dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 1, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2169 times:
Wow....RIP...if it hasn't happened yet, it's not reported as such on ESPN, it's coming shortly. He's in bad shape and has asked to see his family according to spox.
He got the short end of the deAl at the end with penn state. He wa a great coach and was loved by his players.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 466 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2154 times:
I just read that. He has been the face of Penn State Football for as long as I can remember. I hope they keep his legacy a good one and not the scandal.
Typing on an iPhone, so quoting function not working well, but:
He didn't get the short end of the stick at all. He deserved to lose his job over what happened.
That said, it is a shame that things had to end that way, and I have no real dislike for the man. I hope that the successes of his career will get their recognition along with the recent black marks. RIP.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2079 times:
Per a check at Huffingtonpost.com, the reports of his death are premature. The family reps have refuted the reports of CBS Sports, that he is not dead (yet) and ask for privacy. He is dealing with apparent complications from his lung cancer and earlier today was reported to in 'grave' or 'serious' condition. At his age, with his ongoing health problems and all the emotional tumult he has faced in the last 2 months or so, it is not improbable that he is very close to the end of his life.
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8583 posts, RR: 31 Reply 9, posted (4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2074 times:
Now it gets better, family says he's still alive. Makes me laugh as several of my friends who work in the news business are at the airport literally trying to decide whether or not to get on a plane and head to State College.
This should be good.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2066 times:
KTLA (a local TV station in Pennsylvania) is reporting that initial reports that former Penn State football coach Joe Paterno had reportedly passed away Saturday night are now being retracted - after a Paterno family spokesman shot down the rumors.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
CRJ900LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 61 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1867 times:
Oh im not saying he didnt know how to coach, he had some decent teams, its the things he did behind the scenes that are questionable, if he would have come clean and told the right people then fine, but he didn't and thats what gets me. Why hide something like that?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17876 posts, RR: 59 Reply 15, posted (4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1864 times:
Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 17): its the things he did behind the scenes that are questionable, if he would have come clean and told the right people then fine, but he didn't and thats what gets me. Why hide something like that?
I don't know, and that's certainly a dark chapter in the story of his tenure at the school. But he was there for a long time, and I would hope that he'll be remembered more for the good things he did than for the bad. And there were a lot of good things - he screwed up with the Sandusky case, no doubt, but people do make mistakes, and those shouldn't wipe away the rest of their body of work.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
dragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3844 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1824 times:
Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 17): its the things he did behind the scenes that are questionable, if he would have come clean and told the right people then fine, but he didn't and thats what gets me. Why hide something like that?
Maybe this will answer some questions. Here is a interview Joe Paterno gave to the Washington Post earlier this month about the scandal.
Stabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1768 times:
Not sure how I feel about this news. On one hand he was one of the greatest coaches in college football history, and contributed immensely to the sport. On the other hand, he tarnished the pride of an entire University, it's allumni, students and staff. It doesn't matter that Sandusky did it. JoePa was the identity of not only the football team, but PSU itself.
How can someone know his assistant molests young children, and yet brush it under the rug and continue as normal. Mentioning it to campus security is not enough if they do not take action. To me, that shows great arrogance on his part.
My heart goes out to the victims and they Penn State community.
Actually he went and told the athletic director. I think he didn't follow up because he said he didn't know exactly how to handle it and was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1691 times:
Yes, it will be sad to see his death, but no one lives forever. Very possibly Paterno would not have lived or been able to participate in recruiting for new players for next year. I do think a series of circumstances occurred, much like sometimes with air crashes, that led to this terrible situation for all including the abrupt dismissal of Joe Paterno.
The nature of sexual assault of children is one where the victim is put into circumstances that can be exploited by the attacker. Often, as with Sandusky for example, they are authority or respected persons who can and will intimidate their victims from reporting them or find those who are ignorant of what is happening is wrong. Then when a person is a victim they have such shame that they cannot tell a parent or authorities, perhaps never or only do so years later and in turn. Apparently at Penn State (and elsewhere where Sandusky did his terrible acts) there was no or inadequate rules or enforcement of them as to how adults and minors are to be protected from sexual assault. Many schools, churches, youth groups have strict polices where adults cannot be alone with children, another adult must be in the same room or close by to reduce the risks of sexual assault. Children and their parents must also be educated as to actions of potential sexual assaults.
Another part of this issue is how institutions - whether they they be colleges, schools, religious, youth groups or businesses will hide any scandal or illegal acts and not do the right actions. They will not report them to police or prosecution authorities or the police or prosecution, perhaps due to politics or fear of offending powerful persons or the difficult of prosecuting such alleged crimes, do not do their job. Indeed Paterno had the power could have told Sandusky - who was a guest, and not an employee in 2003 - that he was banned from all campus facilities until and unless a proper investigation occurred. All parties, the laws must do their job and protect victims first and not worry about how it wil play in the media, affect the fund raising from alumni. Now Penn State is facing a major cut in such fund raising due to their terrible choices in doing their jobs.
Paterno himself was too old and had become too powerful in his position until he embarassed the school and the board had to ditch him to save their sorry butts. I suspect too they had long wanted to ditch him and now had the 'gotcha' where they could. He was of an age that he did not or could not understand the idea of sexual abuse of children. He was on a god-like pedestal where he could do no wrong although he could have followed up more as to the allegations and the lack of actions by the schools' police and the board. He also covered up for players who had committed crimes for years, keeping them on the team with some very obvious exceptions. All schools should put major responsibility on all coaches and AD's as to if something wrong happens and in fear of losing their jobs if they fail. They should also be paid a lot less and not put onto an untouchable pedestal. There should also be a cap on how long by age, perhaps at age 75, for one to be in such a job.
Despite the much good Joe Pateno did for the school, including returning much of his income to facilities, attracting money from alumni, putting out good football and affecting positively 1000's of men (and women). Now his legacy will be more about how he handled a sexual assault.
dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1567 times:
It's reported now...official.
He was destroyed by this scandal, and I disagree with Mir...I believe the guy turned it over to the university to handle. Was he trying to damage any children? No..the damage to them was done. The person responsible was removed from that position and the leadership at the university who dropped the ball let him down as well. Could he have done more? Sure..he could have screamed to the high heavens but that's bot where he was from. He wanted to keep the damage down to all concerned. Did he do nothing? No. He followed their procedure and reported what he was told. He didn't see it, the person who did didn't call the police....and then later decided to blame others. Was he hung out to dry by the trustees? Yes. Was it a tragedy that mars one of the greatest coaches in college history? Yes.
Either way....thousands of young men benefitted from his leadership, coaching and mentoring. I hope he does rest in peace.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17876 posts, RR: 59 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1544 times:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 22): Could he have done more? Sure..he could have screamed to the high heavens but that's bot where he was from.
May not have been where he was from, but it's what he should have done. He had an incredible bully pulpit as a result of his status, probably had a direct line to the governor's office, etc. If he had raised hell about it, you can bet that something would have been done.
I don't think he's a fundamentally bad person, but he did let the victims down, and more importantly let the fundamental principles of justice in this country (when you commit a crime, you get punished for it) down, and he (properly) lost his job for it. That's, as far as I'm concerned, the end of it - he's not a child molester, he's a decent man who happened to make a very bad decision. And while that decision will be remembered, his other accomplishments should be remembered as well.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1531 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 5): He didn't get the short end of the stick at all. He deserved to lose his job over what happened.
yep
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
Paterno himself was too old and had become too powerful in his position until he embarassed the school and the board had to ditch him to save their sorry butts. I suspect too they had long wanted to ditch him and now had the 'gotcha' where they could. He was of an age that he did not or could not understand the idea of sexual abuse of children.
That last line... nailed it!
He came from a time where that kind abuse was dealt with by a random "Don't do it again.." from the cops to abusive parents being ordered to counseling .. and that's it. Very little prosecution back then -
..but more importantly, Joe was gonna be asked how well he knew his friend Sandusky? And to provide an honest and detailed answer to that -- well, let's say .. look at your own best friend (if you have one).. I guarantee you know things about his wife doesn't. I'll leave it at that.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20): He was on a god-like pedestal where he could do no wrong although he could have followed up more as to the allegations and the lack of actions by the schools' police and the board.
Exactly, he could have put this thing to bed in a flash...if he viewed it as most do today.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20): He also covered up for players who had committed crimes for years, keeping them on the team with some very obvious exceptions
Absolutely, and that's the choice of 'how much muscle do I put into this?' .. proving he DID NOT always 'follow procedure' .. he (as do many coaches) bend, break the rules for favorites or certain situations, it's no secret at all. This abuse thing was something that 'because of how Joe had grown up and been exposed to it... it simply didn't rise to the rivaled urgency of an endangered preferred player'. ..PLUS his friend was at the center of it - and Joe took an 'I don't wanna know about it attitude. Then it came home to roost.
Sorry Joe, but you could have handled this much much better.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1223 posts, RR: 5 Reply 25, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1587 times:
Let me ask all of you posting negatively about Joe Paterno something. What did he do to deserve to be fired? Nothing that Sandusky did happened while he was on Paterno's staff - he left in 1999. He still worked at the university, just not with Paterno. Now...once Paterno found out what was going on, he did what he was required to do under Pennsylvania laws. He informed the athletic director, and I believe the campus police. Could he have done more? Yes. Was he bound by law to do more? No. Some say that Paterno was so shocked at the information that he didn't know how to react.
Why is Paterno being made the scapegoat (even in death)?
Why must people remember him for this scandal (that he wasn't even part of), instead of all the contributions he made to football, the university, and his community?
Stabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1559 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 25): Now...once Paterno found out what was going on, he did what he was required to do under Pennsylvania laws. He informed the athletic director, and I believe the campus police. Could he have done more? Yes. Was he bound by law to do more? No.
Just because he sought it out to the extent of the law doesn't mean he couldn't have done more. His morals should have made him ensure Sandusky was removed.
Just saying "Welp, I told the university about his crimes, their business now" doesn't cut it when children are being abused. No doubt he knew that one day someone would find out and this would explode in his face. I'm sure he could have gotten the county or state police involved, or even the Feds.
I'm not trying to sling mud at the man. As you said, his contributions to college football are many. However, to say he had no part in this, in my opinion, is a stretch.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 28, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1537 times:
Quoting Stabilator (Reply 27): Just saying "Welp, I told the university about his crimes, their business now" doesn't cut it when children are being abused.
I guarantee you there is nothing that Paterno could have reasonably done in 2002 that the people on this thread would agree was "enough" in 2012.
You guys need to understand that people had been trying to throw Sandusky in jail since 1999 -- well before Paterno was even remotely involved. Yet you think that Paterno's going to the school administration instead of the DA (who is now dead) would have made THE difference?
These arguments are wholly illogical, and simply rooted in emotion -- child rape is about the worst crime out there, and therefore, someone big must go down.
Well congratulations -- this misappropriation of blame from Sandusky to Paterno literally has killed Paterno.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 24): Joe was gonna be asked how well he knew his friend Sandusky?
As we discussed at length months ago, you have no source other than the speculation on an obscure blog that Paterno and Sandusky were friends. I told you then that I believed you were wrong. Since then, it has been reported that in fact, "they were not close."
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 29, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1361 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 28): Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
Joe was gonna be asked how well he knew his friend Sandusky?
As we discussed at length months ago, you have no source other than the speculation on an obscure blog that Paterno and Sandusky were friends. I told you then that I believed you were wrong. Since then, it has been reported that in fact, "they were not close."
Sandusky retired in 1999 and had not worked with Paterno, who said the two were not close, in three years. He said their relationship was "professional, not social," during the three decades they worked together and at the time did not remember the last time he had spoken with him.
First off, you're a lawyer.. and you don't think for 1 second anything in that article was crafted for media/public release.
Secondly, I don't know of anyone - particularly a coach and his Offensive or Defensive Coordinator - side by side for 30 years..but they aren't close. Yet Sandusky was his hand appointed 'heir apparent'. For you to sit there and say you are buying everything printed in that article tells me you are among the naive lawyers on the planet. Just what did you expect Joe Paterno to admit to in an interview..go ahead tell me.
Wrong doing? Some faults? In a case like this? You cannot be serious. But as I said when we discussed this weeks ago... you clearly know absolutely nothing about football culture - and by believing what you just quoted - again - proves it. Your Offensive or Defensive Coordinator is your trusted confidant, it is a competitive cutthroat businessand those two positions can only be filled by someone you trust and trust blindly.... and you do get to know very very well. The University doesn't appoint those people..you do.
Reading that article left me with one impression - distance, distance and more distance..
..just as I expected.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 30, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1310 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 25): What did he do to deserve to be fired?
He had first hand knowledge of a crime but didn't report it to the police. Only stopping at the next person in his chain of command.
Quoting D L X (Reply 28): I guarantee you there is nothing that Paterno could have reasonably done in 2002 that the people on this thread would agree was "enough" in 2012.
Wrong. The first second he knew a crime had been committed (child rape) he would have called 911 and turned in the person who did it, things would be so much different. He would have been held in much higher regard. There is a special place in hell for Sandusky, no doubt. But, Paterno could have had his legacy held up high if he had done the right thing.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 31, posted (4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1284 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 30): Wrong. The first second he knew a crime had been committed (child rape) he would have called 911 and turned in the person who did it, things would be so much different.
...instead he sat around wondering if it was possible to rape a man.
There is a life sized statue and park to him, bigger than one for war vets that is now visited by fans as a shrine, leaving flowers in memorial to him. His name is on the Library, do you remove it as others of shame have had happen to them?. Do you have a huge memorial ceremony for students and alumni at the stadium? Do you do nothing? Should there be a private funeral only attended by his extended blood family or open it to the community, perhaps having him 'lying in state' at the school's arena? Indeed, it is a challenge as to how to acknowledge Joe Paterno passing considering his tainted legacy.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 34, posted (4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1160 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 29): First off, you're a lawyer.. and you don't think for 1 second anything in that article was crafted for media/public release.
Translation: "I've made up my mind, and I will not accept anything that Joe Paterno said as true."
If that translation is accurate, then we do not have much to discuss.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 29): Secondly, I don't know of anyone - particularly a coach and his Offensive or Defensive Coordinator - side by side for 30 years..but they aren't close.
That is what the Washington Post said. Your only counter evidence is an obscure blog. You choose to believe your blog over the Washington Post because you choose not to believe anything Paterno says. You in your mind have decided, and will not be swayed by other facts. Please tell me that I am wrong.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 30): He had first hand knowledge of a crime but didn't report it to the police.
That is not quite true. He reported it to the VP in charge of the police.
I hate to relitigate this entire argument yet again (especially in the face of all the grave dancing we've seen in the last 2 days), but you absolutely have to separate the truth from the made up facts. The ENTIRETY of testimony on this case can be found here:
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 35, posted (4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1090 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 34): Quoting BN747 (Reply 29):
First off, you're a lawyer.. and you don't think for 1 second anything in that article was crafted for media/public release.
Translation: "I've made up my mind, and I will not accept anything that Joe Paterno said as true."
If that translation is accurate, then we do not have much to discuss.
Better translation, you're extremely gullible to real life situations masked by public relations interference,
Quoting D L X (Reply 34): That is what the Washington Post said. Your only counter evidence is an obscure blog. You choose to believe your blog over the Washington Post because you choose not to believe anything Paterno says. You in your mind have decided, and will not be swayed by other facts. Please tell me that I am wrong.
That's your best case forward? You're must be joking!
You'd readily buy into a 'press kit packaged response' over sportsworld bloggers?
Who do you think spends ALL their time in the sports world - dedicated sports observers? Or or some WaPo sensationalist - er reporter?
I see the same thing in Entertainment circles, the MSM's coverage of a story and coverage by Hollywood blogger. One provides far greater insight that the generalized one-size-fits-all coverage.
Same goes for the Legal world, a case can be covered by the MSM and by a dedicated legal blogger, if I want better insight beyond the 'elementary cut'..I'm go for the blogger.
One thing I did when working for a Film Studio was work directly with the head of Publicity and head of Marketing - responsible for EPKs , electronic press kits, press junkets and prepping talents for media pieces. You develop a new perspective of how 'news' comes together or 'what people see or are told. And you want me to forgo all that exposure and go back to the days of when I was super naive and see it they way you do along with eating up anything they put infront of you? Not a chance in hell.
I know a polished prepped 'client' when I see one. You call go ahead and can it recalcitrance, but just as I see your weakness in understanding what goes on beneath the surface of the sports world , I see it here as well, your lack of picking up on a cultivated and contrived response designed to influence a certain outcome. Stay green my friend.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 36, posted (4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1087 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 34): That is not quite true. He reported it to the VP in charge of the police.
I tried to read the testimony. Dusgusting. What I read on pages 7, 8, and 9 tell me that Paterno knew about two instances and told one person. That one person (Curly) did nothing. I believe it is page 9 that says any instances of child abuse such as this will be reported to CPS within 48 hours per Pennsylvania law. That didn't happen, according to testimony of victim 7, IIRC. Paterno knew about two incidents and said nothing beyond one person. Why celebrate his life to the degree they are celebrating it? He won a bunch of football games. He also let some children down by allowing them to be raped. Let's not forget that, either.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 37, posted (4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1054 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 35): You'd readily buy into a 'press kit packaged response' over sportsworld bloggers?
YES.
Sports writers do almost zero investigation, especially outside the world of sports. Sports writers broadcast rumor and innuendo as if it were verified.
You just called me gullible, but I would suggest you reconsider your depiction if you are relying on sports writers to get to the bottom of a story, especially one outside of sports.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 35): You call go ahead and can it recalcitrance, but just as I see your weakness in understanding what goes on beneath the surface of the sports world , I see it here as well, your lack of picking up on a cultivated and contrived response designed to influence a certain outcome.
I'm not sure what any of this means. But I would suggest leaving the ad hominems out of it. Intelligent discussion is already severely lacking in this story.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 36): What I read on pages 7, 8, and 9 tell me that Paterno knew about two instances and told one person.
Read it again. That is not at all what the report says.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 36): He also let some children down by allowing them to be raped.
Again, there is NO testimony to that effect. None.
Yes, the testimony is disgusting and hard to read. However, that does not give one license to not read it and then fill in the gaps with conjecture.
Back to BN747, this is the problem with the sports writers that you revere. They spread information based on the rumors that they had heard, and reported them as facts. Then other people reported those facts as facts. Then other people reported those facts as facts. All-in-all, the world has convicted this man based on a game of telephone. The facts are in the grand jury presentment that I posted. They are not on some blog.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 38, posted (4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1042 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
You'd readily buy into a 'press kit packaged response' over sportsworld bloggers?
YES.
Sports writers do almost zero investigation, especially outside the world of sports. Sports writers broadcast rumor and innuendo as if it were verified.
You just called me gullible, but I would suggest you reconsider your depiction if you are relying on sports writers to get to the bottom of a story, especially one outside of sports.
It's a whole other culture and you'll never ever.. get it.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
You call go ahead and can it recalcitrance, but just as I see your weakness in understanding what goes on beneath the surface of the sports world , I see it here as well, your lack of picking up on a cultivated and contrived response designed to influence a certain outcome.
I'm not sure what any of this means.
You totally get it.
Joe's answers for that link you provided were 'prepped for that interview'..simple enough?
Whether you wanna agree or not, that's a different matter. But that's just the way things are done with celebrities. As a lawyer, you should know that 'no lawyer worth his salt' would permit a client to ramble off whatever his wishes...and Joe was lawyered up on what? The 2nd day? Plenty of time to prep a script.
No sir, I do not understand what you are saying. I'm trying to, but you're not very clear.
It seems to me that you have made up your mind, and any statement by Paterno that does not conclude the way you have concluded is simply a lie. You're entitled to your beliefs. And I'm entitled to forcefully state that your belief is misinformed because it is based on poor reporting, which you have admitted, is from a sports blog.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 40, posted (4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1007 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 38):
You totally get it.
No sir, I do not understand what you are saying. I'm trying to, but you're not very clear.
It seems to me that you have made up your mind, and any statement by Paterno that does not conclude the way you have concluded is simply a lie.
And you appear to believe that anything the media says or what he says was the absolute truth.
Quoting D L X (Reply 39): And I'm entitled to forcefully state that your belief is misinformed because it is based on poor reporting, which you have admitted, is from a sports blog.
As I am entitled to forcefully state your egregiously erroneous in drawing such a conclusion because I'm not going solely on the reporting of a sportsblog.
They only the sportsblog has done is report that the two are close friends. You disagree because the WaPo hasn't said so and Joe's last words denied it.
I base my beliefs on them being closer than Joe wanted to admit on my 1st hand knowledge and understanding of the general relationships between coaches and their lieutenants - in this case a lifelong coordinator.
I'm a bit more ahead of the curve on you on this because I know that MSM has had it's lunch taken away from it by new web media - it's a whole new world. Print media is dead..get over it. More people are getting more in-depth reporting, complete story details from insiders than they are from distant traditional media sources. Belittle it til your heart's content, but the world is moving in a different direction as to how information is distributed and from whom.
And again, you do get it.. you can't name a lawyer on this planet who let a client under a cloud of this nature just say 'whatever he feels'... well, you might. But no lawyer I know would permit it. Joe's last words on the matter were sculptured and crafted, just because you want to buy it as wholesale truth...doesn't mean I have to. I already know how people react when caught up in bad situation like this - the majority of the time 'they lie'. Joe was lying his ass off, trying to escape culpability (for the harm to those kids) to the very end.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 41, posted (4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 976 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): Again, there is NO testimony to that effect. None.
Page 7. The incident with Victim 2 was seen on Friday, Paterno was notified on Saturday and Paterno told Curly on Sunday. Curly, in turn waited A WEEK AND A HALF to meet with Schultz. In the end, nothing was done about it. NOTHING! Boys were still raped and Paterno knew and did nothing. Had Paterno did the right thing and gone straight to the police, this would have stopped with Victim 2.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
He was destroyed by this scandal, and I disagree with Mir...I believe the guy turned it over to the university to handle. Was he trying to damage any children? No..the damage to them was done. The person responsible was removed from that position and the leadership at the university who dropped the ball let him down as well. Could he have done more? Sure..he could have screamed to the high heavens but that's bot where he was from. He wanted to keep the damage down to all concerned. Did he do nothing? No. He followed their procedure and reported what he was told. He didn't see it, the person who did didn't call the police....and then later decided to blame others. Was he hung out to dry by the trustees? Yes. Was it a tragedy that mars one of the greatest coaches in college history? Yes.
Either way....thousands of young men benefitted from his leadership, coaching and mentoring. I hope he does rest in peace.
After reading your post, I think I'd have to agree with that. He even said he wished he'd done more with this scandle than what was done.
In any case, JoPA was, and forever will be, legendary. Rest in peace.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 45, posted (4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 948 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 41): Page 7. The incident with Victim 2 was seen on Friday, Paterno was notified on Saturday and Paterno told Curly on Sunday.
You are not reading the report correctly.
"Victim 2" is the John Doe name given to one of the victims. Victims 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are not even mentioned on the same page as Paterno. You are mistaken.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 41): Had Paterno did the right thing and gone straight to the police, this would have stopped with Victim 2.
You are again mistaken. The Victims are not described in chronological order.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 46, posted (4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 45): Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
Had Paterno did the right thing and gone straight to the police, this would have stopped with Victim 2.
You are again mistaken. The Victims are not described in chronological order.
Oh please, I'm sure he had everything from anonymous phone calls, notes all kinds of hints, golf course chatter and other odd clues. It's just something he didn't see as 'critically important'.
In his defense, he came from a time where - well this kind of thing was a daily occurrence. Beating your wife? everyone does it, what's the big deal? Abusing your kids? so what. Sadly, that was America Joe Paterno grew up in.. he simply did not evolve with age in the sensibilities department.
Everyone's heard that grouchy old man who constant grumbles "people these days are such wusses" .. THAT guy? Comes from a such a period, no sensibilities whatsoever. When you hear younger people spew that..just chalk it up to simple case of being 'dangerously clueless'.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 47, posted (4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 892 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 45): "Victim 2" is the John Doe name given to one of the victims. Victims 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are not even mentioned on the same page as Paterno. You are mistaken.
Right. So, there was just one *ONE* victim Paterno was told about in this affidavit. And, no, I did not see any dates for any of the victims. I was looking for the name "Paterno." What really bothers me is, these are the victims we know about. How many others are too scared to come forward? How many victims were there after Victim 2 that Paterno could have saved by simply going off the flow chart and calling the police right that second for Victim 2?
Not only that, even with these victims we know about that were abused multiple times, Sandusky is still wandering around free as anything. Would that happend to any regular man working at any store, shop, or mill? No. Any regular man does not have money and can not influence authorities the way Sandusky can.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 48, posted (4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 873 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 47): What really bothers me is, these are the victims we know about. How many others are too scared to come forward? How many victims were there after Victim 2 that Paterno could have saved by simply going off the flow chart and calling the police right that second for Victim 2?
Seb, you do realize that in 1998, the mother of one of the victims had the police sting Sandusky? They called him on the phone, and got him to admit the rape on tape. In 1998. And they still weren't able to convict him. Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
You see, you're doing what all the other detractors are doing - promote Paterno to god-like status, then slam him for not being a god.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 49, posted (4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 852 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 48): Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
He has power and money that the woman in 1998 did not. Sandusky has power to keep all those other victims quiet.
Quoting D L X (Reply 48): promote Paterno to god-like status, then slam him for not being a god.
I never thought he was a god or god-like. I don't think college sports programs should be held up on a pedistal above the education. Everyone else saying how great Paterno was are fools, frankly. He was a coach for so long is why he has so many wins. Paterno was not evil. He just didn't have a brain for anything else but college football.
This just took my breath away:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 46): In his defense, he came from a time where - well this kind of thing was a daily occurrence. Beating your wife? everyone does it, what's the big deal? Abusing your kids? so what.
Let's add to that: Catholic priests have been abusing children for centuries. It's just what happens. C'est la vie. So what? Let's just ignore it because it will happen anyway. That is not a defense. That is an excuse to let a crime happen. And that does not make it right. Paterno allowed a crime to happen. Oh, well. Forgive and forget. It happens. Just let it go because he was a winning football coach. Let's hold him to a different standard and forget his role in the rape of children because he has a statue, wing of a library, and is beloved.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 52, posted (4 months 6 hours ago) and read 764 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 48): Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
What really bothers me is, these are the victims we know about. How many others are too scared to come forward? How many victims were there after Victim 2 that Paterno could have saved by simply going off the flow chart and calling the police right that second for Victim 2?
Seb, you do realize that in 1998, the mother of one of the victims had the police sting Sandusky? They called him on the phone, and got him to admit the rape on tape. In 1998. And they still weren't able to convict him. Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
If that's true ..and you're the lawyer, why don't you tell us why THAT didn't work..and while you're contemplating it, feel free to go back and revisit the conversation you remember oh so well, particularly the part about the coach's influence and the cops.
So why didn't it work?
Quoting seb146 (Reply 49): Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
In his defense, he came from a time where - well this kind of thing was a daily occurrence. Beating your wife? everyone does it, what's the big deal? Abusing your kids? so what.
Let's add to that: Catholic priests have been abusing children for centuries. It's just what happens. C'est la vie. So what? Let's just ignore it because it will happen anyway. That is not a defense. That is an excuse to let a crime happen. And that does not make it right. Paterno allowed a crime to happen. Oh, well. Forgive and forget. It happens. Just let it go because he was a winning football coach. Let's hold him to a different standard and forget his role in the rape of children because he has a statue, wing of a library, and is beloved.
Don't think for a second that I'm giving Joe a pass.. I was just stating his possible frame of mind.
If brought a caveman back to life, he's still gonna think like someone from 50,000 years ago. Joe was from an era where priest were raping at will..I'm sure he knew all about that and he just never bother to advance his views as did his age.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 12883 posts, RR: 30 Reply 53, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 668 times:
Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 13): I wonder if him getting fired and everything else that happened accelerated his cancer and put him in the position he is in now.
I am one of those people who believe that, among a million of other folks. I think he died of heartbreak (yes, you CAN die from that....) and the scandal really put him in a very difficult position. I think Penn State handled his termination inappropriately. People cannot do that to folks who are old and very fragile.
Quoting Stabilator (Reply 17): On the other hand, he tarnished the pride of an entire University, it's allumni, students and staff.
I disagree. I think Penn State tarnished itself with the help from the former President and the Former Athletic Director who chose to do nothing.
Quoting Stabilator (Reply 19): Interesting the University procedure would be anything other the going to the authorities.
The campus police ARE the authorities. They have the same powers as a normal cop.
On a side note, have you guys found it odd that the NCAA has not said a word about the scandal as of late? Are they not doing an investigation or something? Something tells me that the NCAA is not interested in Penn State, but they are going after other coaches who are participants in situations similar to this (IE: a couple basketball coaches are under investigation for molestation including their respective schools.....)
I also question why the whistle blower, Mike McQ-something, is still on the job. He should be fired as well if they terminated JoePa. If JoePa was required to report it to police, then Mike McQ should have done the SAME thing. But he didn't. That is grounds for termination. And eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth logic applies. Fire the President, the AD and JoePa, then Mike McQ should also be fired.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 12883 posts, RR: 30 Reply 55, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 628 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 54): Under Pennsylvania's whistle blower laws, he can't be.
That law is pathetic, and should be done away with in these circumstances. He should be fired as well. He, too, had a duty to go to law enforcement if Penn State did not fulfill their obligation. But he had every opportunity to do so and chose not to. Shame on him!!!!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5701 posts, RR: 27 Reply 56, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 607 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 48): Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
Because JoePa was the reason the taped confession didn't work. The police didn't want to smear his good name, so they didn't do their job with the confession. The prime reason this was hidden for so long was to protect JoePa's reputation, as well as PSU's.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 57, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 602 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 56): Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
Because JoePa was the reason the taped confession didn't work. The police didn't want to smear his good name, so they didn't do their job with the confession.
What the flying freak?!
How does that make any sense at all? Especially considering that JoePa was not involved in any way in this matter until 4 years after the confession?
Besides that obvious problem, it's a pretty high charge you've levied on the State Police that they wouldn't investigate a string of rapes if it would give PSU a bad rep. You need to come with some good evidence of that if you're going to throw that smear around.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5701 posts, RR: 27 Reply 58, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 598 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 57): How does that make any sense at all?
It makes sense because people revered JoePa and the football program. No one wanted to be the one that brought it all crumbling down. And you really believe JoePa had no idea why Sandusky very abruptly retired in '99?
Quoting D L X (Reply 57): Besides that obvious problem, it's a pretty high charge you've levied on the State Police that they wouldn't investigate a string of rapes if it would give PSU a bad rep.
Then why weren't the previous allegations acted on? The 1999 case was enough evidence to prosecute...yet nothing was done.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 59, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 597 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 58): It makes sense because people revered JoePa and the football program.
Utter bull. Plain and simple. It is the most ridiculous idea that the State Police would not investigate a child rape spree to protect JoePa. At this point, it is clear that you will accept ANY reason to slam JoePa as a good one if you accept this one.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 58): Then why weren't the previous allegations acted on?
I do not know, and neither do you. That doesn't make your idea that the State Police were protecting Paterno, who had nothing to do with the matter in 1999, any less insane.
USPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 60, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 593 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 55): That law is pathetic, and should be done away with in these circumstances. He should be fired as well. He, too, had a duty to go to law enforcement if Penn State did not fulfill their obligation. But he had every opportunity to do so and chose not to. Shame on him!!!!
It doesn't really matter at this point--just about the entire staff was not retained when the new coach took over. Only three coaches kept their jobs on the staff. Just about a total housecleaning. BTW, McQueary took administrative leave upon the initial charges and never coached again after that.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 61, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 581 times:
Okay, this...
Quoting D L X (Reply 59): It is the most ridiculous idea that the State Police would not investigate a child rape spree to protect JoePa
...and this...
Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
Seb, you do realize that in 1998, the mother of one of the victims had the police sting Sandusky? They called him on the phone, and got him to admit the rape on tape. In 1998. And they still weren't able to convict him. Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
Both can not be true.
Like matter and anti-matter, both cannot occupy the same space at the same time..one has to go,
So which one of the above is true? Mind you, both inputs are yours.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 62, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 578 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 61): So which one of the above is true?
I think you can figure out how both sentences fit together.
One says that the State Police would not hide a rape spree to protect Joe Pa. The other says that Joe Pa would not have been able to make the police act.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 63, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 573 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 62): One says that the State Police would not hide a rape spree to protect Joe Pa. The other says that Joe Pa would not have been able to make the police act.
As you like say BS -
Quoting D L X (Reply 48): Seb, you do realize that in 1998, the mother of one of the victims had the police sting Sandusky? They called him on the phone, and got him to admit the rape on tape. In 1998. And they still weren't able to convict him. Why do you think Paterno's action would have been the cure all when the taped confession wasn't?
YOUR words there say ...the cops got a prosecutors dream confession - on tape. And weren't able to convict Sandusky... (I had no idea there was even a trial)... if there was no trial, then Mr. Lawyer, what happened to this 'dead-to-rights' evidence.
Your other statement says the cops don't hide.cover up these actions but pursue them . Something doesn't add up...
Quoting BN747 (Reply 63): ..the cops got a prosecutors dream confession - on tape. And weren't able to convict Sandusky... (I had no idea there was even a trial)... if there was no trial, then Mr. Lawyer, what happened to this 'dead-to-rights' evidence.
First, I never said there was a trial. I said that the state did not convict him.
As for the evidence, it is in the grand jury presentment, which I believe you have said you read.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 63): Your other statement says the cops don't hide.cover up these actions but pursue them
Nope. That is not what I said. Go read it again. I will not argue with someone who puts words in my mouth.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 65, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 565 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 64): Quoting BN747 (Reply 63):
YOUR words there say
My words are clear and I stand by them.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 63):
..the cops got a prosecutors dream confession - on tape. And weren't able to convict Sandusky... (I had no idea there was even a trial)... if there was no trial, then Mr. Lawyer, what happened to this 'dead-to-rights' evidence.
First, I never said there was a trial. I said that the state did not convict him.
To say he was not convicted...suggest a trial took place. Being an attorney, I'd expect you to phrase the occurrence accurately.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 12883 posts, RR: 30 Reply 66, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 538 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 60): BTW, McQueary took administrative leave upon the initial charges and never coached again after that.
He was placed on Admin leave by Penn State. He did not elect to do this on his own will.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 68, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 520 times:
I can't believe I'm jumping into this hornets nest. Oh well here it goes. DLX I appreciate your take on this so far, and I'm sorry that you seem to be the only voice defending a great man. Likely tens of thousands of young men were educated and mentored to be outstanding citizens in the PSU system in part because of the leadership of Paterno.
I also (to the degree I can without being involved in a similar situation) understand the emotions other people have because this is a child rape case, except for those that are vilifying JoPa I ask you this, what would you have done if you think JoPa didn't do enough?
Paterno went to his superiors at PSU, who were the head of the campus police department, reported what he was told by his assistant coach and at that point...what do you expect him to do? BN wants to link this to a catholic priest scandal, but what if a priest went to the police and said that this was going on and they did nothing? That's exactly what we're talking about here.
#1 He couldn't take the law into his own hands
#2 Had reported it to the police
#3 Sandusky was not a PSU employee anymore
#4 These allegations had been going on for years before Paterno even knew about them
I agree 100% with what Phil Knight said at the responsibility for how this was handled doesn't lay at JoPa's door, it should be at the people who he reported too.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 70, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 510 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 69): I'm not alone though. I've had a few people private message me saying they agree, but they're afraid they will be labeled a pedophile sympathizer.
Publicly, I don't think you are. JoPa was a good man.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 72, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 499 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 68): I'm sorry that you seem to be the only voice defending a great man.
How great can a man who enables the rape of children possibly be?
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 68): Paterno went to his superiors at PSU, who were the head of the campus police department, reported what he was told by his assistant coach and at that point...what do you expect him to do?
Do you really think that this "great man" who inspires hundreds of idiots to gather on his front lawn wouldn't be listened to if here were adamant enough? Who was more powerful that Paterno?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17876 posts, RR: 59 Reply 73, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 494 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 68): for those that are vilifying JoPa I ask you this, what would you have done if you think JoPa didn't do enough?
Hold a press conference, say what happened, apologize on behalf of the program, and say that you hope that those accountable will be brought to justice. Then the police will definitely do something - if they don't, they'll look like they're failing JoePa, and they'll look like they're soft on child rape.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 74, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 487 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 68): BN wants to link this to a catholic priest scandal
Since you won't answer my 1st question, then consider this... and using your false analogy towards me.
What is the difference between what has occurred at many Catholic churches and what occurred at PSU?
The victims of each.. could easily be exchanged among locations and the negative and damaging effects remain the same.
But since you opened that door...go ahead, walk thru it.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 70): Quoting D L X (Reply 69):
I'm not alone though. I've had a few people private message me saying they agree, but they're afraid they will be labeled a pedophile sympathizer.
Publicly, I don't think you are. JoPa was a good man.
Really... do you now, I'd like to see you try telling that to one of the many victims he could have done something to help - aside from the bare minimum that he did do.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 466 posts, RR: 4 Reply 75, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 471 times:
I wholly agree with D L X and canoecarrier. JoePa did what he was supposed to do in that situation. What Sandusky did was very wrong and he should be punished to the full extent of the law for what he did, but even then with a "taped confession" three or four years prior to this the authorities did nothing to him. Sandusky is the scum here, not Joe.
Let's get real here for a second, JoePa repoeted a "second hand sighting" (he did not witness the incident himself) to the authorties. If you reported something that "someone else" told you to the cops, wouldn't you think that they would take care of it? And even if the cops had questions, how would you answer them [you did now witness the incident, so you do not have any facts concerning the incident]. McQuery should be the one on the hot seat here, not Joe, since he is the one that witnessed the incident. I don't think it can be explained any more clearly than that to all the "haters" out there.
There are several on here that obviously just "hate" JoePa and no matter what anyone with some "facts" on the matter have to say they will not change their way of thinking towards Joe, a really "great" man and football coach.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 76, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 467 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): Quoting D L X (Reply 69):
I've had a few people private message me saying they agree, but they're afraid they will be labeled a pedophile sympathizer.
That's because they are pedophile sympathizers.
No, we're just not emotionally driven illogical people.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): Who was more powerful that Paterno?
Obviously, the board of trustees and the 2011 grand jury.
Quoting Mir (Reply 73): Hold a press conference, say what happened, apologize on behalf of the program, and say that you hope that those accountable will be brought to justice.
No. You would never do that. You would never interfere with a police investigation like that.
Put it this way: if you had been told that a coworker raped another coworker, you would not hold a press conference to expose the criminal.
When in your lifetime have you ever heard someone give a press conference to rat out a criminal?
You are holding Paterno to an impossible standard that you would not have accepted for yourself.
Quoting Mir (Reply 73): But in practice, he was the superior
No he wasn't. This oft-repeated refrain is simply the suspension of disbelief that Paterno detractors need to fill in the logical gap. Since they are aware that their argument does not make sense here, they have to plug the gap by making up this new rule: Paterno was omnipotent.
jamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 734 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 465 times:
There are a lot of naive people on here with regard to Paterno. I think he definitely knew far more than he lets on.
As for Paterno, I don't necessarily think he was an evil man. I think he was selfish and acted to protect his football program instead of the children who were victims of Sandusky, but most people, even good ones, find it difficult to make the right decision when faced with difficult consequences. I definitely don't think he is saintly as many people seem to regard him.
There are a lot of naive people on here with regard to Paterno. I think he definitely knew far more than he lets on.
Try incredibly naive!
They are letting their emotions and sympathies to drown out common sense.
There's too much 'trying to apply perspectives of ones 'everyday world' to the world of 'high profile collegiate sports' ..and they're thinking things there play out exactly as it does in theirs - and it doesn't...not even close. Sorry, but all the parts and players are not equal - but victims and damage? Are.
I'm actually surprised at the numbers here who do see thru it..and actually realize that Paterno could have done more, because that is the absolute truth. And 'a good man' does exactly that, he does more than the accepted bare minimum in a situation of this magnitude..
Quoting jamincan (Reply 77):
As for Paterno, I don't necessarily think he was an evil man. I think he was selfish and acted to protect his football program instead of the children who were victims of Sandusky, but most people, even good ones, find it difficult to make the right decision when faced with difficult consequences. I definitely don't think he is saintly as many people seem to regard him
Agreed he was not an evil man, but he was woefully ignorant of the fact that 'the times had change - from the age of him being a young boy/man (seeing child abuse) to the times of today 'being aware of the damage of the same type abuse'..he did not see it as a priority as he saw protecting his school and someone close to him. Because if he did, one of the last two or both would have taken 2nd fiddle and dropped in priority behind the charges of child abuse.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 79, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 450 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 76): No, we're just not emotionally driven illogical people.
You're defending a guy who enabled a rapist and sympathizing with a pedophile. How anyone can not have wanted to see Paterno be thrown under a bus for what he did, or rather did not do, is beyond me.
If someone under you used the program you're in charge of to farm molestation victims for decades you're going to get asked some tough questions. Paterno got the tough questions and had no answers other than the ruminate on whether it was possible to rape a man.
As if protecting a rapist and sweeping molestation under the rug were not enough, Paterno was also exposed as being the biggest hypocrite in college sports. The man who for all his career built an image of old school discipline, not having teams of thugs, forcing players to go to class, and making men was covering up for something far more sinister. In a world where grade changing, no show jobs, and free tattoos are considered scandals, Paterno was covering for acts far beyond all of the fraudulent academics and free rims in the world. Ironically, the former players who showed up to defend that sorry excuse for a man also exposed him for not being nearly as good at making upstanding citizens as he would have led us to believe.
The simple fact is that Joe Paterno got far better than he deserved.
He's the tenured head football coach at a top program. Happy Valley is a company town that is all about Penn State, and Penn State is mostly about football. He was a legend, revered even after being exposed for what he was. For him to now be portrayed as simply a beleaguered bureaucrat that nobody would listen to is simply ridiculous and not true. The hoards of child rape supporters who gathered on his lawn after his firing are a testament to that. When JoePa said "jump," Penn Staters said "how high."
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 80, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 445 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 71): WTH did you get that'sa what BN wants? Explain yourself...???
Quoting BN747 (Reply 74): What is the difference between what has occurred at many Catholic churches and what occurred at PSU?
Quoting BN747 (Reply 52): Joe was from an era where priest were raping at will..I'm sure he knew all about that and he just never bother to advance his views as did his age.
Quoting D L X (Reply 76): No. You would never do that. You would never interfere with a police investigation like that.
Put it this way: if you had been told that a coworker raped another coworker, you would not hold a press conference to expose the criminal.
It is not the place of the citizenry to take the law in their own hands.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
You're defending a guy who enabled a rapist and sympathizing with a pedophile.
Paterno was described by the Pennsylvania AD as a "cooperating witness" the people who failed to report what was going on were the PSU officials (not including Paterno).
The grand jury noted that Paterno did report the allegations to Schultz who was the ultimate boss of the PSU Police. For all we know, after doing so himself, Paterno may have encouraged McQuery (who says he witnessed Sandusky raping a boy in 2002) to go to the police with his story. If Paterno knew that McQuery had gone to the police, I can see Paterno saying to himself, “It’s in the right hands, now. If Sandusky needs to be arrested, the police will handle it.” In fact, anything Paterno could have done to interpose himself in the situation could have been looked at as obstruction.
In a similar situation we all probably would have done the same thing, call the police and expect that it was handled. If you call 911 on campus it's likely you would have been forwarded to the campus police.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 81, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 442 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 80): Quoting BN747 (Reply 71):
WTH did you get that'sa what BN wants? Explain yourself...???
Quoting BN747 (Reply 74):
What is the difference between what has occurred at many Catholic churches and what occurred at PSU?
Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):
Joe was from an era where priest were raping at will..I'm sure he knew all about that and he just never bother to advance his views as did his age.
Quoting D L X (Reply 76):
No. You would never do that. You would never interfere with a police investigation like that.
Put it this way: if you had been told that a coworker raped another coworker, you would not hold a press conference to expose the criminal.
It is not the place of the citizenry to take the law in their own hands.
Thank goodness Good Samaritans don't follow your lead.
Erase their works and take a good hard look at the social landscape...it'd be horrific.
The reply to BMI727 is all rubbish, this is simply a feeble attempt to whitewash a very tainted act of cowardly conduct.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 82, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 432 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 81):
Thank goodness Good Samaritans don't follow your lead.
The night that the McQuery saw what he did in the showers at PSU, Paterno was at home. Do you expect him to go down and shoot the guy? Absolutely no relation to "Good Samaritans".
Quoting BN747 (Reply 81): The reply to BMI727 is all rubbish, this is simply a feeble attempt to whitewash a very tainted act of cowardly conduct.
Ok then, what do you think McQuery should have done? He still has a job and he was the one that witnessed the alleged act.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 83, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 432 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 80): Paterno was described by the Pennsylvania AD as a "cooperating witness" the people who failed to report what was going on were the PSU officials (not including Paterno)
Paterno was a PSU official, and for all intents and purposes, the most important PSU official. You cannot make a case that a guy whose lawn is crowded by idiots when he is fired has so little clout that administrators and police won't listen.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 80):
In a similar situation we all probably would have done the same thing, call the police and expect that it was handled
...and then follow up. Especially if you are the most powerful person in the town. And maybe have a word with the subordinate who was witnessed raping a child.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 84, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 428 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79): You're defending a guy who enabled a rapist and sympathizing with a pedophile.
And that sentence right there is the emotion laden drivel that I'm talking about.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79): If someone under you used the program you're in charge of to farm molestation victims for decades
And this sentence does not describe the actual facts. By 2002, Sandusky was not under Paterno. He had been fired years earlier.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79): Paterno got the tough questions and had no answers
What were these tough questions, and their answers? I don't recall reading them in the grand jury presentment.
These are fantasy facts, BMI727.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79): He's the tenured head football coach at a top program. Happy Valley is a company town that is all about Penn State, and Penn State is mostly about football. He was a legend, revered even after being exposed for what he was.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 85, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 429 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): Paterno was a PSU official, and for all intents and purposes, the most important PSU official.
So important he couldn't save his own job? Your comment is opinion not fact. You say that people Paterno's age were used to "an era where priest were raping at will..I'm sure he knew all about that and he just never bother to advance his views as did his age." I'd argue that he came from a time where molestation of a child was unthinkable. You are correct that he was old and that things were different when he was my and your age then they are now. As Coach K said, "The cultures that he’s been involved in both football-wise and socially, have been immense changes and how social issues are handled in those generations are quite different."
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83): ...and then follow up. Especially if you are the most powerful person in the town. And maybe have a word with the subordinate who was witnessed raping a child.
Regardless of any of this, Paterno was given second-hand information, which he reported to his superiors. In his testimony, McQueary says he gave the full, detailed account to Curley and Schultz who were the head of the campus police but that he did not do the same for Paterno. He was not told that a rape had been witnessed. Curley and Schultz were are the ones charged with a crime, Paterno never was.
Why did he get fired in the first place if everything Paterno did was in accordance with procedure? The university did what they had to do as soon as it could no longer be kept under wraps.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): You say that people Paterno's age were used to "an era where priest were raping at will..I'm sure he knew all about that and he just never bother to advance his views as did his age."
I didn't say that.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): As Coach K said, "The cultures that he’s been involved in both football-wise and socially, have been immense changes and how social issues are handled in those generations are quite different."
That's an excuse and cop out of the first order.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 87, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 416 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): Regardless of any of this, Paterno was given second-hand information, which he reported to his superiors.
This is correct.
But people here want to condemn Paterno for not spreading hearsay.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): In his testimony, McQueary says he gave the full, detailed account to Curley and Schultz who were the head of the campus police but that he did not do the same for Paterno.
This is also true, as reported by the grand jury presentment, which I hope everyone on this thread has read.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): He was not told that a rape had been witnessed.
This may be true. The grand jury presentment is very shaky on this point, suggesting that Paterno was told that there was horsing around. (He reported it anyway.)
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85): Curley and Schultz were are the ones charged with a crime, Paterno never was.
This is true. The grand jury indicted Curley and Schultz for the crime that BMI727 and others are attributing to Paterno.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 86): Quoting D L X (Reply 84):
By 2002, Sandusky was not under Paterno. He had been fired years earlier.
...and yet Sandusky was still around raping kids.
Now, I want you to explain, using logic and not emotion, why you believe that Sandusky was around because of Paterno. Cite sources if you can.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 86): Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
So important he couldn't save his own job?
Why did he get fired in the first place if everything Paterno did was in accordance with procedure?
Because of the emotion of the media lynch mob that came after him.
FACT: this story was broken by sports reporters.
FACT: sports reporters report not the facts, but whatever they've heard on twitter.
FACT: sports writers more than any other group operate on yelling, rumor, and shock value, not accuracy. (Think Steven A. Smith.)
FACT: many pieces of misinformation were spread about the case, ginning up controversy.
PROBABLY TRUE: you have at least one Michael Jackson song on your iPod. (Does that make you a child molestation sympathizer?)
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 88, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 405 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): Now, I want you to explain, using logic and not emotion, why you believe that Sandusky was around because of Paterno.
Sandusky was fired in 1999. But somehow he managed to get caught diddling a little boy in their showers in 2002. How many people get to continue to use the facilities for "horsing around" after being fired?
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): The grand jury indicted Curley and Schultz for the crime that BMI727 and others are attributing to Paterno.
There are many people responsible for the scandal and who did not do what they could or should have. And Paterno is absolutely one of them. He is not an innocent old man who got railroaded, he is an enabler who get far better than he deserved. If you want to feel bad for someone, feel bad for the kids that got raped.
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): FACT: this story was broken by sports reporters.
So?
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): FACT: sports reporters report not the facts, but whatever they've heard on twitter.
They are the ones reporting things on Twitter. And it is now basically a legitimate news outlet.
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): FACT: sports writers more than any other group operate on yelling, rumor, and shock value, not accuracy. (Think Steven A. Smith.)
Ever turn on Fox News? And ESPN has been shilling for Paterno as much as they've been shilling for Tim Tebow. ESPN isn't media, they're marketing, and they love confused old men as much as anyone.
Quoting D L X (Reply 87): PROBABLY TRUE: you have at least one Michael Jackson song on your iPod.
Nope.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
SA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 2808 posts, RR: 24 Reply 89, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 405 times:
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