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French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...  
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15550350

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
202 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10048 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4658 times:
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Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits.

Wait, what? Are you supporting the firebombing?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4658 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits.

"We are the Religion of Peace - and if you disagree we will kill you!"

Until people realize that no religion (or any other institution) should be declared off-limits to commentary, opinion, and sometimes ridicule (Which is the entire intent of Freedom of Speech), and that they can choose to answer it likewise through the freedom of speech or simply ignore it, but never by murder and mayhem, I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

It might not be the wisest decision, but I like your style.   



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

I don't read Charlie Hebdo nor do I necessarily support their actions. Rightly there should be limits to freedom of the press and other values should prevail, but does a strong faith, worthy of belief, feel so weak and vulnerable to any criticism ever, that violence is the instinctive repsonse? Does a strong god need his followers to kill or attack others to uphold his honour?


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Wait, what? Are you supporting the firebombing?

No but they damn well knew what could happen if they dared to depict Muhammad...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

Great idea. Lets submit the staff of newspapers and magazines to death threats and acts of violence just for the sake of making a point  



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4620 times:

If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

But like crossing a street without looking, they should not be surprised at the potential outcomes.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.
They could tell each others funny stories about their respective followers.

There is material for a good script...


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.
They could tell each others funny stories about their respective followers.

You can (and many have) make some pretty hateful cartoons of God or Jesus or Buddha or Shiva and other spiritual characters. You might get people angry, and you might get a lot of hatemail. People might boycott your newspaper. But it is highly unlikely that you will be responded to with carbombs, beheadings, or a knife in the street (Van Goegh) with the exception of one religion.

The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

If nobody would be offended, there would be no need for Freedom of Speech.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

The South Park Muhammad episode did just that. Poked fun at Jesus, Santa Claus and Muhammad. In the end they censored all that the Muhammad character said and never showed him in character form. They still got death threats.

The storyline originally had Muhammad in a bear suit the whole time. Not the caricature of Muhammad that is shown in most cartoons.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

I would draw the line at mocking Pastafarians. Nobody must must be allowed to insult the The Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!




Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15550350

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.

Get a special law to excempt Islam from satire, next thing the Christian bishops want to have the old blasphemy laws re-introduced for their religion as well.
No, catch the guy, try him for arson and possibly attempted manslaughter and throw the (French) criminal code at him.
Then, if he is not a citizen, deport him to whereever he came from.

Jan


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6818 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 5):
Does a strong god need his followers to kill or attack others to uphold his honour?

In Islam, it's mandated. That's part of their belief system as stated by their prophet. We've already covererd this real estate repeatedly here on this site.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

But like crossing a street without looking, they should not be surprised at the potential outcomes.

So you're condoning the violence essentially? You think satire is incendiary? Give me a break. If that's the case, then the good folks at The Onion ought to also fear for their lives too.

IT'S A JOKE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. And you know what I say? F 'em if they can't take a joke. And that goes for all the other thin-skinned namby pamby people in our society who cry at the first sign of anything these days. It's BS.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4519 times:

They have done the same thing with the Pope.

Charlie Hebdo is a Trotskyst publication and they love to denigrate religions. They always have, they always will. I remember the now dead Professor Choron. Things were a lot more acid when he was living and leading Charlie Hebdo.

Only that the catholics after all the insulting cartoons they published on various Popes Bishops and priests, the catholics never burned their headwuarters or attacked their journalists. Not even the most ultra-conservative groups like Bishop Williamson who was also a target of Charlie Hebdo.

Some religions accept freedom of expression more than others. You can mess with some, not with others. It will be interesting when Islam becomes the first religion in France - which is about to be. They will probably have Charlie Hebdo and other such publications shut down.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10048 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4502 times:
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Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

Why is it unfair? If someone wants to target Muhammed alone, or Jesus, or Buddha, or whoever, then let them!

Your statement is like saying, "if you want to make fun of one person, you have to make fun of all 7 billion people in the world".

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
No but they damn well knew what could happen if they dared to depict Muhammad...

Sure. But that doesn't make the reaction OK by any stretch of imagination. Basically, your opening post sounds like it's supporting the firebombers.

I damn well know that when I get in my car every morning, I could get hit by someone running a red light. Doesn't make it right.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4496 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

If nobody would be offended, there would be no need for Freedom of Speech.

      

And it applies to allowing people to make comment about and criticisms of the (elected or otherwise) government! We all know what happens when a government or any leadership body denies its people the freedom to speak their minds. It become an oppressive and false society.

Quoting slider (Reply 13):
In Islam, it's mandated. That's part of their belief system as stated by their prophet.

Just curious, was it actually mandated by Mohammed (whom I believe is "the Prophet")?

Did he instruct "You may not mock me!", or was it the zealots and religious leaders that came afterwards that made it unacceptable and un-allowable in order to bolster their power? Like I said, just curious, not denying that attacking "blasphemers" appears to be mandated/OK.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
Only that the catholics after all the insulting cartoons they published on various Popes Bishops and priests, the catholics never burned their headwuarters or attacked their journalists. Not even the most ultra-conservative groups like Bishop Williamson who was also a target of Charlie Hebdo.

That´s why I say that being scared of radical Islamists is the wrong thing. The perp needs to be caught, tried and thrown into jail.
It´s a matter of a selfdefending democracy. We have our principles, like freedom of press and speech and freedom of religion, which have been won in hundreds of years of struggle (in Europe mainly against the Christian churches, but also against aristocrats and feudalists as well as dictators). These principles are too important to let oneself being bullied by religious fanatics.
Seriously, even though I´m an atheist I´m extremely tolerant concerning other people´s religions and lifestyles, but i won´t let anybody bully me and I am willing to defend the constitution, if necessary, with weapons. I´m also quite sure that thousands of moderate Muslims living in France or Germany would defend the consdtitution as well.
I have heard enough voices from moderate Muslims concerning the current rebellions in Libya and Syria, which condem the attrocities committed by the dictators Ghaddafi and Assad, but who are also extremely suspicious of the radical islamists trying to get to power.

Jan


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
Just curious, was it actually mandated by Mohammed (whom I believe is "the Prophet")?

Did he instruct "You may not mock me!", or was it the zealots and religious leaders that came afterwards that made it unacceptable and un-allowable in order to bolster their power? Like I said, just curious, not denying that attacking "blasphemers" appears to be mandated/OK.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (59:369) - This recounts the murder of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a Jewish poet who wrote verses about Muslims that Muhammad found insulting. He asked his followers, 'Who will rid me of this man?' and several volunteered. al-Ashraf was stabbed to death while fighting for his life.

Bukhari (3:106) - "The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."

Bukhari (4:241) - Those who mocked Muhammad at Mecca were killed after he had retaken the city and asserted his authority.

From the Quran:

033.060-61
If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;

Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4469 times:

In fact Charlie Hebdo's intentions were to have Prophet Muhammad as the editor in chief of that particular issue. They declared despite of the Muslim protests that the "Mohammad" Charlie will be sold in the news stands this week anyway.


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4456 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

Religious fanatics of any colour usually claim that their rules have been written by a higher being and are therefore not to be challenged by mere mortals, and the interpretation of the scriptures by the fanatics is usually the only one they accept.

Jan


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5628 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
From the Hadith:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
From the Quran:

Well there you go... wow.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
That´s why I say that being scared of radical Islamists is the wrong thing. The perp needs to be caught, tried and thrown into jail.

Agreed. Regardless of the religion, belief or politics we shouldn't bow down to extremism in any form. We don't hear Hindus in our country telling us not to eat cows because they believe they're sacred. In fact, I can't ever remember a time where a Hindu's have ever told us not to do something they find sacred.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
Seriously, even though I´m an atheist I´m extremely tolerant concerning other people´s religions and lifestyles, but i won´t let anybody bully me and I am willing to defend the constitution, if necessary, with weapons.

I think most western countries are extremely tolerant of other people's religions and lifestyles, but there needs to be a point where if someone publishes something like a cartoon with an image of Muhammad and gets threatened an example should be made of those making the threat. And it is a threat not a charge of religious persecution.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

Why is it unfair? If someone wants to target Muhammed alone, or Jesus, or Buddha, or whoever, then let them!

Your statement is like saying, "if you want to make fun of one person, you have to make fun of all 7 billion people in the world".

Sorry that you missed the allegory of having all Gods and Prophets gathering in a cosy place with Mary and Magdalena behind the bar, and a panoramic view on the planet.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4182 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
Islam needs to learn that it is THEY whoo need to adjust and assimilate into Western culture!!

Indeed. Any time I visit an Islamic country, I am reminded of situations when I must show respect and modesty. So please, do the same when you come to our countries. Freedom of speech is important to us.

Now, I know this will probably get me flamed, but to anyone who thinks it is rational to firebomb somewhere because they depict your prophet, get the hell over yourselves and your damn religion.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 24):
Now, I know this will probably get me flamed, but to anyone who thinks it is rational to firebomb somewhere because they depict your prophet, get the hell over yourselves and your damn religion.

I still have trouble understanding why it's ok to publicly/privately behead or stone people, regardless of where you are and the predominant religion. Neither are rational.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
25 LAXintl : Any smart person on the planet understands there are consequences in actions. No one is stopping anyone from publishing such material, which many mig
26 Post contains images aloges : Stop the presses... you made me laugh! You genuinely amused me! That, I have to say, is bigger news to me than yet another pseudo-Muslim giving fodde
27 474218 : I would say "firebombs" are outside the limits. Who should set those limits? Dared to depict Muhammad? "Incendiary" in who's eyes? So trying to kill
28 stealthz : Those consequences should be, in a free and open society, discusion and perhaps vigourous discussion but firebombing and attempted murder is unaccept
29 canoecarrier : I'm fairly certain that's their desired outcome. "We don't like it, so you won't do it". I'm all for people publishing unpopular literature, if it wa
30 wn700driver : No, religion has limits. We're past that level of politeness. It's time to break out the mohammed being auto-erotically axphisiated by a jewish lesbi
31 aloges : I'm not sure that you realise how extremely disturbing that kind of generalisation is.
32 LAXintl : Potentially to millions of Muslims globally, and to many others its simply bad taste and poor choice of subject to depict. Sure, 9/11 did not happen
33 WarRI1 : There is a word that applies here. "Intimidation" Is that how we non-believers want to live? I do not.
34 MD11Engineer : I don´t know the French criminal code in detail, but I assume that arson coupled with endangering lives can be anything from attempted manslaugther
35 Springbok747 : Dude..I'm no fan of Islam (or any religion for that matter)..but this is pushing it...such a broad generalization is just nuts. Its like saying all C
36 LAXintl : Call it intimidation of you wish. However even 'free speech" has limits. In the US, the Supreme Court on multiple occasions found that speech does hav
37 Dreadnought : Case one: A cartoon showing a depiction of a certain religious leader "in congress" with a camel. Does that satisfy your condition? Should it be bann
38 WarRI1 : It is a policy of intimidation being practiced here. If you yell fire in a crowded theatre, you go to jail. You do not get burned to death, be-headed
39 stealthz : So you are saying 9/11 was OK?? That may disturb some of those whose flag you display beside your name! (it disturbs me despite the different flag!)
40 DeltaMD90 : I'm pretty sure he's calling people that firebomb/stab/murder people over this "dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, wha
41 vikkyvik : The people do, through their elected officials. I'm not sure why people are saying that free speech doesn't have limits. It sure does. Yell "fire" in
42 Dreadnought : The concept of Freedom of Speech exists, not to protect pranksters who yell 'fire' in a theater, or pornography, or the ability to curse on TV, but t
43 Post contains images StarAC17 : Unless it violated French law there is not limit of free speech issue here. I'm sure fire-bombing is illegal and shouldn't be tolerated. You might no
44 PanHAM : May be, but the French newwspaper was well within those limits. This is nothing else than the cartoon series about the pope. A religion has to accept
45 wn700driver : I have no problem generalizing people that terrorize others to get what they want. Sometimes their cause is religion, sometimes not, but the fact is
46 Post contains links and images imiakhtar : The deception continues For the benefit of other members, I'll add some context to these quotes: Ashraf was a Jewish tribal leader of Banu Nadir - A
47 vikkyvik : Concepts are well and good, but 200+ years and umpteen Supreme Court cases later, bounds have certainly been established for what would be called "fr
48 LAXintl : I'm not sure what 9/11 has to do with this, or why you keep bringing it up. But yes, there is cause and effect in the world. It appears if you take p
49 StarAC17 : He is just a moron who runs his mouth and all we can do is ignore him and do what Jesus says and "Turn the other cheek". The supreme court agreed tha
50 Post contains links Dreadnought : My mistake. I used the wrong name. Sallam ibn Abu al-Huqayq is the poet Muhammed had murdered. Salām bin Abī 'l-Huqayq (Arabic: سلام بن أب
51 PanHAM : I don't know about the French constitution, but the German constitution explicitly forbids censorship and since the constitution is the highest author
52 777way : Only the stupidest of Muslims will resort to such tactics of burning and destroying, a simple peaceful protest by just 10 people outside, or a non-thr
53 wn700driver : Indeed it is. How about dropping a few hundred kilos of high explosive on his church from a predator then? Our president obviously thought highly eno
54 DeltaMD90 : Well, Fred Phelps is annoying and offensive at most, but he isn't causing people to become suicide bombers (or whatever Anwar al Awlaki was doing, I
55 Dreadnought : While Phelps and his followers are the worst sort of a$$holes who it would give me great pleasure to punch in the face, you defined the difference yo
56 Post contains images Aesma : Since it was not mentioned yet, Charlie Hebdo was part of the "original" controversy about Muhammad caricatures. They published them a week after the
57 Post contains images n229nw : Are you for realz??! Sure, we can ban the bible. From the Bible: 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belo
58 NW747400 : This is not the same. Christians follow Christ (its in the name for crying out loud) not the old laws of the Old Testament. So if you can find somewh
59 wn700driver : There's nothing irrational against about seeing the quran as a destructive, anti-human creation. And seeing it for what is in that regard does not im
60 n229nw : Hmmm, and yet the Old Testament God is still God, and are you telling me that Christians don't use it to put the ten commandments on the lawn of cour
61 777way : . For sure.
62 Baroque : And I have yet to see the arrest warrants for Palin, Rush and all the others who advocated extreme violence against Assange. Alas, the poor precedent
63 474218 : Since Muslims are forbid from seeing images of Mohammad, how do they know Details please!
64 Post contains links Baroque : Do not quite know why this is needed. Don't you read your press? Since you insist. http://www.politicususa.com/en/palin-death-threats-assange http://
65 474218 : I didn't see anything in any of those statements that advocated extreme violence! Just people exercising their "Freedom of Speech".
66 Post contains images Baroque : Tell me you are having a lend of me. But I suspect you do not even begin to see the double standards. Well no wonder you have a law and order problem
67 474218 : What do you mean Mexican drug lord "start to advocate murdering DEA agent and US police" they have "murdered DEA agents and US police". Actions speak
68 Baroque : Any evidence that Assange committed a treasonous act? I am sure some of the Mexican drug lords THINK they have been treated unfairly. Are you saying
69 474218 : How many classified documents did he release?
70 MD11Engineer : He is not an American citizen, so he doesn´t have any committment to the US. Therefore treason does not apply. Jan
71 Post contains links Baroque : Correct, but that leads to an even more interesting matter. Prolly some of the NY Times staff are just that (American citizens), so have they been th
72 ozglobal : Then let me spell it out for you: your right wing American 'figures' listed above, in their characteristic combination of ignorance, fake patriotism
73 moltobene : You need to look further when you infer that atheism equals non-violence. What about Stalin and Hitler? Both atheists, collectively responsible for 8
74 StarAC17 : I never said it did, atheists are more than capable of doing bad things. However an atheist is not likely going to kill themselves and others for rel
75 moltobene : Lots of information about this available on the internet. Do a search if you care to know more.
76 DeltaMD90 : This isn't true, I see it a lot. But to their defense, it's usually them making a huge generalization against all religious people, nutjobs included.
77 wn700driver : Hitler was a fanatical religionist whose beliefs often vacilated between Roman Catholicism and elements of Protestant values. He was also known for s
78 DeltaMD90 : Like the homosexual religion, the communist religion, the gypsy religion? How about the people of "Jewish heritage" that were not practicing Jews tha
79 wn700driver : Sure he did. As did Eichmann, the man largely acting as the real architect behind the final solution and various other purification programs. He didn
80 DeltaMD90 : Well I never heard that, and my quick Wikipedia search doesn't confirm that, so I'd like to see a source on that. Even then, you needed to be a bunch
81 PanHAM : well, the US may want to prosecute Assange and put him behind bards for a long time, but "murder"? Then again, Assange would not be better off than t
82 ozglobal : You didn't read the quotes above from the dozens of right wing American 'figures': they want him assassinated (murdered by the state on foreign soil)
83 PanHAM : Yes, but as long as Assange is in Sweden or the UK the US won't send a predator to kill him. He should not go to Pakistan and Yemen, or Somalia. BTW,
84 ozglobal : Rightwing American nutjobs are not making this distinction and it is their public statements that are being compared to those of Islamists and Charli
85 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Fighting over religions for this and that is totally absurd, as there is no absolute proof that there is such a "thing" as God, de facto. It's all sub
86 StarAC17 : There were non-believers then, a lot of them kept quiet though. However with modern science discrediting a lot of the book of Genesis it has created
87 Baroque : Quite so, and if you suggested you did not believe, you tended to get a grilling, first in the torture chamber, and then in a BBQ!! Quite a disincent
88 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : "Christians are hypocrites, they live in the dark ages, I'm not even religious and I act better than Christians... etc." I hear it all the time. And
89 EDICHC : I did not see any generalisation in wn700driver's post. Nowhere did I see a claim that this described all Muslims. Precisely, I saw it the same way,
90 777way : Really? are you smoking something? with what logic can you say it isnt labelling all.[Edited 2011-11-08 06:41:34]
91 na : Well said. All newspapers should do so to show the notoriously intolerant muslims what freedom of speech means. If its just humour and caricature and
92 777way : But I dont understand why freedom of speech needs to involve making fun of anything religious?[Edited 2011-11-08 09:58:26]
93 dreadnought : It is critical. In any society that values freedom of choice, we must be allowed to criticize (including the use of satire and comedy - i.e. making f
94 474218 : Did you understand why Taliban destroyed the 2000 year old Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan? Was it acceptable to destroy a symbol of someone
95 DeltaMD90 : Because it's freedom of speech. As long as it isn't calling for violence, then let them say what they say. And this didn't call for violence, it was
96 StarAC17 : I never said any of that, outside of saying that I do feel that it is from religion that society in general sees being gay as a sin. I have always ha
97 DeltaMD90 : Didn't say you did, I was just saying that "atheists never claim moral superiority over anyone else" is false IMO
98 PanHAM : There is no censorship in a free and open society. In many countries, like Germany, this is guaranteed by the constitution. It includes the right to c
99 ozglobal : Islam, unlike Christianity, has not yet developed the notion of the freedom of conscience as a necessary condition for human freedom to operate. Hence
100 Baroque : You really should not write this if it is not true you know.
101 dreadnought : Please explain. Are you saying there is censorship in Germany?
102 777way : No, that was totally wrong of them, they were misguided, illeterate, emotional fanatics, not what true Muslims are taught to be. Secular west, I doub
103 Baroque : If you want to know, why not Google that very phrase?
104 na : Freedom of Speech means that you can publicly say your opinion on anything, as long as you are not insulting someone. And showing Mohammed or a funny
105 PanHAM : There is no censorship in Germany. If there is a conflict of interests with other $$$ of the constitution namely § 1 which basically says that the hu
106 Post contains images Baroque : Not exactly what Wiki thinks.
107 ronglimeng : I read recently: “A fanatical Muslim will put you on the ground and try to kill you if he thinks you have insulted Islam; a moderate Muslim will st
108 StarAC17 : Insulting someone is definitely allowed when it comes to free speech. The only acceptable constraint and it varies country by country is that hate sp
109 PanHAM : I don't care what Wiki thinks, censorship is when the state, the executive branch censors. That does not happen., Every citizen however has the right
110 Baroque : Well there is at least one topic that your laws appear to prevent even being discussed. I would call that censorship. And if you don't like Wiki on t
111 PanHAM : You mean holocaust denial? The relevant §§§ in the law are constitutional, in line with § 5 of the constitution and that is not issued by the exe
112 Baroque : By refusing opportunity to discuss you risk distorting views of history. It gets so circular that it can get difficult even to discuss arguably the wo
113 PanHAM : Well, the point is, it still is not censorship when the law is holding up to the consitution. If th supreme court had ruled that holocaust denial is i
114 na : Well said, all I heard where lame excuses of singular muslim officials, and that only when directly questioned. And, do you notice, there is not a si
115 777way : Actually we are quite fed up of explaining and clarifying so most have given up, even in my case everytime I used to post a clarification others with
116 starbuk7 : And that is the problem. Not blaming you personally, but that is where the Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc came from. They did not agree with eve
117 DeltaMD90 : It is a little harder to do this in many Muslim countries, no one can deny that. And I usually defend Muslims, but even I do question why more of the
118 474218 : Why? Didn't at least four (4) Muslim countries just over throw their governments, governments that had armies? It seems logical that if the majority
119 DeltaMD90 : Yeah, I'd argue it is harder to overthrow those governments than to elect new ones in our country. We don't have Apaches launching missiles at OWS A
120 Post contains links dreadnought : Those revolutions were not necessarily a godsend for religious liberty. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kurt-j...and-the-arab-spring_b_1080808.html
121 474218 : I wasn't using that in that context. All I am saying is, if the vast majority of the Muslim faith are really against what the radical minority are do
122 Post contains images zippyjet : As long as you got the PC weenies, the corrupt UN and Saudi big money things ain't gonna change. If you even sneeze and the fanatics thing you are di
123 na : That is a very sad thing, as it shows a picture to the world that says that the majority secretly accepts the bad things going on in the name of Alla
124 slider : This is a very good point and you're right on the money--Islam is about submission and adherence, not free will. This is EXACTLY why sharia is absolu
125 474218 : Then why are there Shia and Sunni Muslims? Sounds more like a cult than a religion?
126 DeltaMD90 : Wow... this is a very good point. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt but this is a very good argument. Interesting...
127 MD11Engineer : Actually AFAIK, the Hinduist Tamil Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam in Sri Lanka have carried out a lot of suicide bombings. Among others they killed
128 SOBHI51 : I want to share a great experience i went through the last few days. I was lucky to join millions of Muslims in the Hajj (pilgrimage). You can not bel
129 DeltaMD90 : Congrats on your journey, I am glad you had an enlightened time. While all of Islam is going through tough times right now, I still do believe most o
130 Baroque : @na. Find a Muslim and get to know them and find what they say when yet another suicide bombing occurs. As Jan says, the LTTE did their level best to
131 StarAC17 : It took 50 lives!! A Dutch film-maker was killed for his editorial on how some Muslim women were treated and an author was in hiding for years for be
132 na : I am sure that was an amazing experience no one ever forgets. An experience of being one like the Hadj exists nowhere else on this planet. While I be
133 SOBHI51 : So it is the practises and not Islam as such is to be blamed and i can strongly agree with that. As far as facing those extremists preachers, it is a
134 slider : But Islam itself DEMANDS the practice thereof as it is occurring around the world...that's the problem we've made clear ad nauseam.
135 777way : ^ There you have it, the IF's and BUT's, despite the clarifications and explanations, but there is some truth to it, Islam does have demands which we
136 wn700driver : Fringe perhaps, but you cannot say they're misled. The Koran doesn't allow for compromise. That majority may well be good people, but according to th
137 777way : There is no such thing as a good Muslim being a bad neighbour or human being, love thy neighbour is also preached in Islam, if he is good in practise
138 slider : Really? So why do we haev the problems we have today with Islam? And why has there been a trail of blood associated with a warring Islamic nation sin
139 777way : You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things.
140 slider : But you're a Muslim right? Can you explain it? Not to be overly aggressive or interrogative here, but your statement above is a copout, IMHO. You put
141 Post contains images dreadnought : I'm sorry, but that is flimsy. I could list hundreds of so-called "experts", Imams, sheiks, ayatollahs, etc who say with great authority that those w
142 DeltaMD90 : Oh come on guys, it is very hard to be the only one on your side in an argument. Obviously 777way (and SOBHI51) have proven to us that there are peace
143 stealthz : That response is more than flimsy, it is in many ways unacceptable. It was pointed out to me the other day that we in the non-muslim world... Christi
144 777way : It simply means I have no knowledge on the subject and related questions, if I did we could have had an indepth discussion here, its not a cop out, m
145 stealthz : And I guess there in lies the crux of the problem!
146 PanHAM : Granted, but the world of internet is free and open for anyone to inform him/herself. It always pays to get a second or a third opinion on an issue.
147 777way : That is true as well, Islam will go down the same path of dilution as Christianity, its clearly mentioned in the Prophet's sayings, things like mosque
148 Post contains links dreadnought : Well, secular schools do not teach that Christians are apes and Jews are pigs, and so forth. This is still taught in many countries as part of their
149 777way : I was taught in secular schools religious classes that unbelieving nations were turned into pigs and apes, wether they were Christian and Jew I dont
150 dreadnought : It sure sounds like such nonsense was part of the official curriculum, no?
151 SOBHI51 : It has been over 40 years since i finished high school so lets see how good is my memory about religion classes in Syria and Egypt. The 5 pillars of I
152 Starbuk7 : If there are millions of them out there, then why do they not speak out and condem the acts of the radicals? I can make an assertion here but i will
153 SOBHI51 : I thought we were doing that. Watch Arabic TV channels, read some magazines even watch some movies, the message is there. Does the message get to the
154 777way : No it was part of Islamic studies in general with reference to Quran no particular incidents or events were chosen to be highlighted, and dont forget
155 slider : I would offer a slight correction to that, not to get wrapped up in semantics, necessarily, but what our fellow posters have proven is not that it is
156 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Benetton following on Charlie Hebdo's footsteps PARIS The image of Benedict XVI kissing Ahmed Mohamed el-Tayeb, the Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque in Cai
157 777way : But at the same time many non-Muslims have converted to it after extensive study, including atheists and racists and intellectuals, how can they be w
158 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Of course, its gotta be west's fault who else's??? Muslims butchering fellow muslims in Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan... btw, who exactly are they "f
159 777way : Atheists converting to religion has got to mean something.
160 dreadnought : No more than the millions who convert to Christianity, Buddhism or others. Except we don't kill those who convert away from our religions. Sharia law
161 SOBHI51 : You do not want to accept that the great majority of Muslims are peace loving and that only a very small minority are the violent ones. In a matter o
162 777way : Those millions are believers to begin with, atheists do not believe there is a God let alone follow religions, for them to opt for a relatively stric
163 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Nobody i see shouting for the freedom of expression. Ah it only applies on Muslims So a picture of the Pope kissing The head of ALAzhar in Egypt offe
164 Post contains links dreadnought : If Benetton had refused to take down the ad, the worst he could have suffered is that a lot of Catholics would have refused to buy his goods - which
165 ozglobal : Then let me explain: in the 'West', in cultures shaped by christian civilization (and other religious influences apart from Islam), denigration of re
166 777way : Nightclubs and liquor shops? which religion encourages these? wrong to blow them but still if it was clothing store that was burnt down you'd have a v
167 lewis : Some will agree that this ad is tasteless and can be offensive as well. You won't see any Catholics burning down Benetton stores etc etc.
168 dreadnought : I see a problem right there. You seem to be OK with burning nightclubs and liquor stores.
169 SOBHI51 : It was clear to me long time ago, i never encouraged any violant acts, my question is why some people cry rivers defending the freedom of expression
170 SOBHI51 : Lets get one thing clear here i never encouraged or accepted any violent reaction The point is , when the Muslims objected about the famous cartoons
171 ozglobal : I don't see what is so offensive about the cartoons of the Prophet, but I respect that it is offensive to many muslims. I don't know why you need to
172 L410Turbolet : Means they are risking much less than those taking the journey in opposite direction... at least in islam. Otherwise I don't think it means more than
173 SOBHI51 : Again The image of Benedict XVI kissing Ahmed Mohamed el-Tayeb, the Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, was a little too much to stomach for some.
174 777way : NO I said it was wrong, but yes I dont approve of them as dont similar minded people from other faiths. Its called hypocricy at its best, and they kn
175 L410Turbolet : The only parallel I can see is an Italian state official getting involved in this matter, which I firmly believe he should stay completely out of. Th
176 lewis : Katrina was in the US, we started talking about an event in France and then brought in another news piece from Italy. You are comparing completely di
177 SOBHI51 : Well if i remember there was a lot of requests for stopping the publication of those cartoons it was met by the usual freedom of expression, what hap
178 stealthz : Let me reaffirm what our Czech friend is saying.. No one has a problem with those of your faith expressing their concerns over depictions of people o
179 SOBHI51 : And where did you see that i approve of such tactics? Please always have proofs when you start accusing people.
180 wn700driver : More like centuries of backward thinking and evil-minded bigotry are finally being corrected. Get used to it. Fortunately for you, there are still a
181 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Can you get this one right please, we do worship God and not Mohammad. Seems something some politicians are doing it lately In the early days of Isla
182 ozglobal : And unlike Christianity, they took to the sword in retribution and set about on a "convert or die" campaign from the earliest times. Whilst of course
183 wn700driver : Don't even get me started on that. I don't like where our current opposition party is headed. If many of them had their way, we'd look like a christi
184 SOBHI51 : After Mohammad and his followers were forced to leave Makka due to the violent treatment they were facing he went to Medina, when he got stronger he
185 stealthz : Perhaps not individually and most of your faith would respond similarly but collectively this kind of violence is tolerated if not actively condoned.
186 SOBHI51 : No it is not ok. But how come a request by the Vatican is immediately executed and nobody mentioned freedom of expression and numerous requests by th
187 ronglimeng : It seems to be impossible for a Muslim (even a moderate one) to discuss this topic without using the word "but". I just wish that any significantly-si
188 SOBHI51 : I agree on this 100% and there is no "but" here.
189 slider : Yet when anyone dares to speak ill or portray Mohammed in a manner you don't like, your people go bananas. Ah, the art of taqqiya in action... Wow. S
190 SOBHI51 : Slider you never answered this. You might be good in history but i do see you avoiding the present. OK
191 stealthz : You are quite right, and I believe it is.. Condemnation of those perpertrators whilst well founded is outside the scope of this thread. 2 wrongs do n
192 SOBHI51 : It was not me who first tried to make a connection between a religion and terrorism. My response is adequate.
193 slider : What Stealthz said. Two wrongs don't make a right. But you use it as a copout and your logic is quite tenuous since you appear to be using that as an
194 SOBHI51 : Well i told you before that i do not have an answer to you but you keep asking the same question over and over, thought ignoring it was the best solu
195 dreadnought : I don't think so, because there about 1.5 million Muslim Israelis (full citizens), many of whom want to remain part of Israel, and have no interest i
196 SOBHI51 : Wait and see on this one, now that Israel wants to become just a Jewish state.
197 474218 : Israel has been a "Jewish" state ever since it was formed. Muslims have lived in the "Jewish" state of Israel ever since it was formed. Muslims are c
198 SOBHI51 : It is not a Jewish state officially, now they want the Palestinians to recognise her as one. Imposing age limits for people praying the Friday prayer
199 stealthz : Perhaps not but If I were you I would hold that thought! Al-Aqsa mosque is on Temple Mount, one of the, if not the most sacred sites in Judaism yet t
200 SOBHI51 : Just to make one thing VERY CLEAR, my problem is not with the Jewish religion but with the politicians using or hiding behind that religion same as I
201 stealthz : Let me make it equally clear(but I won't shout) your Al-Aqsa example does not stand up because if the politicians were using or hiding behind religio
202 StarAC17 : It's mostly pandering and nothing more, at least I hope so. Even if say Rick Perry won the election next year he would not get any type of legislatio
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