Gaza
260 Quokka : Really? I mean no disrespect but I can not see how you arrive at that conclusion. Hitherto discussions of Palestine have included both the West Bank
261 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Not exactly sure about that, but if Palestine had received all this aid, (see link below) then things word surely be better. Have a close read of the
262 roguetrader : I certainly hope thats true, do you have any more info or articles somewhere that discuss this??? ...When I visited the West Bank about 3 years ago t
263 Baroque : I wonder if MAF means more that it could become so??? Meanwhile, while they warn against the dangers of terrorism, settlers will make life as uncomfo
264 roguetrader : boilerplate disclaimer: I support and sympathize with Israel and the historical justification for a Jewish homeland - once created we can not now aba
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