YokoTsuno From Singapore, joined Feb 2011, 240 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
This incident is the talk of the town here at the moment.
It's about two Indian toddlers placed under child protection in Norway. The reasons for this to happen, at least if I read through the local and Indian news here, are bizarre. I tried to get the Norwegian point of view on this incident by translating one of the links below, but Google translator doesn't make me any wiser either.
Can anyone (Norwegians) shed some light on this story.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 1, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2140 times:
Not Norwegian, but I speak the language. Basically it seems that the Norwegian local government came on a visit to the couple and had some criticizm on the situation of the children (e.g. that the home had some dangerous environment) and that the mother had post-birth depression.
The main reasoning for the govt. seems to have been the perceived lack of ability of the mother to take care of her children. Apparently the mother admitted once to have hit her son, before realizing that such was illegal in Norway.
They also criticize the mother on how she breastfeeds her daughter and that the children don't have adequate clothing and toys.
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1021 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
www.Aftenbladet.no is the large newspaper in Stavanger. They have followed this a bit. It doesnt seem to be a major issue at all in Norway with fairly little attention given to it. Doesnt seem to have caused any controversy.
There is also this newspaper. http://www.rogalandsavis.no/
Seems to be two sides to the story and we cant know which one thats right.
What we can say is that the Indian couple dont understand how the Norwegian society and its values work.
Personally I think the childcare unit went way way to far when they placed the children in permanent fostercare.
No need for that. But its also pretty clear that by Norweigian standards and legislation these parents arent good enough parents and they desperately need help.
I hope they send the family and their children permanenetly back to India. Best solution for all. The newspaper seems to hint that this is what will take place.
Give the mother a suspended sentence for childabuse (hitting her children) and be done with it. After all the mother has admitted to this and it is illegal in Norway.
For people from warmer climates, some points that might seem trivial really isnt trivial at all.
Wrong clothes in Stavanger, whats the big deal you say?
Ok put it in this perspective no winter clothes in a place where the winter sees months of minusdegrees and where the wind can make a summerday feel like the arctic says hello.
Hitting the children, both children showed signs of having been hit something that is illegal and frowned upon in Norway. Mother admits to have hit the young child once. A child thats less than five months old. You dont hit newborns if you have a stable mind.
The childcare units points to several incidents and marks on the children over a period of time.
The three year old suffers from development problems whatever that is and the childcare unit attributes this to his home environment.
The Indian family refutes this and say the Norweigian childcare unit dont understand Indian childcare methods.
The Norweigian childcare says that everyone in Norway follows Norweigian laws no matter what cultural background.
the mum suffers from a Post natal depression. It means the mum shouldnt be alone with her children.
In Norway the husband would have stayed at home (he still gets salary) and taken care of the family while his wife cured her depression. He didnt, instead he got annoyed at her and there are suggestions of domestic violence.
As said I have no clue whats right and wrong in this case.
But I can see both sides argument and I must say I am sceptical about the reporting on the indian side. I am also sceptical to why the Norweigian childcare unit couldnt send the children to the in laws or grandparents since this is a well educated and rich Indian family with resources to look after them in a safe and proven surrounding.
From having lived in 15 countries or so over the years I might add a personal reflection.
I think its very important to understand the laws and the values of a society that you move to. It might be ok to hit a 3 months old in India, its definately not ok to do so in Norway.
Dont break any laws and the chances of you ending up in trouble is minimal.
For me I cant for the life of me understand all this halleluja anti alcohol stuff in brunei. but I am a guest in brunei and its up to me to accept their laws and values if I am to stay there, same goes for this family. They went to Norway, they have to accept Norweigian law and values when they live there.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 4, posted (3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1919 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2): Mother admits to have hit the young child once. A child thats less than five months old. You dont hit newborns if you have a stable mind.
And that's not a "western" or "liberal" thing. A child under a year of age is physically fragile and has no working memory. Punishing such a child in any way is abuse. Punishing a child at 2 or 3 when there is working memory is very different.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1856 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2): Wrong clothes in Stavanger, whats the big deal you say?
Ok put it in this perspective no winter clothes in a place where the winter sees months of minusdegrees and where the wind can make a summerday feel like the arctic says hello.
Stavanger isn't all that cold, it rarely drops below zero, and then only in January and February, there are much colder places in Norway.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2): In Norway the husband would have stayed at home (he still gets salary) and taken care of the family while his wife cured her depression.
No he can't, the husband can take 2 weeks leave when the baby is born, one week paid the other unpaid, it's mandatory for the father to take 12 weeks paternity leave but this cannot be at the same time as the mother when she is on maternity leave. A friend of my wife suffered from post natal depression, she go f all help from the state, most of her help came from her retired mother and grandmother who took care of the kids when she couldn't, her husband remained at work and took his leave later.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2): It might be ok to hit a 3 months old in India, its definately not ok to do so in Norway.
Agreed nobody in control hits a three month old, however the Norwegian anti smacking laws are pretty much useless, parents who beat there children will do so whether it's illegal or not, children who are beaten are usually too scared to speak out; most of the young Norwegians I know are disrespectful and rude, most could have done with a belt around the butts when they were younger. Discipline in Norway is almost non existent amongst young people, schools don't even give out detentions, parents are too scared to do anything in case they get charged with child abuse.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1645 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5): Stavanger isn't all that cold, it rarely drops below zero, and then only in January and February, there are much colder places in Norway.
It is currently - (minus) 6 Celcius in Stavanger. Stavanger also has alot of wind - always, so the cold feels alot colder than the meter would indicate.
Cerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 533 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1582 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7): The thing is they are living in Norway so they have to live under Norwegian law, if they don't like it they can go home.
I find this comment simplistic at best. Was the poster certain that the couple was fully aware of the relevant law? Did anyone speaking their language and understand their culture explain to them what is expected of them in the context of the environment they were living in? Was the mother's perinatal depression under control? Was treatment afforded to the mother if her condition was affecting her?
As an immigrant l can testify that old habits die hard and subtleties of cultural difference take years even decades to fully adapt to. Further, my mother is a teacher and witnessed several examples of children of immigrant parents being taken away by Child Protection agencies and placed under permanent foster care. Now the parents were not blameless, just as in this case they clearly did something inadequate, but they were not horrible parents who do not deserve to raise their children. The Child Protection agencies often have an one-tracked mind. They were trying to do their job but in the process, rather than helping the parents becoming better at parenting, only managed to alienate the parents, fanning their distrust of authorities, and causing mental trauma to both the parents and the children, thereby pushing a potentially salvageable situation onto the path of no return.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 2): Personally I think the childcare unit went way way to far when they placed the children in permanent fostercare.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5320 posts, RR: 22 Reply 12, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9): Was the poster certain that the couple was fully aware of the relevant law?
Even if they were not that's still their problem. Ancient Roman principle of "ignorantia legis neminem excusat" has been one of the cornerstones of modern understanding of law. Multikulti advocates will probably sooner or later try challenge that as well, but if it's not values of the society immigrants chose to move into, if it's not language of their country of choice then obedience of laws should be one the last bastion which should not be surrendered otherwise we're back into medieval ages of personality of law and parallel societies.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1447 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9): I find this comment simplistic at best.
It's like when I was stopped for speeding within days of arriving in Norway, I was travelling at 110kph on a motorway, the road was a good one, no traffic, I assumed the speed limit was 100kph like back in NZ, the speed limit was only 80kph, my ignorance of the speed limit was no excuse for my breaking the law, had I had a Norwegian license I would have lost it. You can't be excused from punishment just because you didn't know you were doing something illegial.
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 875 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1421 times:
Norway is one of those countries where you can have a lot of trust in the authorities. There´s little or no corruption and very few problems, relatively. If the Norwegian Child protective services feel that a child is not being treated well and take the child from it´s parents then I´m quite confident that it was warranted.
Keep in mind that the authorities are almost always under confidentiality rules in which they cannot disclose what they know about a certain case. Therefore in cases like this you´ll quite often just get one side of the story.
Cerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 533 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1363 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12): Even if they were not that's still their problem.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13): You can't be excused from punishment just because you didn't know you were doing something illegial.
I never said the parents should get off scotch free. What I have a problem with is the extent of the punishment. They should been given a chance to prove that they can be law-abiding residents of the country and good parents. Their chance of doing that could be robbed permanently for a felony/crime that they might not even know they were committing or have limited control over.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13): had I had a Norwegian license I would have lost it.
You would have a chance to drive again in Norway, the parents may never see their children again. How would you feel if in addition to losing your licence your car is confiscated, your visa is cancelled and you are declared persona non grata?
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 14): Norway is one of those countries where you can have a lot of trust in the authorities.
No corruption does not mean that everything the government does is correct and no ill-considered. It also does not mean every government worker cannot be heavy-handed in their approach to anything.
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 14): If the Norwegian Child protective services feel that a child is not being treated well and take the child from it´s parents
This should be a last resort, not the first line of action. If Post 1 is correct it seemed that this was not the case sadly.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 24 Reply 16, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1360 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15): They should been given a chance to prove that they can be law-abiding residents of the country and good parents.
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15): This should be a last resort, not the first line of action.
From the little experience I have, and much more from other Nordic countries though they tend to be similar, parents are given multiple chances with frequent followups to verify if changes are taking places before children are taken away.
I have no idea how it happened in this case but would be surprised if they were taken at the first occasion unless the kids had severe injuries expected to be from abuse.
Don’t repeat earlier generations’ mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
Cerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 533 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1266 times:
Quoting cmf (Reply 16): parents are given multiple chances with frequent followups to verify if changes are taking places before children are taken away.
It is very well to follow-up, but there is a huge difference between turning up, making a note about the condition and leaving with the threat that if things don't improve there will be consequences and actually sitting down, talking with the parents, asking them if they are facing any difficulties, whether they understand the laws/regulations and the consequence of failing to comply. It is easy to distinguish between those that could not care less about their children, those who tried but did not quite succeed and those who wanted to but were incapable of raising their children because of health issues within minutes of talking to them. Clearly, the strategies to deal with different cases need to differ. Mental conditions, in particular, can be associated with consideration shame/guilt/stigmas in certain cultures, the parents might be suffering in silence, too afraid/ashamed to seek help. Now that the children got taken away, it will do wonders to the mother's perinatal depression.
Again, I am not saying the parents in this case are beyond reproach, but I cannot help but feel that there could have been a happier ending if Asturias's account is anywhere close to the truth.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1259 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 15): You would have a chance to drive again in Norway, the parents may never see their children again. How would you feel if in addition to losing your licence your car is confiscated, your visa is cancelled and you are declared persona non grata?
I could have happened, one of my mother-in-laws neighbours is perminantly banned from driving, the only reason why the S.O.B. wasn't deported is because he's a refugee with a family to support.
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17): It is very well to follow-up, but there is a huge difference between turning up, making a note about the condition and leaving with the threat that if things don't improve there will be consequences and actually sitting down, talking with the parents, asking them if they are facing any difficulties,
The nytid article states that the child protection people had made several visits to the family, I very much doubt that this was a hasty decision. These are inteligent people the father is a senior geoligist for Halliburton, he's be earning well over 1 million NOK per year, they should have been able to pay for help if the wife needed it. The parents screwed up, they didn't provide for the children in a manor acceptable to the Norwegian authourities and now they have to pay for that mistake.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1249 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17): Again, I am not saying the parents in this case are beyond reproach, but I cannot help but feel that there could have been a happier ending if Asturias's account is anywhere close to the truth.
Do we have anything to suggest Norwegian authorities didn't try everything else before taking away the children?
Again, I have no direct knowledge about this case, only how it (supposedly) works in other Nordic countries.
Don’t repeat earlier generations’ mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
Cerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 533 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1241 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18): one of my mother-in-laws neighbours is perminantly banned from driving
For driving 10kph over the speed limit? I freely admit I cannot read Norwegian/norsk, but if the account published on the Hindu was not a deliberate distortion of the facts, then I can only conclude what the Norwegian court did was akin to banning someone from driving for 15 years because they drove at 110kph while the speed limit was 100.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18): they should have been able to pay for help if the wife needed it.
It is not about whether they can pay for medical care, which should not be a problem in a country like Norway or Australia for that matter. It is about realising/admitting that they have a problem, and there are powerful factors that makes such admission highly undesirable. Look at any list of famous people committing suicide after being depressed for a long time, they "should have been able to pay for help" too, so what happened?
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18): The parents screwed up, they didn't provide for the children in a manor acceptable to the Norwegian authourities
Aside from the mother hitting the child while suffering from perinatal depression (and ceased doing so after being informed it was illegal), absence of none of the required "manners" posed immediate danger to the children. Much of the cases against the parents seemed to be subjective, with even the way the mother breastfed the baby cited as "infant interaction". While some concerns are legitimate, none really came anywhere close to justify the action taken. Imagine 18 years later someone asking the kids "so why did you become separated from your parents while you were two?", the answer would be "because they did not get me age-specific toys" or "the house we were in was too small so we did not have enough room to play" or "my mother had perinatal depression for about half a year, as a consequence we only saw her a few hours each year for 18 years". Does it even make sense? One cannot simply assume whatever the "authority" did was correct, a faithfully interpretation of the relevant laws and adequate enforcement of such laws.
Cerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 533 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1239 times:
Quoting cmf (Reply 19): Do we have anything to suggest Norwegian authorities didn't try everything else before taking away the children?
Neither do we have any evidence of the authority trying anything to help, in addition to what I think was flawed reasons to adopt the actions taken in any case.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20): According to the Nytid article linked in the op the auithourities had visited many times over some months.
Again, the "authority" could have visited 100 times, but if they did not actually address the problems (some of which are either none of their business (how mother holds the baby), not easily solved (not enough rooms for the children) or even of their own creation (threatening to remove the children during the first visit thereby causing panic in mother who was also depressed)), they might as well not have visited at all.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 24 Reply 23, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1234 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 22): Neither do we have any evidence of the authority trying anything to help, in addition to what I think was flawed reasons to adopt the actions taken in any case.
We do no not have evidence they did try to help in this case but my experience from my friends and the living in Scandinavia I know the typical process is to provide help and only if it fails or if there is evidence of serious abuse take the children. When not having details of the specific case I think we must assume standard procedure was followed.
The information provided by KiwiRob also support this version.
Don’t repeat earlier generations’ mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1193 times:
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 21): For driving 10kph over the speed limit? I freely admit I cannot read Norwegian/norsk, but if the account published on the Hindu was not a deliberate distortion of the facts, then I can only conclude what the Norwegian court did was akin to banning someone from driving for 15 years because they drove at 110kph while the speed limit was 100.
Not just once but many many times, also caught driving without a license and driving drunk, same as this Indian couple they were seen by the authorities many times, they didn't heed the warning so the children were removed, it's that simple, they weren't deemed to be fit parents by Norwegian standards. I can't see why people are arguing against this, the well being of the children is the important factor here.
25 Cerecl: Even if this is the case, surely an appropriate approach is to place the children under temporary foster care, and notify the parents that getting th
26 KiwiRob: If the thief is a repeat offender then 20 years in gaol is the correct punishment. The simple fact is the parents weren't good enough parents by Norw
27 cmf: Sadly the rule seems to be that if authorities step in before there is a death it is draconian and if if there is a death they are incapable of doing
28 Cerecl: I see we are going around in circles. I consider the punishment in this case to be grossly disproportional to the actual faults.I disagree with an in-
29 cmf: Punishment? You actually think they did this to punish the parents? For what? I'm not saying the government did everything right. But between what th
30 Cerecl: Let me rephrase, there is no evidence that they considered a more gradual escalation in the way they approached this case. Punishment is clearly not
31 cmf: The first visit was Jan 7 and the last May 11 with visits in between. Have no idea if there was a formal escalation but it seems clear they were give
32 Aesma: I must have skipped the part where the children were permanently removed. I kind of doubt that's even possible, unless maybe for people facing decades
33 Cerecl: That was why I said the parents were boneheaded. It seemed that they did not take the Norwegian Child Welfare agency very seriously. The result was o
34 cmf: May be considered nitpick but I think it is an important difference. I'm confident all problems were valid, some were serious, most probably not. Obv
35 MillwallSean: Bone headed parents? No, the mother beat an infant... Its not about warnings or help if you beat an infant, there are no excuses to that. The authorit
36 KiwiRob: This is only when the children are in foster care, should the children be adopted all visiting rights for the birth parents are cancelled; when the c
37 Cerecl: TBF I don't consider it valid for the authority to tell the parents how they should hold their children or how large a house they must live in. Howev
38 L410Turbolet: Irrelevant. They were living in Norway, remember? What happened to the good 'ol "When in Rome... "? BTW, female circumcision or so called honor killi
39 MillwallSean: The older child has learning difficulties thats believed to come from abuse. The young has shown signs of being abused on a continuous basis. The mot
40 cmf: Disagree as to holding. You better be sure to support the head. As to the size of the house. It would take a very small home for that to be valid and
41 KiwiRob: Could have been worse, there aren't many Indians in Norway but ther are hundreds of thousand's of Pakistanis.
42 Cerecl: I take your point but the examples given are inappropriate. How is killing safe??? Exactly my point. Thank you. Again, I doubt the county board would
43 cmf: Let's not forget that the tingrett went along with children welfare. And with them taking more time to reach their conclusion it is reasonable to ass
44 L410Turbolet: "Safely practiced" since they are an acceptable cultural norm.
45 Cerecl: Again, this case has nothing to do with corruption. A government worker who is not corrupt is fully capable of making the wrong decision (not saying
46 BarfBag: Very interesting article on the topic by a Norwegian in an Indian newspaper: The iron hand that rocks the cradle India isn't doing enough by simply re
47 Aesma: Maybe an immediate resolution, but also a diplomatic disaster !
48 Cerecl: Frankly, this article struck me as a little biased. It reads like the author has an axe to grind with the system. I found it difficult to believe tha
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