This is an animation of the ship's course superimposed over shipping charts, detailing how close the captain got to the Island on his first pass...
Jeez. They can take that exposed rock off the charts now. (Ok, not something to laugh at with casualties. But what a bonehead.)
And as another poster commented in the previous thread, when you turn something that long, everything behind the pivot point will "swing" outside the axis of the turn...which pretty much matches up exactly with where the rock struck on the ship.
Speed Over Ground (SOG) 13.3 knots, Course Over Ground (COG) 358.3 degrees, Heading 10 degrees. Struck the rock at an angle of 11.7 degrees. If my trig is correct, the speed at which the ship was moving toward the rock at impact was 2.69 knots.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 5, posted (4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2809 times:
More video footage coming out of crew telling passengers to return to their cabins and that all is fine ! Other crew were telling other passengers to get into lifeboats .
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
EY460 From Italy, joined Jan 2012, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2737 times:
News are reporting that the hard drive with the security camera recording has been recovered. On board cruise ships there are hundreds of security camera (on some ships also on the navigation bridge). Even though they have no audio, I am sure that they will help the investigation.
Babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3228 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2666 times:
So it seems the ship crashed because the captain was showing off to some blonde lady?
I have got so much respect for the Italians and the way they are handling this. All those divers risking their lives checking cabins under water, the guys in the support ships and helicopters, the harbour masters at Giglio and the people on that island for helping the survivors out. The transparent inquiry.
Everyone has done the right thing in this disaster......except the dishonest captain.
It makes me cringe when I see that video of the crew member asking people to go back to their cabins because everything is alright. When its completely dark and half the ship is moments from being plunged into freezing sea water.
The horror of it all.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 8, posted (4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 7): I have got so much respect for the Italians and the way they are handling this. All those divers risking their lives checking cabins under water, the guys in the support ships and helicopters, the harbour masters at Giglio and the people on that island for helping the survivors out. The transparent inquiry.
Indeed they have done everything possible and the openness of the video footage of the divers and other senior officials has to be praised. I think they realise the worlds eyes are on them and they need to share any information they have.
The most recent revelation is the Captain calling his HQ and saying ''He messed up'' after hitting the rocks.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5110 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 7): It makes me cringe when I see that video of the crew member asking people to go back to their cabins because everything is alright. When its completely dark and half the ship is moments from being plunged into freezing sea water.
To be a bit fair, we now know what the situation was, at the time some crew may not have been, one of the things in disasters is that free and open access is required for "emergency crews / activities" which can be made difficult with pax not being in designated areas, the initial one being their cabins, next in case of damage is their boat / muster stations. So far, all we have heard is that once the official order was given to abandon ship there was no contradiction of the order, confusion of where to go and how the process was managed, but all working towards the same goal.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2569 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
It makes me cringe when I see that video of the crew member asking people to go back to their cabins because everything is alright. When its completely dark and half the ship is moments from being plunged into freezing sea water.
The horror of it all.
Sensationalist claptrap. It's stuff like that being spouted off in the media that is muddying the facts of this incident and will likely cause one or two very wrong convictions in courts.
There is no verifiable time refences to the videos we have seen so far. You can get your last penny that the media will defantely be using things completely out of context to gain maximum sensationalism out of their reports.
There are already passengers coming forward telling us they did not see anything of the chaos and misinformation other passengers have claimed. So who's right, who's wrong?
From what I understand, the basic procedure aboard ship is:
Alarm Raised
Go to your Cabin and put on your life vets, wait for call to muster
Muster, wait for call to boats
Go to the life boats.
These videos we see with crew telling passengers to go to their cabins could very well be from the initial stages with the factual information of what's going on not yet filtered down the ranks. With around 1000 crew on board, there will always be some who are slightly behind on the up to the minute information.
Do these video show a complete picture of the events that evening? Definately not. Should we judge the crew on these videos? No. Should we judge the crew from the reports in the media? Definately not.
I read a paper the other day who's headline for its Concordia article was "Captain was drinking wine at time of impact". Another paper had the headline "Captain ate while ship collided and sank".
So the heck what?! It's a cruise ship, the Captain often entertains passengers at meal times personaly at his table. It's a "tradition" of sorts and is repeated on just about ever cruise ship sailing today.
This insignificant tidbit had been made out to be a contributing factor. Utter, utter gutter trash.
Anything the passengers say must be taken with a big helping of sodium chloride. They are now out to vent anger, get compensation and are doubtlessly going to sensationalise everything and go along the same theme as others. They are watching the media and know what the others are saying, so will repeat the same to get maximum exposure to ensure maximum payout.
Do I blame them? No, not realy. It's fair to say, they did not have a good time of it all. They deserve compensation and will get it. It's now a matter of how much. But should we blindly take everything they say as gospel. No, definately not.
Should we blindly believe everything the media are reporting? No.
One thing confuses me. Over 3500 people safely evacuated. Why were these 30 or so people who are missing/dead, still inside the ship? Did they return to the interior? Were they trapped? If the other 99% of the passengers heard the call to abandon ship, why did they not make their way out?
We know the Captain is automatically responsible for everyone on board his ship, and that technicality will have him jailed for a long, long time. But were these people's deaths a result of his actions/innactions, or their own making?
I read one account from one a band member aboard the ship that his friend went back inside to fetch his violin from his cabin. He was found dead.
Did the others ignore instructions and head back in to collect things aswell?
I'm not saying they did, what I am trying to point out here is that there are many, many variables to contend with in this accident. People panic in situations like these, technology fails in strange ways. It's not fair to simply use the Captain and his Crews automatic responsibility to their passengers, crew and ship as a way to incriminate.
Let's no judge untill the entire truth and facts are known.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2542 times:
The animation in the previous part of this subject is very interesting and educational. It seems to suggest that the first 'hit' was sufficient to cause the ship to flood and do other damage to in turn cause the ship to lose control and then become dead in the water, then driven by currents to it's resting point.
At least one more body was recovered in the ship today, the death toll is now 14.
In the short term and even long term, some changes as to operations and routing of ships are going to be more watched by their owners/operators. We may also see much more training of crew, even of passenger services staff as to being more of a part of emergency and evacuation staff. I also suspect more cruise liners will do emergency and evacuation procedures prior to departure or shortly afterwards rather than do it the next day.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1059 posts, RR: 24 Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2502 times:
Quoting garpd (Reply 11): "Captain was drinking wine at time of impact". Another paper had the headline "Captain ate while ship collided and sank".
So the heck what?!
So the heck what?! No alcohol while in command heck what.
Don’t repeat earlier generations’ mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 15, posted (4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2500 times:
Quoting garpd (Reply 11): Why were these 30 or so people who are missing/dead, still inside the ship? Did they return to the interior? Were they trapped? If the other 99% of the passengers heard the call to abandon ship, why did they not make their way out?
AFAIK, some crewmembers were working in the engine and laundry rooms, which got flooded very fast by the initial collsion.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2494 times:
Quoting cmf (Reply 14): So the heck what?! No alcohol while in command heck what.
Realy? Is that a rule? Or are you just expressing an opinion?
Can you link me to where it says a Costa Captain may not enjoy a glass or two when off duty?
If we are to believe the papers as gospel, like most here are doing, then the Captain was on the bridge steering the ship manually while showing off to a lady, but at the same time he was several decks below drinking wine at a bar and also at the same time at a table eating dinner.
This man surely does know how to keep busy or he has two twin brothers.
Or, more likely, the papers and media are printing/distributing crap to sell papers, get website traffic and more viewers.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1059 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2465 times:
Quoting garpd (Reply 16): Realy? Is that a rule? Or are you just expressing an opinion?
Can you link me to where it says a Costa Captain may not enjoy a glass or two when off duty?
Why the need for a rule? It is common sense not to be under influence when operating vessels or you are to operate a safety station if needed.
But since you asked for a rule. I do not know what Italian maritime law says. I know several that says that if you're involved in operating a vessel or may be called to perform safety operations as part of your tasks on board then you can't consume alcohol or other intoxicating substances.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 18, posted (4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2436 times:
Quoting cmf (Reply 17): Apparently you do not have problems with a captain drinking alcohol while in charge of the ship. What about heavier drugs, fine with them?
Not every country is the US of A.
From what I know most civilian ships (and several navies) allow reasonable consumption of alcoholic drinks while off duty.
A guy I knew who used to work on a cargo ship as an engineer told me that they were allowed two bottles of beer a day, which had to be drunk on the spot in the mess (handed over opened by the steward) to prevent a sailor from hoarding the drinks to go on a binge later.
It is also a time-honoured tradition that the captain of a cruise ship (or other long distance passenger ship) will entertain selected passengers for dinner. This obviously includes having a glass of wine.
On the other hand I suspect that most shipping lines would frown about an employee getting drunk on duty.
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 40 Reply 19, posted (4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2419 times:
Here's the thing that confuses me:
You see the fairly large gash in the ship in EA CO AS's post (No.4, above); this is obviously where the rock hit and I'd have assumed that water flowed in here, causing to list in that direction; going deeper as the weight of water brought it down. So, why it is visible now? Surely this section of torn fuselage should be at the bottom of the boat? Or was there another, deeper gash on the other side?
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 19):
Here's the thing that confuses me:
You see the fairly large gash in the ship in EA CO AS's post (No.4, above); this is obviously where the rock hit and I'd have assumed that water flowed in here, causing to list in that direction; going deeper as the weight of water brought it down. So, why it is visible now? Surely this section of torn fuselage should be at the bottom of the boat? Or was there another, deeper gash on the other side?
However the ship turned to Port after the impact, this would induce it to heel over to Starboard.Once water collected on that side the boat would keep going over.
darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 189 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2386 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 19):
You see the fairly large gash in the ship in EA CO AS's post (No.4, above); this is obviously where the rock hit and I'd have assumed that water flowed in here, causing to list in that direction; going deeper as the weight of water brought it down. So, why it is visible now? Surely this section of torn fuselage should be at the bottom of the boat? Or was there another, deeper gash on the other side?
I was wondering that too. But I think it's something along the lines of the tear actually relieving volumes of water on that side of the ship, whereas on the other, the compartments continue to flood and accumulate water, without any large hole to flow back out of, especially if a large part of the tear is above the waterline. I think past a certain point, the percentage difference really doesn't have to be much for the ship to list, and as this happens, the effect is only exacerbated, and capsizing becomes inevitable.
Just my theory though. I was wondering same as you earlier.
Quoting garpd (Reply 11): Let's no judge untill the entire truth and facts are known.
I think I feel the same as you. I'll admit the case does not look for the Captain, but again, that's from a very comfortable distance, and of course, a zero liability perspective. To me, the only thing that looks absolutely bad for this man is that he keeps changing his story. But again, that could very well also be the result of being involved in a traumatic incident and getting the very unambiguous message that his employer fully intends to download their liability to him as well. Most people would have a very tough time dealing with that, and few if any would come out looking good.
It is as you say. We shall have to see what the actual facts are and what the Italian equivalent of the NTSB has to say about it. Until then, it's all speculation.
Enmity is equal to Wrath x The Speed of Fright Squared
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4871 posts, RR: 21 Reply 23, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2341 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 19): You see the fairly large gash in the ship in EA CO AS's post (No.4, above); this is obviously where the rock hit and I'd have assumed that water flowed in here, causing to list in that direction; going deeper as the weight of water brought it down. So, why it is visible now?
There is a large tear, but I have seen no reports of a list to port - left - the side of the ship with the gash. So far I have to assume the emergency pumps and water tight door closures contained that water.
In the details of the investigation, we might find there was a list to port at some point, and an idea how much water came aboard and how much they were unable to pump out.
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 21): However the ship turned to Port after the impact, this would induce it to heel over to Starboard.Once water collected on that side the boat would keep going over.
No the ship was turning to Starboard at the time of impact and immediately after impact. It never made a sharp turn to Port.
It appears that the ship remained basically stable with minimal to no list until it drifted down and impacted the rocks under water near where it rests today.
When the ship was blown up against the rocks, and unable to go farther, the starboard side of the ship was torn apart. The underwater photos show massive penetration of the ships hull on the starboard side.
Times below are close - within a minute or so - based on the track shown in the link on the second post on this thread.
At 20:45 the ship hit the rock in the middle of a arcing turn to starboard. It looks to me like they started the turn about 15 seconds late. They would have missed the rock had they started earlier, or had they not had to turn so sharply which kicked out the port rear quarter so much.
The ship glanced off the rocks and makes a very shallow turn to port. It immediately slows from over 18 knots to under 10 knots in 3 minutes. It passes its current position coasting north at 20:50/20:51 at about 5 knots forward speed.
The ship appears to be trying to turn to starboard again as the stern kicks out to the left.
At 21:12 - approx 27 minutes after impact the ship is dead in the water. The pods/ rudders are apparently hard over to point the nose to starboard. The stern is pointed toward the shore.
The wind is starting to blow the nose of the ship around, and to the southwest.
At 20:20 - the ship is beam to the wind, moving southwest at between 0.5 and 1.5 knots - apparently not under power.
At 21:49 - one hour and four minutes at least after the impact with the rocks - the ship grounds near the harbor with the starboard side hitting the rocks.
We know from video that the ship had lights at this point and with no noticable list to starboard.
At 21:57 - almost 8 minutes after grounding - the ship comes to a near stop with a 5 to 10 degree list to starboard. We can see from videos that starboard lifeboats are being launched.
The ship continues to pound and grind against the rocks over the few hours before the damage on the starboard side and the increasing flow of water into the hull bring the starboard rail under water.
The final evacuations of people lowering themselves down the now exposed port side hull occur about 3 to 4 am according to the infrared video time stamps I've seen.
This wasn't a 'quick' event. It took several hours to develop.
It took the ship 30 minutes from the impact until the ship stopped forward movement.
It took another 30 minutes before the ship grounded against the shore.
It took another 30-40 minutes before the first rescue boats arrive.
The tape with the Captain talking to the port officials on the mainland was apparently made about 23:45 - three hours after the contact, two hours after the grounding and at least an hour into the evacuation.
At that point - they are still successfully able to launch lifeboats from both the starboard and ports sides of the ship, so the list is not yet critical.
EDIT - the times I listed above are from the animation based on the automated tracking. I do not know if they are UTC or local times. I also do not know if the time of the conversation with the port officials was UTC or local either. Currently and at the time of this incident local time was UTC +1
EY460 From Italy, joined Jan 2012, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2287 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15): AFAIK, some crew-members were working in the engine and laundry rooms, which got flooded very fast by the initial collsion.
Luckily, no crew-members from the engine room or laundry are amongst the victims or missing. One of the musician who perished in the accident has been reported returning to his cabin to collect his violin.
Quoting garpd (Reply 16): Can you link me to where it says a Costa Captain may not enjoy a glass or two when off duty?
I believe that the rules for alcohol and drugs are the same within all companies parts of Carnival Corporation. On another Carnival Corporation cruise line the limit for alcohol is 0.8 (0.5 within US waters). Going above these limits (even off duty) is a dismissible offence and on board there are breathalysers to measure it. I know that there are some are companies which are "dry" and no alcohol is allowed at all.
For drugs there is a zero policy. Carnival Corporation employs an external company in charge of testing the crew for drugs. They are flown regularly to the company's vessels throughout the world and the Captain in only notified the day before. If traces of any drugs are found in a crewmember the crewmember is dismissed, no matter if the drug was taken before joining the ship or the company.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 23): The ship continues to pound and grind against the rocks over the few hours before the damage on the starboard side and the increasing flow of water into the hull bring the starboard rail under water.
I believe your explanation is very close to reality.
25 EY460: Sorry, I forgot a zero. The limits are 0.08 and 0.05.
26 garpd: Ok, so glass of wine with a meal is not a problem, unlike theb claims from the papers. Which goes to prove my point about not believing everything yo
27 OA260: News reports coming in that another body of a Women believed to be that of an unregistered Hungarian national ! This just gets more and more interesti
28 zanl188: What changes might we see in ship design/construction/equipment as a result of this accident? - Lifeboats that can be launched at hi list angles. Davi
29 OA260: Costa seem to have upset the passengers who survived offering them 30% off their future cruises with Costa for life only if they promise not to take l
30 vc10: I cannot see that being too popular with a lot of passengers as many spend the nights in other peoples cabin , and perhaps they would not want it kno
31 zanl188: Lol, well like I said it has privacy concerns. The location function would have to be kept off except for testing and emergency. Bigger problem would
32 EY460: Just a quick update on the Costa Concordia: - the death toll is now standing at 15 (6 bodies still to be identified); - today the fuel removal operati
33 garpd: So he was on the job and doing something (admittedly not the best!)? Unlike the media reports which have him running around like a headless chicken a
34 na: Imho a very good, simple and cheap idea. Maybe already small, rugged all-metal wheels with ca.20 cm diameter directly bolted to the boats could do it
35 rfields5421: It is pretty clear to me from everything we've heard so far that the Captain was not on the bridge during the planned close pass to the island. That
36 rfields5421: US LAW SUIT TO BE FILED From CNN (fair use) http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/24/world/...y-cruise-main/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
37 BMIFlyer: Ah yes here we go - money chasing lawyers
38 PanHAM: law suit - for US passengers I suppose. For European passengers European law resp. the laws of the srsiding country apply. Passengers will get their v
40 PanHAM: well, i think they offered to some passengers already 30% off for life, on ny future cruise. The least you can expect is a free ride plus full compens
41 garpd: Most reasoned response to all this so far!
42 EY460: I don't know it this is common on other countries but here the report of the captain's interrogation is available on line word by word. The Captain c
43 zanl188: Is it possible that the ship was so automated that there was simply no one to report the flooding? Or that perhaps the one or two crew immediately av
44 na: A german woman who left late when the ship had already capsized and had to swim for safety said she wasnt afraid to swim because there were many boat
45 rfields5421: Thanks for the information - I assume it was in Italian, because I haven't been able to find that detail in my searches. However, I'm now very confus
46 EY460: On large cruise ships like this one there is always an Engine Control Room manned 24 hours a day. There are usually two engineer on watch and one or
47 EY460: From the interrogation report of the ship's safety officer Martino Pellegrino: - on board the Costa Concordia there were two Staff Captain: Roberto B
48 rfields5421: So the stories about him being away from an official duty position are completely false?
49 EY460: Yes, he admitted being on the bridge and conning the ship and this has been confirmed by other officers.
50 garpd: Yet more evidence that the media have gotten it wrong and are demonising this man.
51 janmnastami: Consumers' associations and Costa Cruises have reached an agreement. Costa will refund to each passenger 3,000 euro for the cost of the cruise and 11,
52 garpd: I think that's fair and not overly excessive. I expect some to sue for more though.
53 ltbewr: Of course those who were seriously injured and the families of those who died who will still seek much greater compensation in the courts and should
54 OA260: Thats fair enough . I guess its for them to decide and then a judge to decide.
55 777: Huge emphasis today on the Italian press about a shocking article wrote on the German magazine Der Spiegel where the journalist says something like "c
56 ltbewr: Here is an article that discusses that this may be the or one of the largest insurance losses as to shipping as well as about the possible salvage ope
57 br076: " [ Wow, that is not a very tasteful comparison.
58 canoecarrier: Coming from Der Spiegel that doesn't surprise me. They don't exactly have a great reputation when it comes to reporting aviation incidents either.
59 zanl188: Did Costa Concordia have propulsion pods? I understand one of the advantages of the pods is that engines/generators can be placed in non-traditional
60 EY460: No, Costa Concordia has traditional propulsion. Yes, with pods in theory you could place the generators everywhere on the ship, but for several reaso
61 OA260: A 17th body has been recovered by divers on Deck 6 .
62 BilgeRat: EY460 - thanks very much for your input in this thread, after reading some pretty wild and uninformed speculation from others about how this all happe
63 EY460: Hi BilgeRat (nice nick!). That sounds interesting and exciting. I hold a Class 1 (Master Unlimited) Certificate of Equivalence Competency but I only
64 na: Queen Mary 2 has the same configuration as well, the (auxiliary, only for high speed) gas turbine is located in the large with casing below the funne
65 BilgeRat: I'm doing my Class 1 (Chief Engineer, Motor Unlimited) next year. I'm hoping to move onto short sea, possibly Ro-Ro ferries as I've had enough now of
66 EY460: It's difficult to say if the ship would have stayed afloat in those conditions. There are too many uncertainty. Costa Concordia had on the navigation
67 MD11Engineer: With all the ship´s main generators being out of action, would the ballast water pumps still have worked anyway? I´m sure that the emergency genera
68 EY460: Yes, bilge pumps and fire pumps are supplied by the emergency generator, but some of them could have been located in the flooded spaces, so those wou
69 MD11Engineer: My kudos to these officers and the rest of the crew, which did their best to get everybody off the ship. As for the injured officer, he obviously cou
70 EY460: He took part to the evacuation till the very end and he couldn't get out after the ship tilted (OK, he wasn't very young). He said that while he was
71 BilgeRat: The exact details vary from vessel to vessel but as a general rule of thumb the following will be powered from an emergency generator: - Emergency li
72 MD11Engineer: But these systems won´t work if the main engine / generator rooms have been sliced open like a can of food. Jan
73 rfields5421: Looking at the track data, it appears the ship grounded because it had no power. The speeds it traveled after stopping heading north average about 0.
74 OA260: A very well made documentary on Channel 4 tonight in the UK/Ireland. It was really well done and not accusing or sensationalist. It had unseen footage
75 LGWflyer: I am watching the repeat now on C4 +1. It is interesting seeing the footage captured by the passengers, must have been scary.
76 OA260: Indeed and the 3D graphics showing exactly what happened was very interesting.
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