stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
According to NBC News, Romney has won the Florida Republican Primary by a huge margin. Seems like Newt and Rick have been steam-rolled over by Romney's well-funded SuperPac and its expensive saturation television ad campaign in 10 major television markets. It seems to me that Mitt has now decided to pivot to attacking President Obama's record and will let Gingrich and Santorum and Paul fight over the scraps. I think the Republican primary race is now over.
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 1639 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1307 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Romney has won the Florida Republican Primary by a huge margin.
I was not expecting that. I mean, polls never showed overwhelming support for Romney. Who is Romney anyway? Is he a rookie that came from out of the blue? Do we have to check his citizenship papers?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1294 times:
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 2): I was not expecting that. I mean, polls never showed overwhelming support for Romney.
They have been showing large margins for him in the last few days.
Actually I think each candidate has released/is planning to release their birth certificates. Good thing they are, the secret service or whoever never looks into the candidates to make sure they're US born
If anything, this state confirms we can't really predict anything. Before Iowa, everyone said Romney is gonna win 100%. After Iowa, it was Santorum or Romney!!! Then after NH it was Romney for sure. Oh uh, SC... Newt's got this! He is leading throughout the nation, and is poised to win FL! Few days later Romney comes back, then wins FL. Now I'm hearing the "Romney is GOING to win, no doubt about it."
We shall see. I think he'll win, but one never knows...
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 6, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1272 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 1): Not being completely crazy, not being utterly stupid and not being a total scumbag may have helped a little bit
Two out of three ain't bad. Given that he changes his political stripes with the direction of political winds, I would in fact say he is a scumbag. But then I think that way about politicians in general.
Quoting flymia (Reply 5): Anyway glad Mitt won, he is our only shot of getting Obama out of office.
I feel a bowel movement coming on when I think that our choice in the next election will be between Mr. Obama and Mr. Romney. How I do fear for the future of our nation.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 36437 posts, RR: 86 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1263 times:
Quoting redflyer (Reply 6): I feel a bowel movement coming on when I think that our choice in the next election will be between Mr. Obama and Mr. Romney. How I do fear for the future of our nation.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1261 times:
Geez, reading it again I don't know how I DIDN'T see sarcasm lol.
I'll note that Paul (and I think Santorum) didn't even campaign in FL since it was winner take all. Paul is focusing on caucuses, probably won't win, but it'll give him a bigger voice at the convention hopefully...
If anything, this state confirms we can't really predict anything. Before Iowa, everyone said Romney is gonna win 100%. After Iowa, it was Santorum or Romney!!! Then after NH it was Romney for sure. Oh uh, SC... Newt's got this! He is leading throughout the nation, and is poised to win FL! Few days later Romney comes back, then wins FL. Now I'm hearing the "Romney is GOING to win, no doubt about it."
We shall see. I think he'll win, but one never knows...
If nothing else this race has made most of the pundits, including many of the ones I find informative or entertaining, look pretty silly. Being a Dem I don't have a dog in this hunt though and can't draw too many conclusions about it that don't suffer from my personal bias. I can only be glad I don't own a television in Florida because the ad buys sound like they were gigantic.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
Awwww man...I wanted see Gingrich 'rip Obama to shreds' in the Presidential Debates (yeah, like that was gonna ever happen), now it looks like it'll be Willard - who is gonna be OWS's new poster boy as the weather starts to turn towards favorable demonstration season.
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3386 posts, RR: 7 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1203 times:
I am against Obama, and I am hoping that the republican primary process goes all the way to the convention. I feel that every voter in every state deserves a voice, and that a split of delegates strengthens the party in the long run because it forces the party to listen to all ideas, not just the establishment.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1202 times:
Quoting apodino (Reply 11): I feel that every voter in every state deserves a voice,
That is why I hope Americans Elect (or a program like it) gains traction. They have some good ideas, and I started a thread on it (shameless link to my own thread coming up): Have You Heard Of Americans Elect? (by DeltaMD90 Jan 31 2012 in Non Aviation)
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20144 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1142 times:
Quoting redflyer (Reply 6): Two out of three ain't bad. Given that he changes his political stripes with the direction of political winds, I would in fact say he is a scumbag. But then I think that way about politicians in general.
No: Three out of three. Iwas deliberately qualifying mystatement above: "…not a total scumbag…"
That he's a scumbag is agreed, just in this case not the scum of the scum.
I think it's pretty clear where the "total scumbag" award would go among that field…
Charles79 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1236 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1113 times:
I was just browsing the CNN graph on the results by different categories such as age, college education, income level, etc, and Mr. Romney captured the majority of the voters in nearly every category. Interestingly, though, the one group that Mr. Gingrich did capture was the voters who "Strongly Support" the TEA Party Movement with 45% vs. a 33% for Romney….
Looking ahead I can't help but wonder how much longer until Mr. Santorum calls it quits. Assuming that the Santorum supporters would rather support Mr. Gingrich, if we add the Santorum votes to Gingrich then it becomes a far tighter race at the front with Rep. Paul a distant third. Such a scenario would probably result in a more focused race between the moderate side of the GOP and the more extreme/conservative side…making the race that much more interesting for those of us looking from the outside.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1111 times:
Exit polls showed Willard scored very high on the electability issue.
FL GOP voters are not voting for a candidate they are enthusiastic about - turnout was down from the last primary.
FL GOP voters are voting for whom they perceive to be the least worst choice.
Willard's rating among independent voters was dragged down by his negative TV ads, but only GOPers vote in the FL primary.
I guess we'll find out how electable a 1%er is in this economic climate.
I too think Willard's money and campaign organization will see him through to a victory.
The real issue is how much damage Gingrich does to him in the primaries.
Another issue if things continue to go Willard's way is his choice of VP candidates.
Wil he do something to get the red-meat Republicans on board, or will he pick another milk toast candidate like himself?
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 16, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1093 times:
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14): I was just browsing the CNN graph on the results by different categories such as age, college education, income level, etc, and Mr. Romney captured the majority of the voters in nearly every category. Interestingly, though, the one group that Mr. Gingrich did capture was the voters who "Strongly Support" the TEA Party Movement with 45% vs. a 33% for Romney…
Hardly a surprise. Gingrich is more fiscally conservative than Romney, and that's where the Tea Party will go.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 10): Awwww man...I wanted see Gingrich 'rip Obama to shreds' in the Presidential Debates (yeah, like that was gonna ever happen)
I heard a report the other day about how Romney (and most candidates, including Obama) will spend days in mock debates, practicing against debate coaches who throw every imaginable question at them. They memorize stock responses to known questions. On the other hand Gingrich never does this - his idea of debate preparation is getting up, coffee, toast, and go to the debate. He answers off the top of his head. That requires intelligence. If he did not have a tendency to voice crazy shit every once and a while that should be reflected on first, he would be a shoe-in. His Moon colony thing was a perfect case in point - sure it's a good idea to get NASA back on mission to push the technological limits and get us moving forward again (after 40 years stuck in low earth orbit), bit we don't need a trillion dollar program at this time.
You are probably right about "like that was gonna ever happen". There is no requirement for the President to accept debates. If he were running against Gingrich, Obama's campaign would make sure that there is only one debate, maybe none at all if they think they can get away with it. Gingrich's IQ is probably 50 points higher than Obama's. Romney and Obama would be a bit more even, but I have never seen any evidence that Obama's as smart as his supporters like to say. Sure, he has a nice speaking style, much is made of the president's rhetorical gifts. This is the sort of thing that can be credited only by people who think that a command of English syntax is a mark of great intellectual distinction. It isn't.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 17, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1089 times:
I'd say that the available campaign cash for the other candidates will be drying up rapidly outside of Ron Paul, or anyone else who wants to make a statement to draw the eventual campaign platform to their desired direction....Ron Paul will carry on with his campaign, although I'd like to see him at the convention this time....I'd say that plenty of people saw what happens when you split the base of the party and make enough people not want to go to the polls....Democrats and Republicans should have both learned this lesson over the last few elections. I am certain that the Republicans all agree that four more years of President Obama is not something any of them want. I can argue with certainty that a Romney administration will take a pro-business stance on most issues, and be more concerned with individual liberty than with promising "fairness" and entitlements with other peoples money.
Romney seems to be the very definition of a scumbag (insert proper emoticon to reduce confusion here)...married to the same woman for all this time with nary a whiff of scandal/infidelity, run successful businesses (I know...how dare he?), rescued the Salt Lake Olympics, been a Republican governor in a state where it's difficult for Republicans to get elected, donated 16% of his annual income last year to charities (oh, but wait...a lot of them were religious...that doesn't count, does it?).....yeah...he's a real scumbag.
The biggest real complaint the Republicans have with this guy is that he may not be conservative enough for the base to get really excited, and he appeals to a broader range of people in the middle.........
Quoting BN747 (Reply 10): OWS's new poster boy as the weather starts to turn towards favorable demonstration season.
Fair weather fans....typical kid stuff....they'll be their own persons as long as someone is paying their bills, and the weathers nice....if they really meant what they say they'd be toughing it out in the winter and really causing havoc....
Quoting Revelation (Reply 15): I guess we'll find out how electable a 1%er is in this economic climate.
Yeah...the whole class warfare thing is going to really be brought to a head in this election...
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 576 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1082 times:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 17): Romney seems to be the very definition of a scumbag (insert proper emoticon to reduce confusion here)...married to the same woman for all this time with nary a whiff of scandal/infidelity, run successful businesses (I know...how dare he?), rescued the Salt Lake Olympics, been a Republican governor in a state where it's difficult for Republicans to get elected, donated 16% of his annual income last year to charities (oh, but wait...a lot of them were religious...that doesn't count, does it?).....yeah...he's a real scumbag.
I don't have an issue with Romney's business acumen/personal wealth myself. I just don't personally feel that his typical model of restructuring companies is well suited to the job of president. But like I said before, it's not really my choice, what with my being a Democrat.
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1079 times:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 17): Republican governor in a state where it's difficult for Republicans to get elected,
In which state he instituted mandatory health care..
Quoting dl021 (Reply 17):
Yeah...the whole class warfare thing is going to really be brought to a head in this election.
Yes,. it was brought up FIRST by the GOP.
"Jan. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Newt Gingrich, accusing Republican presidential primary opponent Mitt Romney of being a “fundamentally dishonest” tool of Wall Street, pledged to stop big banking firms such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. from “rigging the game"
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 20, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1069 times:
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 18):
I don't have an issue with Romney's business acumen/personal wealth myself. I just don't personally feel that his typical model of restructuring companies is well suited to the job of president. But like I said before, it's not really my choice, what with my being a Democrat.
Actually it's quite fitting. We have a government that is like GM 4 years ago - Too much costs, not enough revenue. Too many employees who are overpaid (especially benefits). huge bureacracy with up to 100 duplicate commissions, departments etc who might have jurisdiction on one issue (school lunches for example).
I think we need someone who can recognize the problem and start slashing and burning. In his SOTU speech, Obama is going the other way - he proposed new programs, new bureaucracies. It's as if GM announced 4 years ago that that in response to depressed sales and mounting losses, they were establishing a new managerial department in a brand new building.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 576 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1066 times:
If the government was a for-profit business, I'd be more inclined to agree. But while efficient, lean government is a laudable goal, it's not the only goal government should have and at the moment I don't really mind it taking a back seat.
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1052 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I think we need someone who can recognize the problem and start slashing and burning.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 23, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1046 times:
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 21): If the government was a for-profit business, I'd be more inclined to agree. But while efficient, lean government is a laudable goal, it's not the only goal government should have and at the moment I don't really mind it taking a back seat.
We have gotten too used to thinking that way - that if we downsize the government we would be increasing unemployment.
But government workers do not produce any value. Government is like the G&A in a company like GM. G&A are the accountants, the janitors, the HR administrators. Sure, we need some (as few as possible), but they are not the ones who create value - which in the case of GM would be the engineers, the factory workers, the designers.
in the US economy, the private sector are the engineers, factory workers. The government is HR, Administration, accounting and legal departments. We need some of them, but it is utterly useless and counterproductive for them to be overstaffed.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1040 times:
Quoting mt99 (Reply 22): Isnt that Obama did with GM?
"GM Claims Number One Sales Crown -- Again"
Check their stock prices. GM is trading at little more than half the value from just a year ago, but yes things should be improving. I want to see where their revenue growth comes from, and we won't know that for another couple of months when financials are published. I know that GM has lost about 25% of their non-truck car market share in the US in the past few years, so I am really curious where it's coming from. It would be funny if they are publicly crediting it to Green cars like the Volt and in reality it's from the big, smelly truck division...
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 25, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1059 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
Awwww man...I wanted see Gingrich 'rip Obama to shreds' in the Presidential Debates (yeah, like that was gonna ever happen)
I heard a report the other day about how Romney (and most candidates, including Obama) will spend days in mock debates, practicing against debate coaches who throw every imaginable question at them. They memorize stock responses to known questions. On the other hand Gingrich never does this - his idea of debate preparation is getting up, coffee, toast, and go to the debate. He answers off the top of his head. That requires intelligence
Yeah, like it worked so well in the last round of debates...virtually no one knew he was present.
Quoting dl021 (Reply 17): Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
OWS's new poster boy as the weather starts to turn towards favorable demonstration season.
Fair weather fans....typical kid stuff....they'll be their own persons as long as someone is paying their bills, and the weathers nice....if they really meant what they say they'd be toughing it out in the winter and really causing havoc....
Ummmm... yeah, risk your health to prove your dedication to political points - not the best idea in the drawer.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 26, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1053 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
Yeah, like it worked so well in the last round of debates...virtually no one knew he was present.
He can have bad days too. But he has had a lot more good debates than bad ones. Where he has stumbled is when he started to "go negative" and attack Romney. To be fair he stated months ago that he never wanted to conduct a negative campaign but was forced to after the Romney camp started slinging mud - and the facts seem to support that. He is much, much better at explaining policy questions rather than being an attack dog.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8202 posts, RR: 48 Reply 27, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1059 times:
I disagree Gingrich has substance. He has displayed remarkably little substance, but I'll give him credit where its due: his expertise in dodging questions, appealing to emotions, and demagoguing. He is the epitome of what is wrong with politicians. I rather see Obama for another 4 years than Gingrich for a possible 8.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Yeah, like it worked so well in the last round of debates...virtually no one knew he was present.
He can have bad days too.
LOL....yeah right!
A critical moment like that was the time to be off your game... look where it has gotten him just as he was gaining traction. This was a costly moment to allow a couple bad performances to sink your ship.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27): but I'll give him credit where its due: his expertise in dodging questions, appealing to emotions, and demagoguing. He is the epitome of what is wrong with politicians.
Exactly his strong suit, dodging questions, striking emotional chords and demagogging .. but I wish he'd won FLA.
And Willard? ... the more I hear of him and Bain Capital, images of Carl Icahn continue to formulate...yep the guy that destroyed TWA.
The GOP is gonna try to pass off a political version of Carl Icahn as worthy of being President. Just ask any former TWA employees how well that worked out for them?
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 29, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1021 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20): I think we need someone who can recognize the problem and start slashing and burning. In his SOTU speech, Obama is going the other way - he proposed new programs, new bureaucracies. It's as if GM announced 4 years ago that that in response to depressed sales and mounting losses, they were establishing a new managerial department in a brand new building.
I suppose the following didn't register with you just two weeks ago. Not a surprise since it did not register with many:
Quote:
President Barack Obama’s request for authority to streamline U.S. executive agencies was greeted with skepticism from congressional Republicans while Democrats questioned elements of his reorganization plan.
The president said yesterday he wants to be able to undertake any consolidation that would save money and shrink government, subject to a “fast-track” vote of approval or disapproval by Congress in 90 days.
He said his first action would be replacing the Commerce Department with a yet unnamed agency that folds in the U.S. Trade Representative, the Export-Import Bank, the Overseas Private Investment Corp., the Trade and Development Agency and the Small Business Administration.
“The government we have is not the government that we need,” Obama said yesterday at the White House. “Our economy has fundamentally changed -- as has the world -- but our government, our agencies, have not.”
Seems it's easy to talk about more efficient government, but as soon as you try to reduce the number of agencies, we hear talk of bureaucratic behemoths, especially from the congresscritters whose power would be reduced:
Quote:
“Taking USTR, one of the most efficient agencies that is a model of how government can and should work, and making it just another corner of a new bureaucratic behemoth would hurt American exports and hinder American job creation,” Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, a Democrat, and House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp, a Republican, said in a joint statement.
Schwab also was critical of moving the USTR. The trade representative’s office is “one of the few things that actually works,” she said.
Interesting how the congresscritters make the presumption that the combined agencies would adapt the worst practices of the combined entities instead of the best, sigh.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 30, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1003 times:
Seems it's easy to talk about more efficient government, but as soon as you try to reduce the number of agencies, we hear talk of bureaucratic behemoths, especially from the congresscritters whose power would be reduced:
Well, yeah - the Republicans don't believe a word of it, and the the last thing the Democrats want is an efficient government, so sure there would be a lot of skepticism. But I call on the GOP to call his bluff. Pass bills that genuinely would streamline the federal government and dare Obama to reject it in an election year.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 28): And Willard? ... the more I hear of him and Bain Capital, images of Carl Icahn continue to formulate...yep the guy that destroyed TWA.
WTH does Romney have to do with Icahn?
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3386 posts, RR: 7 Reply 31, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 977 times:
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
Looking ahead I can't help but wonder how much longer until Mr. Santorum calls it quits. Assuming that the Santorum supporters would rather support Mr. Gingrich, if we add the Santorum votes to Gingrich then it becomes a far tighter race at the front with Rep. Paul a distant third. Such a scenario would probably result in a more focused race between the moderate side of the GOP and the more extreme/conservative side…making the race that much more interesting for those of us looking from the outside.
According to recent surveys, if Santorum were to get out of the race, his supporters would be more likely to support Romney than Gingrich, where Gingrich supporters would be more likely to support Santorum than Romney if Gingrich got out.
That being said, I don't see any candidate getting out before Super Tuesday. Santorum is leading the polls in both Ohio and Missouri, and Missouri is next week. Santorum also does well in Colorado and so does Ron Paul. And because the delegates are proportional in most of those states, no one is going to amass a huge lead. So then it goes to super tuesday. The race I am eager to watch on Super Tuesday is Virginia. Only Paul and Romney will be on the ballot there. I think most VA voters know that Ron Paul has no real chance of becoming the nominee. The question becomes, do the Gingrich-Santorum voters cast a protest vote for Ron Paul in that primary to prevent Romney from picking up delegates in that state.
This will go on for a while. If Super Tuesday isn't real decisive, this is going to last a long time.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 32, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 971 times:
Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
Isnt that Obama did with GM?
"GM Claims Number One Sales Crown -- Again"
No no no. If it's good, Obama didn't do it (GM, OBL, economic recovery, favorable jobs report, etc.). If it's bad, then Obama did it, even if it happened before he was in office (ban on incandescent bulbs, economic crash, budget crises... all his fault even though he had nothing to do with any of them).
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26): He can have bad days too. But he has had a lot more good debates than bad ones. Where he has stumbled is when he started to "go negative" and attack Romney. To be fair he stated months ago that he never wanted to conduct a negative campaign but was forced to after the Romney camp started slinging mud - and the facts seem to support that. He is much, much better at explaining policy questions rather than being an attack dog.
I'm surprised you would like Gingrich. He's a big time fiscal liberal in that he LOVES government spending. What's a few hundred billion on a moon base? Not to mention the amount of security and military spending he wants to do. And the best part is that he doesn't want to pay for it; just tack it on to the debt. He hasn't said that outright, but there is no realistic amount of spending cutting that can be achieved to pay for all he wants to do.
On the other hand, he's all for intrusive FEDERAL legislation over personal and private behavior. Marriage amendment is just the start of it. Bigger and bigger and bigger guvmint! And then he wants to be able to somehow separate criminal law from terrorism law. Under criminal law, there's a bill of rights; under terrorism law, there isn't. Of course, the trouble with that is how you define what is a crime and what is terrorism. The definition of "terrorism" is pretty darned broad. You could argue that driving 55MPH in the left lane is terrorism under some definitions (disrupting transport).
Sorry, but I'm really surprised. His positions have absolutely no internal consistency. For a man as book smart as he is, he's really pretty stupid when it comes to logic and reasoning skill.
I figured you'd support Paul a lot more. At least his policies, while I might disagree with them, are internally consistent and logical.
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 33, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 953 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): I'm surprised you would like Gingrich. He's a big time fiscal liberal in that he LOVES government spending
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 34, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 912 times:
In other news..
Romney: The poor are doing great! No need to pay any attention to them.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 35, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 908 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): I'm surprised you would like Gingrich. He's a big time fiscal liberal in that he LOVES government spending.
I was actually thinking about this earlier. Let's go back to the Tea Party rallies, the very first ones. I don't care what people say, those initial ones were peaceful, legitimate, not-crazy, and their message was clear--less taxes, less government, less spending.
Now fast forward to today. Either the TP changed entirely, or the TPers have no idea how to pick a candidate based on their beliefs. All the "TP" candidates were Perry, Bachmann, Santorum, and Gingrich. But they each have big government ideas, such as intrusion into the bedroom (anti-gay, DADT, etc,) spending projects on THEIR stuff (moon base, a bunch of aid to random countries including Pakistan so they don't "let nukes fall into terrorist hands, etc.)
I honestly think that the TP did in fact change--it got hijacked by the big government / too-religious right. All the candidates seem to be that way and most TP citizens seem to be spouting off those ideas, kinda making the TP's ideals oxymorons (small government with big government powers??)
So really, I think the real original, pre-hijacked TP candidate would be Paul (even with my personal bias aside.) I guess it's a TPer's right to like a candidate and the ideals of that candidate, but saying they're pro small-government, IMO, is misleading or even a lie
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 36, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 912 times:
To quote Rick Perry: "They're vultures. They're sitting out there on the tree limb waiting for the company to get sick and then they swoop in. They eat the carcass. They leave with that and they leave the skeleton."
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 37, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 899 times:
Quoting mt99 (Reply 34): Romney: The poor are doing great! No need to pay any attention to them.
I saw this. I think it's very deceptive titling. I think Mitt could've worded it better, but he acknowledges that they have a safety net, and that the net has holes he wants to fix. You may disagree with how many more/less safety nets we need for the poor, but I think this comment as poorly worded but harmless. And I'm not even a Romney supporter!
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 38, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 897 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
I'll note that Paul (and I think Santorum) didn't even campaign in FL since it was winner take all. Paul is focusing on caucuses, probably won't win, but it'll give him a bigger voice at the convention hopefully...
The Paul campaign is really trying to win some delegates here in the Washington Caucus.
Quoting flymia (Reply 5): Anyway glad Mitt won, he is our only shot of getting Obama out of office.
This election isn't about electing someone into office its about electing someone out of office.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 15): FL GOP voters are not voting for a candidate they are enthusiastic about - turnout was down from the last primary.
This should concern anyone pulling for the GOP candidate. Conservatives need a big showing in the general election to vote out Obama and without a charismatic candidate people may not show up to vote against Obama.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16): Hardly a surprise. Gingrich is more fiscally conservative than Romney, and that's where the Tea Party will go.
But, given the choice in November they'll choose the lesser of two evils.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 39, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 849 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 36): Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
WTH does Romney have to do with Icahn?
To quote Rick Perry: "They're vultures. They're sitting out there on the tree limb waiting for the company to get sick and then they swoop in. They eat the carcass. They leave with that and they leave the skeleton."
Swoosh, that's Carl Icahn for ya'...and Willard at Bain Capital.
Oh he knew what I was getting at... he's just trying to play dumb.
StarAC17 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 2615 posts, RR: 4 Reply 40, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 840 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): On the other hand, he's all for intrusive FEDERAL legislation over personal and private behavior. Marriage amendment is just the start of it. Bigger and bigger and bigger guvmint! And then he wants to be able to somehow separate criminal law from terrorism law.
He also wants to send US marshalls over activist judges which I assume are the ones whom don't agree with him. Also why are activist judges only liberal, aren't the judges on the Supreme court activist as well for passing individual freedom's to companies and not capping political donations for individuals.
Also I think Newt will try to skirt the legislative process more than any other president in History.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 38): This election isn't about electing someone into office its about electing someone out of office.
The democrats tried this in 2004 and it failed miserably and independents will just stick with the guy in office. People don't like the I'm not him attitude, you need to present to the electorate with hope and a positive message. Take a lesson of your lord and saviour Ronald Reagan (whom would likely be called a commie by today's GOP)
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 41, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 824 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 39): Swoosh, that's Carl Icahn for ya'...and Willard at Bain Capital.
Oh he knew what I was getting at... he's just trying to play dumb.
I would never try to beat you at your own game.
Have you bothered to find out A) How many companies were saved with Bain investment, and B) How many companies folded in spite of Bain investment. And how many jobs in each category? I'll bet you haven't. You've just swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker like a lemming.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 42, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 813 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41): Have you bothered to find out A) How many companies were saved with Bain investment, and B) How many companies folded in spite of Bain investment. And how many jobs in each category? I'll bet you haven't.
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 43, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 797 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41): Have you bothered to find out A) How many companies were saved with Bain investment, and B) How many companies folded in spite of Bain investment. And how many jobs in each category? I'll bet you haven't.
Well you certainly haven't. Growing companies that export jobs abroad doesn't help the nation.
So go ahead. list the companies that Bain hasn't ripped off and show us which ones contributed to US jobs (Nain themselves denied Williards numbers of job created).
List the companies that are still hear today and added Jobs to the American Job Market. And I'll list the Bain ripoffs and failures... like Dade International, which went bankrupt after Bain bought it out -- and Bain still made $345 million dollars.
Bain scored huge paydays ny ripping off weak companies, this is what LBOs were all about back then.
Willard & Bain made it's money basically selling crappy companies to investors, much like some companies on Wall Street made money selling crappy mortgage backed securities to investors. Bain Capital's business is to eat up other companies for profit. They are the ultimate example of predatory capitalismÂ. Bain produces nothing, doesn't create jobs, and they don't develop any new technologiÂes or techniques that might invigorate the economy.
All Bain Capital does is create profits out of nothing, using money they haven't earned themselves to buy up companies so they can deprive other people of their livelihoodÂs. And they do their darned best to avoid taxes or otherwise contribute to the country that gives them the environmenÂt in which to conduct their business.
Bush had an MBA from Harvard and ran several failed business - Zapada oil, baseball
Cheney -was the CEO of Hallibuton
Treasury Sec Hank Paulson was the head of Goldman Sachs.
AND THE WHOLE ECONOMY COLLAPSED ON THEIR WATCH!
Yeah, we need more predatory experience in the White House
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 44, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 790 times:
No, but 1) I have plenty of personal experience with private equity firms such as Bain and their management, and 2) Bain was top-rated among firms which were seeking PE help - they had the pick of the crop, like AMC Entertainment, Aspen Education Group, Brookstone, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel Communications, Domino's Pizza, DoubleClick, Dunkin' Donuts, D&M Holdings, Guitar Center, Hospital Corporation of America (HCA), Sealy, The Sports Authority, Staples, Toys "R" Us, Warner Music Group and The Weather Channel. Nothing is certain in business, and they've had some failures too, but from I've read their successes (sick company becoming profitable and growing) outnumber their failures 8-to-1. That is better than any PE firm I have dealt with.
The propaganda that Bain has somehow destroyed more jobs than it created is simply preposterous, unlike a true scavenger operation such as Carl Icahn.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 45, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 782 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Well you certainly haven't. Growing companies that export jobs abroad doesn't help the nation.
Well yeah, because of out tax structure. Apple has over $50 billion in cash stuck overseas because if they bring it back to the US, they get whacked with a 35% tax rate. Remember that that money has already been fully taxed in the country where it was earned - the US had nothing to do with it. The US should be happy to let that money in tax-free so that it can be used, spent, invested, but not this administration. So instead it is being invested in European or Asian stock markets and we don't get any benefit from it. Top marks, US government
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43): List the companies that are still hear today and added Jobs to the American Job Market. And I'll list the Bain ripoffs and failures... like Dade International, which went bankrupt after Bain bought it out -- and Bain still made $345 million dollars.
I just provided a list above. Where is yours?
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43): Willard & Bain made it's money basically selling crappy companies to investors, much like some companies on Wall Street made money selling crappy mortgage backed securities to investors
Where is the evidence that buyers overpaid?
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43): They are the ultimate example of predatory capitalismÂ. Bain produces nothing, doesn't create jobs, and they don't develop any new technologiÂes or techniques that might invigorate the economy.
And all of Bain's profits get sucked up into a giant mattress someplace. You really need to stop reading Marx (HuffPost, MSNBC, Daily Kos, MediaMatters - all the same thing)
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43): All Bain Capital does is create profits out of nothing
Effort and work is nothing?
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
BN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5007 posts, RR: 55 Reply 46, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 770 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44): The propaganda that Bain has somehow destroyed more jobs than it created is simply preposterous, unlike a true scavenger operation such as Carl Icahn.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#46227253
Willard in Las Vegas last October at Home Foreclosure Seminar " Don't try and stop the foreclosure process, just let it run it's course and, let it hit the bottom then allow investors to buy them, get renters in there and let it come back up."
THAT is Carl Icahn speak to the letter! That's exactly the mindset he had when he started Bain.
He perfectly understands how to cut people who are struggling completely out of the picture and let people fall. His " I'm not worried about the very poor, we have a safety net for them'." shows just clueless and removed this guy is. He has no idea what the safety net is and he's offering no solutions to anything.
Mitt Romney, running for the Republican nomination for president, founded Bain Capital Equity fund and led the company from 1984 to 1998. This fund, like other private equity funds, pools investors’ money to engage in leveraged buyout of companies. They usually go after badly managed companies and sometimes healthy companies, which they hope to reorganize, laying off employees, unloading and/or reducing liabilities like health benefits and pension funds of employees and retirees, to make businesses more profitable and then sell them to the highest bidder. Many businesses also go bankrupt while under their management or after they are sold. As Professor Ludovic Phalippou reports in The Journal Economic Perspectives (Winter 2009), borrowed money is usually three times the investors’ money in leveraged buyouts. Most equity funds unload businesses sooner than later, in less than two years on the average, according to Professor Phalippou.
Most likely they would call their practice creative destruction. The Wall Street Journal, January 9, 2012, reports that under Romney’s leadership at Bain Capital, out of 77 businesses under Bain’s management, 22% of businesses filed for bankruptcy reorganization and/or went out of business after eight years, “sometimes with substantial job losses.”
That's FAR cry from your 8-to-1 ratio... that's 22% failure rate..imagine the 747 with that kind of performance rating.
In this episode, Leslie Marshall talks with Dave Foster, Executive Director of the Blue/Green Alliance and past Director of the United Steelworkers (USW). They began with a discussion about Bain Capital, which was co-founded by Mitt Romney, and how it destroyed a steel company in Kansas City, MO, caused 750 people to lose their jobs, their severance pay and parts of their health care and pensions.
All you need to know - Mitt the Movie, the King of Bain : When Mitt Came to Town - 28mins http://www.kingofbain.com/
Opening Line: Mitt Romney was not a capitalist during his reign at Bain. He was a predatory corporate raider.
Not for the faint of heart...
What they pulled on the DDI Company was Carl Icahn-ish EVERY step of the way. And in the film you see how they did it repeatedly..over and over again.
What you're gonna see in this film is a trail of destruction across the US, these people are middle America, they are voters, Romney has to now go back and face these people... wish him luck, because his Bain chickens are coming home to roost.
Whether you like it or not, Willard is Carl Icahn incarnate. The badge of honor and pride you are trying to bestow upon him stands on a solid foundation of financial ruin and destruction of 1000s of American livelyhoods.. all at the expense of his personal gain. Did he make more people wealthy than the number he destroyed is going to be dogged question on his back.
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 1639 posts, RR: 1 Reply 47, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 761 times:
Question: if the November vote favors Romney, what will become of the US if the only reason he won was because he could? Where are this man's ideas? And no, I'm not being sarcastic on this one.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4845 posts, RR: 7 Reply 48, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 742 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45): Well yeah, because of out tax structure. Apple has over $50 billion in cash stuck overseas because if they bring it back to the US, they get whacked with a 35% tax rate. Remember that that money has already been fully taxed in the country where it was earned - the US had nothing to do with it
You seem to be forgetting that the tax paid in the other country is credited before US tax is paid. So any money Apple Australia repatrates comes with a 1% tax credit, since Apple has already paid 36% tax on it! (I know it's not that simple and there are things like transfer pricing, but you lose credability for you argument if you ignore it.)
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 49, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 709 times:
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 47): Question: if the November vote favors Romney, what will become of the US if the only reason he won was because he could? Where are this man's ideas?
We're not very big on ideas here in the US.
Compare and contrast Willard and Newt.
Newt has lots of ideas, but many of them are scary, especially to certain (different) blocks of the electorate. That is a big part of why people say he is unelectable (not to mention his scandalous love life and financial dealings).
Willard is a flip-flopper in the mold of John Kerry. When he's governor of a liberal northeast state, mandatory health care is good. When he's trying to win the votes of conservatives, mandatory health care is bad, even though it would improve the bottom lines of both capitalist hospitals (by getting rid of the freeloaders that capitalistic despise) and capitalist insurance companies (by forcing more people to buy insurance).
When it comes to ideas, Willard is no Ronald Reagan. He's the name and face of a well-oiled political machine. That's why people seize on the moments that give us glimpses of his true character, for instance when he said "I like to be able to fire people".
Barack Obama is also the name and face of a well-oiled political machine. He got elected mainly by chanting one word: "Change". He didn't say much about what he'd change, because that would also scare various blocks of the electorate and make it harder for him to get elected.
I'm not so sure it's all that different for any of the western democracies. What are the "big ideas" of Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron, et al? Or are they just the names and faces of well-oiled political machines?
StarAC17 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 2615 posts, RR: 4 Reply 50, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 698 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43): Well you certainly haven't. Growing companies that export jobs abroad doesn't help the nation.
The one thing that everyone forgets is there is no way an American can compete with a Chinese worker in anyway even though an American if IIRC can produce six times what a Chinese worker produces in the same amount of time. The simple reason is that even if you paid an American minimum wage to make an Iphone you can pay a Chinese worker $1/hour and have them work 20hrs/day and there is no one to call you on it. Now if you paid an American worker that they would do what is in their best interests and take welfare because it pays more and that is acting in their self interests.
Taxes won't fix this because even if we reduced corporate taxes to 0 this advantage will still exist and corporations are there to maximize profits.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 51, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 685 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45): Well yeah, because of out tax structure. Apple has over $50 billion in cash stuck overseas because if they bring it back to the US, they get whacked with a 35% tax rate.
Are you really playing the "sympathy for Apple" card?
Given that they manufacture almost nothing in the US?
Do you really think that lack of cash is the reason why Apple isn't going on a hiring spree in the US?
Don't you know the reason Apple has so much cash abroad is because they intentionally park it in foreign tax havens?
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 52, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 680 times:
Quoting BN747 (Reply 46): Willard in Las Vegas last October at Home Foreclosure Seminar " Don't try and stop the foreclosure process, just let it run it's course and, let it hit the bottom then allow investors to buy them, get renters in there and let it come back up."
THAT is Carl Icahn speak to the letter! That's exactly the mindset he had when he started Bain.
That's basic macroeconomics. The more you try to hold back the dam, the further you dig yourself into the hole. The simple, undeniable fact is that the US housing market is over supplied by something like 10-20 MILLION homes. You can A) Bulldoze 20 million homes - obviously that won't happen, B) Stop all federal programs which are attempting to support housing prices and sales, and let the chips fall where they may, and C) Continue to play the Little Dutch Boy with his finger in the dam.
Option C is what we are doing today - it does nothing to fix the problem, it just spends a lot of money and alleviates short term pain, but the result is that, as the CBO testified 2 days ago, the economy will continue to be in the crapper for the foreseeable future - no improvement, GDP growth of around 1% (less than population growth) and basically we're all screwed until the housing industry tanks again, which is inevitable.
A and/or B will result in a massive amount of pain, short term. The economy will contract for 2, maybe 3 quarters before stabilizing. But then, guess what - We are free of the burden! The economy can start growing again, unfettered by dead weight of idle assets and counterproductive housing stimulus (which is basically all that Fannie/Freddie/CRA are).
This is all very, very basic stuff, and Romney's challenge is to make people understand it.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 46): Most likely they would call their practice creative destruction. The Wall Street Journal, January 9, 2012, reports that under Romney’s leadership at Bain Capital, out of 77 businesses under Bain’s management, 22% of businesses filed for bankruptcy reorganization and/or went out of business after eight years, “sometimes with substantial job losses.”
That's FAR cry from your 8-to-1 ratio... that's 22% failure rate..imagine the 747 with that kind of performance rating.
OK, more like 5 to 1. Still, that gives a 78% success rate. Those are betting odds. Can we assume 78 jobs created for every 22 jobs lost?
Quoting gemuser (Reply 48):
You seem to be forgetting that the tax paid in the other country is credited before US tax is paid. So any money Apple Australia repatrates comes with a 1% tax credit, since Apple has already paid 36% tax on it! (I know it's not that simple and there are things like transfer pricing, but you lose credibility for you argument if you ignore it.)
I haven't gone into the details, but my understanding is that any credits have already been taken into account, and that Apple faces a $10-15 billion tax bill if they bring those funds here. But you avoid the question - why should the US tax system tax earnings outside their territory? We should be happy if Apple makes money overseas, brings that money back to the US and reinvests it here (or simply pays everyone a big bonus). We should make it tax-free. It's found money as far as the US economy is concerned! But no, instead we force Apple to invest in Chinese companies. Dumb.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 53, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 672 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 52): OK, more like 5 to 1. Still, that gives a 78% success rate. Those are betting odds. Can we assume 78 jobs created for every 22 jobs lost?
No,you cant.
A single "success" might be a 10 person company ending up as an 8 person company with more profits. Or a 10 person company growing to 15 people.
A single "failure" might be a 10,000 em[employes company closing down with 10,000 job losses.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20144 posts, RR: 57 Reply 55, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 651 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 51): Are you really playing the "sympathy for Apple" card?
Given that they manufacture almost nothing in the US?
Do you really think that lack of cash is the reason why Apple isn't going on a hiring spree in the US?
Don't you know the reason Apple has so much cash abroad is because they intentionally park it in foreign tax havens?
Reality is far simpler:
– Apple's manufacturing is only a tiny fraction of their total expenses – there would be very little to gain for the USA to bring those jobs "back home" (from the american point of view)
– By far most of Apple's actual value creation is done in Cupertino, very nuch on american soil.
– And yes, they actually are on a hiring spree, just no low-paying manufacturing jobs, but primarily well-paying jobs in development and moderately paying jobs in retail and support
– the source of all the cash Apple has abroad is simply that that's where they're selling their products to paying customers; taxation of foreign income has always been a matter of some dispute, not just with Apple and not just in the US. And it will continue to be a topic with lots of lobbying and lots of political (in-)fighting
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 56, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 637 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 55): Apple's manufacturing is only a tiny fraction of their total expenses – there would be very little to gain for the USA to bring those jobs "back home" (from the american point of view)
You're smart enough to know that measuring by a fraction of expenses works pretty well given that Apple currently pays peanuts for labor.
The gain, of course, would be more employed Americans, less need for unemployment checks, thus less need for high repatriation tax rates.
In the context of this thread, a major concern of the electorate (outside of those who spend their time fighting culture wars, etc) is jobs.
Not Steve Jobs, but actual jobs.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 55): By far most of Apple's actual value creation is done in Cupertino, very nuch on american soil.
But not job creation, which happens in Foxconn's factories.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 55): And yes, they actually are on a hiring spree, just no low-paying manufacturing jobs, but primarily well-paying jobs in development and moderately paying jobs in retail and support
Which supports my point that Apple doesn't need repatriation.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 55): the source of all the cash Apple has abroad is simply that that's where they're selling their products to paying customers; taxation of foreign income has always been a matter of some dispute, not just with Apple and not just in the US. And it will continue to be a topic with lots of lobbying and lots of political (in-)fighting
You're smart enough to know there's nothing simple about it. Apple and other corporations deliberately set up subsidiaries in foreign tax havens and slosh money through them, so a chunk of the profit from the US-designed iPhone you bought in Germany is quite likely sitting in Ireland or the Netherlands.
My main point in the context of this thread is that the electorate as a whole here isn't impressed by Apple's value creation (aka wealth creation), nor by Bain Capital's wealth creation, because it's not creating jobs for the electorate as a whole. It's largely benefiting the investing class, of which Willard Romney is a prime example.
In short, propping up Apple and Bain Capital of examples of how the future should go is a losing proposition for the GOP.
Personally, I hope they are too dumb to figure it out, and keep presuming the country is loaded with star-struck millionaire wannabees instead of people with grave concerns about how they'll be getting by in the future.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 36437 posts, RR: 86 Reply 57, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 633 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 49): for instance when he said "I like to be able to fire people".
Heck we mine as well elect Donald Trump.
The choices for 2012 really, really sucks!
The choice between Obama and Romney is like choosing AIDS vs. cancer.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 58, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 629 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 56): My main point in the context of this thread is that the electorate as a whole here isn't impressed by Apple's value creation (aka wealth creation), nor by Bain Capital's wealth creation, because it's not creating jobs for the electorate as a whole. It's largely benefiting the investing class, of which Willard Romney is a prime example.
But that's the point - it only benefits the investors (who don't particularly care if the money is repatriated or not, as long as it is consolidated on the Balance Sheet) because of our stupid, greedy tax laws. Let that money come in tax free (or at a nominal interest rate of, say, 5%, all that money would come flooding in, and would be available to be reinvested in the US rather than on the DAX.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 56): Personally, I hope they are too dumb to figure it out, and keep presuming the country is loaded with star-struck millionaire wannabees instead of people with grave concerns about how they'll be getting by in the future.
So basically you are saying that the 'American Dream' is dead.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 8076 posts, RR: 13 Reply 59, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 583 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 58): Let that money come in tax free (or at a nominal interest rate of, say, 5%, all that money would come flooding in, and would be available to be reinvested in the US rather than on the DAX.
That would only bring it into corporate coffers. Whether or not it'd create US jobs is quite debatable.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 58): So basically you are saying that the 'American Dream' is dead.
Interesting question. Do you really equate the American Dream to wanting to be a millionaire? Even if you do like Willard did, and screw over other people to get there? I sure hope not.
For me, the 'American Dream' is more about having a middle class lifestyle, and it's clear to me that the middle class is being wiped out these days. On one hand you have the 'haves', and the 'have-wannabees', and on the other hand you have the 'have nots', and in between you have a gap that is ever widening.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17876 posts, RR: 59 Reply 60, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 577 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 59): For me, the 'American Dream' is more about having a middle class lifestyle
Not everyone can be a millionaire. Even if everyone wanted to, society couldn't support it - there needs to be some income disparity, otherwise you've got socialism (and it's not any better if everyone is a millionaire under socialism, since that just means that the dollar is worth a lot less).
If the "American Dream" is about being a millionaire, then it's not just dead, it never existed in the first place. We really need to stop denigrating people who work in jobs that need to be done but still don't make a lot of money, and just want to be able to provide for their families.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8202 posts, RR: 48 Reply 61, posted (3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 530 times:
“I’m a little Ron Paulish… to take a political slant. I think both parties have basically done the same thing and they would complain relative to each other, but both parties, you know, have followed a policy that hasn’t promoted long term investment in the United States and I think ultimately we need to produce things as opposed to paper…” - Bill Gross 2/1/12
"Endorsement-ish", but a very heavy weight one nonetheless.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
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