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A Long Night In Ohio, For Collective Bargaining.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/in...ssue_2_early_ohio_election_re.html


The long count begins in Ohio for collective Bargaining.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

A lot of this bill I support, especially the seniority vs merit based promotions/firings. There is no reason harder working employees should get laid off before lazier ones just because of seniority! I understand you, WarRI1 are very pro-union, and I respect that, but is there anything on this list you agree with:

"
Reduces the collective bargaining power of about 360,000 public workers in Ohio. The current collective-bargaining law gives workers the right to negotiate on a broad scope of topics including wages, hours, working conditions and any provision from an expiring contract that an employer wants to change. Under SB 5, workers no longer have the right to bargain changes from a previous contract. Certain topics that have been central to negotiations, such as health care benefits, can’t be bargained anymore. Several other topics can be bargained only if management agrees. These topics, known as “management rights,” include the right to decide employee qualifications, starting and quitting times, work assignments, promotion rules and other topics.
Bans public-worker strikes.
Eliminates binding arbitration, a process allowing a third party to impose a settlement when a union and management reach an impasse, and replaces it with a process that gives a governing body, such as a city council, the final say on a union contract.
Eliminates “fair-share fees” - required payments to unions from workers who choose not to join their union. Fair share fees currently can be included in a collective-bargaining agreement as a term of employment.
Places caps on paid personal days (three), paid holidays (12) and the amount of unused sick and vacation time a worker can cash in upon retirement.
Eliminates automatic pay raises based on seniority and establishes a performance-based pay system.
Prohibits seniority from being the sole factor considered when workers are laid off.
Requires public workers to pay at least 15 percent of their health care costs and to contribute at least 10 percent of their salary toward their pension."

I'm not gonna pick it apart piece by piece, the seniority thing just really stuck out for me. What do you think (in a friendly/non-confrontational way?   )



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I'm not gonna pick it apart piece by piece, the seniority thing just really stuck out for me. What do you think (in a friendly/non-confrontational way?

As a union person, all my life, I find this strikes at the heart of a person having any economic power what so ever. You would lose all control over your well being. It is written to destroy any workers rights as we know it, and have known it for many years. It would cripple your right to try to improve your pay, and working condiditons. The collective bargaining rights process is a system of give and take.

This bill takes, give nothing. It is a blantant power grab, by management/ government, nothing else. I find nothing that I could in good conscience support. I also found that the ban on binding arbitration, the last straw. an over-reach to be sure. I hope the people speak loud and clear tonight for the over-reach of government. I find the very people who want no government influence in their lives, very hypocritical. They are trying to use that very government control to club the unions/workers with new laws. They talk out of both sides of their mouths. How was that? Not too radical on my thoughts, right?  



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Well I was mainly wondering about the seniority vs merit issue. I don't think it should be solely one or another. A 20 year veteran of a company shouldn't be able to perform much less and get away with it, and neither should a 20 year veteran be slightly out performed by a new hire and be shown the door. If I read correctly, it is basically saying that seniority is the basis of determining pretty much everything. Why should I perform that much harder if my raise will be the same as Joe Shmoe? I personally try my best, but I can see where it gets abused.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
I find the very people who want no government influence in their lives, very hypocritical. They are trying to use that very government control to club the unions/workers with new laws.

Well, technically allowing unions to exist is government intervention, with no government intervention at all, companies could pay what wages they want, fire at will, bust unions, etc, so I can see where this bill is coming from.


But to sum up...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
How was that? Not too radical on my thoughts, right?  

No you're not too radical   I just had some concerns, as I think that the best option is usually somewhere in between the two extremes



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well I was mainly wondering about the seniority vs merit issue. I don't think it should be solely one or another. A 20 year veteran of a company shouldn't be able to perform much less and get away with it, and neither should a 20 year veteran be slightly out performed by a new hire and be shown the door. If I read correctly, it is basically saying that seniority is the basis of determining pretty much everything. Why should I perform that much harder if my raise will be the same as Joe Shmoe? I personally try my best, but I can see where it gets abused.

An issue of fairness, developed to prevent racial, religious, personal, issues among workers and to prevent that from Management. One has to look back to see where this all played out, and why it is so important to unions. If you were Protestant, you were hired, if you were Catholic, you were screwed, and Vice versa. Now the pay issue, Certain jobs, certain pay scales. This also prevented those same issues, as I stated above. It prevented pay discrimination, pay jealousy, issues used by management to fracture worker solidarity. I have had family, both union, non. Management, non. Drinking buddies, golfing partners, and the loner, guess who got screwed? I go back aways, I have seen, experianced, heard form family, all those issues in my lifetime. The working world is not a nice place, unions made it livable.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well, technically allowing unions to exist is government intervention, with no government intervention at all, companies could pay what wages they want, fire at will, bust unions, etc, so I can see where this bill is coming from.

Once again, look back to the middle ages, they called them Guilds then. Formed to protect workers, artists, craftsmen. To protect. Unions, the same.




Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
No you're not too radical I just had some concerns, as I think that the best option is usually somewhere in between the two extremes

You are correct, but it is never that way, we are in the midst of extremes now, it never changes. It is never allowed by the system.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
An issue of fairness, developed to prevent racial, religious, personal, issues among workers and to prevent that from Management. One has to look back to see where this all played out, and why it is so important to unions. If you were Protestant, you were hired, if you were Catholic, you were screwed, and Vice versa. Now the pay issue, Certain jobs, certain pay scales. This also prevented those same issues, as I stated above. It prevented pay discrimination, pay jealousy, issues used by management to fracture worker solidarity. I have had family, both union, non. Management, non. Drinking buddies, golfing partners, and the loner, guess who got screwed? I go back aways, I have seen, experianced, heard form family, all those issues in my lifetime. The working world is not a nice place, unions made it livable.

I see where you are coming from, but I still think merit should appear in there somewhere. It gives incentive to work harder.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Once again, look back to the middle ages, they called them Guilds then. Formed to protect workers, artists, craftsmen. To protect. Unions, the same.

And I agree, I was just saying that saying the other side is "for more government intervention" is subjective

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):

You are correct, but it is never that way, we are in the midst of extremes now, it never changes. It is never allowed by the system.

Touche. Sadly you are right. I hope that one day the "nevers" in your quote disappear. Compromise is a very good thing. Which is why I'm against a 2 party system, but that is a wholeeee other debate.


What a nice, civil debate we're having lol. I'm surprised it hasn't digressed into trenched warfare where I'm usually in the middle getting slaughtered from both sides 



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
What a nice, civil debate we're having lol. I'm surprised it hasn't digressed into trenched warfare where I'm usually in the middle getting slaughtered from both sides

One of the things that I try to never forget, in spite of the acid, the invective, is we are all American's. It is damn hard sometimes for me. We have had it good, my fondest hope is that we can keep it that way.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1452 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-voters-re...backed-union-limits-021951331.html



There is not much that I hope for these days, this I hoped for. This is a good day for workers. There is speculation that even Republican's voted to defeat this government grab for power.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

CNN is predicting an overturn of last year's law.

//edit I was late on that due to a call. Oh well.

[Edited 2011-11-08 19:04:02]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
One of the things that I try to never forget, in spite of the acid, the invective, is we are all American's. It is damn hard sometimes for me. We have had it good, my fondest hope is that we can keep it that way.

   And we are getting through to each other. Not to toot our horns, but hello a.net, debate more like this! No low blows, circular reasoning, etc.

But surely, someone else has to have an opinion  
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
There is not much that I hope for these days, this I hoped for. This is a good day for workers. There is speculation that even Republican's voted to defeat this government grab for power.

Even though there are some parts of the bill I liked and others I didn't, I am very glad it went to the voters. I think more issues should be handled by vote, rather than having the politicians themselves do their own thing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Even though there are some parts of the bill I liked and others I didn't, I am very glad it went to the voters. I think more issues should be handled by vote, rather than having the politicians themselves do their own thing

You will notice, a singular lack of response on here on this issue, from the other side of my political leanings. I am used to it. I give you credit for responding. The usual group must be watching Dancing with the Stars. I truly support Voter Initiative. We do not have it in R.I. We can see what it means in this case. What is important, is that the people spoke, and we will all be alive tomorrow. I hope.  



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
There is not much that I hope for these days, this I hoped for. This is a good day for workers. There is speculation that even Republican's voted to defeat this government grab for power.

It's a good day for big money and big labor. The Labor industry poured in $54 million to defeat the law (vs $8 million for the pro-reform movement)

A few comments on the OP issues list - Disclaimer that I am only going on what's written - I haven't delved into them in detail.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Reduces the collective bargaining power of about 360,000 public workers in Ohio. The current collective-bargaining law gives workers the right to negotiate on a broad scope of topics including wages, hours, working conditions and any provision from an expiring contract that an employer wants to change. Under SB 5, workers no longer have the right to bargain changes from a previous contract. Certain topics that have been central to negotiations, such as health care benefits, can’t be bargained anymore. Several other topics can be bargained only if management agrees. These topics, known as “management rights,” include the right to decide employee qualifications, starting and quitting times, work assignments, promotion rules and other topics.

These rights listed as "management rights" seem self-evident. The employer should decide what job he needs to have done, when he needs to have them done, what qualifications are needed, and who among lower-level employees show the aptitude for a promotion.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Bans public-worker strikes.

I think you should have a choice. If you are to have a much higher degree of job security than the average private sector worker, then you should lose the right to strike. Or you can keep the right to strike, but no extra job security. One or the other, but not both. I think that's fair.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Eliminates binding arbitration, a process allowing a third party to impose a settlement when a union and management reach an impasse, and replaces it with a process that gives a governing body, such as a city council, the final say on a union contract.

The rules should be the same as for everyone else - a contract is extended with the same existing conditions unless a) both parties agree to replace it or change it, b) one side or another terminates the agreement, and both sides go their separate ways. No third party should have the power to impose an agreement.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Eliminates “fair-share fees” - required payments to unions from workers who choose not to join their union. Fair share fees currently can be included in a collective-bargaining agreement as a term of employment.

These “fair-share fees” sound like an abomination that should be eliminated, without question.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Places caps on paid personal days (three), paid holidays (12) and the amount of unused sick and vacation time a worker can cash in upon retirement.

I presume that this is a limit on how much you can take into retirement, not on how much vacation you can earn per year.

"Unused " sick days should never be treated as paid holidays. They are for when you are really sick.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Eliminates automatic pay raises based on seniority and establishes a performance-based pay system.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Prohibits seniority from being the sole factor considered when workers are laid off.

It sounds like seniority is currently allowed to be the sole factor. This is stupid. Seniority should never be a factor.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Requires public workers to pay at least 15 percent of their health care costs and to contribute at least 10 percent of their salary toward their pension."

Sounds perfectly reasonable.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
It's a good day for big money and big labor. The Labor industry poured in $54 million to defeat the law (vs $8 million for the pro-reform movement)

Gov. Kasich now says. "the people have spoken. I must listen". I agree, a little late for him, but better late than never.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
These rights listed as "management rights" seem self-evident. The employer should decide what job he needs to have done, when he needs to have them done, what qualifications are needed, and who among lower-level employees show the aptitude for a promotion.

To be negotiated.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
I think you should have a choice. If you are to have a much higher degree of job security than the average private sector worker, then you should lose the right to strike. Or you can keep the right to strike, but no extra job security. One or the other, but not both. I think that's fair

To be negotiated

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
The rules should be the same as for everyone else - a contract is extended with the same existing conditions unless a) both parties agree to replace it or change it, b) one side or another terminates the agreement, and both sides go their separate ways. No third party should have the power to impose an agreement.

Binding Arbitration, is a negotiable issue also. We had it. It woked for us. We took some, we lost some.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
These “fair-share fees” sound like an abomination that should be eliminated, without question.

Right to work, open shop, Nah!

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
I presume that this is a limit on how much you can take into retirement, not on how much vacation you can earn per year.

There should be a limit on saving vacation time towards retirement. Take your vacation, it is part of your benefits while you work. It should not be saved. It should be used.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
Makes perfect sense to me.

It does not to me. I do not support longevity pay. I do support union negotiated pay raises for all according to contract language negotiated by the company/government and union



.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
It sounds like seniority is currently allowed to be the sole factor. This is stupid. Seniority should never be a factor.

The most sacred of all, senority, first in, last out. It does stop many evils perpertrated in the past. You are black, Catholic, Jewish, out you go. No, No.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 11):
Sounds perfectly reasonable.

If economic times times are tough, so they should. A negotiated issue, contract language.


I am glad that another guy on the Right has joined the fray. Very slow on here tonight. I was worried about the missing folks.

[Edited 2011-11-08 20:36:23]

[Edited 2011-11-08 20:38:44]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8575 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

Of course, all the union pay & penefits will be accounted on an annual basis, using actuarial tables, right? LOL, cry, sniff. The deception will go on. Meanwhile, a good number of people are unemployed -- no job -- go figure. People be crazy.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
The deception will go on. Meanwhile, a good number of people are unemployed -- no job -- go figure. People be crazy.

The government is by nature deceptive. Are the un-employed so because of state unions? People are crazy, and it seems according to this vote, a little wiser. I applaud them. I wanted to add, good old Rush Limburger said the People of Ohio want to be raped, I did not know you could rape yourself.  Smile

[Edited 2011-11-08 20:51:11]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8305 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
The usual group must be watching Dancing with the Stars.

LOL!

And Guilty!

It's one of the shows that She WHo Must Be Obeyed and I watch twice a week. It gets interesting at times, especially with the athletic talent of some of the professionals.

TOnight we watched together as I put 60 feet of insulation on 3/4th inch Pex, getting ready to install a recirculation pump on the for new hot water heater.   

BTW, Nancy Grace departed tonight.

And the Unions won in Ohio.

Two wins for the night.  


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
It's one of the shows that She WHo Must Be Obeyed and I watch twice a week. It gets interesting at times, especially with the athletic talent of some of the professionals.

I was listening to the TV. I can say that I do appreciate the talents of the Professionals myself, I do not say that to my wife, just my Brother. I guess it is all according to what talent we are talking about.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
BTW, Nancy Grace departed tonight.



And the Unions won in Ohio.

Two wins for the night.

I agree, two wins tonight, one in a talent contest, and one for the people, the workers. A refreshing change, I must say.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8305 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
one in a talent contest

When you compare Nancy to some who left a lot earlier it's obvious DWTS is not a dancing contest. It is more like a popularity contest where the viewers can keep some really bad dancers on the show. Nancy proved that.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

It was actually a very good piece of legislation.....but it's simple.....emotion won out...

When words like "the working class" and "rights" get tossed out people get riled up...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):

And the Unions won in Ohio

And the Taxpayers lost.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8305 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
And the Taxpayers lost.

No they didn't. Just the wealthy lost.

And, if you get your health insurance from your employee nanny care you might have won also.  


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
When you compare Nancy to some who left a lot earlier it's obvious DWTS is not a dancing contest. It is more like a popularity contest where the viewers can keep some really bad dancers on the show. Nancy proved that.

This is true, mostly a popularity contest, until the end. My wife told me to say that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
And the Taxpayers lost.

Do not the taxpayers vote in Ohio? I guess the voters, by a majority, believe in fairness. Majority rules. A funny concept, is it not?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
No they didn't. Just the wealthy lost.

Absolutely.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
And the Taxpayers lost.

No they didn't. Just the wealthy lost.

NO.....the taxpayers lost...whats Ohio's unfunded pension liability? Something around the tune of $66 billion!!
Where the hell are you gonna get the money from!?!



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8954 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 23):
NO.....the taxpayers lost

But the people who voted are the taxpayers, I guess workers rights to collective bargaining, won out over money. How else can one interpret the vote tally., the laws defeat? Don't worry, they will try and end run, by splitting the question to exclude police and fire from the law as was done in Wisconsin. I heard that put forth today on the TV. I think it was on Fox.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 thegreatRDU : Do the math...there is not enough money to continue the gravy train.....how long can you keep up the automatic pay raises, double-dip pensions, tenur
26 windy95 : But it happens everyday. you do not have to . it is the union way And now it allow lazy workers to do nothing and discriminates against smarter, hard
27 WarRI1 : My point is the voters, who bothered to vote, and they said, it was quite apparent some Republicans voted with the majority thought this was an over
28 WarRI1 : 42 years, union. I disagree, painting with the same brush, as usual. Painting with the same brush, always a shirker somewhere. I suggest you go to wo
29 Post contains links dreadnought : Because only they pay taxes? Here is the same sort of thing happening in Michigan. This is the sort of Big Labor corruption you guys are supporting.
30 DeltaMD90 : I think the best thing unions could do is pass laws or do something to prevent union abuse. I'm not in the all unions are bad boat, but it's foolish t
31 Ken777 : Taxes and fees. Just like states who actually meet their retirement requirements. Hate to tell you, but your employer doe not pay taxes on your nanny
32 windy95 : Long time Union and a Shop Steward. Several companies and they are all the same. A ;arge chunk live off the work of a smaller share. If you do not se
33 dreadnought : So if I understand you correctly, we should be paying taxes on taxes. You are still missing the point. How about the government slashing its spending
34 WarRI1 : 42 years, never been fired. 36 years in my last job, I had a pure record, not one offense. I earned top pay with OT in my department more than once.
35 Post contains images WarRI1 : I just hate to quote myself, but words of wisdom, should not be wasted. I have worked with many of those mentioned, you do not screw off, trust me. I
36 windy95 : Which is very easy to do in the Union environment. All you need to do is show up. Do not need to insult them. They insult themselves here everyday. N
37 Post contains images WarRI1 : I must be careful, to not directly insult someone. I will use a numbering system, this reply, rates a minus zero. I do like a good and interesting ar
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