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Southern CA Police Officer Charged With Murder  
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/death-318074-thomas-district.html

Orange County California prosecutors charged a Fullerton police officer with murder on Wednesday, saying he launched a lethal assault on a homeless man with the words: “My fists … are getting ready to F you up.”

A second officer, accused of repeatedly smashing victim Kelly Thomas in the face with a Taser, was charged with involuntary manslaughter


I'm pretty sure this story has been in the news coast to coast. Today, 11 weeks after the incident, one of the six officers involved in the arrest and subsequent death of a homeless man has been charged with 2nd Degree Murder and Involuntary Manslaughter. If convicted, he faces 15 years to life in prison. A second officer has been charged with Involuntary Manslaughter and Excessive Use of Force Under the Color of Authority. If convicted, he faces 4 years in prison. I wasn't there so I don't know what truly happened. But, from witness statements and audio and video tapes, it appears the charges against the two officers are warranted. Unfortunately, the deceased parents have turned into media whores and, based on some of their statements, their credibility has come into question. And of course we've had the media adding fuel to an already volatile situation by posting a picture of the deceased's badly swollen and bruised face shortly after the incident. Doing so served no purpose but, that's the media for you. Hopefully, the defense will move for and be granted a change of venue as, thanks to the media, these two officers will not receive a fair trial anywhere in Southern California.

So, let the cop bashing begin...

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

Is the death penalty warranted in this case?  


A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

The thing about the so called "pro-cop" crowd is that nearly any kind of criticism of a police officer other than the union, thanks Gov. Kasich is surmount to being anti-police and you hate them all. I know police risk their life every day when they put on the uniform to protect the citizenry and god knows they have to take shit sometimes from the citizenry too. Thay are heroes too just like firemen and soldiers.

In that respect a police officer who has done what that police officer allegedly did should be held accountable for his actions, he is a citizen too. I am not going to defend "bad apple" cops but a fair trial is always warranted.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
Unfortunately, the deceased parents have turned into media whores and, based on some of their statements, their credibility has come into question.

Well that sad thing is that until the father took it to the press, the entire thing was going nowhere. The officers involved were still on full duty four weeks after the event. It was media pressure that got things actually moving and getting a serious look.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Is the death penalty warranted in this case?

No, and it is not on the table.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 2):
I know police risk their life every day when they put on the uniform to protect the citizenry and god knows they have to take shit sometimes from the citizenry too. Thay are heroes too just like firemen and soldiers.

The term "hero" has gotten thrown around far too much nowadays. "Hero" is a term that is earned by actions. extraordinary actions. not just from employment or volunteering for something potentially dangerous. But that aside, serving in law enforcement, fire protection, and/or the armed services is a noble and worthwhile, and takes a special person willing to give themselves over to the task.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5414 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1457 times:

By and large, I will give the police the benefit of the doubt and wide discretion in the use of force. But, if half of what I've seen and heard is true about this, the officers involved need to be held accountable.

I'm not quite there on the murder charge, though. Manslaughter, yes, but murder?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

Well being extremely pro-cop, they should face the same justice as everyone else. That being said, there are a lot of stresses and unique circumstances that go into policing, and I hope a competent judge and jury will decide the right choice, not a bunch of a.net members.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 1):
Is the death penalty warranted in this case?  

Isn't it banned in California?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):

Isn't it banned in California?

I'm sure they will make an exception for a cop.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
I'm sure they will make an exception for a cop.

Stupid, pointless, unnecessary, and baseless comment.

Understand this, California appreciates it's law enforcement.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1378 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Well being extremely pro-cop, they should face the same justice as everyone else. That being said, there are a lot of stresses and unique circumstances that go into policing, and I hope a competent judge and jury will decide the right choice, not a bunch of a.net members.

I feel the same way. Everyone deserves their due process. Although in this case I'm not sure there were any unique circumstances. The police deal with drunk, homeless people all the time. The reports I've read is they tazed this man up to 5 times and continued to beat him well after he stopped resisting and they were on his back.

I saw the photo of the guy they killed after they beat him, he was almost unrecognizable.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7173 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1357 times:

This will be a very interesting case one which will probably take a long time and I think will be a difficult one for the State to present.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1959 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
Unfortunately, the deceased parents have turned into media whores and, based on some of their statements, their credibility has come into question.

If two cops beat someone's son to death they have a right to be plenty upset about it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
I'm sure they will make an exception for a cop.

Classy as always. Why do you imply that Californians hate police? Why do you hate Californians so much?


User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1323 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 7):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
I'm sure they will make an exception for a cop.

Stupid, pointless, unnecessary, and baseless comment.

Understand this, California appreciates it's law enforcement.

Tugg

  
...not that I expected better.

I don't see why a police officer should get special treatment. California has not banned the death penalty, and if the officer's actions meet the standard for it, then he should have to pay the price. This is after all, the right thing to do.

California (or any other place, for that matter) should appreciate and respect its law enforcement but it shouldn't be afraid to pass due judgment on them.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

What this police officer did was wrong, uncalled for, and he definately should be held accountable for his actions.

That being said, the man was homeless, where was the family at to help him when he was homeless, they are only upset now that he is deceased but did not care that he was homeless. The family's 15 minutes of fame here as well.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5588 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 12):
That being said, the man was homeless, where was the family at to help him when he was homeless, they are only upset now that he is deceased but did not care that he was homeless. The family's 15 minutes of fame here as well.

You really no nothing about the case, that much is apparent. This has been in the news here in SoCal for a while now and it is quite apparent that the parents very much did care about their son and did try to support him as best they could.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 10):
If two cops beat someone's son to death they have a right to be plenty upset about it.

I'm not disputing that but, if you have read some of their statements, you would know what I am talking about. What the press and the Thomas family have now buried is the fact that the parents called the police on their son in the past more than once because they were in fear of their safety. There was actually a physical altercation between son and mom during which he tried to strangle her with his hands. In statements made to the Orange County Register, both mom and dad have tried to downplay that (after obviously being coached by their civil atty.) but the fact is, Kelly did have a violent history. Did he deserve to die in the manner he allegedly did? No, of course not. But, in my opinion, mom and dad didn't do everything within their power to get their son the help he needed.

As to the murder charge, Ramos is also charged with Involuntary Manslaughter in the event the jury is more comfortable finding him guilty of a lesser charge. Either way, it doesn't look good for either officer and the Feds haven't made a decision on civil rights violations yet either. After that will come the multimillion dollar lawsuit which, and this wont go over well but, being the victim was homeless and jobless, should his parents truly be granted millions of dollars over a wrongful death suit? Yeah yeah, I know, he was still a human being and didn't deserve to die the way he did but, once you get past that, I ask the same question...are his parents entitled to millions of dollars? I say no.


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 13):
This has been in the news here in SoCal for a while now and it is quite apparent that the parents very much did care about their son and did try to support him as best they could.

Maybe so, but he was still homeless. Does it speak well of the parents? Can't say. The man had schizophrenia and could have very well denied assistance from them.

I'm more concerned about the behavior of the officers in question here. I don't care if its Osama bin Laden, you have a duty as an officer to uphold the laws, respect the uniform, and maintain a professional demeanor. However, these officers clearly did not. Let us see what the courts say.



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1154 times:

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
Let us see what the courts say.

Hopefully the media circus dies down. I'm not saying the cops here are innocent (it's looking like they probably aren't) but it wouldn't be the first time the stupid media has made legitimate police actions look criminal...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9368 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

Now, that surprises me, why only one of the six officers?

It was just discussed in the Troy Davis thread - example 2 guys - or in this case let's say 6 guys rob a licquor store and one shoots the clerk, all six will be convicted for murder.

Now, here 6 cops stood around and one of them beat an unarmed innocent giy to dath and only one cop is charged with murder, resp.man-slaughter.

Explain this stupid European the logics please. My logoic is, in the licquor store case none of the other five could have prevented their mate from shooting.

The other 5 cops could very well have taken that predator off his victim.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
It was just discussed in the Troy Davis thread - example 2 guys - or in this case let's say 6 guys rob a licquor store and one shoots the clerk, all six will be convicted for murder.

I don't know the fine details of either case, but it seems like in Davis' case he was helping perpetrate a crime, whereas in this case, the cops did not step in and prevent the death. Clear difference IMO. Also don't forget, with a vast country such as the US and the different personalities of authorities and judges, you will notice some discrepancies between similar cases. I do see a difference, though, but there is still guilt in the other officers' actions (assuming they are guilty in a fair trial, let's not jump to conclusions and declare anyone guilty yet, that would be unjust)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
it wouldn't be the first time the stupid media has made legitimate police actions look criminal...

Not that it's uncommon for the police to use the stupid media to make ordinary citizens look like criminals. That street does run both ways.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1134 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
Not that it's uncommon for the police to use the stupid media to make ordinary citizens look like criminals. That street does run both ways.

Uh did I imply that? US law enforcement has it's problems...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Uh did I imply that?

You kind of implied that it's unfair to the police (or at least that's how it came across). Which it would be if they didn't play the same game when it suits them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9368 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
whereas in this case, the cops did not step in and prevent the death. Clear difference IMO. Also don't forget, with a vast country

That is understood. However, there are some fine lines, watching the cop beating this poor fellow for 10 seconds and then stepping in would clear them, but having them watch until the nguy was dead would be IMHO felony murder.

Here they would definately be suspended and at least charged with failure to give assistance. May be 2 years on probation each but the career would be terminated.

We had a case where a kidnapper was only verbally threatened with torture if he would not disclose the location of his victim by the deputy chief of police in FRA. The police officer was convicted, he had to pay a fine and his career was finished. That kidnapper still sues for compensation and was awarded € 3500,00 but the state appeals.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1122 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
it's unfair to the police

It is unfair to the police if a media circus is made of their trial, guilty or not.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
Which it would be if they didn't play the same game when it suits them.

Please, don't group every individuals under one umbrella. You don't know these cops, if they used the media to their favor or not, or if they're even guilty as of yet (and again, I'll admit, they probably are.) I see an American Flag by your profile, it would be just as unfair to call you an Iraqi-murder just for being American since our government invaded Iraq.

I've worked with many cops. I've seen some douchebags, I'll be blunt on that, but most (95%+) of them are nice guys and gals and don't deserve the ridicule many give them. I obviously have a pro-cop background but I try to be (and think I have been) pretty fair and balanced in my police discussions.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
felony murder

Not sure about that, and I know (based on your previous posts) that you are an avid supporter for justice. I believe getting the quanta of proof that the bystanding police premeditated or thought the guy would die or even know what was going on would be a high burden to prove. I think manslaughter would be more appropriate, but I'm not on the jury, don't know the facts, so my opinion is a bad as the rest. (I realize my last paragraph can be nit-picked and all, I'm just trying to convey an overall point not really prove anything)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9368 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1109 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
watching the cop beating this poor fellow for 10 seconds and then stepping in would clear them, but having them watch until the guy was dead would be IMHO felony murder.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):

Not sure about that, an

you have to quote my whole sentence which clearly is hypothetical. The video was posted here and many, watched it, so did I. Many by-standers begged the cops to stop it, IIRC, they did not. The 5 others could have stopped him. They did not.

The police union will likely pay for the defense, they have money, the DA will likely be on the side of the cop and the judge has to do what the jury decides.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 Mir : It's unfair to ANYONE when a media circus is made of their trial, guilty or not. But I can't feel too bad about a group that plays with fire getting
26 DeltaMD90 : Yes, including cops. Well, I guess that's all I need to hear. Hard to feel sorry for the Kent State protesters getting shot too, they were playing wi
27 Mir : Throwing rocks at people with with guns is never a good idea. I do feel bad for those who didn't throw rocks but were caught up in the whole thing. O
28 DeltaMD90 : Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. Seeing cops being given an unfair trial as a form of irony or poetic justice... that's just a sick thought
29 Mir : I have never advocated an unfair trial. I do find it a bit ironic that some would take issue with the use of the media against defendants who happen
30 DeltaMD90 : Ah, gotcha. Well, I guess I come across as a police fan boy (I probably am) but that doesn't mean I don't take issue to what they may do.
31 itsjustme : One thing that does chap my ass is the fact that the officers are still on PAID leave. One guy is out on bail and the other is sitting in a jail cell
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