"Arizona is my home, always will be. A lot has happened over the past year. We cannot change that. But I know on the issues we fought for we can change things for the better. Jobs, border security, veterans. We can do so much more by working together. I don't remember much from that horrible day, but I will never forget the trust you placed in me to be your voice. Thank you for your prayers and for giving me time to recover. I have more work to do on my recovery so to do what is best for Arizona I will step down this week. I'm getting better. Every day, my spirit is high. I will return and we will work together for Arizona and this great country. Thank you very much."
Seems like she waited about a year too long to resign. If over a year into her two year term, she is unable to continue, she was certainly unable to continue when it happened.
Stabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1423 times:
Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Seems like she waited about a year too long to resign. If over a year into her two year term, she is unable to continue, she was certainly unable to continue when it happened.
I agree with you there. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell her to resign though, many people would think it's too politically incorrect.
I hope she finds something enjoyable to do now. Such an awful thing to happen to someone.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1391 times:
Personally I believe that she is a year too soon. Reality is that she can show up to vote if it is critical, but with the TP running the GOP in the House there is no reason for someone not on the too far right to slow up for every Cantor Event.
There is also a need for standards to be set for elected officials who are attacked because they are a Member of Congress. It is our responsibility as a Nation, IMO.
As for Giffords, I can only wish the best for the Lady. Her attacks, at the shooting and after, are pathetic.
JetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1526 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1388 times:
I am a bit surprised by the timing, but it would be good for her to focus on her recovery full time. I would not be surprised if she continues to make good strides over the next year or two to think about running again
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 4, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1378 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2): Personally I believe that she is a year too soon. Reality is that she can show up to vote if it is critical, but with the TP running the GOP in the House there is no reason for someone not on the too far right to slow up for every Cantor Event.
If she's nothing but a warm body that will simply check "D" on her votes, she is not fit to serve. Terrible tragedy, absolutely. But that does not mean she should stay.
Looking at this completely apolitically, she had no business staying on the job when she clearly could not perform it.
propilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 512 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1320 times:
May Allah (God) bless her and give her glad tidings of peace, I know how hard it could be on someone recovering from a terrible tragedy, if I were in her shoes I would most likely resign too. She did the right thing and made her best choice for herself and family. What a kind, loving, sweetheart-ed person she really is! I wish her the best.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8202 posts, RR: 48 Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1316 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2): There is also a need for standards to be set for elected officials who are attacked because they are a Member of Congress. It is our responsibility as a Nation, IMO.
You want to force/bully her into sacrificing her health, maybe even her life?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1309 times:
It is unfortunate that Ms. Giffords cannot properly represent her district due to her current disability and need to give full attention to her recovery. She is doing the right thing and not letting party politics keep her in office and deny her district has a person in office.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1273 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 4): If she's nothing but a warm body that will simply check "D" on her votes, she is not fit to serve.
As opposed to some of the raw meat eaters who simply check "TP" on their votes? I consider Giffords as far more fit to serve than them.
Quoting D L X (Reply 4): But that does not mean she should stay.
Quoting D L X (Reply 4): she had no business staying on the job when she clearly could not perform it.
Just because she is having problem with some gross and fine motor skills does not mean she xis brain dead and cannot give reasonable thought to an issue. We do, in this country, have a ten dance to look at the physical person and automatically assign a mental status. Stephen Hawking ring a bell?
Would be you be so eager to see the back of her if she was active in the Tea Party?
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6): You want to force/bully her into sacrificing her health, maybe even her life?
No. You'll never see me arguing against the government money spent rehabbing a sitting Member of Congress after an assignation attempt. Nor will you see me trying to push him or her out of office after an assignation attempt. (And you won't see me arguing to cur funds for the VA because the "Job Creators" ( ) want another tax cut.
Giffords rehab these days is focused on speech and gross/fine motor work. She can still evaluate and can still come to her own opinions. Better than the Speaker who has to change course every time the TP members break wind.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2053 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1254 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Just because she is having problem with some gross and fine motor skills does not mean she xis brain dead and cannot give reasonable thought to an issue.
I personally believe most incumbents are brain dead and they haven't gone through what Gabby has by any means.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1237 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
she had no business staying on the job when she clearly could not perform it.
Just because she is having problem with some gross and fine motor skills does not mean she xis brain dead and cannot give reasonable thought to an issue. We do, in this country, have a ten dance to look at the physical person and automatically assign a mental status. Stephen Hawking ring a bell?
Agreed, it's bad precedent to play out infront of certain members who can be heartless enough as it is.
Let some degree of humanity be maintained in that cesspool known as Congress.
After a horrific situation like what she went thu.. the attitude of "Ok, sorry that happened, but let's get a new body in here'
is an appalling one.
It's bad enough that large portions of Congress are willing to turn their backs on the struggling unemployed, slash benefits for those who need it most and can least afford it. Introducing a new attitude of 'you've been shot, we feel bad, but you're useless...' is a freeway to becoming less humane by a group who already are near that circle of thought (as long as they're livelyhoods remain intact).
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 9): I personally believe most incumbents are brain dead and they haven't gone through what Gabby has by any means.
Exactly, give these knuckleheads the greenlight to be even more heartless...we've seen how nutty some politicians get...keep them from adopting an additional cruel streak to use when they see fit.
I personally think her evaluation period was fair and just ...and apparenty so do the people of her district.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1188 times:
They have been playing her video on Sky News this evening. Brave women and I wish her well . She is better off out of the circus that is American politics anyway
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1131 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 10): the attitude of "Ok, sorry that happened, but let's get a new body in here'
is an appalling one.
That's the necessary attitude when it comes to officials. Next man up. There are tons of procedures and safeguards in place to follow through on exactly that notion: the government and any position in it is bigger than any person.
Far from being appalling, that idea is why the government works.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1116 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12): Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
the attitude of "Ok, sorry that happened, but let's get a new body in here'
is an appalling one.
That's the necessary attitude when it comes to officials. Next man up. There are tons of procedures and safeguards in place to follow through on exactly that notion: the government and any position in it is bigger than any person.
Far from being appalling, that idea is why the government works.
The Presidency, the vice Presidency..yes.
The US Congress has demonstrated with 100s of members being ill, incapacitated for extended periods of time..I see no need to change it. To adopt that attitude .. could open the door for anything to happen. If Congress worked doggedly every working day in the same ultra hurried attitude they exemplified when prosecuted Bill Clinton? Oh hell yes,
I'd be all for it
- BUT they don't. They are slower than that old woman who always seem to be at the crosswalk at the moment when you're in the biggest hurry. They deserve no such expediency for them to play their silly numbers game. Plus the people should decide that (replacement pace)..not those bums. They do nothing but measure the sand in their re-election hour glass.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1048 times:
Two interesting paragraphs from the WaPo today:
Quote:
Before handing in her resignation to House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (R), Giffords has some unfinished business. She plans to attend President Obamaās State of the Union address on Tuesday. And she will finish the meeting that was āinterrupted,ā her staff said in a statement, by gathering with some of the survivors at a private event in Tucson.
and
Quote:
Before the shooting, Giffords had been a rising star in the Democratic Party, a centrist politician and talented communicator who championed stronger border security, veteransā rights and solar energy. In its aftermath, she became a national symbol for the effort to restore civility to American politics, following a brutal 2010 midterm election in which even Giffordsās race turned into a bitter battle.
Lawmakers set aside their partisan divisions to sit together for last yearās State of the Union address ā before the legislature dissolved again into gridlock over the budget.
A centrist - looks like prime target to the right wing nuts. Good communicator? Bullet took care of that or a while, but not forever.
Believes in border security.
And taking care of Veterans. Maybe she has some insight being married to a Naval officer, but it is nice to see.
And now she has become "a national symbol for the effort to restore civility to American politics". appearing to be alone when standing in a room overcrowded with Tea Party. First the TPers need to understand what "civility" really is.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 945 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14): First the TPers need to understand what "civility" really is.
And that can not happen when adopting an attitude of 'oops injured man/woman ..toss 'em out ' launching the free-for-all fight to get their replacement in.
The grace and respect over the period of her recovery is IMHO.. the most civil respectful method to handling these matters. That place is a mad house as it is, I for one am frankly impressed that nearly all of them (Congress) maintained their manners.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 940 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 15): Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
First the TPers need to understand what "civility" really is.
And that can not happen when adopting an attitude of 'oops injured man/woman ..toss 'em out ' launching the free-for-all fight to get their replacement in.
Where do you and Ken777 draw your line? Surely, if she were in a coma all this time, would you agree that she should have stepped down a year ago?
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 935 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 16): Surely, if she were in a coma all this time, would you agree that she should have stepped down a year ago?
She wasn't in a comma.
Her challenge these days isn't being able to understand the issues that the nation needs to address. It is the need for ongoing rehab, including Speech therapy, which is why she is resigning.
Be know well that I and others believe that it is HER decision to make. Just like Mark Kirk, a Republican Senator, has the right to determine if he can continue at his pace, or if he needs to leave office in order to focus on rehab. Until he makes that decision he can continue in office, especially if he can vote - and understand that vote.
Reality is that Gifford can have regained ALL her reasoning abilities and mental capacity without having fully re-established all the links for speech and movement - both gross & fine motor. I watched a news story the other day (after the announcement) where doctors talk about major improvements in her ability to speak. The one year mark is important (and probable the one she personally was looking at), but there can well be major improvements in each of the upcoming years.
We may well see a time when Giffords returns to the political stage with the same vigor as she had before the assignation attempt.
Easy dude, I'm just asking the question to see where you stand. I know she is not in a coma. But what if she were? Where do you stand then?
I'm trying to find out how much of a brain disability one would have to have before you said she should resign.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): Her challenge these days isn't being able to understand the issues that the nation needs to address.
Do you have inside information that we do not have?
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): Be know well that I and others believe that it is HER decision to make.
I disagree. It is her constituency's decision. And apparently, as much as they like her, they decided that she should not seek reelection. This could have something to do with her decision to resign.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): Reality is that Gifford can have regained ALL her reasoning abilities and mental capacity without having fully re-established all the links for speech and movement - both gross & fine motor. I watched a news story the other day (after the announcement) where doctors talk about major improvements in her ability to speak. The one year mark is important (and probable the one she personally was looking at), but there can well be major improvements in each of the upcoming years.
My understanding of brain injuries (having dealt with my grandmother's brain injury from a stroke) is that you reach a plateau after 6 months. Before 6 months, improvement can be dramatic. After 6 months, and there is little hope for any further significant improvement.
It would be fantastic if your thinking was right and my thinking is wrong.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 19, posted (4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 917 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 16): Quoting BN747 (Reply 15):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
First the TPers need to understand what "civility" really is.
And that can not happen when adopting an attitude of 'oops injured man/woman ..toss 'em out ' launching the free-for-all fight to get their replacement in.
Where do you and Ken777 draw your line? Surely, if she were in a coma all this time, would you agree that she should have stepped down a yea
A coma, I can see..but even in that coma give her the time as you would 'a pregnant woman time off work'..if it's the type coma that people emerge from with much of their abilities intact.
As it is, here rehabilation time has been a reasonable period in which some determination is made.
With our Congress being one that drags iit's ass on EVERYTHING, except when they are drawing battle lines to blast each other..they are the least efficient entity on earth. They don't deserve swift replacement in these cases, their worth attitude does not demand it. Where they buzzing like a underground chinese DVD pirating operation or Nigerian email scammers..then I'd say yes.. keep it movin'. But they aren't. They light years from that work pace..as log as they drag ass, allow a recovering member - Repub or Dem or whomever, allow them the necessary time to recover - no rush needed.
Many have fought hard to gain their office titles, if they are injured allow them the same respect.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 876 times:
Bottom line is the good citizenry of her district have been left without a representative all this time.
While likely her single vote would not make or break any thing over the last year, her continued absence and inability to fully serve her constituents is the bigger issue here imo.
The folks deserve to have an active representative and she was clearly not that person now nor likely into the future.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8202 posts, RR: 48 Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 841 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): No. You'll never see me arguing against the government money spent rehabbing a sitting Member of Congress after an assignation attempt. Nor will you see me trying to push him or her out of office after an assignation attempt. (And you won't see me arguing to cur funds for the VA because the "Job Creators" ( ) want another tax cut.
That's not at all what you were talking about in the post I was replying to, and you know that.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 839 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 18): I know she is not in a coma. But what if she were? Where do you stand then?
I'd give her time if she is in a coma. We have the technology to determine if a patient is brain dead and
Quoting D L X (Reply 18): Do you have inside information that we do not have?
Nope, just going on reports on what Doctors are saying.
Quoting D L X (Reply 18): I disagree. It is her constituency's decision
Every two years. Until the next election it is the Representative's (or Senator's) decision.
Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
My understanding of brain injuries (having dealt with my grandmother's brain injury from a stroke) is that you reach a plateau after 6 months.
It appears that the gunshot trauma was different than a stroke. The GOP Senator had a stroke yesterday and he may fall under that guideline.
Quoting D L X (Reply 18): It would be fantastic if your thinking was right and my thinking is wrong.
It's not my thinking, it was a new report on TV, reporting what doctors say in regards to her speech rehab. I wouldn't be surprised if the other physical damage is a tougher road. The gross motor losses in the arm and leg appear (to me) to be like a stroke victim.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20): Bottom line is the good citizenry of her district have been left without a representative all this time.
Not totally. They still have the staff, and it is the staff that handles most of the day to day work. If there had been a need for her vote she could have been there after the initial period. Just like she will be at the State of the Nation Address tonight, as one of her last official acts before resigning.
And, BTW, she did take a bullet in her service to the good citizenry of her district.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20): her continued absence and inability to fully serve her constituents is the bigger issue here imo.
I've been well served by my local Representative - even before and during his time at the Betty Ford Clinic.
The secret is that he has good Staff and they do the job of service constituents. They were the ones I went to in his office and they were the ones that took care of my situation.
And, yes, he is the only Republican I vote for in these days of the TP.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20): The folks deserve to have an active representative
The folks deserve to have an active and effective staff in addressing their needs. Might be for information. contact with a government office, helping with a complaint, etc. They are the first line of contact for many in the District.
BTW, civility in politics dictates that others in office join in to pick up some of the slack during recovery periods. For example, the GOP Senator from IL had a stroke yesterday. The Democrat Senator from IL called the GOP Senator's office, wishing him well, and indicating that he and his office were ready to help, including taking care of his Senate Duties.
Considering that Giffords was shot in the line of duty one would hope that there would be sufficient civility in the House for the same - providing the District's constituents with excellent service.
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 826 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): Be know well that I and others believe that it is HER decision to make.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20): Bottom line is the good citizenry of her district have been left without a representative all this time.
LAX nailed it, but if she cannot fulfill the duties of her office for a period of several months, she ought to have resigned.
And if anything, the ancient cadavers and meat puppets that occupy both Houses are just more validation for much-needed term limits. It was shameful they way Strom Thurmond, Robert Byrd and others played this shameful charade when they were barely coherent.
I also think that any Fedearl office holder that chooses to run for another office ought to be compelled to resign their seat.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 815 times:
Quoting slider (Reply 23):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Be know well that I and others believe that it is HER decision to make.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Bottom line is the good citizenry of her district have been left without a representative all this time.
LAX nailed it,
I'll stand by my comments on the good citizenry of her district. Citizens who have worked with Congressional Offices understand the work is done by staff.
Quoting slider (Reply 23): but if she cannot fulfill the duties of her office for a period of several months, she ought to have resigned
So how long do you let them rehab first? There is a GOP Senator from IL who would probably be interested in your opinion.
And does it matter if they were attacked in the line of duty?
Quoting slider (Reply 23): I also think that any Federal office holder that chooses to run for another office ought to be compelled to resign their seat.
What about those, like Gov Perry, who ran - for a while?
Of course, that might be a good way for the GOP to rid themselves of Ron Paul.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 25, posted (4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 762 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24): So how long do you let them rehab first?
Personally I'd give someone no more than a few weeks.
If they are incapacitated or absent and unable to competently carry out their sworn responsibilities, they need to either step down, be forced to resign or stripped of their office. This notion is not unique, as it is successfully practiced in other democracies overseas, so there is guidance to follow.
Having representatives out for extended periods does no one any good, and harms the system and the citizenry.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 26, posted (4 months 19 hours ago) and read 720 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24): Citizens who have worked with Congressional Offices understand the work is done by staff.
The "work" is votes. Votes are done by elected Members. Anything else is unconstitutional.
Giffords as a congresswoman has a two year term. She has now spent more than 50% of it unable to do her job. If ANY of us had suffered such an unfortunate accident, our jobs would not be waiting for us. We would have gone on long term disability to take care of our needs, and our employers would have hired someone else to take care of theirs.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24): And does it matter if they were attacked in the line of duty?
No.
That's an even better analogy - military servicemen. If a soldier gets injured, the military will take care of the wounded, but the command will try to replace the soldier using resources that are or become available.
1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1371 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (4 months 15 hours ago) and read 688 times:
I wish her all the best in her recovery. Not many people would be able to carry out their work after such an experience and she has done her constituents proud
slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 28, posted (4 months 15 hours ago) and read 683 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24): What about those, like Gov Perry, who ran - for a while?
I didn't stutter. ALL office holders who run for another office should relinquish their seat.
And the reasons for one's incapcity are irrelevant; if they cannot do their jobs, they shouldn't be there and should step down. Hard to walk away from a job that allows so much graft, perks, lifetime benefits and preferential treatment such as being in Congress though. Once again Ken, you make it a partisan issue, congratulations. It's an AMERICAN issue. We deserve better but few demand it.
No doubt in my mind that Gabby can raise her hand (but only one) or press a button. And she has the mental facilities to know which way she wants to vote.
It wouldn't be impossible for her to spend a lot of time in DC, making a lot more votes than, say, Ron Paul. She could probably make far more votes than healthy Representatives who are in meeting, or dialing for dollars. Because she was shot in the line of duty the government would, of course, pick up all costs of dual rehab facilities.
As I said before, her staff can handle the mountain of work they handled before the assignation attempt and serve the voters in that area. My GOP Rep's staff kept things going very well, thank you, when he went to the Betty Ford Clinic. No need for a resignation. I even continue to vote for be because of the work his staff did for me.
Quoting D L X (Reply 26): If a soldier gets injured, the military will take care of the wounded, but the command will try to replace the soldier using resources that are or become available.
They will "try" to replace an E-1 or E-2, etc. Some times the guy (or gal) gets patched up and has to stay.
But then that Boot on the Ground wasn't elected. Not even "selected" by his friends and neighbors.
Quoting slider (Reply 29): Once again Ken, you make it a partisan issue, congratulations.
Just the opposite. I believe both the Democrat representative who was the victim of an assignation attempt and the Republican Senator who had a stroke should BOTH be given the right to decide if they can continue. As I pointed out earlier, the Republicans Senator's cohort from Illinois, who is a Democrat, has offered the Republican all assistance needed, included the assumption of Senator Duties.
BTW, I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't taking a "partisan position" with my comments on both my Republican Representative (and my support for him in his "time of problems") and the Republican Senator from Illinois. My position is consistent and as far from partisan as you can get.
But I have a feeling that the ones glad to see the back of Giffords are wither Republicans or TP'ers.
The hard think for many to understand is that we do need some civility in DC. Raw red meat eaters simply haven't achieved anything good for the country IMO.
Or is it an American Problem. Having zero tolerance for those who look different because of a stroke, or battle wound that resulted in amputation, or not moving like Madonna because of an assignation attempt.
SOme people are only concerned about Gffords physical damage with zero concern about her mental abilities to make decision that might come up for a vote, and to be able to determine when she needs to be there for that vote.
And, make no mistake about it, if there was a vote where her vote was really needed she would have the right to call for an appropriate government aircraft to take her to DC so she could vote.
Quoting slider (Reply 29): We deserve better but few demand it.
Depends on what you are demanding. Most people against Giffords are demanding intolerance.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 30, posted (4 months 13 hours ago) and read 654 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29): And she has the mental facilities to know which way she wants to vote.
Again, how do you know that?
I mean, how do you even know she can count to 5?
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29): Because she was shot in the line of duty the government would, of course, pick up all costs of dual rehab facilities.
Who is going to take care of Giffords is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she should remain on her job.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29): I believe both the Democrat representative who was the victim of an assignation attempt and the Republican Senator who had a stroke should BOTH be given the right to decide if they can continue.
Even if you believe you are being fair, you have to admit that your tone changed markedly over the course of this thread. You started out saying that she shouldn't leave because you don't want a tea partier taking her place.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29): But I have a feeling that the ones glad to see the back of Giffords are wither Republicans or TP'ers.
Hold on there. Two things: you know I'm not a Republican, but even if I were, I'd balk at the suggestion that I am cheering anyone out of office due to injury.
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 31, posted (4 months 11 hours ago) and read 628 times:
Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Seems like she waited about a year too long to resign.
I agree, she waited a year too long and used the time to garner sympathy during her public appearances. There should be a law that states if a representative is incapacitated for more than a certain period of time then they must resign their office. We know for a fact that she couldn't function even on a most basic level for several months, and everyone knows she would not regain full functionality before the end of her term, if ever. Her seat should have been up for grabs long ago.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 32, posted (4 months 10 hours ago) and read 616 times:
Quoting redflyer (Reply 31): There should be a law that states if a representative is incapacitated for more than a certain period of time then they must resign their office.
Actually, that's an interesting angle that I probably should have thought of earlier.
What if (god forbid) it wasn't a congressman or a senator, but a president that was incapacitated for a year or longer. What then? Well, we all know that the person would have been stripped of power.
Before anyone says "Presidents are different from Congress" I'd point out that the most stated argument for letting Giffords keep her seat this long is that her staff was there and did all the work. Well, the President has a staff and then also a bunch of agencies that do all the work. So, how would it be different?
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 33, posted (4 months 9 hours ago) and read 600 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 32): Before anyone says "Presidents are different from Congress" I'd point out that the most stated argument for letting Giffords keep her seat this long is that her staff was there and did all the work. Well, the President has a staff and then also a bunch of agencies that do all the work. So, how would it be different?
I think Section 4 of the 15th Amendment addresses your point:
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
The way my ignorant layman's mind reads this, it essentially states that if the President can't perform his duties then the VP will assume the powers of the President.
No such provision exists for members of Congress, as far as I'm aware.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 34, posted (4 months 6 hours ago) and read 576 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 30): Who is going to take care of Giffords is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she should remain on her job.
Wasn't that the reason why the GOP kept a 90 year old guy in office until he hit 100? I think they added a taxidermist to his Staff to keep him going.
Quoting D L X (Reply 30): You started out saying that she shouldn't leave because you don't want a tea partier taking her place.
Wrong. This is what I said:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2): Reality is that she can show up to vote if it is critical, but with the TP running the GOP in the House there is no reason for someone not on the too far right to slow up for every Cantor Event.
She can show up and vote. Not hard to understand.
Quoting D L X (Reply 30): Again, how do you know that?
The average person can only rely on what they get from the media. CNN has been pretty reliable on the medical side from every thing I have seen.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 31): There should be a law that states if a representative is incapacitated for more than a certain period of time then they must resign their office.
We really don't know how soon after the assignation attempt that she could have raised her right hand, or pressed a button to vote. Pressing a button would have been rather fast, with more rehab needed for raising a hand. We have had politicians taken into the Chamber on a stretcher so they could vote.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 31): and everyone knows she would not regain full functionality before the end of her term, if ever.
Are we banning Senators and Representatives who are in a wheelchair or on crutches from office? Kick them out if they can't walk well. Maybe we can get rid of the smokers because they have to be mentally defective to smoke? Oooops! The Tan Man smokes.
Quoting D L X (Reply 32): What if (god forbid) it wasn't a congressman or a senator, but a president that was incapacitated for a year or longer
That is taken care of by the Constitution and various laws and agreements. (Info below.)
The difference with the Senate and, especially, the House is that one person missing for a while does not impact the nation like a President.
If a President is incapacitated for a year then the VP will be taking over until the President is able to carry out the duties of heading up the Executive Branch and being Commander n Chief of the Military. If that year happens within the 4 year Presidential Term then the President resumes the Office.
In the Congress the elected member stays in office until they resign or die or complete their term.
Quoting D L X (Reply 32): Well, we all know that the person would have been stripped of power.
Actually, Presidents have been known to advise the VP that they would be incapacitated for a period of time. IIRC, Reagan did so when he would be under a general anesthetic. Bush I very properly stayed in the VP's office, but had the powers of the Presidency in case an emergency came up.
I can also remember something about Nixon taking over for Ike when Ike had a heart attack:
Quote: For Richard Nixon, that was not just an idle activity. On September 24, 1955, Nixon received a call informing him that the president had suffered a coronary attack. Nixon was placed in a very delicate situation. While the president was ill, Nixon needed to show that the nation's business was being handled effectively so as not to seem weak, but if he attempted to take too much control it would arouse fears of a power grab by an overly ambitious understudy. He recognized that "even the slightest misstep could be interpreted as an attempt to assume power." Nixon and other members of the cabinet decided to emphasize that Eisenhower's team concept would ensure the government could operate without difficulty until the president recovered. The vice president would preside at cabinet and National Security Council meetings, just as he had done numerous times when the president had been away. White House Chief of Staff Sherman Adams flew to Denver, where Eisenhower was hospitalized, to assist the president, and when Ike was feeling better Nixon was one of the first to visit him. Still, Nixon was careful to observe proper protocol. He presided over cabinet meetings from the vice president's chair and conducted business from his office in the Capitol. He even made sure to visit cabinet members rather than having them come to see him. As he put it, he had "to provide leadership without appearing to lead." Nixon handled this ambiguous situation with considerable skill, leading Emmett Hughes, a frequent critic, to call it his "finest official hour."
But while the vice president's actions, and inactions, brought widespread praise, they also raised fears that the Eisenhower administration could suddenly become the Nixon administration, especially when the president underwent an operation for ileitis in June of 1956. Eisenhower's health would become a primary issue in the 1956 election, as Democrats reminded voters that a vote for Eisenhower was also a vote for Nixon. Ike's health would continue to be a subject of concern during his second term, and after Eisenhower suffered a stroke in 1957 he decided that it was time to set out procedures for how Nixon should proceed if the president were to become incapacitated. He drafted a letter stating that, if he were unable to perform his duties, Nixon would serve as "acting president" until he recovered. Eisenhower would determine when he was sufficiently able to take control once more. The agreement was strictly between Eisenhower and Nixon and therefore amounted only to a shaky precedent (although Kennedy and Johnson copied it later). Not until passage of the Twenty-fifth Amendment in 1967 was the issue of presidential incapacity officially dealt with.
"In the event of the president's temporary disability, the vice president serves as president until the president recovers. The president may declare the beginning and ending of his or her own disability. But, if the president is unable to communicate, the vice president and a majority of the president's Cabinet, or "...other body as Congress may by law provide..." may determine the president's state of disability.
Should the president's ability to serve be disputed, Congress decides. They must, within 21 days, and by a two-thirds vote of each chamber, determine whether the president is able to serve or not. Until they do, the vice president acts as president."
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 35, posted (4 months 5 hours ago) and read 566 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34): We really don't know how soon after the assignation attempt that she could have raised her right hand, or pressed a button to vote. Pressing a button would have been rather fast, with more rehab needed for raising a hand. We have had politicians taken into the Chamber on a stretcher so they could vote.
Holy Mother of God! We are not talking about an ability to raise one's hand or swing any other limb or body part. We are talking about someone who has BRAIN DAMAGE. And that goes to the heart of her ability to THINK and, more importantly, to articulate. If they can't think or articulate, how in the world can they make a judgment with regards to legislative matters??????
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34): Are we banning Senators and Representatives who are in a wheelchair or on crutches from office?
No. Only those that don't have a fully functioning, clinically non-defective adult brain should be banned.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2311 posts, RR: 2 Reply 36, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 440 times:
Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Seems like she waited about a year too long to resign. If over a year into her two year term, she is unable to continue, she was certainly unable to continue when it happened.
As usual follow the money. She served 5 years the day before she resigned which qualified her for a Congressional pension.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24): I'll stand by my comments on the good citizenry of her district. Citizens who have worked with Congressional Offices understand the work is done by staff.
But staff members don't vote on the House floor.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 37, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 440 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34): Wasn't that the reason why the GOP kept a 90 year old guy in office until he hit 100?
I have no idea why that is relevant, and I hope you're not accusing me of being a hypocrite.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34): CNN has been pretty reliable on the medical side from every thing I have seen.
Has CNN reported that she has no loss of reasoning ability?
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34): The difference with the Senate and, especially, the House is that one person missing for a while does not impact the nation like a President.
That's the wrong analogy. Yes, the nation as a whole cares about what the president does because he is a national figure. But just as important to a nation that a president is, a congresswoman is important to her district. So again, why the distinction? You said that a congressperson's staff can do the job of the congressperson, yet you would not allow that for a president.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 35): Holy Mother of God! We are not talking about an ability to raise one's hand or swing any other limb or body part. We are talking about someone who has BRAIN DAMAGE.
THANK YOU!!!
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 36): As usual follow the money. She served 5 years the day before she resigned which qualified her for a Congressional pension.
If that's true, then that is an amazing piece of information.
Personally, I'm fine with her getting a Congressional pension. That should have been given to her the instant she was incapacitated.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 38, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 427 times:
So, you have a backup for the president, but no backup for the others ? Here, it's the opposite. If the president dies or resigns, there is no replacement, an election is quickly set up, and the speaker of the senate assumes the office in the interim. However every congressperson has a backup, mostly used when they become ministers to keep the seat warm.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 40, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 425 times:
Quoting redflyer (Reply 35): We are talking about someone who has BRAIN DAMAGE.
How much "Brain Damage"? Enough to make her want to join the TP?
We obviously do not have an intelligence test for Senators and Congressmen & Women. When you cut through the sound bites the intelligence level seems to drop. All they can do is stick to party lines and hope the questions don't get too complicated.
As for Giffords, I have a feeling that she has easily insufficient brain capacity to vote in her traditional manner.
Just like i believe that the GOP Senator has the mental capacity to serve, but deserves the time to go through rehab. And, yes, he could be made available to vote if his vote was critical.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 35): her ability to THINK and, more importantly, to articulate
Thinking is more important than articulating when it comes to voting. She can still vote, she can still serve.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 35): Only those that don't have a fully functioning, clinically non-defective adult brain should be banned.
That takes away a lot of the politicians we now have. Starting with the TP'ers.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 36): . She served 5 years the day before she resigned which qualified her for a Congressional pension.
Look at the dates. Five years is one indicator. One heart from the assignation attempt is another, and more important for her evaluation of her position. Then there was the State of the Union Address. Can you blame her for wanting to be there one more time?
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): I have no idea why that is relevant, and I hope you're not accusing me of being a hypocrite.
No. But I am pointing out that Old Strom Thurmond served well past his ability to think or articulate. The guy was just about carried around by his staff on some days. But he was able to raise a hand (with help) or push a button and that is all the GOP needed him to do.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): Has CNN reported that she has no loss of reasoning ability?
Has CNN reported ANY loss of her reasoning ability?
I still put her above some of the right wing nuts in the TP.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): So again, why the distinction?
There is one President. There are 535 Senators & Congressmen & women. The ratio pretty well says it as clear as possible.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): You said that a congressperson's staff can do the job of the congressperson,
In terms of constituent support that is very true. How many congressmen actually read and answer every letter? Or write every response? Or make every contact with the various departments for a constituent? Those types of tasks make up a big part of the Congressional Office tasks and they are carried out by staff.
Voting is another matter. If there was a critical vote where one vote really mattered then she could have been there. Just like Ron Paul these days, or his son - skipping out on Senate Duties to help out Dear Old Dad.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37): yet you would not allow that for a president
Again, the President stands along, he is not one out of 525. There are different levels of authority & responsibilities.
Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
If that's true, then that is an amazing piece of information.
Not really.
The amazing bit of information is the fact that the lady has survived an assignation attempt. She has struggled through horrors you and I will never know and is coming back. That should be an amazing story for anyone, regardless of their political position. That bi-partisanship was pretty clearly seen on the days when she did walk onto the floor of the House. Republicans were just as eager to see her as Democrats. Especially since they realize that any of the other members of the House and Senate could be a target just as easily.
Since the assignation attempt was in the line of duty I doubt if there would be any issue with her receiving her retirement plan. She was elected for her 3rd term and would under normal circumstances have received that pension.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 41, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 420 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): But I am pointing out that Old Strom Thurmond served well past his ability to think or articulate.
Again, that is irrelevant. I've never suggested, nor would I, that Strom should have been in office as late as he was. I hold all elected officials to the same standard. The only thing that might be different about a Senator over a Congressman being out of action for a year is the term length: a year out of a Senator's term is 1/6th. A year out of the Congressman's term is 1/2 of the term. Giffords had already been absent for over half her term, with the likely scenario being that she would miss the rest AND never recover.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
Has CNN reported that she has no loss of reasoning ability?
Has CNN reported ANY loss of her reasoning ability?
Ken777, I'm really not understanding you today as you seem to be arguing in circles. First, you said that she has no loss of brain function, which is why I questioned your source. Then you said that CNN has not reported loss of brain function. Now you're saying CNN hasn't reported that she hasn't lost brain function.
So, are you concluding that a lack of reporting on losing brain function means she hasn't lost brain function? Sorry to be crass, but look at her! Listen to her! She lost a chunk of her brain. OF COURSE she has lost brain function.
Now, having dealt with a dear person to me that suffered a severe brain injury, I can tell you what the doctors told me: before 6 months, you can see a marked improvement. After 6 months, it doesn't get much better. After a year, it will not get better at all. We are beyond a year now. Sadly, I believe we have seen the pinnacle of her recovery.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
So again, why the distinction?
There is one President. There are 535 Senators & Congressmen & women. The ratio pretty well says it as clear as possible.
No Ken, there is ONE congressperson for each district, and only one. Her district has been unrepresented in the House since her shooting. It is not the job of other congresspeople to take care of her district any more than it is the job of the president's staff to do the president's job.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
You said that a congressperson's staff can do the job of the congressperson,
In terms of constituent support that is very true. How many congressmen actually read and answer every letter? Or write every response? Or make every contact with the various departments for a constituent?
You're just showing how similar a congressperson's job is to a presidents'. Different constituencies, but the same number of people are representING.
If that's true, then that is an amazing piece of information.
Not really.
The amazing bit of information is the fact that the lady has survived an assignation attempt.
Don't reword my sentences. It is AN amazing piece of information that her resignation came a day after she became eligible for a pension. Do you think that was unplanned?
No one here or ever has belittled her improvement. That red herring is unnecessary.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 42, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 397 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): I've never suggested, nor would I, that Strom should have been in office as late as he was.
It was the decision of the voters who sent him back even if he was past the ability to function normally.
Simply proves that those who cannot function at a normal level can serve in office.
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): Ken777, I'm really not understanding you today as you seem to be arguing in circles.
Actually I was responding to your comment about her "brain damage". You seem so sure she is as bad as your loved one. What specific medical reports focused on Giffords are you relying on?
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): which is why I questioned your source
It was CNN, as I mentioned before. I tend to trust their presentations as they have a brain surgeon on staff as their top medical doctor.
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): After 6 months, it doesn't get much better.
Just the reverse of the issue with Giffords, which is getting words out easier. That improvement, according to the CNN story, is measured in years. She'll continue rehab and improve each year.
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): It is AN amazing piece of information that her resignation came a day after she became eligible for a pension. Do you think that was unplanned?
WHo really cares? We are establishing precedent for future assignation attempts and it is the GOP's interests as well as the Democrats to ensure care is taken before pushing an elected official out.
Same with stroke patients. That GOP Senator with the stroke will be another example if the Giffords bashing goes too far.
So what is the pension for a Senator or Congressman or Woman who survives an assignation attempt and, after a responsible period of time for rehabilitation, resign for response directly tied to the assignation attempt? Is that listed somewhere in the laws, or is it something for common sense?
I believe Giffords made a logical and responsible decision. The rehabilitation for her is different than your loved one and should not be twisted out of what it is. Because her benchmarks are in years she waited to see where she was at one year. Not a big deal considering that she could be serving in DC right now, with time for rehabbing built into her schedule. She certainly has the ability to c art votes consistent with her long term positions - which would be sufficient for serving her voters in that area,
You wish? Got anything but a family's experience with something different? Medical literature for a start?
Quoting D L X (Reply 41): Sorry to be crass, but look at her! Listen to her!
And listen to you!
She has gross motor loss that is consistent with someone who has suffered a stroke - like the GOP Senator. Gonna want him out as well because they don't walk like you want a politician to walk? Keep the gimps out?
And her communication issue has been discussed before. That is the one area where Gifords is different than your relative. I'll go with the medical reports I've seen over someone's relative.
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 43, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 388 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): Quoting redflyer (Reply 35):
Only those that don't have a fully functioning, clinically non-defective adult brain should be banned.
That takes away a lot of the politicians we now have. Starting with the TP'ers.
You would be far more persuasive in your arguments if you stuck with the facts in lieu of slinging rhetorical mud.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40): But I am pointing out that Old Strom Thurmond served well past his ability to think or articulate. The guy was just about carried around by his staff on some days. But he was able to raise a hand (with help) or push a button and that is all the GOP needed him to do.
Sen. Thurmond was a prime example of why some representatives stick around far too long and actually do their constituents a disservice, not to mention the nation as a whole. I would add to that list the Late Sen. Byrd.
I may lean to the right of the political spectrum, but I disdain politicians in general and I particularly disdain politicians that stay in office for their own personal aggrandizement - regardless of their political stripes. Unfortunately, one of the first casualties of an elected official when they take office is their integrity. Power, even in a democracy where power is limited, has a way of corrupting the most well-intentioned individual.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Reply 44, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 382 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42): Simply proves that those who cannot function at a normal level can serve in office.
Still don't know how that's relevant.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42): You seem so sure she is as bad as your loved one.
I'm actually quite certain that Gifford's brain injury was significantly worse than my loved one. A stroke or an aneurism obviously does less damage than a Glock .19 bullet passing from above her eye and exiting out the back of her head. Would you deny that?
Now here's the thing about the brain: it is made of nerves. Nerves, unlike other cells, do not regenerate and repair themselves. ALL that they can do is form new connections between neurons, in an effort to duplicate the functions that are now lost. That's why you hit a plateau after a year -- if the connections haven't been made by then, it's not likely that the cells are going to ever have connections form. Could be distance between cells, or simply damage. A bullet is way worse than a stroke. I don't have to tell you that Giffords is lucky to be alive -- what I'm surprised to have to tell you is that Giffords is not going to have close to a full recovery.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42): It was CNN, as I mentioned before.
Sorry, that wasn't very clear. Thanks. Do you have a link?
He doesn't sound too optimistic, all in all, saying that she won't have what we would call a full recovery, but that in a few years she might be able to give a speech. (In a few years?! That suggests she should have stepped down, Ken!)
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42): Quoting D L X (Reply 41):
It is AN amazing piece of information that her resignation came a day after she became eligible for a pension. Do you think that was unplanned?
WHo really cares? We are establishing precedent for future assignation attempts and it is the GOP's interests as well a
You should, as it affects your argument. It supports the proposition that she (or those around her) were aware that she would not ever be fit to serve, but that she wanted or needed to stay in order to get the pension that would take care of her medical expenses, which we both know will be severe.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42): Gonna want him out as well because they don't walk like you want a politician to walk? Keep the gimps out?
We simply cannot compare her damage to a stroke patient. A stroke might be minor (like the GOP Senators appears to be) or it can be massive - far worse than Giffords injury. Giffords physical damage is on the right side (where strokes generally hit the left) and she is walking pretty well, though it's clear from the story you linked that she has an insert in her shoe to avoid toe drop. Her walking also appears to start at the hip on the right.
But that, like a physical disability from a stroke, doe not disqualify her - see just doesn't' look "normal" and we like our politicians to look better than just normal.
It wasn't it, but it was similar in terms of talking about rebuilding that path for speech. The report I listened to was that, unlike stroke victims, the victim like her can improve each year for 4 or 5 years. Stroke victims shave a far shorter period of time.
There are a lot of peole who I don'e believe are fit to serve, starting with those who are so severely partisan that they are mentally unable to work out a compromise with the other party in a responsible manner.
Quoting D L X (Reply 44): but that in a few years she might be able to give a speech.
GIving a speech is window dressing, just like being able to deliver a sound bite written by a party's speech writer. I don't put that much importance is the verbal battering that we see too much of these days.
Personally I'm more focused on the quality of the person and their long term values (or positions). Our senators are pretty fixed - one senator could mail in his votes once a year, or just let Botox McConnell place his vote. The other (Coburn) can be reasonably bright a lot of the times, but can't get over the issue of Guns & Butter & Cake being a real cause of the deficit.
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