NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2008 times:
I'm not often surprised by politics - especially European politics - but this article astonished me. The first few paragraphs pretty well 'say it all':-
"The EU will have to agree the national budgets of heavily indebted countries under a deal to be signed tomorrow at a summit in Brussels attended by David Cameron.
"The move will mean Greece losing control over its own budget, after Germany and the International Monetary Fund laid down increasingly harsh conditions for the indebted nation to receive its second £100 billion eurozone bail-out.
"With the country on the brink of default, Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the IMF, yesterday revealed that a “fiscal compact” was set to be signed by European Union leaders at their summit tomorrow."
I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.......
The trouble is, almost all the EU countries have serious problems - but, country to country, the problems are not all the same. If it is instituted, 'government' by the EU (particularly in the Eurozone) would consist almost entirely of instructions to cut government spending, raise taxes, reduce pensions and allowances etc.. That would probably be the worst possible solution for most EU countries, it would simply make the impending European (and worldwide) recession/'downturn' that much deeper and that much longer-lasting.......
Hoping against hope that it doesn't happen. If it does it'll 'hit' us here in Australia as well as just Europe. I certainly can't see the non-Eurozone countries standing for it, hopefully it'll get vetoed.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2696 posts, RR: 25 Reply 1, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1999 times:
I'm not too up to par on Euro politics either, but it seems like they are in an ineffective gray area. They either need more freedom and have the EU as a very broad guideline, or they need to give the EU the power to actually do stuff. Setting policies that countries "should follow" aren't usually followed when it is bad for that country.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1927 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): "The EU will have to agree the national budgets of heavily indebted countries under a deal to be signed tomorrow at a summit in Brussels attended by David Cameron.
"The move will mean Greece losing control over its own budget, after Germany and the International Monetary Fund laid down increasingly harsh conditions for the indebted nation to receive its second £100 billion eurozone bail-out.
"With the country on the brink of default, Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the IMF, yesterday revealed that a “fiscal compact” was set to be signed by European Union leaders at their summit tomorrow."
If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy and effectively a new colonialism using debt as pretext.
I'm shocked that this has even been allowed to go public. It is breathtaking in it's arrogance and implication.
That is not to say that Greece are not to a large degree responsible for their financial situation, but subverting the democratic will of a nation can simply not be considered acceptable. Ever.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
bjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 303 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1913 times:
I do wonder if the blame for Greece's problems are equally shared between their desire to be in the Euro, and the EU's obsession with one currency.
Had the EU enforced the rules they set for joining, I doubt Greece, Italy, and a number of the other countries who are now in deep poo would have been allowed in. Unfortunately, they 'bent' the rules and set a time bomb which we we no doubt all suffer from now.
As for he meeting tomorrow? Well, Germany is the Economic power behind the EU, and he who has the cash, calls the tune, so unless the Greeks do as Shamrock supposes, then yes, it will be the beginning of the end of independence of fiscal policy in the the Euro Zone. Will that lead to loss of other independence? Yes, of course, all other policy in a state is dependent upon money.
The problem with the EU, is that 2 countries want to run Europe, Germany and France, in the main it's run for their benefit, and thats why I think it's a bad idea, the worst think the UK ever did was ditching the economic links with the Commonwealth and joining the grace that is the EU.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1903 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2):
If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
That's what I hope as a German taxpayer . We shouldn't throw Greece out because markets would then fear the same for Portugal, Spain and Italy. So it's up to Greece - no one is forcing any rules on them. It's fairly simple: take the money and accept the rules or leave the Euro. It would be best to hold a referendum in Greece about this.
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.....
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy
We have to bear in mind that democracy in Greece has already been 'subverted' - Papademos is a former banker and is not an MP, he wasn't 'elected' as Greek PM, he was 'installed' by the EU 'powers that be'..........
Quoting pelican (Reply 4): Sure, the evil Huns are back.
Sorry pelican, didn't mean it to come over that way. It's Merkel I can't stand, not the whole country.
However, this story says that the whole idea does in fact come from Germany:-
"(Reuters) - Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.
"There are internal discussions within the Euro group and proposals, one of which comes from Germany, on how to constructively treat country aid programmes that are continuously off track, whether this can simply be ignored or whether we say that's enough," the source said."
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 3954 posts, RR: 29 Reply 6, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
I thought that what the OP was quoting only was going to be applied to Greece. And I agree with Shamrock. The Greeks have had enough. It´s time for them to say enough and go their own way. What Merkel does not seem to get is that austerity can only go a certain way to resolve the troubles of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy or Ireland. You need growth too. Otherwise sooner or later your recession will turn into a depression and I´d like to see how the EU deals with THAT.
Greece is just not going to be fixed. They are bankrupt in every sense. What good does "austerity" bring when "austerity" has become your way of life for a while now.
And now they are being told a "monitor" from the EU is going to have the final say over their budgetary decisions? Come on. I understand that those who are forking over the new $145 billion Euro package want some assurance it will be used well but you can´t humilliate a sovereign state that way. I´m not sure wether Merkel wants to make an example of Greece, she just doesn´t get it, or she actually wants Greece to quit the Eurozone voluntarily, that way she won´t have any "blood" on her hands. But she´s not stupid and knows perfectly well Greece won´t accept her terms.
Being in the Eurozone is doing more damage to Greece at this stage than remaining there. I wonder when will they say enough.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 8626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1854 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
Sure, give the Greeks all the money and let them go on as ineffective as before? Imho its time for Greece raise hands and quit play as they are not up to standard. They are an incompetitive drain for the Union, were, among other intolerable things, tax evasion at criminal levels is the sport of the so-called elite.
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy and effectively a new colonialism using debt as pretext.
In an emergency you should be able to do things otherwise not permissible. The EU can only work if everybody follows the rules and takes care. Greece is irresponsibly indebted due to its own faults mainly, they didnt take care and obviously used the EU as a comfy bed for some time. If it comes to debt going through the roof, do you think your own bank is "democratic"? They´ll take your house and drop you and your family on the street, thats it. Even in worst case that wont happen to Greece. And, btw whats with the democracies in the paying countries, they have no right to take action?
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.......
Of cause Berlin has a large say here, it must - we Germans are the biggest payers, so what do you expect Merkel to do, pay and shut up? How undemocratic that would be.
Rich Greeks are said to have stored about 200 billion (Euros or Dollars, who cares) in Switzerland. Isnt it high time for THOSE "democratic" people to become patriotic instead of egoistic?
Greece stands for less than 5% of the EU economy. If 5% fail, so what? If I would loose 5% of my money, I would have a bad day, maybe two, but next week would be fine. So how can a mere 5% severely shake the tree of the European money system I cannot understand. But, well, money issues have never been of much interest to me.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
Quoting pelican (Reply 4): Sure, the evil Huns are back.
It's the pathological "anything european"-hater NAV20 quoting the similarly "euro-skeptic" (love that euphemism) Daily Telegraph, what do you expect?
He's still recovering from the fact that AF447 was actually the pilot's fault (well at least they were Europeans!), and his conspiracy theories he spewed about Airbus for year shockingly didn't pan out.
bjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 303 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
na
But it's not just Greece is it?
The there's another 3 or Countries that are likely to go the same way. So your 5% is more likely to be 20 or more.
The logic is that if you have a common currency, then financial decisions must be made centrally. I'm not sure that most the majority of Europe is really that ready for that, and in any case, 'centrally' means Germany and France in European terms.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1772 times:
Quoting na (Reply 7): Greece stands for less than 5% of the EU economy. If 5% fail, so what?
Trouble is, na, Greece may be 'in the news' at the moment but it isn't even the 'worst case' of the Eurozone at the moment. That 'distinction' currently belongs to Portugal, which just about can't borrow money at all at the moment, even at penal interest rates:-
"More selling was then sparked by Portugal’s removal from Citigroup’s European Bond index, which many investors track, because of its fall to junk status. The other main credit rating agencies, Moody’s and Fitch, downgraded Portugal to junk last year. In the eurozone, only Greece is also rated junk by all the main agencies.
"John Stopford, head of fixed income at Investec Asset Management, says: “S&P’s action was important. Once a country is downgraded to junk, it is hard to see an easy way back into the markets – and Portugal is running out of time. It is supposed to access the bond markets again next year.”
"More critically, the fear is that should Portugal follow Greece, it could spark default contagion to the bigger, more strategically important economies of Italy and Spain, which in turn would reignite fears of a eurozone break-up that undermined the markets at the end of last year."
So there is a grave risk of 'contagion,' Greece leaving the EU leading to a string of further 'defaults.' Italy being the key economy - in Eurozone terms it is undoubtedly 'too big to fail.' Basically, if Greece defaults and is seen to 'get away with it,' it could mean up to 40% of the Eurozone, in terms of population, following suit within a year or two.
I think that sort of thing is quite likely to happen. Maybe a 40% probability. I very much agree with DeltaMD90's comment at the top of the thread:-
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): I'm not too up to par on Euro politics either, but it seems like they are in an ineffective gray area. They either need more freedom and have the EU as a very broad guideline, or they need to give the EU the power to actually do stuff.
To my mind it's becoming increasingly clear that the Eurozone was badly-designed from the start; a common currency with no truly-sovereign 'central bank,' an arch without a keystone. If places like Greece still had their own currency they could set to work to solve their problems in the traditional way, by de-valueing; but that option is not open to them since they're stuck with the Euro.
So my solution to the problems facing the Eurozone would be to accept 'the verdict of the markets,' phase out the Euro in the most orderly fashion possible, and have each member country revert to its previous independent currency.
But, with people like 'Merkozy' in charge, that just ain't going to happen..........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1757 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5): "(Reuters) - Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.
What budget? There is no budget left. If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant. At this moment the original management and the company´s owners lose all power to make decisions.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 8626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
Quoting bjcc (Reply 9):
na
But it's not just Greece is it?
The there's another 3 or Countries that are likely to go the same way. So your 5% is more likely to be 20 or more.
The logic is that if you have a common currency, then financial decisions must be made centrally. I'm not sure that most the majority of Europe is really that ready for that, and in any case, 'centrally' means Germany and France in European terms.
Yes and no. A common currency only works if everyone´s on the same track. A "lazy nephew" taking uncles money for granted cant be tolerated forever. Also Portugal and Italy are not quite that bad off as Greece. Certainly Italy is too big to fail, and I do not expect that to happen, now that the aging facelifted gigolo is finally quitting reponsibility of his country.
Central rule means Germany and France. Cant be otherwise as it wont work. That these two countries represent the biggest economies of cause must mean in a democratic union they should have the most say in it. But not the only say. If all other countries should disagree Merkel and Sarkozy can do nothing. At the moment I have the feeling that the smaller countries feel comfortable to keep their mouths shut and let "Merkozy" make the "bad" decisions.
I do not think that the Euro should be terminated, as only as a Union Europe can equal the economical superpowers. I only think that not every dubious (sorry) member of the European family should have been made member of it.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10): If places like Greece still had their own currency they could set to work to solve their problems in the traditional way, by de-valueing; but that option is not open to them since they're stuck with the Euro.
They wanted it that way because that promised growth. And this growth happened, Greece was a winner of the Euro zone for some time, they only were very irresponsible and their leaders (and economical elite as well) are, obviously, not trustworthy. A system, were tax-evasion, cash- and handshake-business is/was the norm, cannot be a member of a gentleman´s club if it doesnt adopt.
Of cause Greece can drop out of the Euro, re-introduce the Drachme and de-value. But then perhaps it´ll loose 50% instantly, while the rich Greeks, who are largely responsible for the tragedy, harbour their money in Franke, Dollars and Euros in Zurich and elsewhere. Disgusting.
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1020 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
Ah our mate NAV20 used to say Airbus would be bankrupt, used to say the Euro was doomed.
Now its Brusells taking over Greece and with a link from the Daily Torygraph...
So many wishes, so many wet dreams for our NAV20 but both Airbus and the Euro stands as strong as ever.
The german kanslers speaches have been spot on. This will be a slow process were those that have overspent will have to correct their habits. they will struggle for a few years.
the solutions isnt a quick fix, like we could have chosen, and like the UK and US has chosen but a change towards a sustainable way. It will hurt and it will take time but for everyday things will slowly slowly improve.
Greece is now the fourth largest investor on the Swedish stockexchange.
There is money in Greece. Hidden.
If the EU is to spend another cent in Greece. I want very very strict rules. And I expect Greece to do the reforms promised and more. if not, no money. And just like someone thatd defaulted his/her loans have to go to the bank and ask for help, get scrutinised and controlled Greece now has to follow its creditors wishes.
if not default. By all means defualt and see what coems out of that. Wont be pretty for Greece thats for sure.
The idea that a country can print money to solve their issues is in my view absurd. Its not sustainable. those that use this shortcut will eventually be caught and they will struggle a lot. I hope we dont have to see financial doping in Europe. Thats bad for our long term success.
Greece are a part of Europe. Greeks are good people.
But you cant just ignore debit and credit forever. You cant have the one of the best social security systems when the economy is one of the worst in Europe. Something has to give.
In this case Greece has been given a lot of our taxmoney. As assistance.
They agreed to certain measures for this. They havent been implemented. Greece still threads water and now needs even more money. Why on earth should we pay a cent more until they have done whats needed. I sure dont want to pay my tax to a country that doesnt implement basic financial reform. That doesnt balance it books despite being given a debt relief countries like Ireland, Latvia or Estonia would have died for.
There is soemthing wrong when people expect not to pay for what they get. there is somethihg wrong when a country that would be 200% of GDP in debt in 2 years time still doesnt see the urgency to balance its books.
You can only spend what you have.
You cant expect greeks to retire at 55 anymore. they just like their richer cousins in Northern Europe has to realise that 65 or 67 is what the future holds.
Look at Italy. As always the Italians came through at the end. Now the interest rates on loans are going down, getting cheaper everytime they borrow on the international market. their bondsales are oversubscribed at rates they couldnt even dream about 3 months ago. Same with Spain.
Greece needs to do more (Portugal too). Greece also needs to realise that they need fundamental change not just scratch the surface. Fundamental change will cost and will be hard. Its a decade of hardship in front of the greeks.
Thats the price you pay for living above your means. Do like the Estonians and Latvians deal with it, fast and without any compromise. the faster you deal with it the faster the economy will pick up again. No shortcuts.
I also love this rightwing mantra about growth.
Its not like growth hasnt happened in the countries thats balanced its books. Steady growth, responsible financial management all works very well in some countries. I always wonder why rightwing press keeps on talking about growth like Germany, Sweden, Finland etc hasnt seen any.
Austerity and balanced books works very well and creates steady growth.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 15, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1738 times:
Economists have calculated what would happen if Greece would drop out of the Euro. Greece is a country, which while it exports some goods, there is steep competetion with other countries producing these goods, mainly agrarian products and raw metals and bauxite. In all cases Greece is not a major player, but is depending on market changes coming from the big players (in case of the metals / ores, Australia, China, Russia, Canada and Brazil).
Equally in tourism they are competing not just with the other mediterranean countries including northern Africa, but other tourist destinations worldwide, some of them with still cheaper labour costs.
Greece imports more than it exports and, unlike Argentina ten years ago, it isn´t big enough to sustain it´s own population. Leaving the Euro would be a bigger disaster for Greece than swallowing the austerity measures.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1686 times:
Greeks dont want to leave the Euro and know tough times will last for the next 20 years! A decade is something that would be a huge bonus but not likely.
Strikes and protests a minimal these days and the public have resigned to the fact there is no other way .
Indeed there is and its about time the tax cheats had their money seized and properties seized and put in jail. Will the Swiss hand over the money from their banks if requested ?
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 13): You cant expect greeks to retire at 55 anymore. they just like their richer cousins in Northern Europe has to realise that 65 or 67 is what the future holds.
My Uncle retired at 66 and my Aunt will retire from four decades of service as a school teacher this June at the age of 67 . We need to seperate fact from fiction here guys ! My Aunts wage was slashed in the last year and it wasnt high to begin with . My family have paid their taxes all their lives and been good citizens. The political elite and business tycoons have taken the piss and they should be held to account. The normal everyday people are suffering. If the move to let Brussels take control would finally bring these cheats to account and make these the targets of huge taxes and cuts and give some relief to the ones on the breadline then I say bring it on .
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1652 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 16): My Uncle retired at 66 and my Aunt will retire from four decades of service as a school teacher this June at the age of 67 . We need to seperate fact from fiction here guys !
Totally agreed. It is hard to listen to "recommendations" from people who parrot some outlandish fiction on one hand and claim to be presenting reasonable opinions on the other.
It is even harder when they mention what is "wrong" in each of the countries (always mentioning Greece, Portugal etc. as if any of those countries have anything in common with the reason or solution of their crisis) and completely skipping financial black holes such as the UK.
And it is always annoying seeing Germans patting themselves on the back for being so gosh darn responsible when it was German banks who fueled the Greek collapse along with the Greeks themselves, expecting cheap and quick money.
But it is not quite truthful (as if that ever stopped the Telegraph) to claim that the EU will be "governed" from Bruxelles, let alone Berlin.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 18, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): But it is not quite truthful (as if that ever stopped the Telegraph) to claim that the EU will be "governed" from Bruxelles, let alone Berlin.
Actually, my apologies, the thread title is "European Union to be governed from Brussels" - and well, yes. Yes it will be. Just like today and yesterday and the day before.
So NAV20, yes the EU is to be governed from Brussels.
YokoTsuno From Singapore, joined Feb 2011, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Quoting na (Reply 12): Central rule means Germany and France. Cant be otherwise as it wont work. That these two countries represent the biggest economies of cause must mean in a democratic union they should have the most say in it.
IMHO as an outsider it would be very naive to believe that that would ever work in a multi-cultural society like Europe, for the simple reason that a national from for instance Germany will always place the interests of Germany before that of Europe as a whole. This inevitably leads to a situation where smaller and countries at the outskirts feel second class and want to pull out in the long term.
If one day I read in the newspapers here that Germany and France are ruling Europe chances are I have a serious drug addiction.
Quokkas From Australia, joined Jan 2012, 440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1644 times:
So what are the options available to Greece?
1) An orderly default where they obtain some write-down of debt with the provision of transitional finance while they address the core issues. This will be very painful but may be preferable to;
2) An uncontrolled default without any guarantees of new financing, or if financing can be achieved future loans may be at a much higher rate of interest. This carries the risk of a complete breakdown of the economy and government services and could have a wider impact across the Euro Zone.
3) Remaining in the Euro Zone and accepting tighter oversight of its budget as a cost of future funding. May be unpalatable to those who belief national pride is more important than financial responsibility and will still produce some very real pain.
4) Leaving the Euro Zone and adopting its own currency which may devalue very rapidly. This may appear to make Greek goods and services "more competitive" but if the debts are written in Euros it will not solve the problem unless the Euro falls at a faster rate. Hyper-inflation becomes a real problem.
Each approach has its own difficulties and may not even solve the problem. While the politicians and financial advisers run around with understandably worried expressions (they are probably as much in the dark as the rest of us) none of the solutions offered by the pundits is without risk and whatever is decided will cause real pain. And as in every crisis, despite the claim that we are all in the same boat, it is the passengers in steerage and the crew who will go down with the ship while those in first and the officers will make it safely into the lifeboats.
In a world where money is valued more than people, I don't know what the solution is.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3095 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11): If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant.
A country is not the same as a company. As for the court appointed accountant, been there, done that. Have you checked who is running the country? Even our PM is appointed.
Very good post. I will only disagree with two things. The social security (including healthcare) system in Greece is not the best in Europe, far from it.
Also, you cant expect some greeks to retire at 55 anymore. Certain groups will need to lose the privilege asap but no need to present it as the norm, official (and non-Greek) data show a different picture than you and some media describe for this issue.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): Quoting BBC:
Greece has rejected outright German proposals for the EU to hold power over its budget.
To be expected, really. Greek politicians have agreed to enough crazy terms that undermine present and future sovereignty. That would be a step too far. I wouldn't mind sending someone in charge of tax collection and political corruption (whether that includes greek or foreign parties), though. That, I would welcome.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
Quoting na (Reply 7): Sure, give the Greeks all the money and let them go on as ineffective as before? Imho its time for Greece raise hands and quit play as they are not up to standard. They are an incompetitive drain for the Union, were, among other intolerable things, tax evasion at criminal levels is the sport of the so-called elite.
Who is saying "let them carry on as before"? For sure, they are not "carrying on as before" at all - they are now in a depression, because of the "Austerity only" policy prescribed by the Troika (read Merkozy) which is only going to be self defeating. It's all well and good acting like the School principle and wagging your finger at the misbehaving children sitting in the back of class, but if the punishment condemns the punished to further misbehaviour, then you have to ask if your methods are really working. Every leading economist has now stood up and said Austerity is ineffective, or damaging, or both. Yet Merkozy still insist on it.
Quoting na (Reply 7): In an emergency you should be able to do things otherwise not permissible. The EU can only work if everybody follows the rules and takes care. Greece is irresponsibly indebted due to its own faults mainly, they didnt take care and obviously used the EU as a comfy bed for some time. If it comes to debt going through the roof, do you think your own bank is "democratic"? They´ll take your house and drop you and your family on the street, thats it. Even in worst case that wont happen to Greece. And, btw whats with the democracies in the paying countries, they have no right to take action?
So, you think that in a FINANCIAL Emergency, the elected representatives of a nation should be replaced or overthrown?? This is democracy? This is Germany's vision for solving problems?? God help us if it is - your Chanceller is doing a very effective job at ensuring that NOBODY in any other country will ever allow any further erosion of sovereignty or surrender of powers to the EU.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11): What budget? There is no budget left. If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant. At this moment the original management and the company´s owners lose all power to make decisions.
Greece is not a company.
Right, i'm sorry, but it's time to call BS on this one. If the majority of Germans honestly support the complete subversion of a nation's electoral process, than Germany deserves every single accusation of modern day colonialism it gets.
Nobody expects you to just hand over cheques to states who will not undertake necessary reform. That is only fair to expect something in return. But to surrender their government? How would YOU feel if Britain or Spain did the same to Germany when your country was violating the Maastricht rules? How would YOU have felt about being ruled from London or Dublin or Madrid?
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 23, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1530 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 22):
Right, i'm sorry, but it's time to call BS on this one. If the majority of Germans honestly support the complete subversion of a nation's electoral process, than Germany deserves every single accusation of modern day colonialism it gets.
Nobody expects you to just hand over cheques to states who will not undertake necessary reform. That is only fair to expect something in return. But to surrender their government? How would YOU feel if Britain or Spain did the same to Germany when your country was violating the Maastricht rules? How would YOU have felt about being ruled from London or Dublin or Madrid?
Over here communes can (and have) gone under supervision. This means that the elected mayor or town council lost their right to make decisions and all their decisions are subject to an auditor appointed by the next higher level (state), which has to come up for the deficit incured by the commune.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1524 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 21): I wouldn't mind sending someone in charge of tax collection and political corruption (whether that includes greek or foreign parties), though. That, I would welcome.
This will probably be one of the cases most heavily opposed by the Greek politicians and their cronies (and not just Greek ones, all politicians have their hands in the cookie jar).
Jan
[Edited 2012-01-29 11:13:50]
25 Braybuddy: I agree.. Here the "elite" (ie politicians and senior civil servants) pay themselves more, and in some cases, much more, in wages and pensions than t
26 Pyrex: The European Union has always been built against the desire of its people, and will continue to as long as the sheepish people of Europe allow it to -
27 L410Turbolet: I have the feeling that the leaders of France and Germany (and unfortunately it's not Germany who has upper hand in this duo) really have no clue and
28 pelican: Too bad that French banks played a bigger role in Greece than German banks. And btw don't forget the role Goldman Sachs played in Greece. Could be ,
29 NAV20: Mixup there, L410Turbojet, not my quote. However, on past form, I do think that that is the most likely outcome of today's 'summit.' Continued disagr
31 Aesma: Yeah, I found the title funny too, Brussels is indeed the capital of the Union. Well, along with Strasbourg, that is. Personally I don't really like
32 L410Turbolet: Perhaps I am just too cynical, but I am afraid any power and sovereignty surrendered to Brussels is not coming back. Ever. Do you really think that t
33 Aesma: Ever is a long time. If all works well and we end up directly electing a president of the EU or something like that, there is no need for it to come
34 MD11Engineer: First give the elected EU parliament a set of real teeth and get rid of the unelected commision. Jan
35 shamrock604: Now this I do agree with. The issue I have with the current proposal is basically that it seems designed to humiliate the Greek nation (have we not l
36 Asturias: The French are as obsessed over Greece as the Germans, they're just not patting themselves on the back while they're at it. And you can count on that
37 NAV20: Two 'rumours' that seem to 'ring true,' reported by the Guardian. The first is that - as most of us expected - the Greek problem is unlikely even to b
38 Asturias: It has served us well thus far, NAV20, which demonstrates well how uncritical eurosceptics (like the Daily Telegraph for instance) don't actually und
39 Aesma: About the sanctions, they're stupid anyway. Financial sanctions when you're already in trouble financially... Financial sanctions and then a bailout ?
40 shamrock604: But if there are no sanctions, then what is the point in having the rules to begin with? If we simply have rules, then we are no further than we were
41 offloaded: How would you propose to acheive this? The minimum wage in Portugal is €485/month, Belgium €1499, Luxembourg €1800, Estonia €290. As a small
42 NAV20: I've been trying to find some 'details' of what the summit actually decided. It's pretty clear that nothing at all was decided about Greece. On the 'm
43 Asturias: My Lord, what is this? Are we in the 90s? Even the goddam Telegraph has quit pushing that lie. No don't keep that in mind, because it is meaningless.
44 offloaded: Are you are saying that normal auditors, and not the ECA signed off the EU's accounts? Which auditors? Who are these mystery people? Arthur Andersen?
45 Asturias: What a load of manure. Is Google broken where you live? http://bit.ly/EUmyth4 http://jebadel.com/visionsoftomorrow/?p=10 If the European Union gives
46 DeltaMD90: I know in US politics there sometimes is an easy solution to a problem that everyone agrees upon, but nobody really acts on (like our spending problem
47 MD11Engineer: What I think is that the German government, the French one and the ECB want to have the rules in place to prevent countries becoming complacent after
48 Asturias: Putting it that way, I reckon the easiest way to understand the problem in the Eurozone is to look at its most basic form and in a specific region. P
49 NAV20: There IS an idea that would work, DeltaMD90 - that, indeed, DID work in pulling the developed world out of the 1929 Great Depression, and also 'recon
50 slz396: Of course the veto power of the UK, just as every other EU country, is not cancelled and annulled (the EU is not the honours forfeiture committee, lol
51 NAV20: Striking article in the Independent, which canvassed the views of a number of 'experts' on the current situation. For once, most of the contributors r
52 lewis: Please do not mix up EU and Eurozone. Being an EU member does not require Eurozone membership and a country can stay in the EU even if it has to leav
53 janmnastami: Those "experts" are all from the UK or the USA, with the expection of Kinnock and Rehn.
54 Stratofish: Well, it seems like everyone is forgetting that Greece is being monitored and aided financially by two INSTITUTIONS the EU and the IMF. While the IMF
55 NAV20: With respect, lewis, that's exactly why I used the term 'EU' in my comment. I certainly don't envisage Greece (or any of the other countries that are
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