Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters  
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Originally Posted by Yahoo
Egyptian Military Using Nerve Gas on Protesters

Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 06:44 AM
By Newsmax Wires

The Egyptian military has been using a banned chemical agent to deal with hundreds of thousands of protesters, according to several news sources.

At least 23 Egyptians have died and more than 1,700 have succumbed to a lethal gas military forces have been using during the past three days in clashes in and around Cairo's Tahrir Square.

link:
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egy...3/id/418927?s=al&promo_code=D935-1

This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

 Wow!


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

Is this like that thing where people were supposedly, but not really, being lit on fire?  


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

I'm not familiar with newsmax. Is it a reliable source?


When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1658 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
At least 23 Egyptians have died and more than 1,700 have succumbed to a lethal gas military forces have been using during the past three days in clashes in and around Cairo's Tahrir Square.

I don´t get that part. "1,700 have succumbed" so is that 1,723 killed then? If so this is the first time I´ve heard such numbers. Or does the verb "to succumb" also applies to being hurt?



MGGS
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2):
I'm not familiar with newsmax. Is it a reliable source?

Newsmax may be an alternate/independent news source - now this is what the BBC (conventional news source) is saying

UN human rights chief Navi Pillay has condemned the "clearly excessive use of force" by Egypt's security forces during clashes with protesters.
Ms Pillay called for an independent inquiry into the deaths of at least 35 people since the weekend.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15854418

protesters were killed -I doubt tear gas kills people - never heard of that so it's got to be some other deadly gas
whatever way this is not good news.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Confirmed by El Baradei Twitter channel - even talking about live ammunition
so the information given by Newsmax is correct

@ElBaradei Mohamed ElBaradei
Tear gas with nerve agent & live ammunition being used against civilians in Tahrir. A massacre is taking place

and this link
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ebf63e

 Wow!  

Raw Video: Egypt Protestors Clash With Police from Associated Press
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVwvbzlN_LY&feature=youtu.be

From Magnum agency
Unrest in Cairo Egypt revolution continues
http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?V...StoryDetail_VPage&pid=2K7O3RKB67E9

LIve blog from Cairo
Wednesday, November 23, 2011
#Tahrir : Day 5’s massacre
http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.c...ronicles+%28Egyptian+chronicles%29

Live video feed from Tahrir Square
http://www.wivb.com/generic/video/cbs_news_video

@RuwaydaMustafah Ruwayda Mustafah
Protester gone into shock after tear-gas, viewer cautioned, disturbing video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXpPT3R4fwQ&feature=youtu.be

Ahdaf Soueif in Cairo: 'By early evening it was clear that this was Revolution II'
The novelist writes from Tahrir Square where the advice is to wear a gas mask and write your name on your arm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...eif-tahrir-square-egypt?CMP=twt_fd

[Edited 2011-11-23 14:16:23]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8836 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

Why would there be an outcry? This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 6):
This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.


Erm, not really. The "government" of Egypt at present is a military caretaker government, not an elected group. The protestors are upset that the military higher ups have been trying to punt democratic elections further into the future while clamping down on attempts to organize for or accelerate the timeline for those elections. The public believes the military does not want to transfer power. In a country where the last ruler used a military emergency to seize power for 29 years and the current military leaders have been almost as repressive as the man who they replaced, that's not such a wildly off base perception.

As for Newsmax, I wouldn't consider them such a reliable source.

[Edited 2011-11-23 15:55:52]

User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2834 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
The Egyptian military has been using a banned chemical agent to deal with hundreds of thousands of protesters, according to several news sources.

Yes indeed, an alarming escalation of counter violence by the caretaker regime.

A banned substance, that according to the Age Newspaper comes from the USA ?

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egy...ary-nerve-gas/2011/11/23/id/418927



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8836 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 7):

Erm, not really. The "government" of Egypt at present is a military caretaker government, not an elected group.

Yes, really. Surely they did not expect an elected government to take over in the next few days. They pushed Mubarak out, hence they brought in the military junta that inevitably would take over. Many people warned about this happening back in January and February.

I'm not saying that Mubarak should have stayed in power. But he had promised not to stand in the next elections, which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power. It's a question of, "Careful what you ask for - you might just get it."



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
Yes, really.

Again, no.

You said:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 6):
This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.

It clearly isn't. The international community was happy to see the end of the Mubarak regime, and eager to see honestly democratic elections take place in Egypt since 1924. This is specifically not "the government that the International Community was so excited to usher in."

It isn't even the government that the people within Egypt who fought for an end to the Mubarak regime wanted to see. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
But he had promised not to stand in the next elections, which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power.

I can't possibly see how that would have been anything less than simply waiting for the discontent to go away so that Mubarak could re-establish his hold on power. If Mubarak had done this, either he would have stayed in power and not yielded at all in the "elections" or eventually he'd have been murdered - and if anything, that would have led to an even less orderly situation.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
Surely they did not expect an elected government to take over in the next few days.

Hosni Mubarak stepped down on Feb. 11. Today is November 23rd (actually, it's already the 24th in Egypt). So rather than a few days, it's been ten months.

During that time, the military leaders have repeatedly resisted democratic reform and repeatedly, in some cases very haphazardly, cracked down on dissent (even on some people who were not dissenters at all). In that time, Egypt's economy has continued to worsen and one of it's key industries, tourism, has virtually evaporated.

They've got every right to agitate for democratic elections and every right to do it peacefully without being killed.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1490 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power.

Sure...to his son. Which in itself would have been pretty dodgy and had the potential for a lot of upheaval, because some of the higher military brass did not want him, due to the fact that he was not military. In fact, I believe the military were so keen to let Mubarak fall because they wanted to avoid a confrontation between themselves when the time came for Hosni Junior to seat in daddy´s throne. The solution was given to them in a silver platter. I don´t really believe they were ever concerned with "democracy" and those other Western niceties such as "human rights", "freedom of expression" and others.

Let´s hope this does not turn into another Tiannanmen.

[Edited 2011-11-23 19:36:26]


MGGS
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8836 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 10):
It clearly isn't. The international community was happy to see the end of the Mubarak regime, and eager to see honestly democratic elections take place in Egypt since 1924. This is specifically not "the government that the International Community was so excited to usher in."

Yeah, they prefer Syria's regime.

http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?id=2750557&campaign_id=65378

Quote:
UNESCO elects Syria to human rights committees

GENEVA, Nov. 23 – UNESCO’s executive board, which includes the US, France, the UK and other Western democracies, unanimously elected Syria to a pair of committees – one dealing directly with human rights issues – even as the Bashar al-Assad regime maintains its campaign of violence against its own citizens.

The Arab group at UNESCO nominated Syria for the spots, and though the 58-member board approved the pick by consensus on Nov. 11, the agency has not yet posted the results on its website.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 12):
Yeah, they prefer Syria's regime.

So one organization = entire international community. Riiight. If you took all the wiring out of a DC-10 and laid it out end to end, maybe it would stretch this far.

The international community has roundly condemned Syria and it's regime, to the point where it was suspended from the Arab league. UNESCO, which has been courting serious controversy for months, hardly represents the entire international community. In fact, even fellow UN-related organizations seem to be in direct contravention of UNESCO's flawed decision. This doesn't seem like they prefer Syria, does it:

http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/p.../11/22/syria_faces_un_condemnation


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12489 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1382 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

Wait. You decry outside involvement in Libya and the overthrowing of the "legitimate government", but now you're calling for it in Egypt? I'm confused.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

According to a report Tahrir tear gas to be linked to U.S. manufacturer. This same manufacturer was quoted by several sources after the events.

“Yes, America,” the male replied furiously. The throng murmured with unsurprised disdain. Like most gas canisters in Tahrir, one of his was noted with blue letters which review “Made in USA” and gimlet the name of the association which constructed it: Combined Tactical Systems, in Jamestown, PA.

http://www.magissue.com/tahrir-tear-...n=Feed%3A+magissue+%28Mag+Issue%29

 

Tahrir, How to deal with tear gas
Egypt is 1 of 5 nations that haven’t signed the Chemical Weapons Convention & are unhindered by restrictions on use of CS gas.
...
What is probably happening is several types of gas are being used, which makes it confusing.

http://democrati.net/2011/11/21/how-to-deal-with-tear-gas/

[Edited 2011-11-24 04:28:59]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12489 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1373 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
According to a report Tahrir tear gas to be linked to U.S. manufacturer. This same manufacturer was quoted by several sources after the events.

Tear gas, as opposed to "nerve gas". Big difference.

Anyway, it'a all OK now because the Egyptian military has apologised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15867535

Quote:
Egypt's ruling military has apologised for the deaths of about 35 protesters in clashes with police, amid continuing protests in Cairo and other cities.

The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (Scaf) said it regretted "the deaths of martyrs from among Egypt's loyal sons".

Also, no mention in the article of "nerve gas" but claims of the use of live ammunition.

Quote:
Protesters have spoken of gunshots and injuries or deaths from live bullets, but Interior Minister Mansour el-Essawy said security forces were only firing tear gas.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
According to a report Tahrir tear gas

Wait, now it's tear gas? You do realize that there is a difference between tear gas and nerve gas right? How anyone could not make the distinction is beyond me.  
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
linked to U.S. manufacturer.

Exports help the economy. Good for them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1317 times:

Another day of protests in Cairo. Will it turn as violent?

Tahrir Square protests day six – in pictures

Egyptian troops have deployed barbed wire fences and barricades and concrete blocks to separate protesters and riot police in and around side streets leading from Cairo's Tahrir Square to the nearby interior ministry in a bid to prevent further violent clashes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...r-square-egypt-protest-in-pictures

More pictures on this link (text is in arabic)
http://arabic.arabia.msn.com/gallery...D=515252&Num=3&catId=24&ref=twtpge

Medical Students and doctors making a human barrier at Muhammed mahmoud st.
http://yfrog.com/oe4udmj

Gassing the revolution: The US origins of Tahrir tears
The liberal use of US-manufactured tear gas on unarmed protesters in recent days has raised questions about its public health effects - and who is actually ordering its use
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/27537.aspx


  

[Edited 2011-11-24 09:13:36]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12489 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 1276 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
Egypt is 1 of 5 nations that haven’t signed the Chemical Weapons Convention & are unhindered by restrictions on use of CS gas.

Misleading - that convention only covers the use of CS gas in a war. Its domestic use is not covered by any conventions and is, as such, largely legal.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 1263 times:

Youtube video (in arabic) Uploaded by dmbahgat80 on Nov 23, 2011

Incredible footage from Mostafa Bahgat. Look how much shotgun they're firing at us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JmBTotCWQ&feature=youtu.be

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 1251 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Incredible footage from Mostafa Bahgat. Look how much shotgun they're firing at us

What a bunch of innocent, well behaved protesters.   And the shotgun is obviously loaded with less lethal ammo, probably less dangerous than the rocks being tossed, so I fail to see the injustice.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7881 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 1246 times:

Oh tear gas!? That isn't bad at all. I mean it sucked when I had to go through the gas chamber but it is a far cry from some other gas. The question is whether these protests are legal and calm, or violent and crazy... If they are good protests then it's really a freedom of speech issue, if they are rowdy protests, shame on the protesters. Then again, there have been quite a few deaths...


Keep us informed. It doesn't seem as bad as the initial stories were making it. Good luck Egypt!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 1235 times:

Tonight's live feed from Tahrir Square

h t t p://rt.c o m/o n-ai r/e g yp t-ta h rir-c las hes-li v e/

I had to put the blanks or the link wouldn't post.

There are a lot of people out there.

Tomorrow Friday is the Million Man March.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 1235 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 18):
Gassing the revolution: The US origins of Tahrir tears
The liberal use of US-manufactured tear gas on unarmed protesters in recent days has raised questions about its public health effects - and who is actually ordering its use

I'm going to have to echo the sentiments of others and point out that there's an enormous difference between Tear gas and "nerve gas."

Although harming the protesters is deplorable, the difference between Tear gas and Nerve gas is the difference between riot control and genocide.

Furthermore, the Tear gas may be US made, but that doesn't have any bearing on how the U.S. feels about the conflict. The Egyptian military uses weapons made in a vast array of countries - the U.S., Russia, Italy, Poland, the Czech Republic, the U.K., Germany, Spain, Belgium, even Switzerland. Where this equipment is made doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how these countries feel about the ongoing protests or about which way the government goes.


25 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : I never heard of deaths from tear gas. There were 39 fatalities last night. Not sure if they were all from gun shots. Military Council head appoints
26 directorguy : It's not just a case of 'the military is beating up innocent, calm protesters'. I think everyone overreacted to everything-you had small incidents lik
27 scbriml : You already answered your own question.
28 AR385 : People can die from Tear Gas, but very rarely happens and it is a case of the individual having a bad reaction to it, such as asthma or pulmonary edem
29 DeltaMD90 : It's "less than lethal" not "non lethal." There is a big difference. Rubber bullets and these shotgun rounds are less than lethal, and they have the p
30 dxing : Riot control and murder. They would have to be systematically going around and killing people of a certain tribe or sect for it to be genocide. Bean
31 Post contains links MadameConcorde : From The Guardian - not a conspiracy/obscure news site Egyptian military using 'more dangerous' teargas on Tahrir Square protesters Doctors report se
32 Post contains links oldeuropean : So obviously CR gas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CR_gas
33 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Today the organizations have called for a Million Man march. Live feed from Tahrir Square. It is now early afternoon in Cairo. The place is packed. Si
34 Post contains images MadameConcorde : This has got to be the picture of the day! An epic Egyptian woman in niqab: https://p.twimg.com/AfBwsvACEAAs_7N.jpg Tahrir Square still packed with pr
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Decoding Military Time posted Mon Dec 27 2010 06:29:11 by wardialer
Mossad Behind Egyptian Shark Attacks? posted Mon Dec 13 2010 21:23:02 by deltaownsall
Just How Stupid Is The Military? posted Mon Dec 6 2010 20:29:34 by Ken777
US Military Gay Ban Stays posted Tue Sep 21 2010 16:23:45 by TheCommodore
17000 Protest Japanese Surround US Military Base posted Tue May 18 2010 19:46:16 by Aaron747
Military Medal For Courageous Restraint posted Wed May 12 2010 14:55:42 by PacNWJet
Lesbian Sgt. Discharged After Police Tell Military posted Sat Mar 13 2010 17:16:11 by todaReisinger
Blackwater In Hot Water - Double Bills US Military posted Thu Feb 11 2010 17:07:14 by stasisLAX
Reports: Iran Protesters 'Savagely Attacked' posted Wed Dec 23 2009 09:52:01 by FuturePilot16
75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military posted Fri Nov 6 2009 15:17:09 by Aaron747
Just How Stupid Is The Military? posted Mon Dec 6 2010 20:29:34 by Ken777
US Military Gay Ban Stays posted Tue Sep 21 2010 16:23:45 by TheCommodore
17000 Protest Japanese Surround US Military Base posted Tue May 18 2010 19:46:16 by Aaron747
Military Medal For Courageous Restraint posted Wed May 12 2010 14:55:42 by PacNWJet
Lesbian Sgt. Discharged After Police Tell Military posted Sat Mar 13 2010 17:16:11 by todaReisinger
Blackwater In Hot Water - Double Bills US Military posted Thu Feb 11 2010 17:07:14 by stasisLAX
Reports: Iran Protesters 'Savagely Attacked' posted Wed Dec 23 2009 09:52:01 by FuturePilot16