NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2008 times:
I'm not often surprised by politics - especially European politics - but this article astonished me. The first few paragraphs pretty well 'say it all':-
"The EU will have to agree the national budgets of heavily indebted countries under a deal to be signed tomorrow at a summit in Brussels attended by David Cameron.
"The move will mean Greece losing control over its own budget, after Germany and the International Monetary Fund laid down increasingly harsh conditions for the indebted nation to receive its second £100 billion eurozone bail-out.
"With the country on the brink of default, Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the IMF, yesterday revealed that a “fiscal compact” was set to be signed by European Union leaders at their summit tomorrow."
I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.......
The trouble is, almost all the EU countries have serious problems - but, country to country, the problems are not all the same. If it is instituted, 'government' by the EU (particularly in the Eurozone) would consist almost entirely of instructions to cut government spending, raise taxes, reduce pensions and allowances etc.. That would probably be the worst possible solution for most EU countries, it would simply make the impending European (and worldwide) recession/'downturn' that much deeper and that much longer-lasting.......
Hoping against hope that it doesn't happen. If it does it'll 'hit' us here in Australia as well as just Europe. I certainly can't see the non-Eurozone countries standing for it, hopefully it'll get vetoed.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2696 posts, RR: 25 Reply 1, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1999 times:
I'm not too up to par on Euro politics either, but it seems like they are in an ineffective gray area. They either need more freedom and have the EU as a very broad guideline, or they need to give the EU the power to actually do stuff. Setting policies that countries "should follow" aren't usually followed when it is bad for that country.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1927 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): "The EU will have to agree the national budgets of heavily indebted countries under a deal to be signed tomorrow at a summit in Brussels attended by David Cameron.
"The move will mean Greece losing control over its own budget, after Germany and the International Monetary Fund laid down increasingly harsh conditions for the indebted nation to receive its second £100 billion eurozone bail-out.
"With the country on the brink of default, Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the IMF, yesterday revealed that a “fiscal compact” was set to be signed by European Union leaders at their summit tomorrow."
If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy and effectively a new colonialism using debt as pretext.
I'm shocked that this has even been allowed to go public. It is breathtaking in it's arrogance and implication.
That is not to say that Greece are not to a large degree responsible for their financial situation, but subverting the democratic will of a nation can simply not be considered acceptable. Ever.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
bjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 303 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1913 times:
I do wonder if the blame for Greece's problems are equally shared between their desire to be in the Euro, and the EU's obsession with one currency.
Had the EU enforced the rules they set for joining, I doubt Greece, Italy, and a number of the other countries who are now in deep poo would have been allowed in. Unfortunately, they 'bent' the rules and set a time bomb which we we no doubt all suffer from now.
As for he meeting tomorrow? Well, Germany is the Economic power behind the EU, and he who has the cash, calls the tune, so unless the Greeks do as Shamrock supposes, then yes, it will be the beginning of the end of independence of fiscal policy in the the Euro Zone. Will that lead to loss of other independence? Yes, of course, all other policy in a state is dependent upon money.
The problem with the EU, is that 2 countries want to run Europe, Germany and France, in the main it's run for their benefit, and thats why I think it's a bad idea, the worst think the UK ever did was ditching the economic links with the Commonwealth and joining the grace that is the EU.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1903 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2):
If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
That's what I hope as a German taxpayer . We shouldn't throw Greece out because markets would then fear the same for Portugal, Spain and Italy. So it's up to Greece - no one is forcing any rules on them. It's fairly simple: take the money and accept the rules or leave the Euro. It would be best to hold a referendum in Greece about this.
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.....
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 5, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy
We have to bear in mind that democracy in Greece has already been 'subverted' - Papademos is a former banker and is not an MP, he wasn't 'elected' as Greek PM, he was 'installed' by the EU 'powers that be'..........
Quoting pelican (Reply 4): Sure, the evil Huns are back.
Sorry pelican, didn't mean it to come over that way. It's Merkel I can't stand, not the whole country.
However, this story says that the whole idea does in fact come from Germany:-
"(Reuters) - Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.
"There are internal discussions within the Euro group and proposals, one of which comes from Germany, on how to constructively treat country aid programmes that are continuously off track, whether this can simply be ignored or whether we say that's enough," the source said."
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 3954 posts, RR: 29 Reply 6, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
I thought that what the OP was quoting only was going to be applied to Greece. And I agree with Shamrock. The Greeks have had enough. It´s time for them to say enough and go their own way. What Merkel does not seem to get is that austerity can only go a certain way to resolve the troubles of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy or Ireland. You need growth too. Otherwise sooner or later your recession will turn into a depression and I´d like to see how the EU deals with THAT.
Greece is just not going to be fixed. They are bankrupt in every sense. What good does "austerity" bring when "austerity" has become your way of life for a while now.
And now they are being told a "monitor" from the EU is going to have the final say over their budgetary decisions? Come on. I understand that those who are forking over the new $145 billion Euro package want some assurance it will be used well but you can´t humilliate a sovereign state that way. I´m not sure wether Merkel wants to make an example of Greece, she just doesn´t get it, or she actually wants Greece to quit the Eurozone voluntarily, that way she won´t have any "blood" on her hands. But she´s not stupid and knows perfectly well Greece won´t accept her terms.
Being in the Eurozone is doing more damage to Greece at this stage than remaining there. I wonder when will they say enough.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 8626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1854 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): If I were Greece, I'd be sticking two fingers up at Merkel and saying "Too high a price - good bye" and then default.
Sure, give the Greeks all the money and let them go on as ineffective as before? Imho its time for Greece raise hands and quit play as they are not up to standard. They are an incompetitive drain for the Union, were, among other intolerable things, tax evasion at criminal levels is the sport of the so-called elite.
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2): You simply cannot give in to such demands - this is subversion of democracy and effectively a new colonialism using debt as pretext.
In an emergency you should be able to do things otherwise not permissible. The EU can only work if everybody follows the rules and takes care. Greece is irresponsibly indebted due to its own faults mainly, they didnt take care and obviously used the EU as a comfy bed for some time. If it comes to debt going through the roof, do you think your own bank is "democratic"? They´ll take your house and drop you and your family on the street, thats it. Even in worst case that wont happen to Greece. And, btw whats with the democracies in the paying countries, they have no right to take action?
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): I suppose that the only thing the article doesn't say is that, in practice, such 'government' would be coming from Berlin rather than Brussels.......
Of cause Berlin has a large say here, it must - we Germans are the biggest payers, so what do you expect Merkel to do, pay and shut up? How undemocratic that would be.
Rich Greeks are said to have stored about 200 billion (Euros or Dollars, who cares) in Switzerland. Isnt it high time for THOSE "democratic" people to become patriotic instead of egoistic?
Greece stands for less than 5% of the EU economy. If 5% fail, so what? If I would loose 5% of my money, I would have a bad day, maybe two, but next week would be fine. So how can a mere 5% severely shake the tree of the European money system I cannot understand. But, well, money issues have never been of much interest to me.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
Quoting pelican (Reply 4): Sure, the evil Huns are back.
It's the pathological "anything european"-hater NAV20 quoting the similarly "euro-skeptic" (love that euphemism) Daily Telegraph, what do you expect?
He's still recovering from the fact that AF447 was actually the pilot's fault (well at least they were Europeans!), and his conspiracy theories he spewed about Airbus for year shockingly didn't pan out.
bjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 303 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
na
But it's not just Greece is it?
The there's another 3 or Countries that are likely to go the same way. So your 5% is more likely to be 20 or more.
The logic is that if you have a common currency, then financial decisions must be made centrally. I'm not sure that most the majority of Europe is really that ready for that, and in any case, 'centrally' means Germany and France in European terms.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1772 times:
Quoting na (Reply 7): Greece stands for less than 5% of the EU economy. If 5% fail, so what?
Trouble is, na, Greece may be 'in the news' at the moment but it isn't even the 'worst case' of the Eurozone at the moment. That 'distinction' currently belongs to Portugal, which just about can't borrow money at all at the moment, even at penal interest rates:-
"More selling was then sparked by Portugal’s removal from Citigroup’s European Bond index, which many investors track, because of its fall to junk status. The other main credit rating agencies, Moody’s and Fitch, downgraded Portugal to junk last year. In the eurozone, only Greece is also rated junk by all the main agencies.
"John Stopford, head of fixed income at Investec Asset Management, says: “S&P’s action was important. Once a country is downgraded to junk, it is hard to see an easy way back into the markets – and Portugal is running out of time. It is supposed to access the bond markets again next year.”
"More critically, the fear is that should Portugal follow Greece, it could spark default contagion to the bigger, more strategically important economies of Italy and Spain, which in turn would reignite fears of a eurozone break-up that undermined the markets at the end of last year."
So there is a grave risk of 'contagion,' Greece leaving the EU leading to a string of further 'defaults.' Italy being the key economy - in Eurozone terms it is undoubtedly 'too big to fail.' Basically, if Greece defaults and is seen to 'get away with it,' it could mean up to 40% of the Eurozone, in terms of population, following suit within a year or two.
I think that sort of thing is quite likely to happen. Maybe a 40% probability. I very much agree with DeltaMD90's comment at the top of the thread:-
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): I'm not too up to par on Euro politics either, but it seems like they are in an ineffective gray area. They either need more freedom and have the EU as a very broad guideline, or they need to give the EU the power to actually do stuff.
To my mind it's becoming increasingly clear that the Eurozone was badly-designed from the start; a common currency with no truly-sovereign 'central bank,' an arch without a keystone. If places like Greece still had their own currency they could set to work to solve their problems in the traditional way, by de-valueing; but that option is not open to them since they're stuck with the Euro.
So my solution to the problems facing the Eurozone would be to accept 'the verdict of the markets,' phase out the Euro in the most orderly fashion possible, and have each member country revert to its previous independent currency.
But, with people like 'Merkozy' in charge, that just ain't going to happen..........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1757 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5): "(Reuters) - Germany is pushing for Greece to relinquish control over its budget policy to European institutions as part of discussions over a second rescue package, a European source told Reuters on Friday.
What budget? There is no budget left. If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant. At this moment the original management and the company´s owners lose all power to make decisions.
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 8626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
Quoting bjcc (Reply 9):
na
But it's not just Greece is it?
The there's another 3 or Countries that are likely to go the same way. So your 5% is more likely to be 20 or more.
The logic is that if you have a common currency, then financial decisions must be made centrally. I'm not sure that most the majority of Europe is really that ready for that, and in any case, 'centrally' means Germany and France in European terms.
Yes and no. A common currency only works if everyone´s on the same track. A "lazy nephew" taking uncles money for granted cant be tolerated forever. Also Portugal and Italy are not quite that bad off as Greece. Certainly Italy is too big to fail, and I do not expect that to happen, now that the aging facelifted gigolo is finally quitting reponsibility of his country.
Central rule means Germany and France. Cant be otherwise as it wont work. That these two countries represent the biggest economies of cause must mean in a democratic union they should have the most say in it. But not the only say. If all other countries should disagree Merkel and Sarkozy can do nothing. At the moment I have the feeling that the smaller countries feel comfortable to keep their mouths shut and let "Merkozy" make the "bad" decisions.
I do not think that the Euro should be terminated, as only as a Union Europe can equal the economical superpowers. I only think that not every dubious (sorry) member of the European family should have been made member of it.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10): If places like Greece still had their own currency they could set to work to solve their problems in the traditional way, by de-valueing; but that option is not open to them since they're stuck with the Euro.
They wanted it that way because that promised growth. And this growth happened, Greece was a winner of the Euro zone for some time, they only were very irresponsible and their leaders (and economical elite as well) are, obviously, not trustworthy. A system, were tax-evasion, cash- and handshake-business is/was the norm, cannot be a member of a gentleman´s club if it doesnt adopt.
Of cause Greece can drop out of the Euro, re-introduce the Drachme and de-value. But then perhaps it´ll loose 50% instantly, while the rich Greeks, who are largely responsible for the tragedy, harbour their money in Franke, Dollars and Euros in Zurich and elsewhere. Disgusting.
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1020 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
Ah our mate NAV20 used to say Airbus would be bankrupt, used to say the Euro was doomed.
Now its Brusells taking over Greece and with a link from the Daily Torygraph...
So many wishes, so many wet dreams for our NAV20 but both Airbus and the Euro stands as strong as ever.
The german kanslers speaches have been spot on. This will be a slow process were those that have overspent will have to correct their habits. they will struggle for a few years.
the solutions isnt a quick fix, like we could have chosen, and like the UK and US has chosen but a change towards a sustainable way. It will hurt and it will take time but for everyday things will slowly slowly improve.
Greece is now the fourth largest investor on the Swedish stockexchange.
There is money in Greece. Hidden.
If the EU is to spend another cent in Greece. I want very very strict rules. And I expect Greece to do the reforms promised and more. if not, no money. And just like someone thatd defaulted his/her loans have to go to the bank and ask for help, get scrutinised and controlled Greece now has to follow its creditors wishes.
if not default. By all means defualt and see what coems out of that. Wont be pretty for Greece thats for sure.
The idea that a country can print money to solve their issues is in my view absurd. Its not sustainable. those that use this shortcut will eventually be caught and they will struggle a lot. I hope we dont have to see financial doping in Europe. Thats bad for our long term success.
Greece are a part of Europe. Greeks are good people.
But you cant just ignore debit and credit forever. You cant have the one of the best social security systems when the economy is one of the worst in Europe. Something has to give.
In this case Greece has been given a lot of our taxmoney. As assistance.
They agreed to certain measures for this. They havent been implemented. Greece still threads water and now needs even more money. Why on earth should we pay a cent more until they have done whats needed. I sure dont want to pay my tax to a country that doesnt implement basic financial reform. That doesnt balance it books despite being given a debt relief countries like Ireland, Latvia or Estonia would have died for.
There is soemthing wrong when people expect not to pay for what they get. there is somethihg wrong when a country that would be 200% of GDP in debt in 2 years time still doesnt see the urgency to balance its books.
You can only spend what you have.
You cant expect greeks to retire at 55 anymore. they just like their richer cousins in Northern Europe has to realise that 65 or 67 is what the future holds.
Look at Italy. As always the Italians came through at the end. Now the interest rates on loans are going down, getting cheaper everytime they borrow on the international market. their bondsales are oversubscribed at rates they couldnt even dream about 3 months ago. Same with Spain.
Greece needs to do more (Portugal too). Greece also needs to realise that they need fundamental change not just scratch the surface. Fundamental change will cost and will be hard. Its a decade of hardship in front of the greeks.
Thats the price you pay for living above your means. Do like the Estonians and Latvians deal with it, fast and without any compromise. the faster you deal with it the faster the economy will pick up again. No shortcuts.
I also love this rightwing mantra about growth.
Its not like growth hasnt happened in the countries thats balanced its books. Steady growth, responsible financial management all works very well in some countries. I always wonder why rightwing press keeps on talking about growth like Germany, Sweden, Finland etc hasnt seen any.
Austerity and balanced books works very well and creates steady growth.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 15, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1738 times:
Economists have calculated what would happen if Greece would drop out of the Euro. Greece is a country, which while it exports some goods, there is steep competetion with other countries producing these goods, mainly agrarian products and raw metals and bauxite. In all cases Greece is not a major player, but is depending on market changes coming from the big players (in case of the metals / ores, Australia, China, Russia, Canada and Brazil).
Equally in tourism they are competing not just with the other mediterranean countries including northern Africa, but other tourist destinations worldwide, some of them with still cheaper labour costs.
Greece imports more than it exports and, unlike Argentina ten years ago, it isn´t big enough to sustain it´s own population. Leaving the Euro would be a bigger disaster for Greece than swallowing the austerity measures.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1686 times:
Greeks dont want to leave the Euro and know tough times will last for the next 20 years! A decade is something that would be a huge bonus but not likely.
Strikes and protests a minimal these days and the public have resigned to the fact there is no other way .
Indeed there is and its about time the tax cheats had their money seized and properties seized and put in jail. Will the Swiss hand over the money from their banks if requested ?
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 13): You cant expect greeks to retire at 55 anymore. they just like their richer cousins in Northern Europe has to realise that 65 or 67 is what the future holds.
My Uncle retired at 66 and my Aunt will retire from four decades of service as a school teacher this June at the age of 67 . We need to seperate fact from fiction here guys ! My Aunts wage was slashed in the last year and it wasnt high to begin with . My family have paid their taxes all their lives and been good citizens. The political elite and business tycoons have taken the piss and they should be held to account. The normal everyday people are suffering. If the move to let Brussels take control would finally bring these cheats to account and make these the targets of huge taxes and cuts and give some relief to the ones on the breadline then I say bring it on .
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1652 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 16): My Uncle retired at 66 and my Aunt will retire from four decades of service as a school teacher this June at the age of 67 . We need to seperate fact from fiction here guys !
Totally agreed. It is hard to listen to "recommendations" from people who parrot some outlandish fiction on one hand and claim to be presenting reasonable opinions on the other.
It is even harder when they mention what is "wrong" in each of the countries (always mentioning Greece, Portugal etc. as if any of those countries have anything in common with the reason or solution of their crisis) and completely skipping financial black holes such as the UK.
And it is always annoying seeing Germans patting themselves on the back for being so gosh darn responsible when it was German banks who fueled the Greek collapse along with the Greeks themselves, expecting cheap and quick money.
But it is not quite truthful (as if that ever stopped the Telegraph) to claim that the EU will be "governed" from Bruxelles, let alone Berlin.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 18, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): But it is not quite truthful (as if that ever stopped the Telegraph) to claim that the EU will be "governed" from Bruxelles, let alone Berlin.
Actually, my apologies, the thread title is "European Union to be governed from Brussels" - and well, yes. Yes it will be. Just like today and yesterday and the day before.
So NAV20, yes the EU is to be governed from Brussels.
YokoTsuno From Singapore, joined Feb 2011, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Quoting na (Reply 12): Central rule means Germany and France. Cant be otherwise as it wont work. That these two countries represent the biggest economies of cause must mean in a democratic union they should have the most say in it.
IMHO as an outsider it would be very naive to believe that that would ever work in a multi-cultural society like Europe, for the simple reason that a national from for instance Germany will always place the interests of Germany before that of Europe as a whole. This inevitably leads to a situation where smaller and countries at the outskirts feel second class and want to pull out in the long term.
If one day I read in the newspapers here that Germany and France are ruling Europe chances are I have a serious drug addiction.
Quokkas From Australia, joined Jan 2012, 440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1644 times:
So what are the options available to Greece?
1) An orderly default where they obtain some write-down of debt with the provision of transitional finance while they address the core issues. This will be very painful but may be preferable to;
2) An uncontrolled default without any guarantees of new financing, or if financing can be achieved future loans may be at a much higher rate of interest. This carries the risk of a complete breakdown of the economy and government services and could have a wider impact across the Euro Zone.
3) Remaining in the Euro Zone and accepting tighter oversight of its budget as a cost of future funding. May be unpalatable to those who belief national pride is more important than financial responsibility and will still produce some very real pain.
4) Leaving the Euro Zone and adopting its own currency which may devalue very rapidly. This may appear to make Greek goods and services "more competitive" but if the debts are written in Euros it will not solve the problem unless the Euro falls at a faster rate. Hyper-inflation becomes a real problem.
Each approach has its own difficulties and may not even solve the problem. While the politicians and financial advisers run around with understandably worried expressions (they are probably as much in the dark as the rest of us) none of the solutions offered by the pundits is without risk and whatever is decided will cause real pain. And as in every crisis, despite the claim that we are all in the same boat, it is the passengers in steerage and the crew who will go down with the ship while those in first and the officers will make it safely into the lifeboats.
In a world where money is valued more than people, I don't know what the solution is.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3095 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11): If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant.
A country is not the same as a company. As for the court appointed accountant, been there, done that. Have you checked who is running the country? Even our PM is appointed.
Very good post. I will only disagree with two things. The social security (including healthcare) system in Greece is not the best in Europe, far from it.
Also, you cant expect some greeks to retire at 55 anymore. Certain groups will need to lose the privilege asap but no need to present it as the norm, official (and non-Greek) data show a different picture than you and some media describe for this issue.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): Quoting BBC:
Greece has rejected outright German proposals for the EU to hold power over its budget.
To be expected, really. Greek politicians have agreed to enough crazy terms that undermine present and future sovereignty. That would be a step too far. I wouldn't mind sending someone in charge of tax collection and political corruption (whether that includes greek or foreign parties), though. That, I would welcome.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
Quoting na (Reply 7): Sure, give the Greeks all the money and let them go on as ineffective as before? Imho its time for Greece raise hands and quit play as they are not up to standard. They are an incompetitive drain for the Union, were, among other intolerable things, tax evasion at criminal levels is the sport of the so-called elite.
Who is saying "let them carry on as before"? For sure, they are not "carrying on as before" at all - they are now in a depression, because of the "Austerity only" policy prescribed by the Troika (read Merkozy) which is only going to be self defeating. It's all well and good acting like the School principle and wagging your finger at the misbehaving children sitting in the back of class, but if the punishment condemns the punished to further misbehaviour, then you have to ask if your methods are really working. Every leading economist has now stood up and said Austerity is ineffective, or damaging, or both. Yet Merkozy still insist on it.
Quoting na (Reply 7): In an emergency you should be able to do things otherwise not permissible. The EU can only work if everybody follows the rules and takes care. Greece is irresponsibly indebted due to its own faults mainly, they didnt take care and obviously used the EU as a comfy bed for some time. If it comes to debt going through the roof, do you think your own bank is "democratic"? They´ll take your house and drop you and your family on the street, thats it. Even in worst case that wont happen to Greece. And, btw whats with the democracies in the paying countries, they have no right to take action?
So, you think that in a FINANCIAL Emergency, the elected representatives of a nation should be replaced or overthrown?? This is democracy? This is Germany's vision for solving problems?? God help us if it is - your Chanceller is doing a very effective job at ensuring that NOBODY in any other country will ever allow any further erosion of sovereignty or surrender of powers to the EU.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11): What budget? There is no budget left. If a company goes insolvent or bankrupt, they get put under the control of a court appointed accountant. At this moment the original management and the company´s owners lose all power to make decisions.
Greece is not a company.
Right, i'm sorry, but it's time to call BS on this one. If the majority of Germans honestly support the complete subversion of a nation's electoral process, than Germany deserves every single accusation of modern day colonialism it gets.
Nobody expects you to just hand over cheques to states who will not undertake necessary reform. That is only fair to expect something in return. But to surrender their government? How would YOU feel if Britain or Spain did the same to Germany when your country was violating the Maastricht rules? How would YOU have felt about being ruled from London or Dublin or Madrid?
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 23, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1530 times:
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 22):
Right, i'm sorry, but it's time to call BS on this one. If the majority of Germans honestly support the complete subversion of a nation's electoral process, than Germany deserves every single accusation of modern day colonialism it gets.
Nobody expects you to just hand over cheques to states who will not undertake necessary reform. That is only fair to expect something in return. But to surrender their government? How would YOU feel if Britain or Spain did the same to Germany when your country was violating the Maastricht rules? How would YOU have felt about being ruled from London or Dublin or Madrid?
Over here communes can (and have) gone under supervision. This means that the elected mayor or town council lost their right to make decisions and all their decisions are subject to an auditor appointed by the next higher level (state), which has to come up for the deficit incured by the commune.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1524 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 21): I wouldn't mind sending someone in charge of tax collection and political corruption (whether that includes greek or foreign parties), though. That, I would welcome.
This will probably be one of the cases most heavily opposed by the Greek politicians and their cronies (and not just Greek ones, all politicians have their hands in the cookie jar).
Braybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 4959 posts, RR: 39 Reply 25, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 16): If the move to let Brussels take control would finally bring these cheats to account and make these the targets of huge taxes and cuts and give some relief to the ones on the breadline then I say bring it on .
I agree.. Here the "elite" (ie politicians and senior civil servants) pay themselves more, and in some cases, much more, in wages and pensions than their counterparts in other EU countries. Unfortunately the IMF/ECB/EU troika have only given our government broad directives, and it's up to the government to determine where the cuts are made and taxes raised.
A lot of people in this country would love to see them decide where the cuts are to be made, starting at the very top, which our politicians are extremely reluctant to do.
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 30 Reply 26, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1513 times:
The European Union has always been built against the desire of its people, and will continue to as long as the sheepish people of Europe allow it to - that is why the eurocRATs in Brussels start freaking out any time someone mentions the possibility of a referendum to address anything EU-related.
So yes, faceless, overpaid (plus, they don't actually pay any taxes), unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels run the show, e.g. telling you how much soy you can plant in your own land and how much you can charge for it,
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5320 posts, RR: 22 Reply 27, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1516 times:
Quoting na (Reply 12): At the moment I have the feeling that the smaller countries feel comfortable to keep their mouths shut and let "Merkozy" make the "bad" decisions.
I have the feeling that the leaders of France and Germany (and unfortunately it's not Germany who has upper hand in this duo) really have no clue and only are abusing the opportunity to push through their agenda of more dirigist, even more overregulated, uniformly heavily taxed and as a result of that less competitive EU.
I suppose you meant that Greece will be told to reconsider their rejection, right?
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 22): God help us if it is - your Chanceller is doing a very effective job at ensuring that NOBODY in any other country will ever allow any further erosion of sovereignty or surrender of powers to the EU.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 10 Reply 28, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1482 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): And it is always annoying seeing Germans patting themselves on the back for being so gosh darn responsible when it was German banks who fueled the Greek collapse along with the Greeks themselves, expecting cheap and quick money.
Too bad that French banks played a bigger role in Greece than German banks. And btw don't forget the role Goldman Sachs played in Greece.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27): I have the feeling that the leaders of France and Germany (and unfortunately it's not Germany who has upper hand in this duo) really have no clue and only are abusing the opportunity to push through their agenda of more dirigist, even more overregulated, uniformly heavily taxed and as a result of that less competitive EU.
Could be , but on the other hand the German model seems to be quite competitive (at least at the moment).
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 22):
Right, i'm sorry, but it's time to call BS on this one. If the majority of Germans honestly support the complete subversion of a nation's electoral process, than Germany deserves every single accusation of modern day colonialism it gets.
That's why I'm for a referendum.
Quoting pelican (Reply 4): It's fairly simple: take the money and accept the rules or leave the Euro. It would be best to hold a referendum in Greece about this.
It's a tough choice, but were are the alternatives?
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 22): How would YOU feel if Britain or Spain did the same to Germany when your country was violating the Maastricht rules?
There is a difference between violating the Maastricht rules a taking billions of Euros. And it could be a chance for Greece.
I suppose you meant that Greece will be told to reconsider their rejection, right?
Mixup there, L410Turbojet, not my quote.
However, on past form, I do think that that is the most likely outcome of today's 'summit.' Continued disagreement, so no agreed 'rescue package' for Greece and the sparring/arguing/stick-waving will go on.......
[Edited 2012-01-29 15:34:05]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 31, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1403 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 18): Actually, my apologies, the thread title is "European Union to be governed from Brussels" - and well, yes. Yes it will be. Just like today and yesterday and the day before.
So NAV20, yes the EU is to be governed from Brussels.
asturias
Yeah, I found the title funny too, Brussels is indeed the capital of the Union. Well, along with Strasbourg, that is.
Personally I don't really like what's happening, but on the other hand currently it's the sacrosanct "market" that's in the driver's seat, so it's even worse. I'd rather give more power to Brussels for a few years so we can put the crisis behind, and then the people should decide what they want to do with the EU. At least with a more integrated government, things like an European minimum salary, European VAT, European working rules, European income and business tax, European health care, could really happen, and that would be great.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5320 posts, RR: 22 Reply 32, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1360 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 31): I'd rather give more power to Brussels for a few years so we can put the crisis behind, and then the people should decide what they want to do with the EU.
Perhaps I am just too cynical, but I am afraid any power and sovereignty surrendered to Brussels is not coming back. Ever.
Do you really think that the bureaucrats will just wake up one day and say "oh the crisis is behind us, here have your say as to what will be done with your taxes, regulations, laws... back"?
Quoting Aesma (Reply 31): European income and business tax
Please remind how exactly did it end up when people wanted to decide and end the useless waste of public funds by having the EU travel back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg? http://www.oneseat.eu/
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 33, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32): Perhaps I am just too cynical, but I am afraid any power and sovereignty surrendered to Brussels is not coming back. Ever.
Ever is a long time. If all works well and we end up directly electing a president of the EU or something like that, there is no need for it to come back, but if they stay so far from democracy, it won't work.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 34, posted (3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1305 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 33): If all works well and we end up directly electing a president of the EU or something like that, there is no need for it to come back, but if they stay so far from democracy, it won't work.
First give the elected EU parliament a set of real teeth and get rid of the unelected commision.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 35, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1231 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34): First give the elected EU parliament a set of real teeth and get rid of the unelected commision.
Now this I do agree with.
The issue I have with the current proposal is basically that it seems designed to humiliate the Greek nation (have we not learned the lessons of that before?) by putting it under direct economic rule.
It's a stupid proposal, flies in the face of the founding principles of the EU, and is deeplu unpalatable to anyone who values soveriegnty and self determination. It will only add to the democratic deficit of the EU, and that is no good for any of us in the longer term.
Quoting pelican (Reply 28): There is a difference between violating the Maastricht rules a taking billions of Euros. And it could be a chance for Greece.
The violation of the Maastricht rules, and the holding of interest rates at historic lows in order to promote the needs of Germany is what lead to insane lending in other economies who were enjoying strong economic growth - which resulted in the mess we are in. Seeing as Chancellor Merkel seems very adept at wagging her finger at other "sinners", perhaps she should also show a little humility - it might mean that people get a little less defensive when the German Government points the finger elsewhere.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 36, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1190 times:
Quoting pelican (Reply 28): Too bad that French banks played a bigger role in Greece than German banks. And btw don't forget the role Goldman Sachs played in Greece.
The French are as obsessed over Greece as the Germans, they're just not patting themselves on the back while they're at it. And you can count on that the involvement of Goldman Sachs is not forgotten - it's just not relevant in this discussion.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32): Perhaps I am just too cynical, but I am afraid any power and sovereignty surrendered to Brussels is not coming back. Ever.
Nah it's healthy common sense and it is the way politics works on all levels. Which is why one does not just hand power to another entity on regular basis. There might be circumstances where that is absolutely necessary (see the UK, the IMF and the 70s) but it has to be then to a body that can't possibly maintain long term control of the power granted and to be given for a very specific purpose. Not to mention time-limited.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34): First give the elected EU parliament a set of real teeth and get rid of the unelected commision.
That would be a disaster of epic proportions. The EUP is democratic in name only, but worse it represents the wild and frankly stupid idea that people of the EU can bypass the sovereign state and grant the EU powers directly.
The very fact that Consilium is "unelected" (though its members are elected as much as any minister is elected in a parliamentary system) ensures the limited power of the EU. Granting the EUP more power or even *actual* power may sound good in a generic "democracy must be good"-mantra kind of way, but in reality you'd just be moving power farther from the people into the hands of some very unelected few.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 37, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1178 times:
Two 'rumours' that seem to 'ring true,' reported by the Guardian.
The first is that - as most of us expected - the Greek problem is unlikely even to be much discussed at today's summit, leave alone solved.
The other (courtesy of the WSJ and Dow Jones) is a beauty if it turns out to be true. That the much-heralded 'fiscal compact' may well not include any penalties for countries who break it, because some pretty influential countries appear to be against having any:-
"From the WSJ:
"EU leaders will discuss on Monday two final unresolved questions on the fiscal compact.
"The first is whether non-eurozone countries that have signed the pact will be allowed to participate in meetings where euro-area issues are discussed.
"Another issue is whether sanctions will be imposed when countries fail to meet the pact's requirements on debt-to-gross domestic product ratios.
"The Italians and the French are not keen on the debt rules being up for sanctions," an EU official told Dow Jones Newswires on Monday."
So the 'summit' may turn out to be just a mere foothill.
In a way this sort of thing is in itself a powerful argument against Brussels running the whole Eurozone setup and 'micro-managing' the domestic affairs of all the member countries. On the face of it, on present form, nothing at all would ever get done...........
[Edited 2012-01-30 05:59:50]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 38, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1145 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 37): In a way this sort of thing is in itself a powerful argument against Brussels running the whole Eurozone setup and 'micro-managing' the domestic affairs of all the member countries. On the face of it, on present form, nothing at all would ever get done...........
It has served us well thus far, NAV20, which demonstrates well how uncritical eurosceptics (like the Daily Telegraph for instance) don't actually understand one word they're espousing.
You've got the premise right, in essence Europe can not - ever - be governed from above, by some sort of a federation. Nothing would ever get done and if something would be done .. best case scenario; demise of such a federation and worst case scenario; war. I kid you not.
Even the "global market" wants a EU federation, but they could just as well be wishing for peace on earth or an oil/water mixture. It just can't happen. No matter how one wishes for it or how intensely or how much pressure is applied. In fact, the more pressure applied, the worse it gets.
In that light, it is understandable that some have dreams of a federation - in good times, when there's no pressure - it even seems attainable, just by working on the issue and apply some pressure and *boom* the goal moves farther away.
Always has, always will. The EU is the compromise that works (in a very wide definition of the word) because it is inherently powerless and because nothing ever happens there without consensus. Which means, as well you know, nothing much happens there.
So yes, the EU will be controlled from Brussels and there will be lots of quibbling that leads mostly nowhere.
Meanwhile the EU functions just fine as a free trade/work/business area that oversees that within the Union as a whole, things are predictable and profitable and that no one gets the upper hand on anyone. Despite what the Daily Telegraph thinks. Or you.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 40, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1085 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 39): About the sanctions, they're stupid anyway. Financial sanctions when you're already in trouble financially... Financial sanctions and then a bailout ?
But if there are no sanctions, then what is the point in having the rules to begin with?
If we simply have rules, then we are no further than we were when Maastricht was signed - and Germany and France will feel at liberty to break them again..... (Tongue in cheek..... )
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
offloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 619 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1001 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 31): At least with a more integrated government, things like an European minimum salary, European VAT, European working rules, European income and business tax, European health care, could really happen, and that would be great
How would you propose to acheive this? The minimum wage in Portugal is €485/month, Belgium €1499, Luxembourg €1800, Estonia €290. As a small business owner in one of the afore mentioned countries I can assure you that we are already taxed to the hilt, the company wage bill is more than doubled with income tax and social security contributions, and that's 14 times a year for 11 months work, VAT at 23%, VAT on utilities up from 6 to 23%, new tolled highways,.damn police roadblocks everywhere fining people left right and centre as they are desperate to raise revenue, same thing from a myraid of government inspectors on everything from food safety to checking your fire estinguisher is 1.2m above the floor...no warnings to correct any problems, just fines... I could go on but I won't. According to the Lusa News Agency, Portugal has already paid out €229m in interest to the bailout troika, and the figure may go to €760m.
So far, all I am seeing is 2 things happening: more businesses being pushed over the edge going bust, and more people leaving the system and going doing cash jobs only.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 31): I'd rather give more power to Brussels for a few years so we can put the crisis behind, and then the people should decide what they want to do with the EU.
Brussels would never give it back, and as Pyrex said:
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 26): So yes, faceless, overpaid (plus, they don't actually pay any taxes), unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels run the show, e.g. telling you how much soy you can plant in your own land and how much you can charge for it,
Keep in mind that the Eurpoean Court of Auditors has refused to sign off the accounts for 17 years in a row.
Europe lacks leadership, lacks new ideas, and is heading for some serious civil unrest as ordinary people feel totally disenfranchised from their political elite.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 42, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 970 times:
I've been trying to find some 'details' of what the summit actually decided.
It's pretty clear that nothing at all was decided about Greece.
On the 'main item' (controls on deficit spending) the summit appears to have 'taken refuge in impenetrable prose.' This site provides some information on the wording adopted in the new 'fiscal treaty':-
"•In Article 3(1b), the so-called 'balanced budget rule' seems to have been further watered down. The wording "with the annual structural deficit not exceeding 0.5% of the GDP at market prices" has been replaced by "with a lower limit of a structural deficit of 0.5% of the GDP at market prices." We wonder how the markets will react: There's quite a substantial difference between imposing a maximum cap and a blander lower limit. We interpret this as meaning that the lowest the limit will be set for any country will be 0.5% (where as previously it could have been even stricter). Since the article still refers the the Stability and Growth pact we can infer that the new balanced budget targets will probably fall somewhere between 0.5% of GDP and 3% GDP (the deficit limit in the treaties);"
Oddly, therefore, the summit appears to have decided to establish a lower deficit limit of 0.5% - God knows why - while keeping the upper 3% deficit limit already established by the Lisbon Treaty (but never enforced, so far). This is confirmed by an article in 'The Australian' (sourced to the WSJ) which says:-
"The leaders agreed that the European Court of Justice will be empowered to impose fines on countries running excessive deficits. The fines will be capped at 0.1 per cent of gross domestic product. For Italy, for example, that could mean fines as high as $2bn.
"It will require governments to keep their budget deficits to an average of 0.5 per cent of GDP over the economic cycle -- and to reduce their total government debt toward 60 per cent of GDP over time.
"The EU has long-standing rules that are supposed to limit budget deficits in any year to 3 per cent of GDP, and limiting government debt to 60 per cent of GDP, but they have never been enforced."
Apparently the power to levy a '0.1 per cent of GDP fine' has been in place ever since the Lisbon Treaty, but has never been enforced. I really can't see that sort of penalty (which would apparently amount to only $2B. for Italy's current deficit) bothering any EU countries - not even the smaller ones - even if the fines are levied from now on.
So, if the press reports are right, there we have it, folks; absolutely no progress of any kind......
[Edited 2012-01-30 18:36:18]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 43, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 908 times:
Quoting offloaded (Reply 41): Keep in mind that the Eurpoean Court of Auditors has refused to sign off the accounts for 17 years in a row.
My Lord, what is this? Are we in the 90s? Even the goddam Telegraph has quit pushing that lie.
No don't keep that in mind, because it is meaningless. Apple could not get their accounts signed by the ECA. Fact is normal auditors have no problem with the EU accounts. They fulfill every normal or even strict normal requirements, and the ECA does sign off the accounts today.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42): So, if the press reports are right, there we have it, folks; absolutely no progress of any kind......
Indeed, and so you can rest assured that the EU will be governed from Brussels.
And reading and referring sensationalist bullpucky from the Telegraph is: a waste of everyone's time.
offloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 619 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 827 times:
Quoting Asturias (Reply 43): No don't keep that in mind, because it is meaningless. Apple could not get their accounts signed by the ECA. Fact is normal auditors have no problem with the EU accounts. They fulfill every normal or even strict normal requirements, and the ECA does sign off the accounts today.
Are you are saying that normal auditors, and not the ECA signed off the EU's accounts? Which auditors? Who are these mystery people? Arthur Andersen?
You cannot just dismiss the ECA as irrelevent. There has already been too much fiddling of the books, and fudging the numbers. That's how Europe got into this mess. The question is now how to get out of it.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 45, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 819 times:
Quoting offloaded (Reply 46): You cannot just dismiss the ECA as irrelevent. There has already been too much fiddling of the books, and fudging the numbers. That's how Europe got into this mess. The question is now how to get out of it.
If the European Union gives a certain sum of money to, say, Holland, and this country fails to explain how it's spent this sum, why should the EU be blamed? If anything, it's Holland's fault. As stated above, "the funds spent by the EU itself are signed off".
==========
"The Court of Auditors has given last year, as it did in previous years, a clean bill of health on the EU accounts. The Court confirms these accounts faithfully reflect how the EU budget was spent. The Court also gives a separate opinion on whether all payments have been correctly processed, i.e. paid on time, the invoice properly signed, amounts paid correctly, whether the best and cheapest suppliers have been chosen, etc. The Court says it can only give positive assurance on some spending, not on the whole budget, as it has found errors in some of the payments under scrutiny.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2696 posts, RR: 25 Reply 46, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 806 times:
I know in US politics there sometimes is an easy solution to a problem that everyone agrees upon, but nobody really acts on (like our spending problem>>spend less>>no one tries to spend less.) Is there an idea that will work/probably work that a party doesn't really want to agree upon because it will harm them, or is the issue a lot more complex? I try and broaden my views beyond the US, but this Euro crisis really goes over my head sometimes. Thanks!
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 68 Reply 47, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 809 times:
What I think is that the German government, the French one and the ECB want to have the rules in place to prevent countries becoming complacent after the crisis is over. I think that as soon as the rules are set, there will be a one time ever rescue package to sort out the mess.
The new rules are just to prevent some country´s governments from thinking that there will be always somebody there to bail them out and that they can happily continue with the old ways.
BTW, Germany overstepped the Maastricht rules years ago as a result of unexpected expenses for the re-unification, but then went through a massive austerity programme pushed through mainly by the Schröder government in the 1990s (which promptly lost it´s support from the left and the trade unions and lost the next elections). This programme of cutting back on social welfare, moderate pay rises and making the German industry competitive is paying off now, but the government was hated for it at the time.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1767 posts, RR: 19 Reply 48, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 790 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 48): Is there an idea that will work/probably work that a party doesn't really want to agree upon because it will harm them, or is the issue a lot more complex? I try and broaden my views beyond the US, but this Euro crisis really goes over my head sometimes. Thanks!
Putting it that way, I reckon the easiest way to understand the problem in the Eurozone is to look at its most basic form and in a specific region. Putting country A and country B under the same hat is meaningless, even though they are close and closely related (e.g. Spain and Portugal) - so a vital first step is to purge any such temptation from one's mind.
Next, pick a country, e.g. Greece. It's problem, in its most basic form is not lack of revenue as most would claim off hand. That's both a banal and useless explanation. It's like saying a sick person has a lack of health. It says nothing.
There is a systemic problem in Greece that has proliferated for some time and is the cause of its problems. Greece itself is perfectly fine, its got good infrastructure and constant revenue - bickering about growth or such banalities is pointless; banal and useless as an explanation - like saying that the reason this tree isn't higher is it's lack of growth.
So what is the issue that causes the aforementioned banalities in Greece? Politics, corruption of the administrative system and policy short sightedness. They all hold hand in hand.
This results in cronyism, artificially low tax revenue and policy decisions that favor friends and allies. This costs money, a lot of money and it doesn't make money. The deficit is hidden until the system blows up in the face of everyone.
Greece is not a poor country, it is for its size and population, a bountiful and prosperous country. There is no natural reason for the economic situation there. In a sentence the reason for Greece's situation is bad management. Nothing else.
Why is this a problem for the Eurozone or individual countries of the Eurozone such as German and France? Isn't this a local Greek problem? In essence: yes, yes it is. However, two things outside of Greece have piqued the interest of France and Germany.
One; the violation of the Maastricht rules on government debt in the Eurozone, which Greece has undoubtably broken severely (due to former mismanagement), but those rules are just technocrat rules that don't actually harm the Eurozone - at least not while it's just one small country breaking those rules. But it gives the EU (and France and Germany by extention) a reason to start meddling in Greek internal affairs.
Two; the reason for the meddling of France and Germany is simply that their banks have been funding this Greek mismanagement for a decade. These are huge sums and France and Germany are rightly worried that should Greece default completely or partially on said debts, that will affect their own banks, their pension funds and the future of their voters.
Thus they want this to be a controlled environment and they're ready to use the EU to achieve this - they evidently feel that Greece can be put on its feet again with a firm management and a reasonable debt-cut, which is may be true. That will do it, if it can be achieved. However, this is an internal Greek issue and France and Germany can't control this directly, no matter how much they want to.
Thus it is up to the aforementioned Greek politicians and administrators to achieve this "landing" and that doesn't inspire the confidence it should (in a perfect world). Hence the angst and gnashing of teeth by parties involved.
In the end, there is no Euro-crisis, in the sense that the Euro is not in a crisis. The Euro is a currency that is a voucher for work and values in a community of 300-ish million people. The issue is that in this economic crisis (since 2008) it has dawned upon people that the Euro can't be used to kickstart an economy á la Keynes, the individual countries can't print money to save their budget.
Can't be done, so what then? That's the crisis and that's the million-Euro question. That's why people are saying "oh Greece should just leave the Eurozone", because then Greece could just apply the Keynesian model, like all European nations have done before the Euro to remedy periods of economic recessions or even disasters.
Now they can't so people are saying "oh the Euro is no good, it only works in good economic times". What the ECB and the Eurozone backbone countries are saying is; that the Keynesian model is not needed, only responsible economic policies and the problem will sort itself out anyway - that the economic area that is the EEA will balance things out quickly enough without the need of a currency devaluation.
That means in all probability political and economic actions that are ranging from sensible and difficult to incredibly unpopular (ensuring correct and steady tax revenue, which is probably way more important than cutting wages).
Then I could tell you about Spain and Portugal and the UK, but this is way too long already. Fix the system in Greece and things will start turning in their favor very fast.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 49, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 751 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 48): Is there an idea that will work/probably work that a party doesn't really want to agree upon because it will harm them, or is the issue a lot more complex? I try and broaden my views beyond the US, but this Euro crisis really goes over my head sometimes.
There IS an idea that would work, DeltaMD90 - that, indeed, DID work in pulling the developed world out of the 1929 Great Depression, and also 'reconstructing' Europe after the Second World War. It's generally known as 'Keynesianism' and was basically the (good) idea of one man, a British economist:-
"Keynesian economics advocates a mixed economy — predominantly private sector, but with a significant role of government and public sector — and served as the economic model during the later part of the Great Depression, World War II, and the post-war economic expansion (1945–1973), though it lost some influence following the stagflation of the 1970s. The advent of the global financial crisis in 2008 has caused a resurgence in Keynesian thought.
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"Keynes argued that the solution to the Great Depression was to stimulate the economy ("inducement to invest") through some combination of two approaches: a reduction in interest rates and government investment in infrastructure. Investment by government injects income, which results in more spending in the general economy, which in turn stimulates more production and investment involving still more income and spending and so forth. The initial stimulation starts a cascade of events, whose total increase in economic activity is a multiple of the original investment."
On a personal note, I was very much involved in the latter part of that post-war 'reconstruction,' in the late 1960s and 1970s; first helping to build new towns in the UK, and later organising the funding, design, and construction of new British factories in Europe, and European ones in Britain. In those days there was a groundswell of genuine 'European unity;' pretty well all of us had suffered in WW2 to one extent or another (most of my earliest memories are of sitting in an air-raid shelter being bombed ) and there was a lot of genuine and wholehearted European cooperation. That led to things like the European Free Trade Area, the Coal and Steel Community, and in due course to the European Common Market; all of which were highly beneficial in their day.
'Keynesianism' is still 'alive and well' and both the United States and the UK are currently using the technique - which is nowadays usually referred to as 'quantitative easing' (or, otherwise, 'printing money' ) - to maintain the highest possible levels of employment. The Eurozone is also doing some through the European Central Bank, in particular buying a lot of EU government bonds to keep the 'coupon rates' down; though that body is handicapped by the fact that it is not a true 'sovereign bank,' like the Bank of England or the Fed, and therefore it has to use real (mostly German) money, which is by no means unlimited. But the Eurozone also faces the problem that unemployment is already sky-high, so the 'quantitative easing' ('money-pumping') will have to be persevered with for a long time, certainly for years, before there is likely to be any real progress in restoring consumer demand and reducing unemployment from its current crisis level of over 10%. It remains to be seen whether even Germany can afford to go on 'bankrolling' more or less the whole Eurozone for that long.
There MAY be another solution (only my own idea so far, I haven't seen it suggested anywhere else ). As I've said, the original 'Common Market' worked very well for a long time, because (again in my view) it mainly consisted of relatively wealthy and industrialised countries who retained their own currencies. But in 1999 the Euro was introduced, and at the same time the Eurozone commenced a headlong expansion that drew in large numbers of much poorer and less industrialised countries; all of whom were encouraged to adopt the Euro. From being largely an 'association of equals,' the Eurozone was transformed into a community of 'rich and poor.' The 'equalisation' of interest rates Eurozone-wide didn't help either.
So my solution would be for the countries with weaker economies to be assisted to revert to their original currencies, which they could then devalue etc. if they needed to; and for arrangements to be concluded whereby they became 'associate members,' so that their individual economies can 'find and hold' some stability at whatever level of prosperity turns out to be achievable. That would mean them getting a lot of financial help from the 'core' Eurozone countries, of course, and probably the IMF; but that's already happening anyway.
[Edited 2012-01-31 17:47:41]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 50, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 643 times:
Of course the veto power of the UK, just as every other EU country, is not cancelled and annulled (the EU is not the honours forfeiture committee, lol), but one has to admit that clearly not a whole lot was blocked by the veto of December, was there? Opting out is something different than vetoing it.
Better not to use the V word then as the UK risks that from now on, any veto will just be turned into yet another opt out, which in the short term may all come down to the same domestically, but in the long run means you are completely isolated and left without influence on the decisions, all while the effects of those decisions will have noticeable impact on te UK too. Let's face it: If all EU nations will have budgets living up to the standards now imposed by this otherwise called new EU treaty, the British government will have to follow too, or risk looking pretty silly, so don't fool yourself: the UK will have to live up to the same principles just as well, like it or not, and this is no anti-British rhetoric at all, it is the correct analysis of the British position on the new EU treaty on fiscal and budgetary discipline, also shared by many in your own Parliament, as evidenced by the above links...
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 51, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Striking article in the Independent, which canvassed the views of a number of 'experts' on the current situation. For once, most of the contributors really are experts - some are economists but the majority are people who have had hands-on experience of running the EU in their time.
Interestingly, the various contributors are pretty well unanimous on two key points. Firstly that the current 'deflationary,' 'anti-Keynesian' policies being insisted on by the EU leadership will inevitably make things worse rather than better; and secondly that a 'two-tier' EU, divided into a small group of 'core' countries and a larger group of less prosperous 'associate' ones, will almost certainly be required:-
Please do not mix up EU and Eurozone. Being an EU member does not require Eurozone membership and a country can stay in the EU even if it has to leave the Eurozone. I am sick and tired of hearing about Greece, Portugal etc leaving the EU, when this problem in a EZ problem.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 51): Striking article in the Independent
Some are very informative but the day Europe (more so the UK) accepts advice from the likes of Mr. Soros will be the same day farmers ask the wolves for advice on how to protect their cattle.
janmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 823 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 489 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 51): secondly that a 'two-tier' EU, divided into a small group of 'core' countries and a larger group of less prosperous 'associate' ones, will almost certainly be required:-
Stratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 952 posts, RR: 7 Reply 54, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 445 times:
Well, it seems like everyone is forgetting that Greece is being monitored and aided financially by two INSTITUTIONS the EU and the IMF. While the IMF happens to be governed by a French it is still a global institution and I encourage you to read into it's process of decision making and functioning.
Greece's problems are structural for the most part and while austerity is essential it alone will do nothing but further cripple the country.
Quoting bjcc (Reply 3): the worst think the UK ever did was ditching the economic links with the Commonwealth and joining the grace that is the EU.
The worst thing the UK ever did was to not join the Euro-Zone and historians in a centuries time will write just that.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 16): My Uncle retired at 66 and my Aunt will retire from four decades of service as a school teacher this June at the age of 67 . We need to seperate fact from fiction here guys ! My Aunts wage was slashed in the last year and it wasnt high to begin with . My family have paid their taxes all their lives and been good citizens. The political elite and business tycoons have taken the piss and they should be held to account. The normal everyday people are suffering. If the move to let Brussels take control would finally bring these cheats to account and make these the targets of huge taxes and cuts and give some relief to the ones on the breadline then I say bring it on .
Right on, our media likes to draw pictures of lazy Greek, Spanish etc. fact1: not true fact2 (at least in the Greek case) it is the widespread corruption that needs to be addressed and if foreigners are better suited they might actually make it work.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 32): Perhaps I am just too cynical, but I am afraid any power and sovereignty surrendered to Brussels is not coming back. Ever. Do you really think that the bureaucrats will just wake up one day and say "oh the crisis is behind us, here have your say as to what will be done with your taxes, regulations, laws... back"?
Try to see it that way: states have long surrendered power and sovereignty to the market and the market will take the last bits and pieces of it. So I prefer surrendering power to the EU which is kind of controllable and democratic and on which I can assert some kind of influence.
Last but not least it is about time we ditch your kind of thinking from 2 centuries ago for good. We will not survive as Greks, Italians, Germans or Czech. You might not like it but take it as a given. I started to feel European instead of German some 15-18 years ago and it has and will serve me brilliantly. Even the neo-realists will acknowledge.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 55, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 429 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 52): Please do not mix up EU and Eurozone. Being an EU member does not require Eurozone membership and a country can stay in the EU even if it has to leave the Eurozone.
With respect, lewis, that's exactly why I used the term 'EU' in my comment. I certainly don't envisage Greece (or any of the other countries that are currently in trouble) leaving the EU - but I DO see some of them leaving the Eurozone, so that they are free to devalue their currency if they have to.
Oddly enough, way back when I was working on 'inter-European' projects, we had a thing called the 'ECU' (European Currency Unit). Its value was based on a 'basket' of the currencies used by all the members of the EU at the time. It could actually be used for transactions, although it was much more used in areas like estimating, negotiation etc.. But the important point was that individual countries could devalue if they needed to.
In 1999 the ECU was simply 'transformed' into the Euro; the disadvantage being that the Euro's value was determined from then on not on a 'basket of currencies' basis but by reference to the performance of the strongest economies in the Eurozone, and the poorer countries had to go on using what became, from their point of view, a seriously over-valued currency.
The effect of that was well summed up by a 'cry from the heart' earlier on from a poster (I think located in Portugal) who is currently struggling to run his business in face of exactly the sort of 'poverty trap' that I'm referring to:-
Quoting offloaded (Reply 41): The minimum wage in Portugal is €485/month, Belgium €1499, Luxembourg €1800, Estonia €290. As a small business owner in one of the afore mentioned countries I can assure you that we are already taxed to the hilt, the company wage bill is more than doubled with income tax and social security contributions, and that's 14 times a year for 11 months work, VAT at 23%, VAT on utilities up from 6 to 23%,
So I don't envisage Greece leaving the EU. But I do expect it - and other countries caught in the same trap - eventually to leave the 'Eurozone' and revert to having their own currencies, which they can devalue if they need to.
[Edited 2012-02-02 20:21:46]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
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It's Merkel I can't stand, not the whole country.
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, but on the other hand the German model seems to be quite competitive (at least at the moment).
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(Tongue in cheek..... 
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