EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 11864 posts, RR: 67 Posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1852 times:
A judge has barred Alejandrina Cabrera from seeking a seat on a City Council in AZ after determining she did not have sufficient command of the English language to serve in the position. Fair or unfair?
First, please see the link below, then type "Cabrera" in the search box to see video of part of her language skills test in court:
detroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1795 times:
From the video posted, she surely does not even seem to have a basic grasp of the language. It's not like it was a misunderstanding, the question was repeated 3 times.
Good for AZ!!!
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 2, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1775 times:
I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1763 times:
I heard about this a few days ago... interesting. Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English? If not, I see it as a 1st Amendment issue perhaps, but if the language barrier truly does hamper her duties, I hope the electorate would make that call...
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1695 times:
This candidate was also challenging the lay offs of 12 employees, hiking up utility rates and to recall the Mayor due to those and other issues. That is probably why they are using the English language skills issue to discourage her candidacy.
Still almost all 'official' records of law making involve the use of American English as the in fact language so one must be able to understand it at least to a HS graduate level. Not fully understanding the laws and policies they are making and managing them in municipal politics can lead to serious problems. I suspect that majority of that border community's residents (legal and probably numerous illegals) are mainly or only Spanish speaking and they would feel more comfortable with a government leader who is more like them. Still, running a community is like running a multi-million dollar business and the inability to be fluent in English is inefficient and impractical.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 6, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1623 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4): Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English?
Right next to the law that says we are a Christian nation, no doubt.
So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6516 posts, RR: 29 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1577 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.
I don't get it - why does it have to be in the US Constitution? She's running for a city council seat. It could be in the city's laws, in the Council's bylaws, in the County's laws, in Arizona's state laws......
As it says in the article:
State law requires elected officials to know English, but Cabrera's attorneys claim the law doesn't define proficiency in the language.
Obviously it may not define proficiency required, as stated. But I just can't really find fault with the city for this determination, even if it is politically motivated.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1574 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7): why does it have to be in the US Constitution?
BECAUSE... it's our Constitution! This has probably been going on for a while and I'm just picking up on it, but our country passes laws that sometimes fly in the face of the Constitution (like the NDAA for example.) The Constitution is not there as a guideline, it IS the law.
If we need English speakers to be elected, pass a law or an amendment, don't just take the shady semi-unconstitutional route and say no she can't run.
Plus, I'm sure if it really as bad as people are making it out to be, she won't get elected. I'm sure she'll have a good translator and everything. You don't need to speak English to make good decisions.
Now if what she is doing violates a law, then I have no problem with her not running. But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions
detroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8): But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions
The constitution does not set guidelines on who can run for city office, the only guidelines it gives for offices are of the Pres. VP, house and senate and maybe a couple others. The states have all rights not mentioned in the constitution.
Also, AZ has a law on the books saying English is their official language. Once again, there is nothing in the Constitution that bars AZ from making this law.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1555 times:
Quoting detroitflyer (Reply 9): Also, AZ has a law on the books saying English is their official language. Once again, there is nothing in the Constitution that bars AZ from making this law.
yeah I guess I'm approaching it from a federal standpoint rather than a state. Hopefully AZ will follow their guidelines. Having English as the official AZ language does not necessarily mean that elected officials must be very proficient in it, as long as she conducts her business in English. With a translator, I don't see a problem. Again, I think the electorate won't vote for her if this really is a big issue that would affect her job
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6516 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8): BECAUSE... it's our Constitution! This has probably been going on for a while and I'm just picking up on it, but our country passes laws that sometimes fly in the face of the Constitution (like the NDAA for example.) The Constitution is not there as a guideline, it IS the law.
If we need English speakers to be elected, pass a law or an amendment, don't just take the shady semi-unconstitutional route and say no she can't run.
Plus, I'm sure if it really as bad as people are making it out to be, she won't get elected. I'm sure she'll have a good translator and everything. You don't need to speak English to make good decisions.
Now if what she is doing violates a law, then I have no problem with her not running. But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions
State law requires elected officials to know English, but Cabrera's attorneys claim the law doesn't define proficiency in the language.
There are probably thousands of laws that are NOT in the US Constitution. States, counties, cities, towns, etc. all have the ability to enact laws. They do not need to request a US Constitutional amendment to do so.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1530 times:
ALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 988 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1523 times:
Are we so damned politically correct these days that we can't use common judgement and require somebody speak English in order to make laws and other important decisions? If there's no law requiring English be used, how about Congress write all new laws in Spanish, or better yet, Hebrew. Can't read it? That's your problem - go find a translator. Oh, nuances got lost in translation? That's your fault.
It is about time to make English the national language, full stop. Businesses and people can do whatever they want in other languages, but official government business must be done in English. If they want to additionally provide other translations, they can, but not the other way around.
Asinine.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1503 times:
If she does not speak, read, and write English well she should not be allowed to run. Pretty simple I think. Here in South Florida you can imagine that it is a problem with county employees who don't speak English well or at all. Never seen a politician who could not speak it though. I have even had a problem communicating with a Police Officer in English! This is the US, people working on tax payer salries should all be required to speak, read, and write english fluently.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 6): So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.
The Arizona Constitution may say something, this is not a federal issue. States and cities can implement laws they like. Language is not a forbidden type of discrimination you can say. If it was race, sex, religion etc.. But its pretty obvious English is requried for the job. Just as any Airline Pilot needs to speak English well.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
ALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 988 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1499 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 14): Just as any Airline Pilot needs to speak English well.
Oh yeah, thanks for bringing that one up. Where's the sh*tstorm over that? For the love of God why can't somebody speak Czech and get a job in ATC? That's discrimination, y'all. Just like these durned AZ people who are violating people's basic civil rights, ya'll.
/sarcasm
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 3557 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1488 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.
In this case though, she is a US citizen who graduated high school in Arizona. Talk about proof of the failure of an education system (you are supposed to graduate being proficient in the English language)
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4): I heard about this a few days ago... interesting. Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English? If not, I see it as a 1st Amendment issue perhaps, but if the language barrier truly does hamper her duties, I hope the electorate would make that call...
From an article I read on the issue:
Quote: In 2006, Arizona passed a law that made English the official language of the state. Earlier, in 1910, Congress passed the Enabling Act, which allowed Arizona to become a state with certain requirements. Among them was one that addressed the English language.
"The ability to read, write, speak, and understand the English language sufficiently well to conduct the duties of the office without aid of an interpreter shall be a necessary qualification for all state officers and members of the state legislature," a section of the act reads.
And I see that you commented later on the state vs federal aspect of it, this is just FYI on what the decision is based on.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5): This candidate was also challenging the lay offs of 12 employees, hiking up utility rates and to recall the Mayor due to those and other issues. That is probably why they are using the English language skills issue to discourage her candidacy.
As near as I can tell these are the reasons that started this ball rolling. It doesn't change the fact that she is deficient in her English language skills, sufficiently so so as to not be eligible for official duties.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5): Still almost all 'official' records of law making involve the use of American English as the in fact language so one must be able to understand it at least to a HS graduate level. Not fully understanding the laws and policies they are making and managing them in municipal politics can lead to serious problems. I suspect that majority of that border community's residents (legal and probably numerous illegals) are mainly or only Spanish speaking and they would feel more comfortable with a government leader who is more like them. Still, running a community is like running a multi-million dollar business and the inability to be fluent in English is inefficient and impractical.
Without English language fluency I cannot see how someone could be an effective leader even in a town where the majority speak another languages as officials need to be able to communicate easily with the surrounding areas. It is probably one of if not the most important things that leadership does: Act as a go-between for the community and those around and outside of the community.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 6): Right next to the law that says we are a Christian nation, no doubt.
So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.
See my post above. The Constitution is not the only ruling law on this, other laws indicate a requirement and need for proficiency in English for public service. And if it becomes an issue I would fully support an "English is the official language" amendment. I absolutley support people knowing and learning multiple languages but there has to be a common base language. Also in this case if her ability to speak English is limited then she will not properly support (not just "represent) her constituents as she will need to have an interpreter (paid for by her constituents so it limits funding for other needed community issues) and will miss some elements of conversations (any translator will tell this happens) and could result in problems for greater community at large as it increase the chance of an error occurring.
Tugg
everything I have learned I have learned by mistake
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 18, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1437 times:
I don't understand the "states rights" people getting up in arms over local issues they want to project to the federal level. I was simply saving a step. Besides, Arizona was origionally a Mexican/Spanish colony. Just like California was. Heck, Alaska was Russian and most of the Midwest was French. We must make those official languages also!
There are people in Chinatown San Francisco who do government business every day that do not speak a work of English. Only Chinese. Should they be fired? Because they work with their constituants?
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 3807 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1431 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
If she is a citizen, then yes, she is supposed to have a grasp of the English language.
I guess all those Puerto Ricans shouldn't be citizens either. Ordinary citizens can speak whatever darn language they want to. I do agree, though, to hold public office you need to speak the language the laws are written in.
She doesn't have a grasp of anything. I have never taken a day of Spanish lessons in my life, but I would sure as hell be able to understand someone (speaking as slowly as in the video clip) asking me where I went to high school. She probably wouldn't even be able to pass a Spanish proficiency test. She's just a pawn, make no mistake.
Then again, there's a possibility she deliberately "failed" the test specifically to challenge the law.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 3557 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 18): I don't understand the "states rights" people getting up in arms over local issues they want to project to the federal level. I was simply saving a step. Besides, Arizona was origionally a Mexican/Spanish colony. Just like California was. Heck, Alaska was Russian and most of the Midwest was French. We must make those official languages also!
How so?
Quoting seb146 (Reply 18): There are people in Chinatown San Francisco who do government business every day that do not speak a work of English. Only Chinese. Should they be fired? Because they work with their constituants?
If they cannot function in English then they really should be either released or required to learn English in a certain time frame. If I worked in Germany or Russia or Mexico or wherever I would expect the same. If a community spoke two languages officially, I would expect to have to know both languages in order to work effectively for the community.
It just isn't that big a deal. Learn the language(s) you have to learn.
Tugg
everything I have learned I have learned by mistake
Do they do government business or work for the government? There is nothing wrong with government employees who have to speak different languages to do their job but they ALL should at least speak English fluently.
[Edited 2012-01-31 15:55:05]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1408 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.
This story was carried on a local radio show here last week. And, I have to admit she really didn't have much of an understanding of what she was being asked by the judge. It's a tough decision, things that used to preclude you from running from office were being a woman or being black, but those restrictions are long gone. But, the US has never declared an official language.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1390 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 16): In this case though, she is a US citizen who graduated high school in Arizona. Talk about proof of the failure of an education system (you are supposed to graduate being proficient in the English language)
San Luis, Arizona is a border town near Yuma. It's population is over 90 percent hispanic. It's also one of the fastest growing towns in Arizona. Alejandrina Cabrera reflects what many smaller border towns in Arizona, California, and Texas are - basically Mexican towns where illegal aliens have anchor-babies. I live in Arizona, and this is true from my experience here.
Arizona law is very clear - public elected officials MUST have command of the English language - she does not. I would question whether she actually graduated from an Arizona high school, unless all of the students there were Mexican and they were all tought in Spanish instead of English (which is a distinct possibility).......
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1345 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19): I guess all those Puerto Ricans shouldn't be citizens either.
Apparently, you have no clue about the (supposed) requirements of a naturalized citizen.
25 tugger: Ehh...? What are you on about there? Puerto Rican's are US citizens, they have no need for "naturalization". And English is a required class in their
26 stratosphere: Uh because it is.. Just like babies born to anyone in the US are automatic citizens is in the constitution i.e. Anchor Babies. Like it or not.
27 Aesma: Many nations have several official languages, that doesn't mean everybody has to understand all of them, even if on the public payroll. I don't know
28 mham001: I never said one word about Puerto Ricans. They are not exactly "natuaralized" are they. For the pedantic, maybe my original quote should have said '
29 sprout5199: And what is wrong with the NDAA? The Constitution is a guideline, to be interpreted by the judicial branch of the govt. Dan in Jupiter
30 DeltaMD90: The "indefinitely detaining US citizens" part There's a world of difference between interpretation and contradiction. How can "indefinitely detaining
31 sprout5199: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...1540enr/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540enr.pdf We have had this discussion here at work. Please read Sec 1021 (e) and sec 1
32 AR385: She is not a "naturalized citizen" she is American born. Raised across the border for whatever reason, but she was born in the United States. She is
33 Maverick623: Anyone from a group that wants Spanish to be made an official language, to La Raza. I don't know, and frankly (unless it's La Raza) it really doesn't
34 LOT767-300ER: Have you watched the video? She cant even answer where she went to high school. You can get a 6 year old to tell you where they go to school. Her com
35 AR385: No. I don´t know when the video was taken. I watched the interview last night. Wether she has improved since the video, I don´t know. But, in the i
36 tugger: I had not thought of that. Would not be surprised. Tugg
37 Maverick623: Watching the video again, it's clear she intentionally did poorly in court. Her vocabulary was quite good, and her grammar was about on par with a 4t
38 LOT767-300ER: If indeed she is doing it intentionally screw her then for wasting everyone's time, and jail her for screwing around on the stand.
39 EA CO AS: How is it "clear" that was her intent - are you a mind-reader now?
40 flanker: Its so sad that common sense isn't so common any more. Instead it has been replaced with the disease that is political correctness. Someone who doesn'
41 Maverick623: Wow. Maybe Rosa Parks should've been jailed for daring to fight a law she doesn't agree with and not just taking her punishment. Yep. Maybe you misse
42 EA CO AS: It is? She does? How is that "clear" to you? Please be specific. No disrespect intended, but your profile says "baggage handler" so I'm not sure what
43 flanker: The fact that this is even made into an issue is just idiotic.
44 Maverick623: I was specific. Read it again. Oh wait: So you read it and assume that just because you think I merely sling bags for a living, that I have no experi
45 L410Turbolet: In pre-PC days common sense would be enough to suggest that if one doesn't speak the language it's not the best idea to run for a public office. Two
46 AR385: She speaks the language at a perfectly acceptable level. I would agree with you if her language skills were zero. They are not. Thus, your reasoning
47 L410Turbolet: Perhaps perfectly acceptable to handle shopping for groceries at Walmart, but civil servant who basically makes living out of using a language, both
48 AR385: That is your point of view. I respect it, but I don´t agree with it. Just because other places are more tolerant that some backwards part of Arizona
49 L410Turbolet: I am proposing use of common sense. My commad of Polish is considerably better than her of English. I guess I should run for a mayor of WRO since tha
50 AR385: If you are a Polish citizen, I don´t see why not, if that is what you wish. That is whole different situation, and, by the way, English IS the offic
51 EA CO AS: No you weren't, but whatever. I was merely asking what other training or experience might allow you to be qualified to make the assertion you did. Yo
52 bjorn14: She could have been coached in the video interview too. This isn't a Federal issue this is a State issue. See the Tenth Amendment. I'll be waiting fo
53 Maverick623: See the 14th. Equal protection. If you think English was used in those "bilingual" classes, well, think again. (Although by the tone of your post I'm
54 flymia: Seriously? Not in the video I saw. Agreed, she is under oath. How does going under oath in court relate? Give her some random, city, state and federa
55 aa757first: English is the official language of Arizona. Just because the federal laws fail to mandate it doesn't mean they disallow it. For example, our nationa
56 AR385: As I´ve written time and again. In the interview I saw, her English was perfectly acceptable to hold public office. No, not a native speaker´s skil
57 detroitflyer: correct, but she was not running for Federal office, she was running for office in Arizona AND... Really, did we watch the same video? Because in the
58 AR385: Great. Take my comments out of context. The following is the complete version.
59 flymia: Hopefully none which would be able to win an election but that is true. Her English is no where near fluent/native. There is no test in the law then
60 AR385: NYT excerpt: "At Council meetings, though, the materials delivered to the members are in English and much of the discussion is in English, too, offic
61 OA412: Maverick is right. She is faking it. I don't understand Arizona politics well enough to know why, but it's clear to me that she is. In my previous job
62 tugger: You're kidding? The idea and intent of "bilingual education" in the USA is not to necessarily be able to SPEAK a language other than English by the e
63 flymia: It sounds like the residents get stuff in spanish andmspeakmspanish to the council members and there is a translator for the council members to trans
64 connies4ever: I tht txtng ws oficl lngwg of USA.
65 MD11Engineer: Then I expect that you´ll speak proper English in future: Ye good olde Queen´s English! Jan
66 bjorn14: I have since found out she only went to high school in AZ for 3 years after living her life in Mexico.
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