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Up To 20,000 Antiaircraft Missiles Stolen In Libya  
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2665 times:

Partly due to the Presidents, and the Europeans choice not to put boots on the ground to at least secure weapons storage facilities, up to 20,000 anti-aircraft missiles may be missing and unaccounted for in Libya.    Just pretend they don't exist Mr. President.

http://news.yahoo.com/free-20-000-an...ssiles-stolen-libya-190419158.html

A survey of weapon depots in Libya shows that up to 20,000 shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles are now missing, partly because President Barack Obama has refused to send troops to guard the weapons depots, according to a left-of-center advocate.

Despite the growing concern among officials in the U.S and Europe, he said, “you can still walk into any facility without anyone stopping you.”


57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2640 times:

Aren't the same groups now bashing the president about not putting boots on the ground the same ones that didn't want the president to do anything in Libya at all? Can't have it both ways...

Edit: not accusing the OP or anyone, just asking...

[Edited 2011-09-28 16:38:29]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Partly due to the Presidents, and the Europeans choice not to put boots on the ground to at least secure weapons storage facilities, up to 20,000 anti-aircraft missiles may be missing and unaccounted for in Libya. Just pretend they don't exist Mr. President.

As much of a pinhead Obama is, you can't really lay this at his feet. As we saw in Iraq, even he had put a dozen divisions on the ground, some of those weapons would have ended up in the wrong hands. It's the nature of that kind of conflict.

That said, now we are going to have to deal with the possibility of some of those missiles finding their way to the edge of some civilian airport. Fun...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Partly due to the Presidents, and the Europeans choice not to put boots on the ground to at least secure weapons storage facilities, up to 20,000 anti-aircraft missiles may be missing and unaccounted for in Libya. Just pretend they don't exist Mr. President.


First of all there were "boots on the ground".
Do you think we just flew attack aircraft over Libya at 3,000 plus feet above the ground and could determine which bunch of Libyan's to drop ordnance on and where.

Okie


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

I have a hard time believing they actually had 20-freaking-thousand of these things. I don't even thing the US has that many Patriot missiles. 2k? Maybe. 200? Very likely. But twenty-freaking-thousand, in Lybia? Call me naive but I'm not buying it.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
Patriot missiles.

I believe they are Stinger or a similar type missile



Wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities if they are that small... probably makes them more dangerous in the hands of a terrorist (more portable/hidable)


But I agree, 20,000 of these

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2011/03/patriot_02.jpg

(Patriot missile) is kinda a lot



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
Call me naive but I'm not buying it.

Well Im not sure either, but apparently your Secretary of State was. She called directly, to the new leaders, way back before this article was published, so that would make it some time early September for the army, to "secure" all the ousted regimes weapons and reserves.

Appears they didn't, or were to late.

Also, seems as though he (Daffie Duck) had perhaps more than just bullets and bombs etc...

Read below


http://news.yahoo.com/missing-weapon...-caches-raise-fears-210959855.html



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

One neat idea would be to cut or at least curb arms sales. Wonder why that has not happened. Or indeed, sales of other nasties such as land mines and cluster bombs.

The fuss seems to be more about the possible use of the missiles (against us!) than the general danger resulting from more armaments being in circulation. I mean nobody is going to put landmines down streets in NY are they, so what if the Libyan desert has a few more to go with those from WWII.  Wow!


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10898 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
The fuss seems to be more about the possible use of the missiles (against us!)

Why do the US and NATO attack sovereign nations in first place, the US president does not even ask for Congress approval anymore before he launches these attacks.

This neo-colonialist behaviour is sick especially when there is so much bad going in the West, nations can't even deal with their own debt and are threatened of default/bankruptcy - not counting how many civilians are being killed.

Who they have put in power in lieu of Khadaffy is not even clear. We don't really know if these people are part of al Qaeda or Muslim Brotherhood or what else.

and then this is what these people tell you:

Libya's interim leadership has rejected the idea of deploying any kind of international military force, the UN envoy to the country has said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14726292

NATO/the US have to accept the consequences for their actions.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
One neat idea would be to cut or at least curb arms sales. Wonder why that has not happened. Or indeed, sales of other nasties such as land mines and cluster bombs.

Ask the Russians. Ask China. Both those countries specialized in very cheap weapons for exports, like RPGs, AKs, and the Strela 2 (Russian version of the Stinger).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
One neat idea would be to cut or at least curb arms sales. Wonder why that has not happened. Or indeed, sales of other nasties such as land mines and cluster bombs.

Ask the Russians. Ask China. Both those countries specialized in very cheap weapons for exports, like RPGs, AKs, and the Strela 2 (Russian version of the Stinger).

Which is no adequate reason to make it the competition that it is - no?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):

Which is no adequate reason to make it the competition that it is - no?

Like I said, ask them. The Russians saw it as a means of destabilizing the west, and after the USSR fell apart, they just needed the money. For China, it's probably a mix of those same two reasons.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Like I said, ask them. The Russians saw it as a means of destabilizing the west, and after the USSR fell apart, they just needed the money. For China, it's probably a mix of those same two reasons.

If you look at the cost of the GWOT to western countries, where most of the arms being guarded against come from those sources, it starts to look like a good strategy from the Russian point of view - always assuming that you are correct. As it also keeps biting the Russians in Chechnya I rather doubt it is that intentional, but then again, apparently the US did not expect the blowback from Afghanistan Mark I. Or do you think the Chechnyans are being armed by the US? After all you did arm the Mujahideen first time around.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
As much of a pinhead Obama is, you can't really lay this at his feet. As we saw in Iraq, even he had put a dozen divisions on the ground, some of those weapons would have ended up in the wrong hands. It's the nature of that kind of conflict.

As the article states:

I was in Iraq in 2003 and the amount of weaponry floating around in Libya is much greater than the anything we saw in Iraq,“ said Bouckaert.

and one of the big reasons why was our swift victory over Hussiens forces and while we failed to secure museums and such, weapons depots were secured relatively quickly. No one has really been in charge in Libya for quite some time now relatively speaking and this is the result of that. If we are going to back one side or the other with military power, we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves from this kind of situation.

Quoting okie (Reply 3):
First of all there were "boots on the ground".

Really, care to share the link that backs that up? Because all I can find is:

http://www.businessinsider.com/penta...s-troops-on-ground-in-libya-2011-9

Pentagon spokesman Capt. John Kirby told the news network that four unidentified service members are on the ground and working under the State Department to assist in the rebuilding of the American embassy there.

and I don't think 4 would have been enough.

Quoting okie (Reply 3):
Do you think we just flew attack aircraft over Libya at 3,000 plus feet above the ground and could determine which bunch of Libyan's to drop ordnance on and where.

No, as the above link also states:

American officials have previously acknowledged the presence of some CIA agents on the ground in Libya who were reportedly helping coordinate NATO air strikes.

which is exactly what we did in Afghanistan prior to inserting Airborne Rangers and Spec Ops troops on the ground.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
I have a hard time believing they actually had 20-freaking-thousand of these things.

Russian arms are notoriously cheap and when you are pumping oil, all is possible.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
One neat idea would be to cut or at least curb arms sales.

Yes it would be. I don't think the United States has sold arms to Libya for quite some time, do you?


User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6104 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2322 times:
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This is the kind of stuff that happens when some people see the populist uprisings in the middle east, and anywhere else, as people just wanting their freedom. While some people were proclaiming how wonderful it was to get rid of the Libyan dictator the bad guys were looting the armories. Whether it was terrorists, criminals, or just some standard looters who stole stuff to hold on to or resell, you have a lot of potential problems.

I have no doubt that there was 20,000 shoulder fired missiles there. I was hearing a figure around 30,000 a couple of months ago. 20,000 really isn't that big of a number, considering the number that were probably made. I am amazed at the WWII surplus weapons that are have been put on the market in the last ten years, particularly the ones from the former USSR.

I know there were weapons stolen from the East German government when it collapsed. I was recently offered a few, but I didn't want to try to get them back into the USA. I didn't want to risk losing my FFL over something like that. However it was tempting.... Fortunately when the East German state fell apart a stable and free government took over, but in a place like Libya you never know what you will get.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 13):
As the article states:

I was in Iraq in 2003 and the amount of weaponry floating around in Libya is much greater than the anything we saw in Iraq,“ said Bouckaert.

and one of the big reasons why was our swift victory over Hussiens forces and while we failed to secure museums and such, weapons depots were secured relatively quickly. No one has really been in charge in Libya for quite some time now relatively speaking and this is the result of that. If we are going to back one side or the other with military power, we owe it to ourselves to protect ourselves from this kind of situation.

Really??? That is indeed shocking cos here is what the Pentagon thought about Iraq.

According to the Pentagon, 250,000 short tons (230,000 t) (of 650,000 short tons (590,000 t) total) of ordnance was looted, providing a significant source of ammunition for the Iraqi insurgency.

Wiki.

Luckily there will not be an insurgency in Libya I don't suppose.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
While some people were proclaiming how wonderful it was to get rid of the Libyan dictator the bad guys were looting the armories.

I am not sure (and I mean that literally) whether you are merely pointing out the hazards in any popular uprising, be it the in Libya, the Philippines or going back a few centuries the 13 colonies. But if not, are you suggesting that the Libyans should merely have put up with the dictator?

Yes, in any revolutionary period there are risks that undesirable elements will seek to profit from the general instability. It was ever so. But democracy would never have come about in the western world without the real struggles that took place, struggles that were far from peaceful and far from pure. Does that mean that people should simply put up with their lot for fear that someone in another country might be frightened by the outcome?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 8):
We don't really know if these people are part of al Qaeda or Muslim Brotherhood or what else.

I am not sure why the NTC's statement that the UN need not station troops should be viewed with suspicion. So far many of the prominent people involved have indicated that they are neither one nor the other. Indeed, some are actually former Gaddafi staffers. The fact that they survived this long would suggest that they are not al Qaeda. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, maybe, although I hope (an insipid word, I admit) that things will improve.

Madame, the son of a close personal friend of mine has died in this conflict and I really pray that I am wrong, but given the choice between living under a dictatorship or aspiring for freedom, despite the risks, what choice is there? Continue as you were and if you step out of line you are tortured, imprisoned, shot? Or at least try for freedom? Nothing in life is guaranteed except failure if you do not at least try.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
I have a hard time believing they actually had 20-freaking-thousand of these things.

Completely believable, I wouldn't be surprised if they had more.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
The fuss seems to be more about the possible use of the missiles (against us!) than the general danger resulting from more armaments being in circulation.

Shortly following the fall of the Soviet Union the former Soviet Republics had literally armories full of weaponry dating back to World War 1. The Soviets simply never threw a gun away in order to arm militias when the evil western powers attacked. These republics not having a lot of money, many of the semi automatic and bolt-action rifles in those armories were sold and imported to the US and other countries. I even own a few.

Had you or I walked around those same armories I'm sure there would have been mines, mortars, RPGs, anti-aircraft missiles by the thousands if not tens or hundreds of thousands. Although I'm sure some of them made it into the hands of people we don't want to have them, I think we're lucky they didn't get looted like the Libyan armories did.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Ask the Russians. Ask China. Both those countries specialized in very cheap weapons for exports, like RPGs, AKs, and the Strela 2 (Russian version of the Stinger).

There's a reason the most widely used weapon in the world is the AK 47 and can be bought in Africa for $30.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 17):
There's a reason the most widely used weapon in the world is the AK 47 and can be bought in Africa for $30.

Hell, they use them as childrens' presents in some places:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...-best-somali-students-2882643.html

How well do you know the Koran? Hand grenades and AK-47s for best Somali students



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
How well do you know the Koran?

How well do you know the bible?

There are dozens of passages in the Bible where God (or whoever) incites his followers of the day to take up arms to smite various enemies. Those enemies were not always people who weren't of the original chosen few, but sometimes involved those who were but fell out with one or another faction. Curiously enough, in some instances, the people so incited lost the battle despite the God-given assuraces. As they say: God moves in mysterious ways.

As the world knows, the most violent religious hatred is often displayed by those who profess to be of the same faith. Europe was rent by religious disputes for several centuries and that was over and beyond the Crusaders versus Islam. In the Muslim world the same occurred. Think Catholic versus Protestant, Shia versus Sunni, etc, etc....

Today, in the West we like to pretend that we are more civilised because we no longer use religion as a justification to kill people. We still kill people but we are proud that we don't pretend to be religiously motivated - we find other justifications. Full marks to the west: we kill without discrimination. That proves that we are better! There should be no discrimination in killing. Everybody should be equally entitled to kill or be killed regardless of religion. How the world has progressed.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
Really??? That is indeed shocking cos here is what the Pentagon thought about Iraq.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-10-2..._al-qaqaa-weapons-depot-explosives

Exactly when and how the powerful explosives, known as HMX, RDX and PETN, disappeared from the depot and who might have them now has become an issue in the final days of the presidential campaign, as Democratic candidate John Kerry highlighted their disappearance as another sign that President Bush bungled the war in Iraq.

Kind of hard to shoot down an aircraft with a block of explosive versus a strella missle wouldn't you think?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
Luckily there will not be an insurgency in Libya I don't suppose.

The insurgency in Iraq probably helped use up a lot of that missing explosive. Unless an air war breaks out in Libya those missles are going to be sold on the black market. Much worse situation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 19):
There are dozens of passages in the Bible where God (or whoever) incites his followers of the day to take up arms to smite various enemies.

Find me one Church group or Sunday school that awards automatic weapons and high explosives to children, or teaches them that their highest ambition should be to die while taking as many non-Christians with him as he can.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 20):

The insurgency in Iraq probably helped use up a lot of that missing explosive. Unless an air war breaks out in Libya those missles are going to be sold on the black market. Much worse situation.

I beg to differ, given the thousands of Iraqis that the insurgency has killed. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

Did Iran get them?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...ddafi-revolt-in-libya-2885626.html

However, don't think that Libyan SAM's getting into the wrong hands is anything new, Gaddafi while in power wasn't shy about doling them out to, well anyone really.
In the 1980's the IRA got some, though they were never able to employ them usefully, the primary targets, British forces aircraft and helicopters had countermeasures fitted against the SAM-7's.

In fact, terrorist groups tried to get SAM-7's into use against airliners as far back as the 70's, (the Army were deployed around LHR from intel received from a possible Palestine centered threat as far back as 1974).

Then there was the gifting of the rather more effective Stingers to Afghans from 1986, some of whom would morph into Islamist terrorists, but I guess the OP would prefer that was forgotten given who was President at the time.

Would troops on the ground prevent this - if it has happened?
Well a truly massive store of military grade explosives was looted from a facility in Iraq in 2003, right under the noses of US troops (who were anyway under orders to keep themselves to themselves, despite clear warnings about this, including from them to their 'superiors' in Washington). These explosives WERE used by the insurgents, killing and maiming many thousands, in fact for the insurgents they were game changers.
As well as just about all other Iraq military stores (likely also including SAM's) from the suddenly disbanded institutions, again, given who was President for that screw up I doubt the OP is too happy to be reminded of that either.

Back to Libya, some reports, (not the ones out to make some juvenile US domestic political point), reckon that these weapons may have gone in the early stages of the revolt. Before even NATO involvement.

Over 40 years, Gaddafi turned his country into a vast quartermasters store, way more than his forces could ever use in all eternity.
Any serious uprising, supported by outside forces or not, always had the danger of missing weapons.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

As I have indicated in my post, in the West we have chosen to ignore those parts of the BIble that don't suit our current agenda. Now, it may be the case that you choose to ignore large parts of the Bible and that is your right and I respect your right to turn the Bible into a brand of Emmental.

I will ignore the obvious fact that the right of possesion of arms has been a constant theme in many threads on A.net. But I would equally challenge you to quote from the Quran where anybody is invited to do the things that you list. There may be plenty of idiots claiming the obligation to do these things but you may find it harder to find a passasge that explicitly states what you suggest.

Throughout history there have been bigots who have advanced particular views and claimed a God to support those views. That does not prove that the views themselves are correct. It may be that some so-called advocates of Islam argue that it is acceptable to use violence, but so do those who profess no religion at all, including the US and Australia where a religious test is prohibited by law. That is the bit that you have missed from my post: in the West we no longer pretend a religious justifiaction for killing people.We simply kill because it is expedient.


25 mffoda : 20,000 is a very large number when dealing with this type weapons system... And, there is a shelf life associated with each specific system. For exam
26 canoecarrier : That has to do with battery life to run the missile guidance system right? For the same reason we weren't all that worried about Stingers in Afghanis
27 Post contains images mffoda : Yes, to a certain extent? But it is a bit more complex... even the newer versions of said weapons have issues with their proprietary power systems (t
28 Post contains images canoecarrier : I'd heard that about them many years ago. Basically, it's not like you can go to your local Tora Bora Radio Shack and pick up the batteries that run
29 Post contains images Baroque : Has to be a most likely scenario. Also you would assume if they were any use, before NATO appeared the rebs would have acquired some to deter Gadaffi
30 Post contains images dxing : Which happened during a war and is to be expected to happen during a war. The point being that the explosives were most likely to a great extent used
31 Post contains images Lufthansa411 : The nerd in me has to point out the following: UP TO 20,000. It does not say that 20,000 Antiaircraft missiles have been confirmed stolen, just that i
32 GDB : Major Libyan state arms stores were targets, including until very recently. I note thtn from the start, many rebels were armed with FN rifles rather
33 dxing : I find it hypocritical of a President to run on a platform of "we didn't belong there and have no business using our military for regime change" and
34 Post contains links mffoda : For those of you who are interested? There is a good piece by RUSI on some lessons learned in Libya. http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/RUSIInterim
35 Baroque : Interesting article, thanks for the link. I suppose they could not resist calling S and C accidental heroes. Bit I do not like is they have a "Conclu
36 GDB : mffoda, good link, very interesting. (For those who may not know, the RUSI is a defence/security think tank/forum/library dating back 180 years, it is
37 Post contains images mffoda : You're welcome, I have been reading them years... I always find them to be fairly balanced.
38 Newark727 : I'm still not following you. Unless you're saying Libya isn't a war? At any rate the fact that we know where the Iraqi explosives are now is scarcely
39 Baroque : Nice way to phrase it! Closer to the time of discovery it would have been S**T!.
40 dxing : Then I have no idea of what point you are trying to make. The point was raised that arms had gone missing during the invasion of Iraq, the article I
41 Post contains links Baroque : Aside from Iraq was good and Libya was bad, one reason could be he is using a selective reference rather than this one: www.gao.gov/products/GAO-07-4
42 Post contains links Mortyman : http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/RUSIInterimLibyaReport.pdf
43 MD11Engineer : In many dictatorships arms and ammunition are distributed all over the country and stored in local militia headquaters, public buildings, police stati
44 Post contains links dxing : The report does not detail how western powers put boots on to secure all the weapons facilities. It makes reference to one story of how the SAS may b
45 Centre : I have one question: The NATO has flown hundreds of sorties over Libya, and we haven't heard of one single case of missiles being fired at any NATO ai
46 Newark727 : Okay, I think I get you now, it's an issue of "outside of the conflict." I still don't really agree with you, but at least I see where you're coming
47 Mortyman : You quoted a different article than the one I posted ...
48 dxing : I used a source that your link used to validate their report. I still don't see any reference to actual, verified, boots on the ground other than wha
49 Post contains links Baroque : I don't think you were obtuse at all. The majority of the looted material in Iraq was explosives, but ground fire from ballistic and guided weapons w
50 Post contains links dxing : Looks like they are beginning to turn up in Eygpt. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...t/2011/10/12/gIQA2YQufL_print.html Egyptian security officia
51 DeltaMD90 : Wow, smuggle some into US or Europe and sit outside an airport... this could get pretty bad...
52 GDB : I'm not sure there has even been any substantial AAA against NATO, either fast jets or Apache and Tiger choppers from British and French ships. In th
53 Baroque : Oh always ze difficult choices then? If those systems were near working order, there would have been reports of their use, not to mention TV pics of
54 canoecarrier : For those seeking to do no good one would think that "liberated" military weapons aren't that hard to obtain. But, remember that when the war in Serb
55 Baroque : True, but we are not really all that certain they existed in the first place let alone what was left after quite a few of them were sitting there qui
56 MD11Engineer : Actually, after an initial period, due to lack of training and target aquision radar, the anti-Ghadaffi forces used a simple, but effective tactic ag
57 canoecarrier : I'm 100% certain they existed. Libya had lots of east bloc weapons, oil money paid for it and 20K infantry carried surface to air missiles being in c
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