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US Standard Of Living, Down, Down.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/



We are going down the tubes with our middleclass standard of living. There are many to blame, most of all our leaders, business and government, as well as our consumers, who flock to foreign products. We can argue, disagree, but the proof is in the pudding as they say. 30 years of giving our jobs away., for cheap labor, to kill unions, high profits. A wonderful recipe for economic disaster. A fine cake we have baked. Click on Standard of living video.

[Edited 2011-10-20 18:49:51]

[Edited 2011-10-20 19:33:48]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
110 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5509 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

1. Tax policy hurts us- almost the highest corporate taxes in the world promotes relocation of substantial business to less-taxed places, and makes US goods less competitive;

2. Irresponsible corporate management - overpaid and under-performing, focused more on quarterly results than on long-term growth;

3. Irresponsible union leadership, focused on maintaining their position of power, rather than the long-term best interests of the rank and file (interesting parallels to be drawn between poor corporate governance, poor union governance and gosh-awful legislative leadership in DC);

4. Excessive regulatory burdens, causing US manufacturers to operate under crushing loads of rules, regs and bureaucratic inefficiencies. The overseas competition (China, in particular) do not have these issues to deal with - and yet, their products are allowed to reach our shelve on an equal footing with those of the US manufacturers.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25199 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
as well as our consumers, who flock to foreign products.

I'm sorry you can't blame consumers.

If foreign companies can make stuff better or more price competitive its only natural the consumer will go for the better choice.

Expecting someone to over pay, or settle for an inferior product when they don't need to is ridiculous.

I don't even believe you will needlessly over pay day in, day out and get stuck with inferior stuff just for the sake of waving a flag.


You want someone to blame look at the reasons behind why our companies have not been able to produce the best or most competitive stuff.
Probably goes back to things like high labor cost, inefficient operations, difficult regulatory environment, high taxes etc.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2981 times:
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Stop complaining. The US has been on the top of the heap for half a century, there's no way you can maintain that position forever. A leveling of standards of living around the world is a good thing. You can't continue to consume resources at a per capita rate far beyond the rest of the world.


Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

I thank you for your replies, your knowledge, your wisdom. I provided a link, that says what the thread title is. I did not ask, for excuses, accusations. I provided information showing what is happening, nothing more, nothing less. You may like it, I do not. You maybe satisfied, I am not. You may be enjoying it, I am not. Simple as that.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5509 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
I provided information showing what is happening, nothing more, nothing less. You may like it, I do not. You maybe satisfied, I am not. You may be enjoying it, I am not. Simple as that.

I could not agree more strongly. What do we tell our children?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 5):
I could not agree more strongly. What do we tell our children

Exactly, in my case, my Grandchildren. Sad and tragic. Mis-management all around, as you said earlier. We see it getting worse, and everyone in Washington saying, Not me, it was you.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8135 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

One of the easiest ways to stop worrying about it is to leave. That's what I and many others have done. Not everyone can, and there are certainly trade-offs anywhere, but it is supremely nice not to be burdened with that kind of feeling, I can say that much. As an expat, one has the luxury of remembering mostly the good things about where they grew up while representing the red, white, and blue overseas as best we can.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2738 times:
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Quoting sccutler (Reply 1):
Tax policy hurts us- almost the highest corporate taxes in the world promotes relocation of substantial business to less-taxed places, and makes US goods less competitive;

Not to worry. The IRS is doing a wonderful job chasing down everyone who used to be an American, was born to Americans, had a green card at one time, or has some other tenuous connection to the US and is therefore considered by the IRS to be a "US person." They're stealing money like it's going out of style. Have a read of this:

The coming Canada-U.S. tax war

On Dec. 16, 1773, Samuel Adams and his group of patriots, the Sons of Liberty, swept aboard a cargo ship filled with 45 tons of East India Company tea, which they promptly dumped into Boston Harbor. The Americans were rebelling against a three-pence tea tax imposed by the then-ruling British government. Like a Canuck version of Sam Adams, federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty recently took the highly unusual step of upbraiding his American counterparts in a public letter for the “far-reaching extraterritorial implications” of their onerous tax laws that apply to Canadian taxpayers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...-canada-us-tax-war/article2198931/

Be sure to read the comments section so you can see the kinds of "tax cheats" the IRS wants to destroy. There's about a million of them.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32737 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

High corporate taxes, minimum wage laws, unions and EPA regulation took jobs overseas, not consumer habits. Eliminate those things, and jobs come back.

America is still a huge producer of consumer goods for worldwide consumption, but the factories are increasingly being located in growth-friendly states in the South.



a.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8492 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):

High corporate taxes, minimum wage laws, unions and EPA regulation took jobs overseas, not consumer habits. Eliminate those things, and jobs come back.

I'd say our #1 and #2 problems are the Chinese yuan and the federal deficit, which is something that endangers all jobs in the US. Taxes are important but not as much as those factors IMO.


User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
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Yes it's down from an all time high, but it' also been lowered in almost every other rich country. When you account for underreporting in the Census, inflation adjusted median HH income is down about 5% from all time high (2007), unchanged since 2000, and higher for years prior. Save for some few exception like Norway and Australia, inflation adjusted median HH income has not fared much better, and infact has done worse in places like Italy, Belgium, and UK between 2004-2010. Not saying we should be happy, but perspective is everything, especially when most of the world continues to be dirt poor.

User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2601 times:
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Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
You can't continue to consume resources at a per capita rate far beyond the rest of the world.

Bu even today, it continues to do so. And 50 years from now, I am sure that on a per capita basis, consumption per capita will be much higher than the avg of the rest of the world.


User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
One of the easiest ways to stop worrying about it is to leave.

You mean Japan which is a country that hasn't seen real income gains since the 1980s? A country that was about to overtake the US and is now 1/4 its size.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
High corporate taxes, minimum wage laws, unions and EPA regulation took jobs overseas, not consumer habits. Eliminate those things, and jobs come back.




Yawn! Where have we heard this bull before?







[quote=zhiao,reply=11]Not saying we should be happy, but perspective is everything, especially when most of the world continues to be dirt poor.

I have to agree, we are still surviving, but the trend is bad, more and more people are strugglling, while we know who, accumulates wealth at fantastic rates. I just read the Forbes 400 list, I did not add it up, but those 400 people were worth a bunch of money.


http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
as well as our consumers, who flock to foreign products.

How dare consumers make rational decisions and make capitalism work! What an outrage!

How about you go tell some Americans who work hard to earn a middle class paycheck and shop at Walmart that they have to pay more for the same products because their choices aren't American enough for you.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 1):
1. Tax policy hurts us- almost the highest corporate taxes in the world promotes relocation of substantial business to less-taxed places, and makes US goods less competitive;

  

Quoting sccutler (Reply 1):
2. Irresponsible corporate management - overpaid and under-performing, focused more on quarterly results than on long-term growth;

Not a governmental issue.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 5):
What do we tell our children?

Put down the Xbox and study like Chinese and Indian kids?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 8):
Not to worry. The IRS is doing a wonderful job chasing down everyone who used to be an American, was born to Americans, had a green card at one time, or has some other tenuous connection to the US and is therefore considered by the IRS to be a "US person." They're stealing money like it's going out of style. Have a read of this:

That is just awful. I hate that the IRS tries to go after taxes from Americans who are not in the country, do not earn income in the country and may pay taxes in other countries. In my opinion it is the second dumbest tax law we have.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):

One of the easiest ways to stop worrying about it is to leave. That's what I and many others have done.

Really not that bad of an idea, and those people need to take their money with them. The Cayman Islands are nice this time of year.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
I just read the Forbes 400 list, I did not add it up, but those 400 people were worth a bunch of money.

But as of 2010 less than in 2007. You can't say the recession doesn't hurt everybody.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2540 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
I have to agree, we are still surviving, but the trend is bad, more and more people are strugglling, while we know who, accumulates wealth at fantastic rates. I just read the Forbes 400 list, I did not add it up, but those 400 people were worth a bunch of money.

Understatement of the year. Go to Papua New Guinea like I did and you will see what "surviving" is. Or just go south of the border, but of course that's much better than much of Africa and SE Asia.

You Americans have no idea what "surviving" is. It's an insult that people living in air conditioned dwellings, with tv, welfare, clean water, gadgets, etc., can possibily call their situation as "surviving." But of course, this is what happens when things go sour in a country that's been rich so long.

[Edited 2011-10-22 19:42:38]

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
How dare consumers make rational decisions and make capitalism work! What an outrage!

How about you go tell some Americans who work hard to earn a middle class paycheck and shop at Walmart that they have to pay more for the same products because their choices aren't American enough for you.

Ah! The old saying " the proof is in the pudding" I think the number one national problem, is lack of jobs. That is the pudding created by sending our jobs overseas. I think the so called intelligent consumer who shops at Walmart, and now finds themselves out of a job, has nobody to blame, but themselves. As usual, Yawn!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
But as of 2010 less than in 2007. You can't say the recession doesn't hurt everybody.

Oh my, the hardships those 400 have endured. I feels so sad for them. I am sure the recession has just about stopped them from spending. The uncertainty you know. They must be careful in an uncertain economy.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 16):
You Americans have no idea what "surviving" is. It's an insult that people living in air conditioned dwellings, with tv, welfare, clean water, gadgets, etc., can possibily call their situation as "surviving." But of course, this is what happens when things go sour in a country that's been rich so long.

Trust me, at one time, we sure did struggle to survive. We had rich and poor. Unions came, we prospered, we are now losing ground. I know that I am not content to continue to watch it go down. It is our own fault, stupidity, greed, crooked politicians, crooked corporations, and yes crooked unions. The unions, and corporations are mere children compared to the members of congress, who are bought and paid for, and are experts in extorting money from Special Interests.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
The US has been on the top of the heap for half a century, there's no way you can maintain that position forever. A leveling of standards of living around the world is a good thing.

Well, it would be a good thing if the rest of the world would be catching up. Going the opposite way is a problem.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

If foreign companies can make stuff better or more price competitive its only natural the consumer will go for the better choice.

It would be OK, if the conditions for the domestic and foreign manufacturer would be the same.n For instance, if the yuan would be a free floating currency...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Probably goes back to things like high labor cost

Why is that a problem? People, when will you finally understand that without dispersing enough money among the population, equals paying the employees reasonable wages our consumption based economy will collapse?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
High corporate taxes,

Yes, that's a problem,

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
minimum wage laws,

Actually, those should improve the situation, since every employee is someone's customer too. It just sends back more money to circulation.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
unions

While the unions are very often just parasites, more money in the employee's hand mean more business for many people

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
EPA regulation took jobs overseas, not consumer habits. Eliminate those things, and jobs come back.

Do we really want that?

Quoting zhiao (Reply 16):
You Americans have no idea what "surviving" is.

So, you fly the American flag and still write "you Americans"...interesting

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Put down the Xbox and study like Chinese and Indian kids?

How will that help? There are currently many high-tech jobs outsourced. Especially in the IT you don't have to be sitting in the same office as the your colleagues to do the job. Or in the same country. Or same continent. So you spend hundred grand on your education and the job will still go overseas...


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
I think the so called intelligent consumer who shops at Walmart, and now finds themselves out of a job, has nobody to blame, but themselves. As usual, Yawn!

Okay, then why all the hand wringing over the economy? The truth is that it's just economics, and it isn't always friendly, but that's how it works. Protectionism and increased government interference isn't the answer.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
There are currently many high-tech jobs outsourced. Especially in the IT you don't have to be sitting in the same office as the your colleagues to do the job.

Sure because even that is becoming old hat now, just like screwing together appliances. The future is at the cutting edge and in innovation.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32737 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2407 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
Actually, those should improve the situation, since every employee is someone's customer too. It just sends back more money to circulation.

Minimum wage laws don't improve a single damn thing. They Kills jobs. You can't tell a company how much it's employee is worth to it. If a company sees the productivity of an employee to be less than minimum wage, the employee won't be hired and, in the case of a manufacturing job, for example, the job will be outsourced. Millions of Americans would kill for a job at $5/hr, but the government denies them that chance, because it has arbitrarily set a minimum worth for citizens. If they can't meet that worth, they remain unemployed.



a.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25199 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
It would be OK, if the conditions for the domestic and foreign manufacturer would be the same.n For instance, if the yuan would be a free floating currency...

The world will never have the same ground conditions, hence why its of primary importance for business and employees to be as cost competitive as possible regardless of what nation they are in.

Work will naturally flow to those that can produce or provide a service most cost efficiently.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
Why is that a problem?

Are you kidding?

High labor cost will only to serve to further handicap to producers of products and services, resulting in ever reduced sales. It wont matter at the end that the employees are getting more money, as the company wont be left to pay them if it cannot remain competitive.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
Actually, those should improve the situation,

Again, minimum wage laws essentially are inflationary, and inflate the price of the end product or service as it cost more for companies to produce - which can make the US product even less competitive.

Thankfully we have exceptions to the minimum wage laws in several industries such as restaurants, farms etc.

At this point I would advocate broadening those exemptions, reducing the published wage, or eliminate it completely.

I'm sorry but some jobs are not worth the statutory minimums. And to be understand what those minimums are I'm not just speaking of the Federal or State minimum wage, but we have a plethora of local laws - for example here in Los Angeles if you are doing business with the City (ie provide service or tenant at the airport) you must pay at least $10.42 for employees with medical benefits and $14.97 for those without.

I'm sorry but many jobs are simply not worth $10.42 let alone $14.97/hr.

Let market dynamics decide on wages, not artificial government laws.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Protectionism and increased government interference isn't the answer.

   All protectionism does is to skew natural market forces and let the inefficient hide behind a government wall.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 21):
You can't tell a company how much it's employee is worth to it.

No you can't. Minimum wage doesn't tell companies how much they have to pay workers, it tells them who they can't hire for jobs under a certain pay level. I think increasing the minimum wage would be a mistake, but where it is now is okay, as long as people realize that, like all regulation, the minimum wage carries with it a real and significant cost.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
All protectionism does is to skew natural market forces and let the inefficient hide behind a government wall.

More specifically, it's a zero sum proposition. Sure more Americans might have better paying jobs, but they'll have to pay that much more for everything they buy. Or any money the government might collect in tariffs would have to go right back out in food stamps and welfare since the cost for goods (either foreign with tariffs or domestic with higher costs) will skyrocket. That's not winning.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Okay, then why all the hand wringing over the economy

The hand wringing from me is for my family, friends, state and country. Look around see the happiness, the contentment, the bginnings of civil unrest. See the divisions in society appearing, the haves and have-nots. My wife talked to our financial advisor on Friday in Providence, he said he is starting to feel unconfortable walking to work, lunch, etc. he said he feels like a target going into the bank building. Deja vu all over again, said Yogi http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-...-later-same-culprits-same-rageinto



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 Post contains images Ken777 : Maybe it is time we looked at the tariff levels that are in place, both in the US and abroad. We can adjust parts of the problem by leveling the play
26 BMI727 : Of all the arguments in favor of welfare that is the worst one of all: the extortion by the poor theory. The thought that if wealthier people do not
27 Post contains images WarRI1 : That medical care was indeed hard won by unions, no other reason. It was considered part of compensation. It can be compared to "other compensation"
28 zhiao : This recession has absolutely nothing to do with trade policy, corporate income taxes, and the allegedly high min wage. Both the right and left are wr
29 WarRI1 : Well, we on the "left" do tend to over-react to the ridiculous demands of the "right". We will be going barefoot, bare assed again. I would suggest y
30 Post contains links Arrow : It's much more complex than that, and affects people who have believed for many years -- decades - that they had lost their US citizenship when they
31 Post contains links LAXintl : Funny the examples you picked. McDonalds it field testing self order kiosk (ala the airport, supermarkets). There is not much need to have someone be
32 zhiao : Sorry, but machines would have replaced such employees long ago. Supermarkets have had self checkout for over a decade with it not catching fire. The
33 474218 : The two major political parties in the United States have directly opposite theories about the "standard of living". One party thinks everyone should
34 LAXintl : I see them in growing number of stores. Every few months it seems either the self service section is growing in size and more stores have converted.
35 WarRI1 : Most certainly, in fact the forecast is that many stores will drop auto check out when their system needs upgrades. They had to assign a monitor ther
36 Post contains links PSA53 : You might find this article disturbing and a insight to the future.I just saw this on Yahoo/Sun. http://www.sbsun.com/rss/ci_19176449?source=rss And i
37 N867DA : It seems that the American consumer values price over all other things. So manufacturing has left our shores. As more and more high paying skilled job
38 Ken777 : It sure isn't dead for a lot of countries. Start looking around in Asia - China first. While free trade is a myth we can improve on fair trade. LOL!
39 BMI727 : But it won't help. Protectionism and isolationism isn't a solution. Where did I say anything about wanting to cut education funding? You do that and
40 windy95 : Not where I live and work. Kiosks are the way of the future. Made in China.... More of your laughable sound bites...
41 Ken777 : Neither is the current situation. At a minimum we need to mirror the challenges US producers face. Basically you are saying that we need to subsidize
42 BMI727 : No it isn't. The solution is to break down barriers and make the US an attractive destination for doing business. If the government plows the field,
43 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ault_on_the_unskilled_and_the.html Interesting view of trade practices in our trading partners countries. I agr
44 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/billionaires-home-buying-binge.html Quite obviously his standard of living is not going down. What did one of our re
45 BMI727 : The open market must be allowed to work. Yes it's bad that the Chinese don't let their currency float freely and we can put pressure on them to chang
46 WarRI1 : Yahoo article??? A problem with their article? Him buying a house does not bother me at all. Quite obviously he can afford it. Once again, an apologi
47 zhiao : The US is one of the least taxed, least regulated rich economy in the world, if not the most.
48 BMI727 : First, I'm not. But I don't want to ever become America's piggybank. Second, even if I was, that's far, far better than being a socialist. And number
49 Post contains links zhiao : Some good news: Chinese labour costs are rising quickly and US energy production is set to expand (something most rich countries wished they had the a
50 Post contains images WarRI1 : Welcome to my world, it is sometimes very lonely on here for people who disagree with the corporate people. I am glad we have another person seeing t
51 BMI727 : Obviously the barriers need to drop even further. Or at least, become at peace with the cost such regulation brings. Just like all the parents of the
52 WarRI1 : A much used title, mostly used incorrectly on here. Do the math, they probably lost less percentage wise, than the ordinary people. Just a guess on m
53 BMI727 : Why should they? We aren't their problem.
54 zhiao : No, I think you just need to relax and realize that this is simply an extended downturn, which all financial-induced recessions are. No need to turn
55 BMI727 : I agree with that. The danger is elements that are trying to regulate their way out of this and future recessions, without regard to the cost and imp
56 wn700driver : What an incredibly one dimensional thing to say. Perhaps you are unaware of just how litigious or financially dependent life in our nation (or any in
57 zhiao : Can you give some examples?
58 zhiao : Much, much worse. Please do not compare the misery of living poor in a poor country with having to make an amended tax reurn. You are right, the conc
59 BMI727 : Cars. Over the years we've mandated that cars have to have seatbelts, catalytic converters, stability control, etc. Sure cars are safer, but they are
60 Post contains links mah4546 : Second highest corporate income taxes in the world - and that is a major job killer. We might not have little taxes on consumer goods and lower incom
61 Post contains links OA412 : In previous threads, you've mentioned your distaste for the poor, and their taking advantage of government welfare programs. 5/hr is still living bel
62 Post contains links mah4546 : Why does the truth - that Canada and much of Europe is a socialist democracy - bother liberals? Some explicitly - like Denamark with it's socialist P
63 StarAC17 : I don't!! Clean air and water affects everyone and even animals that we might eat or use for farming purposes. If you take away these regulations com
64 BMI727 : ...which is precisely why governments should not be giving bailouts. That doesn't mean the government should make laws to ensure banks never go out o
65 Ken777 : Other countries have been breaking down our barriers for generations. Sure hasn't' helped up one bit IMO. That is why I believe we need reflective po
66 StarAC17 : Fine I don't disagree with you. But the reality is that the banks in the past 10 to 20 years lobbied to repeal legislation put in place from the Grea
67 BMI727 : You can pressure other nations for more open trade, but we don't need to restrict our own free market. Protectionism just won't work. If America will
68 Arrow : The word doesn't bother us -- it's the pejorative spin that's attached to it that grates. If Canada is your example of a "socialist" country, you nee
69 Post contains images Ken777 : Maybe that is what we need to have to actually pressure other nations. And is that why they need the corporate welfare? We needs to get down to the c
70 zhiao : Oh please. Even if you were to strip all regulations on that, no car company would take out those things. And plus, saving lives is always a good thi
71 zhiao : @Mah, Do you also want to strip regulations on air safety? Afterall, that would allow the airlines and manufacturers to have lower costs and thus more
72 Aaron747 : If you're comparing to the old fashioned Japanese corporate structure of the 1980s that is true. But plenty of people are doing just fine or consumer
73 BMI727 : I'm sure the Americans who will have to pay more for basic consumer goods will appreciate that. But that's because protectionism is a zero sum propos
74 Ken777 : And the reductions in medical costs from accidents chad a direct relation to lower insurance costs. Look at the price of gas these days - supply &
75 mah4546 : And? Doesn't change the reality that Canada is a socialist democracy. The United States is a liberal majority, but is a conservative government all t
76 BMI727 : Add it up, and yeah, it will make a difference. If it didn't, why do jobs keep moving overseas? Cut the social programs and let people lie in whateve
77 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/201...oing-to-spread-across-the-country/ Another example of why our standard of living is going down. Greed by the 1%
78 zhiao : ^I think you are being simplistic. Even if you were to tax 100% of the wages of the top 1% and give it to each household, it would represent about $25
79 WarRI1 : I understand, yes I am being simplistic, nothing else is working, we need more equality, not inequality as you touched on. I am not overly concerned
80 aa757first : I've never understood the basic premise of tarrifs. I'm very uncomfortable with saying that an American deserves a job more than, say, an Indian or a
81 LAXintl : I just simply don't get this notion. Its almost a Robin Hood or Leninist economic theory - either to take from the top, and give to the bottom, or ha
82 StarAC17 : I understand your point but we need to do some saving one of the biggest problems is that governments, corporations and individuals have spent too mu
83 FlyPNS1 : Pretty soon you will. Even many white collar workers will find themselves outsourced and working for welfare wages. Except that most of us can never
84 LAXintl : Yes certainly, the bulk are not going to reach the top. However society is like a pyramid, and nothing wrong with encouraging people to endeavour to
85 Post contains images Ken777 : That is basically the "Get A Job. Or Get A Gun" mentality. And you think it's going to work? Most countries have some type of financial support for t
86 BMI727 : At which point companies will have created new jobs. People moved from farms into cities to work in factories. Then factories moved overseas and Amer
87 WarRI1 : We have heard the term inovation, ad nauseum. Would you lie to tell us where the inovation is coming from? What jobs will be created? Surely you do n
88 BMI727 : Companies and an educated, capable workforce. Powered by a sound and open financial system of course. It could be all of that. Or some jobs we can't
89 zhiao : US spends very little on retraining vs other countries. We need much more of that, and specifically retraining in technical skills. In fact, I think
90 WarRI1 : I cannot disagree, but we are spinning our wheels, remember this re-training program is about 30 years old. I remember my family getting caught up in
91 BMI727 : For the job they do, it is. Either do it cheaper, or do it better. Maybe you should go ask the Germans about that. Their industry does pretty well, a
92 WarRI1 : Yes they do, I admire them, they know how to treat people as a valuable asset. They also knew better than strip their economy as we did, and all the
93 zhiao : How about for things that are not exportable: electricians, carpeting, plumbing, and general handy work that actually makes a decent living? Making s
94 BMI727 : I don't support a policy of ruin. I support a policy of profitability. It is unfortunate that it is impossible to attain in some parts of the world o
95 Post contains images WarRI1 : No doubt, I have a plumber in my family. The problem is, you have to have a job, to go to a restuarant, call a plumber, an electrician, go anywhere,
96 Post contains images Ken777 : At some point people will look for "other ways" to make money. There is no doubt that crime goes up when unemployment goes up. Guns are one way. Pros
97 WarRI1 : I am sure you do not, unfortunately that it is the way it is going here. I have never said it was, How would I have made a living, along with million
98 Ken777 : And that is the problem we are facing. In terms of corporate profitability things are great. In terms of Americans we are, for far too many, in a Dep
99 WarRI1 : Dammned sad. I saw on the news last night that the US has the greatest income disparity of any industrialized nation. It is getting worse, and the ra
100 FlyPNS1 : But right now, our society is attacking those in the middle of the pyramid....telling them they need to work for less, pay more taxes and get fewer s
101 WarRI1 : I would also like to remind everyone of the participation of our own government in that assault on the middleclass, bought and paid for by special in
102 aa757first : I agree to an extent with your proposition that less intelligent (and I say this with no disrespect, as there are some mentally challenged people in
103 Post contains images Ken777 : Sadly many of this population would not be employed if it wasn't for the support they receive. One issue is that no matter how effective they can be
104 Post contains images wn700driver : I actually had a kid with a case of Downs in my employ for a while. With limited tasks, and enough training, he was fast as hell. I ended up losing h
105 BMI727 : What are you going to do? Ban automation? You're almost saying that progress will render employment obsolete. Obviously there is going to have to be
106 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : Of course not. However, automation has a price and over time will likely destroy more jobs than it creates. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...ac
107 StarAC17 : Nothing and most people would make more off welfare. Drop the cost of living (which has been sky-rocketing relative to wages) in the US and BMI has a
108 Post contains images 747m8te : $5 an hour is well below the poverty line, not going to encourage anyone to get off welfare which is higher. It's a safety net for employees, being p
109 Post contains images Ken777 : None. But it's corporate welfare and voters don't seem that concerned. They just keep using tax dollars to cover food stamps, medicaid, etc. At some
110 WarRI1 : I am glad that someone can see the end result of this insane policy that we follow. I certainly support, any labor revolution, here, or in China, or
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