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US Government Financial Summary  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12954 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2373 times:

I received a chain e-mail, so I can't substantiate any of the claims, but the main part of the e-mail was:

Quote:

US Government Financial Summary:
• U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
• Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
• New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
• National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
• Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000

Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:
• Annual family income: $21,700
• Money the family spent: $38,200
• New debt on the credit card: $16,500
• Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
• Total budget cuts: $385

*IF* it is true, it's quite sobering, no?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineklaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2361 times:

Chain emails are almost always intended to manipulate their receivers to a specific end.

User currently onlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6539 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 2348 times:

And what is the problem? As long as the Chinese lend you $1,650bn more every year.

It only becomes sort of problem when the Chinese put conditions on new loans and on extending old loans.

Even then there will be a positive side effect. You will save a lot of costs on running the Congress and the Senate and all such things since the US of A will be managed free of charge from Beijing.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 2341 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
National debt: $14,271,000,000,000

A common deception used by many for their own political purposes, or by America-haters for petty reasons.

The more accurate figure is "only" $10,438,000,000,000 as shown by official figures here.

Debt held by the public is the relevant figure, as this is the only figure comparable to what every other nation reports as its national debt.

Intragovernmental debt is nothing more than what part of the American government owes to another part and really is not part of the national debt because it is owed to no one. No one can file suit to recover it, it can be cancelled at anytime with no one able to claim damages - it exists as an accounting placeholder only. Essentialy it represents the amount the US government over-collected in Social Security taxes but which were spent in areas besides social security. Or, put another way the intragovernmental debt figure represents part of the future obligations to pay social security under current pay scales...again no other country counts as national debt that which may be owed to future generations.

BTW, the more accurate 10 trillion figure at around 71% of GDP is rather modest compared to most of Europe, Japan, etc...

Pu


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
*IF* it is true, it's quite sobering, no?

Not only sobering, but terrifying !

Quoting Pu (Reply 3):
The more accurate figure is "only" $10,438,000,000,000 as shown
Quoting Pu (Reply 3):
BTW, the more accurate 10 trillion figure at around 71% of GDP is rather modest compared to most of Europe, Japan, etc...

Mere semantics !

10 or 14, who cares, its shocking, which ever way you look at it.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 3):

A common deception used by many for their own political purposes, or by America-haters for petty reasons.

Is denialism the new Conservative tactic? There's no environment problem. There's no financial problem. There's no debt problem. There's no problem with healthcare. There's no problem with the infrastructure.

I don't get it.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Is denialism the new Conservative tactic?

I actually think a conservative is more likely to use the higher debt figure and champion the fear of high debts, right? Aren't they the ones wanting to attack Obama on spending and a large government?

My point is that few people know about intragovernmental debt and how it plays into the overall "total debt" figure for America. This is important mainly in comparing US national debt to other first world nations. For domestic politics, understanding the intragovernmental debt situation probably doesn't matter as much.

Germany's public debt is 82%, France is 82%, Japan 200%, Canada 84%, China 33%, Australia 26% and America's is 71%. It's relevant to use the accurate figure of public debt and not include intragovernmental debt.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
10 or 14, who cares,

14 is of course 40% more than 10, which for me is not a 'who cares' difference. Also, since the US economy is roughly 14 trillion we are talking about America potentially owing a years worth of GDP versus owing 8 months GDP to its creditors.

Pu


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 6):
Also, since the US economy is roughly 14 trillion we are talking about America potentially owing a years worth of GDP versus owing 8 months GDP to its creditors.

As I said above, "who cares" !

8 months or 12 months, its still a terrible situation whichever way you look at it  Wow!



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
As long as the Chinese lend you $1,650bn more every year.

Two-thirds of US debt is financed by Americans, one-third by foreigners and China owns aabout 8 percent of US debt held by the public...so assuming China continues its US investment at the same rate, it "only" needs to lend somewhat less than one-tenth of the figure you mentioned.

Of course a country with a large trade deficit must run a corresponding capital account surplus....in other words if China wants to sell so much of its gross domestic product to America it has no choice but to finance American debt. Much as a car manufacturer that offers financing to a consumer to buy its cars needs customers it is instructive to look and see if China needs buyers for its goods more than America needs a buyer of 8% of its government debt.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
8 months or 12 months, its still a terrible situation whichever way you look at it

Well everyone has an opinion but compared to the rest of the world America is hardly in a terrible situation with its national debt.

Pu

[Edited 2011-12-23 00:18:04]

User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 8):
Well everyone has an opinion but compared to the rest of the world America is hardly in a terrible situation with its national debt.

So what is it exactly that your saying.....

Americas indebtedness is a figment of everyone's imagination and the level of debt is nothing to be concerned about. Another words, carry on like nothings wrong ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
So what is it exactly that your saying.....

Americas indebtedness is a figment of everyone's imagination and the level of debt is nothing to be concerned about. Another words, carry on like nothings wrong ?

I've explained it in posts above, but some are just tickled to imagine America is in bad shape with its national debt, regardless of the evidence.

Germany, Japan, Canada, France, etc.. all have higher debt as a percent of GDP than America. All are wealthy countries with great standards of living and good economies. All have much less of an asset base to borrow from. None of these countries have the world's only reserve currency and all of these countries borrow at much higher rates than the USA. The USA can and does monetize its debt (simply print more money to pay off debt) with no effect on inflation and even as America prints more money to pay off its debt its currency continues to appreciate as the demand for dollars increases in the ongoing euro crisis.

Furthermore, the interest rate paid on a recent US government auction of Treasury notes is a trivial .125 percent. (Yes, that is a decimal in front of the 125) In other words, America is capable of borrowing money for very little cost. Did you ever pause to think how it might be desirable to borrow money from those willing to lend it as opposed to tax those who don't want to give their money to the government? Especially if borrowiing costs are so low?

Would you care so much about your credit card use if the only interest you paid was POINT 125 percent?

America had well over 100% of its GDP in debt during WW2 and that was the event that brought America to superpower status. Is more debt a good thing? Probably not. Is America "terrible" on a world scale? Far from it.

Pu

[Edited 2011-12-23 00:51:05]

[Edited 2011-12-23 00:53:52]

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12954 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Is denialism the new Conservative tactic? There's no environment problem. There's no financial problem. There's no debt problem. There's no problem with healthcare. There's no problem with the infrastructure.

I don't get it.
Quoting Pu (Reply 6):
I actually think a conservative is more likely to use the higher debt figure and champion the fear of high debts, right? Aren't they the ones wanting to attack Obama on spending and a large government?

Both interesting points.

It shows it's hard to use a word like conservative.

It just seems to me some people act as if what they do has no impact on others, and that they are totally self-reliant. It might be nice if that was true, but it isn't. We all need to work with each other to get by, and try to leave this world a better place than the way we found it. If that sounds uber-liberal, so be it.

Quoting Pu (Reply 8):
Of course a country with a large trade deficit must run a corresponding capital account surplus....in other words if China wants to sell so much of its gross domestic product to America it has no choice but to finance American debt. Much as a car manufacturer that offers financing to a consumer to buy its cars needs customers it is instructive to look and see if China needs buyers for its goods more than America needs a buyer of 8% of its government debt.

Very interesting points, especially the one above!

I'm not very knowledgeable about China, but I imagine at some point it'll be more about internal consumption instead of exports.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
Would you care so much about your credit card use if the only interest you paid was POINT 125 percent?

'
Excellent posts above on ths matter.

However this interest rate is bound to go up when the economy approves, and much like the housing bubble and ARM's. when new debt is incurred it won't be at this luxury rate, so the spending needs to come a bit more under control.

Of course when the economy recovers, the Governemnt will have a lot more income as less folks will be on welfare, and more will be paying taxes. Inflation may make the current debt looks small, but it still remains that the US Government needs more stability in it's fiscal policy.

Quoting Pu (Reply 3):
Intragovernmental debt is nothing more than what part of the American government owes to another part and really is not part of the national debt because it is owed to no one.

It's real debt. Now the governemnt could wipe it away, but that is just because the US Governemnt can print dollar bills. However that 4 billion is still real enough that they borrowed it from a surplus department.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
There's no financial problem. There's no debt problem

Let's not go to far there Dpc..... financial and debt problems are the bread and butter of the Tea Party movement and the driver for what led the GOP to a rather embarrasing brink this week when it crossed squarely with a tax cut.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2185 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
It just seems to me some people act as if what they do has no impact on others, and that they are totally self-reliant. It might be nice if that was true, but it isn't. We all need to work with each other to get by, and try to leave this world a better place than the way we found it.

Don't say that about tea people. That is socialism! Tea people hate socialism. Unless they personally benefit from it.

What I don't understand: Since corporations are people, why not tax them as people?

Also, let's keep in mind the House of Representatives make all the spending and taxing.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
I'm not very knowledgeable about China, but I imagine at some point it'll be more about internal consumption instead of exports.

I'll try to keep on the topic of this thread except to say that where China is concerned, you can be sure predictions about its future are wrong insofar as they are adopted by more and more people and become conventional wisdom.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
Excellent posts above on ths matter.

However this interest rate is bound to go up when the economy approves,

Probably true, although there have been historical periods where interest rates stayed the same for a decade or more. My point is that borrowing at .125 percent is hardly different from collecting revenue in taxes yet it allows those to give money to the government who choose to as opposed to simply taxing everyone.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
so the spending needs to come a bit more under control.

Agreed.
All the 1st world democracies need to get their borrowing under control.
The major problem IMO is that politicians have to run for office and thus have no incentive to do anything but spend and borrow for quick gains...and have little incentive to practice restraint, prudence, cost-cutting or do anything that doesn't pay off big time before the next election.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
but it still remains that the US Government needs more stability in it's fiscal policy.

Yes and yes again.
But really it needs a government that doesn't so closely fit the definition of dysfuctional. The Republicans and Democrats are happy to go to war with each other for short term political points while the American people pay the price.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
It's real debt. Now the governemnt could wipe it away, but that is just because the US Governemnt can print dollar bills. However that 4 billion is still real enough that they borrowed it from a surplus department.

No, big disagreement here.
Printing dollar bills is not necessary because there is no one to pay off this "debt" to. It is a fiction created for political purposes.

No other country has this 'intragovernmental debt' as a reported part of national debt. It was only created in the US as a political tool to remind everyone that taxes which on your paycheck are marked 'social security' are being used to fund things beside soscial security.

But this is only an accounting placeholder, if both the lender and the debtor are the same entity, then the debt does not exist, which is the case here.

It is like if you have two bank accounts and moved money from Account A to cover an overdraft in Account B. You may imagine just for your own thought process that Account B owes money to Account A...but really its all your money anyway so you can't owe money to yourself!

Pu


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Is denialism the new Conservative tactic? There's no environment problem. There's no financial problem. There's no debt problem. There's no problem with healthcare. There's no problem with the infrastructure.

I don't get it.

None of the points you made actually represent conservative positions and instead show the inability of liberals to prioritize and execute in an effective manner. This is an expected outcome given the number of leaders in today's Democratic party who entered politics without real-world experience in a results-driven environment.

There's plenty of ways we could improve environmental standards and healthcare, but we must implement them during a demand-depressed economy and we must choose the policy options with highest compliance cost for employers at a time of high unemployment? The status quo is so unacceptable that we can't wait for economic recovery to address these issues?

Debt and infrastructure are real problems, but we can't fund an effective government with the $2.6 trillion in federal receipts? That is an astronomical sum of money. How can the role of government be so poorly defined that $2.6 trillion isn't sufficient for our public needs?

The purpose of liberal and conservative philosophies should be to provide alternate and competing solutions to our policy needs in government. The problem with today's leaders is that they can't properly prioritize, define, or propose solutions to the right problems. My suggestion is to start at the top and throw the idiots out ASAP.


User currently offlineklaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
Germany, Japan, Canada, France, etc.. all have higher debt as a percent of GDP than America. All are wealthy countries with great standards of living and good economies. All have much less of an asset base to borrow from.

That is debatable.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
None of these countries have the world's only reserve currency

You're reminiscing about a time that is already in the past. The Euro is already a major reserve currency today, with all the associated consequences.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
and all of these countries borrow at much higher rates than the USA.

The difference is not very large. And there are quite a few differences which are quite troubling on the american side:
– A deadlocked political situation with a rabidly destructive right which sets its priority on the destruction of the state, on the interests of the rich at the expense of everything and everyone else and on a social and religious reversal towards the middle ages instead of finding ways for a constructive way forwards, including reasonable compromises with political opponents.
– A severely decayed infrastructure.
– A decaying and in many respects uncompetitive industrial base.
– Very high and unsustainable levels of private debt at and below the middle class.
– Rising social and societal costs of poverty.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
The USA can and does monetize its debt (simply print more money to pay off debt) with no effect on inflation

Printing money does not necessarily result in inflation right away when the newly printed money is still soaked up temporarily. It is when it's sloshing back without sufficient value to back it up that inflation will start to climb. That can be delayed, but such a delay is not "proof" that inflation will just never happen as a result.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
Did you ever pause to think how it might be desirable to borrow money from those willing to lend it as opposed to tax those who don't want to give their money to the government? Especially if borrowiing costs are so low?

Are you for real? Taxes are not repayable. Even if you're getting a loan at 0% you still have to repay those 100%.

I shudder at the thought that there actually are politicians who can't distinguish between the two.

Taxes are not a panacea, but loans by their very definition are not a sustainable way of financing – they are only temporary tools for certain purposes.

The actual expenses of a state must always be paid from the taxes and other revenues – loans can only bridge temporary gaps.

That politicians have failed to understand this perfectly simple and obvious principle has got us into the mess most of us are in (to varying degrees).

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
Is more debt a good thing? Probably not. Is America "terrible" on a world scale? Far from it.

The USA have a dangerous imbalance between their debt levels and the productivity of their real economy and a political blockade of necessary reforms.

There are plenty of challenges in the EU as well, but in many respects we're much farther along in the modernization of our economies, with a much healthier ratio of real vs. financial industry and a much more constructive political culture (unfortunately Britain must be exempted on all counts).


User currently offlineklaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 14):
Printing dollar bills is not necessary because there is no one to pay off this "debt" to. It is a fiction created for political purposes.

No, it is very much real and has absolutely real consequences – these consequences are just deferred, not nullified.

That is exactly the shortsighted way you get into an inflationary downturn or into a debt crisis later when you think that consequences of your current actions which aren't obvious right away won't ever come back to you.

But they will. That's the whole point of the current crisis.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Klaus, 10 years and 20000 posts later you are still taking every opportunity to predict America's failure and European triumph! I join you in hoping the next 10 years turn out somewhat better in acheiving your dearest dreams, at least where EU success is concerned, as I have every hope for continued American prosperity!

Quoting klaus (Reply 16):
You're reminiscing about a time that is already in the past. The Euro is already a major reserve currency today, with all the associated consequences.

The dollar is the 2:1 favourite as the reserve currency and the euro is being sold briskly.

Quoting klaus (Reply 16):
That is debatable.

In no way is it debateable that France or Germany have far fewer assets than the USA, in no way is it debateable that their debt in public hands is higher than America's.

Quoting klaus (Reply 16):
It is when it's sloshing back without sufficient value to back it up that inflation will start to climb. That can be delayed, but such a delay is not "proof" that inflation will just never happen as a result.

America has been printing its way out of debt for 30+ years, and most especially in the last 10 years yet its inflation is mild.

German historical fear of inflation will cause the EU to fall into at least a mild recession again in 2012 as America and maybe Britain surge forward. They may have one or two points higher inflation but they do and will have growing economies which through their very growth are inherently inflationary.

America has repeatedly inflated its way out of recessions and is doing so again - with the rise in production and prosperity outpacing the very mild rise in inflation.

Quoting klaus (Reply 16):
Are you for real? Taxes are not repayable. Even if you're getting a loan at 0% you still have to repay those 100%.

Are you for real?
Or living in an economics textbook?....did you notice we were talking about America's ability to print money to pay off its debt?
For some, namely America, paying off its debt is essentially NOT repayable or at least only partially repayable, since they create money out of thin air that the rest of the world greedily gobbles up.

Quoting klaus (Reply 16):
unfortunately Britain must be exempted on all counts).

The UK and America have long outgrown Europe and doubtless will continue to do so...and btw I wouldn't be so sure that the other more healthy states in the EU will be marching down the Franco-German path as loyally as you no doubt desperately hope.

Quoting klaus (Reply 17):
No, it is very much real and has absolutely real consequences – these consequences are just deferred, not nullified.

In first year economics textbooks and in the minds of German-dominated central bankers - yes. But in reality America prints money and runs large fiscal and trade deficits with none of the inflation or devalued dollar so unfairly absent from their world. The "intragovernmental debt" shown on America's books is merely taxes already collected under the caption 'social security' but spent on other government programs. No country in Europe counts as national debt the future payments allegedly owed to future generations so it is not correct to consider intragovernmental debt as anything but a housekeeping number used by the Americans for domestic political arguments.

Pu

[Edited 2011-12-23 11:55:55]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 6):

I actually think a conservative is more likely to use the higher debt figure and champion the fear of high debts, right?

It was the Tea Party a few months ago saying, "We can default on our debts. It won't be bad at all."

I was flabbergasted. Just absolutely floored.


User currently onlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6539 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 2070 times:

It scares me a bit to see how some posters are downplaying the severity. It sounds much like some former prime ministers of Greece and Italy one year ago. The real problem is not so much the total debt today, but rather...

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
%u2022 U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
%u2022 Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
%u2022 New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000

Spreading that over 300mn Americans, then for a family of four that is exactly $22k new debt per year. It's like scrapping the family car every year and buying a new one on the credit card without ever intending to pay. The grandchildren will pay.

Many Americans will say that they can afford that debt, while others won't care mainly because they know that they can never pay. The former (upper class + upper middle class) must know that they will have to pay a lot more than the $22k/yr, since the latter are right when they figure that they can't pay.

It is correct that the German per capita debt is slightly larger than the US. But that's not the main issue. Over two decades Germany has spent a lot on rebuilding one fifth of the country from slightly above stone age. The market believed in the effort and was not let down. Today the German economy is fairly well balanced even when they are faced with new "Merkozy" rescue plans. The US situation with very fast escalating debts is a different issue, and has a much higher risk of getting out of control.

One day the interest rate goes up. Then the Fed will have to borrow a lot more to cover the interests. "The market" will react by being reluctant to lend more money, and you are caught in the debt trap. Forced to pay back the whole debt in a few years time with little ability to borrow, and only at short term and horrendous interest rates.

It has been posted here that the US $ has suffered little inflation lately. That is correct when comparing to currencies of other mismanaged countries such as many EU countries, Japan etc. But it wasn't so long time ago the that one US$ bought you 2.5 or 3 Swiss Franks, while today you get 90 rappen. And that's only because when it hit 70 rappen the Swiss national bank started pumping out enormous amounts of Franks in order to keep Swiss industries competitive in a Euro dominated market.

And please remember, the US of A does not have a "Merkozy" to come to their rescue.

It really doesn't matter whether the debt is domestic or international. Major US investors, such as pension funds etc, invest their money where they get the best profit, the inflation taken into account. That means that when inflation is EXPECTED, then they add the inflation rate to their interest rate, or they invest abroad. It is as simple as that. There is one way to get around that, it is to close the national economy like the former USSR.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineAsianDude From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 2060 times:

I never understand why so many so-called American conservatives think the US government is comparable to a family or a family's finances. The US government by its very definition of the above numbers shows that it is anything but that, but rather a large insurance company with an army. What am I missing?




User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):

Quoting Pu (Reply 6):

I actually think a conservative is more likely to use the higher debt figure and champion the fear of high debts, right?

It was the Tea Party a few months ago saying, "We can default on our debts. It won't be bad at all."

I was flabbergasted. Just absolutely floored.

I think it was the TP's borderline obsession with making Obama look bad that trumped their real values. When I say TP I mean the politicians that hijacked the movement. Although I didn't participate in the initial TP events, it was a great, innocent grassroots movement aimed at smaller government. Today, it has a tarnished rep (partially due to their own actions.) I wonder what the TP would look like today if they didn't get hijacked by social conservatives.......



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 3):
Intragovernmental debt is nothing more than what part of the American government owes to another part and really is not part of the national debt because it is owed to no one. No one can file suit to recover it, it can be cancelled at anytime with no one able to claim damages - it exists as an accounting placeholder only. Essentialy it represents the amount the US government over-collected in Social Security taxes but which were spent in areas besides social security. Or, put another way the intragovernmental debt figure represents part of the future obligations to pay social security under current pay scales...again no other country counts as national debt that which may be owed to future generations.

Oh boy.....prepare to put on your asbestos suit when Ken777 reads that one!!!

While I agree with you in principal, in reality if the government were to try and renege on that debt there would be millions of seniors taking to the streets with pitchforks and torches. And I would agree with them. While the entitlement programs are in serious need of reform to keep them from collapsing, they must be maintained for those that honestly paid into them. Future generations though will probably have to do with much less or without.

After that we differ in our approaches. I as a consumer could not get a loan from a bank with 71% debt ratio. Therein lies the problem, the interest on that debt continues to grow and the interest rates that will be available from all sources will also grow. Already 3 times in the past year the Treasury has had problems attracting buyers at the initial published interest rates on securities and had to go back and make adjustments. Printing more money creates nothing but more paper in the market which devalues that that remains in circulation. At some point the interest rate damn is going to break and we simply will not be able to print our way out of it.

We need to address our debt and while draconian measures such as those being imposed on some countries in the EU are not called for, nor even the austerity measures in the UK are necessary, the types of reforms that Canada performed a few years ago would not be out of place for us.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 23):
Oh boy.....prepare to put on your asbestos suit when Ken777 reads that one!!!

Nah. He's too new at "that" debate. I'll wait.   

Quoting dxing (Reply 23):
in reality if the government were to try and renege on that debt there would be millions of seniors taking to the streets

More than that. Because the loans from the Social Security Trust were formal loans paying interest the financial reputation of the Federal Treasury is based, in part, on those financial obligations.

Of course the politicians can force through a write down, just like they can on all of the other Treasury obligations.

Just think of how our credit ratings would move on that act. We fell when the politicians had their head somewhere (    ) this past year and there were no failures on our obligations.

And, if we were to write off that obligation, what is going to happen to our economy? Not pretty.

There would be more than Seniors taking to the streets.


25 dxing : Unfortunately you continue to error on that point. Pu is absolutely correct in his assesment of those loans. Writing them off would only make our act
26 Ken777 : Default and watch how far this country's credit rating. Pregnant is pregnant and default is default. That is the complex issue that the Tea Party can
27 dxing : Since it is money the government lent itself from what is essentially a savings account, the credit rating won't change one bit. A very poor analogy
28 Post contains images Ken777 : Keep believing that. And remember the credit rating hit when the Tea Party was having a circle jerk with the debt ceiling. As we have been shown, we
29 Post contains images petertenthije : But that money had already been earmarked for pensions etc. So you are just kicking the can. Sure, you don't get interest now, but a few years from n
30 dxing : Yes, because the President refused to make the hard choices that his own debt commission recommended. His State of the Union address only addressed m
31 Ken777 : The conservatives thought the same thing this past year. They were ready to shut down the government down and. oooops!, there was that unexpected dow
32 Post contains links Pu : When will this justification expire? 30 years perhaps? By the 1960s the economic miracle in Germany was booming 20 years after the nation was in rubb
33 windy95 : If you manned up and jumped off a high bridge would this generation also have to do that? Not our falut that you did not stop them from robbing your
34 dxing : The downgrade was because spending was not cut enough to offset even increased tax revenue. In other words, we could have gone back to the Clinton er
35 windy95 : Most runways and expansions are also funded with muni bonds. I have had several for Miami and Tampa. A nice tax free stable revenue. They on the aver
36 DocLightning : Quite, but the rest of your point absolutely beggars reality. The reality is quite beautifully summed up below by a non-American. This is America in
37 dxing : Perhaps if the democrats in the Senate would actually do some work instead of just calling every bill that comes from the House DOA something could b
38 Post contains images klaus : That makes absolute sense – german cars have superior handling, and with worsening roads you'll need that more than ever!
39 Post contains images dxing : Well if the slightest little chuckhole knocks them off course then what good are they?
40 Post contains images klaus : It doesn't. That's the whole point.
41 Post contains images dxing : Then they don't really have superior handling then do they? My F-150 will plow through a chuckhole (when you can find them around here) and still be
42 Post contains images klaus : So you're fine with your F-150 just as long as potholes just happen to stay clear of bends in the road. Ours sure don't, but I'm sure american pothol
43 Post contains images dxing : They can be anywhere in the road they like. Even the Crown would just glide over them. By the way you make it sound it seems to be a standard package
44 Post contains images Ken777 : So your preference is that we should have invested in AIG and all of the other private companies who have crashed? If you would have said that before
45 czbbflier : Yes, it is thought provoking but it is oversimplified to garner a knee-jerk reaction. Highly, highly debatable. See below. Source? Alas, a two-edged
46 Post contains links Pu : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41349653...-might-us-factories-maintain-edge/ https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186ra
47 Post contains links and images dxing : The credit down grade happened in August, 7 months after the GOP took control of the House. It was driven by a lack of spending reduction and revenue
48 Post contains images Superfly : This is embarrassing, irresponsible and downright dangerous. But hey, the President looks good on TV so everything will be fine. Hope & Change!
49 CasInterest : And it was such a worthless downgrade by the S&P because the US dollar still remains the best choice in town for worldwide investors. Let's not b
50 DocLightning : Please cite one instance of an increase in a federal education budget in the last ten years. Just one. Because if you keep cutting budgets (which is
51 Post contains links dxing : Agreed. Agreed. Pick them if you wish. I confined myself to the obvious from this administration. Hopefully future administrations will take a second
52 Dreadnought : We keep talking about the need to send more kids to university - that's the last thing we need. Pell Grants and state-sponsored tuition and Sally Mae
53 windy95 : There should be no federal funding for education. The money should stay in the towns, cities and states where it belongs. As long as they are dragged
54 Superfly : Your post is similar to another thread. Here is the same response. You are 100% spot on! I wish I had more time to elaborate more on this tonight but
55 Ken777 : If we had had some reality instead of Tea Partier trying to hold a revolution in the House it probably could have been avoided. We have had generatio
56 Dreadnought : [/quote] No question he was a big-time liberal, ex-hippie who went around barefoot all the time. He also wanted to make sure that each Apple product w
57 Ken777 : And, looking at Apple's performance under him that might be a good requirement for other CEOs whose corporate and stock performance falls below Apple
58 Post contains images Superfly : Correct on both accounts. Let's hope so!
59 Post contains links dxing : Reality like the Presidents original proposal of a "clean" debt limit increase with no spending reductions? You mean responsible for taking our debt
60 Post contains images Ken777 : Like other Presidents have enjoyed during your lifetime? Looks like that has changed and will be fair game for both parties to play when the other pa
61 FlyPNS1 : But this makes no sense if you insist that education is a state/local issue only. If you want the federal government out of education, why are you in
62 Post contains links dxing : And that thinking has come to an end. The democrats themselves ran on the huge deficit spending of the Bush administration (which seems pretty paltry
63 CasInterest : We are not going down the same road. The Deficits are so large due to the cliff the economy went over. The loss of jobs and Income from 2007-2009 was
64 Post contains links dxing : Yes we are. We continue to borrow at unsustainable rates and the administrations own projections say these kind of deficits will continue for the nex
65 Dreadnought : Dude, didn't anyone explain to you that the Presidency is about leadership? Leadership is not about deciding what people should do and making them do
66 FlyPNS1 : Republicans constantly talk about what a great leader Ronald Reagan was, yet somehow you never saw Reagan running around begging states to add/keep v
67 Dreadnought : We still had a lot of manufacturing then, although you are right it was already declining. How is it interfering with States' Rights to urge them to
68 Post contains links Pu : You still way out-manufacture China and everyone else is way way behind. It is not so much that manufacturing has declined, it is that manufacturing
69 Post contains links PPVRA : Sorry to bump this up but I found a video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Li0no7O9zmE Greece, here we come!
70 Ken777 : But only in states that didn't vote for them. Which obviously excludes the long term costs of the war. But Republicans are good at ignoring that real
71 Superfly : Excellent video! Excellent analogy! Hope & Change.........
72 dxing : The types of manufacturing jobs leaving the United States at that time were mostly unskilled types, asembly line, and jobs that were being outdated b
73 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, that seems to be exactly what the GOP is doing. Wrong in both cases...
74 zckls04 : The sitting president always has that problem. Actually doing things is more difficult than saying crappy nebulous things like "we're going to put Am
75 dxing : Please, he had two nationally televised speeches to an assembled Congress, his carbon foot print from traipsing around the country speaking about hea
76 Post contains images zckls04 : I think that's pretty much what I said, apart from the carbon footprint nonsense. He has done a crappy job selling the things he has achieved to the
77 dxing : Rather than accusing me of not reading it, why don't you do us all a favor and source your claims as I do.
78 Post contains images Ken777 : Why? When you are able to understand me you automatically disagree. Cutting out duplication is not a problem. Most people would go for that with litt
79 Post contains links zckls04 : http://www.theonion.com/articles/pol...s-believe-obama-is-a-cactus,18127/
80 Post contains links zckls04 : Seriously though: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1701/pol...litics-political-leaders-religious http://pollingmatters.gallup.com/201...ns-beliefs-about-ob
81 dxing : Because that statment did not make any. Evidently it is since this administration ignored it's own commissions findings on the matter. Sure, when you
82 zckls04 : Just a little joke- thought it might lighten the mood. Apparently not.....
83 dxing : John F. Kenndedy being a Catholic. But just like Kennedy, even more don't know what his religion is, that's according to the poll in your link, and p
84 Post contains links zckls04 : The reason is a need to adhere to reality rather than living in some ludicrous utopia where nobody is racist. The world ain't like that yet, not by a
85 Post contains images Superfly : That's because the President can't run on his own record this year. Their strategy is to make the other candidate look like the mean bad guy and play
86 zckls04 : Er- yes. Why does that make the fact that a significant proportion of Americans are anti-Muslim any less significant? Would it be also besides the po
87 DeltaMD90 : Which is why I like Ron Paul but: Definitely gonna vote for Gary Johnson if Paul or Huntsman doesn't get the nomination. These three candidates would
88 Superfly : ...because religion is a lifestyle choice. Race is not. He doesn't have to. His handlers are and all of his friends in the lamestream media are doing
89 dxing : Yet when people like Rev. Wright are pointed out we are told that blacks can't be racist! It's presented as a one sided problem when obviously it is
90 Ken777 : Who was the first President who could lay claim to that? George Washington. But it is the hard right who keeps bringing it up. That dead dog should h
91 Flighty : Paul Krugman's argument is that if you imagine income will be $100,000 per person, then our debt is not *as* bad, although he doesn't conclusively de
92 Post contains links zckls04 : No we aren't. "We are told" is such a lazy argument- you haven't been told anything. I've never heard anybody make that claim apart from a few black
93 Superfly : Doesn't immune him from responsibility to do something about it. That policy had been in place since Clinton was President and it was the Seals that
94 zckls04 : If President #1 says "I've got an idea- why don't we turn our national debt into a huge surplus", then fails to do it, then President #2 comes in and
95 Superfly : I'm happy just as much as you are about Osama Bin Laden being gone. Obama is happy that the Seals got him on his watch. It's not enough for me to vot
96 dxing : Considering he hasn't done anything to turn the economy around in 3 years, his own statement that if he failed to do that he would be a one term Pres
97 zckls04 : That's fair enough- I don't think he has been that great either, and I probably wouldn't vote for him if there was an acceptable alternative. I was j
98 zckls04 : No argument from me there. They dropped the case- that's not quite the same thing. I too disagree with that decision, but since you go from that to t
99 Post contains images Ken777 : I'm sure that there are a lot of Seals who would be real happy to trade in their nasty old lethal weapons for stun guns when going into a terrorist c
100 Post contains links PPVRA : Club for Growth on GOP candidates: only Ron Paul and Rick Perry get good reviews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69_jT...e-means-it&feature=player_
101 Post contains images Ken777 : ANd they are at the bottom of my list now that Cain & Bachman are out.
102 PPVRA : You prefer Santorum to any of those two?
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